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same we all always use in real life (no would ever say/write "I check on my Bronze twice a day" without adding "turkey", unless they were 100% certain that the listeners/readers would always already understand one meant a turkey. WP is a context in which 100% of the time we must make the assumption with our article titles that some (probably supermajority) percentage of readers will not understand it. "Bronze Turkey", capitalizing "Turkey" as part of the formal/"official" breed name would be a "made up name" and it's not being proposed here by anyone.
1756:, I will personally stick with "weak oppose" here despite broadly agreeing with arguments below. It is also worth commenting that the article may need to be updated to give reference to the various Bronze turkeys including mentioned by PigeonIP above. (I have also previously objected to the use of the reference source as being to a very specialist organisation and not really of relevance to an encyclopedia). General usage is of more relevance as demonstrated through Web and other internet searches:
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1952:: Indeed, yet this is precisely the kind of naming the same editor is agitating for in a large number of concurrent RM discussions that would affect many hundreds of articles. Sadly, I think many of them are going to conclude as "no consensus" if more eyes are not brought to them, which is just going to necessitate them being individually re-listed one at a time for moving the names that agree with
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1660:(of all replacement) of parenthesis as unnecessary and in contravention to presentation of similar terms in other locations ... and yet disambiguation is still provided so the presence of brackets or not may, arguably, be that big of a deal. A sheep is still a sheep whether or not it has been placed in a pen. I think consideration may also be given to the writers of the articles."
1924:: This gets funnier at every instance. If I see a turkey and write "I saw a Bronze turkey" I will not mean the Bronze breed because I didn't state, "I see a Bronze (turkey). I suppose in speech I would have to say "I see a Bronze, parenthesis, turkey, parenthesis. How about simple English being the fact that a bronze turkey would be a particular colored turkey because the
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The DAD makes separate statistics pages on a country basis because that is how the stats are collected. That doesn't verify that, for instance, the Broad
Breasted Bronze in the U.S., England, and Australia are actually genetically distinct enough to merit separate articles. Sub-strains with peculiar
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This seems to contradict itself. If the bird can no longer reproduce without artificial insemination, how has it retained it's ability to reproduce naturally? Heritage turkeys require the ability to mate naturally with no intervention from humans, so the Bronze turkey would not be a heritage turkey
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there are other bronze turkey breeds in existence then perhaps a title like Bronze Turkey (traditional breed), Bronze (traditional turkey breed) or Bronze Turkey (US breed) might suit. The nom states that "There are a lot of other bronze turkeys out there". I would support turning "Bronze Turkey"
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disambiguation, seem to be the problem; see other screeds and proposals by same editor in all of these related RMs, where the incorrect idea is put forth that "Brozen turkey" (etc.) is a "made up name". It's not; its the reliable sourced breed name, "Bronze" followed by natural disambiguation, the
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policy, and the nomination doesn't even make sense: "There are a lot of other bronze turkeys out there." That's a reason to disambiguate at all or further, not to disambiguate parenthetically in particular, rather than naturally. Nom's suggested move would solve nothing at all, only make the title
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revert (which
Justlettersandnumbers already had agreed to not pursue, but is pursing anyway), were to proceed, it's just a putting back of the names to what they were before, on general principle, then leading directly to an on-the-merits discussion of what the names should be (and policy does not
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Due to their size, they have lost the ability to mate naturally, and Broad
Breasted Bronzes in existence today are maintained entirely by artificial insemination. Having retained the ability to reproduce naturally (among other traits), the Standard Bronze is considered to be a variety of heritage
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discussion is ongoing and I would have thought that this discussion could either have been presented as a bolt on to that discussion or could have made reference to that discussion in the opening text or could have waited for that discussion to run its course before presenting parallel arguments
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I do a fair number of page moves, mainly ones that are asserted to be non-controversial. I did not do a thorough review in this case, and subsequently saw that there is some controversy involving naming of animal breeds. I did not undertake a through review of the issue, and would defer to the
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to be two distinct breeds, the Broad
Breasted Bronze which is so frontally over-endowed that it can no longer reproduce naturally, and the Standard Bronze which more normally shaped, and still can. They are reported separately by both the United States and the UK (links on request). I suggest
1483:(if I say "I have a frizzle chicken" that can mean "I have a chicken with frizzle feathers" or "I have a chicken of the 'Frizzle' standardized breed"). The dispute (to the extent it is a real one) is between "Friesian chicken" and "Friesian (chicken)". The latter fails
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is an open question in such a case. If most turkey breed article names have "turkey" in them, it would be just as well to have them all be this way for predictability and clarity (the reason the "concision razor" essay got userspaced was that conciseness above other
1531:(on which, shockingly, we still have no article), which is a pan-European confederation of national poultry associations and is trying to rationalise some of this stuff; it's a difficult source to use but I believe it to be totally reliable.
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are not necessarily all genetically distinct – a turkey reported as "American Bronze" by Guyana has a good chance of being just that, not a separate breed; nevertheless, there are a lot of them. Steven, that German spreadsheet is from the
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I recommend that it be split into articles for each distinct variety that can be proven to be considered seperate. Arguing about Bronze turkey vs Bronze (turkey) is useless as both are confusing. At the very least there is room for
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To be frank I am skeptical of your assertion that there are so many other rare breeds or subtypes of Bronze turkey that are genetically distinct. One source (a spreadsheet in German no less) is not enough to back this up.
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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That would be potentially ambiguous with bronze metal from the U.S.A., American bronze artwork, U.S. bronze medals in sports, the U.S. military bronze star, things called "Bronze" from
America --
1592:, the second to a title that manages to muddle two different types of disambiguation in three words. Both will be restored to ordinary parenthetical disambiguation if the mass revert request at
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or regular disambiguation so as to link to more specific breeds and varieties. However, comment can be fairly made to the opening sentence of the article lead which reads: "The
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The words "Bronze" and "turkey" are not always butted together but when they are they are typically given the treatment as either "Bronze Turkey" or "bronze turkey".
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Ultimately search engine listings that read "Xx turkey - Knowledge, the 💕" do not differ greatly from listings that read "Xx (turkey) - Knowledge, the 💕".
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For me the strongest argument is that of consistency both with outside sources (other sources typically don't use parenthesis) and internally - the multi RM
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1261:Ähm, I am not talking about the Broad Breasted Bronze in different states. I am talking about different breeds. 5 of them in the UK alone... --
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names may merit mention in this article or stubs of their own, but that still doesn't verify that this article should be
American-specific.
1062:– Pleace move back to the breeds name. There are a lot of other bronze turkeys out there. Not just that one (American) breed. For example:
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would not be capitalized whereas the breed Bronze turkey would be and there would not be an article on a turkey that was bronze in color.
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here. While some useful issues have been raised as an indirect consequence of this discussion, a lot of it seems to be a waste of time.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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might not even need any disambiguation at all, since metals don't have wings and other livestock don't seem to be named "Bronze", but
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I also stick to view that I presented above: "A consistently used format should be adopted". My opposition here is dependent on the
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is not a valid reason with the matter at hand, because the article it about that one special breed, not any bronze turkey
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related articles on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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would then be the needed title. "Bronze turkey" and "Bronze (turkey)" would then become set indices --
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two character longer and twice as awkward. Nom doesn't seem to think that natural disambiguation
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I am not sure, if there are Czech and French bronze varieties of turkey as well
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makes a good point: the various bronze turkeys reported to
1444:. A consistently used format should be adopted. Pinging
1389:. Where did you ever get the idea I was voting for either
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Did you read my first comment? It clearly states that is
2007:(or would it be turkey?). Anyway, thats my two cents.
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splitting the article on those lines, to those titles.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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anyway, there is no disambiguation problem here; use
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This page is not part of the mass revert request at
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1715:moves are directly contradictory and violate other
1024:. No further edits should be made to this section.
2187:Clarification regarding a statement in the article
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2134:Animal genetic resources of the USSR, 16. Turkeys
1148:The listing of European Breeds and colours? The
1849:, then we'd parenthetically disambiguate it as
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1825:To address nom's specific examples, for which
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1845:. If the American one is never, ever called
1650:I should repeat my contribution to that page:
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1879:no rationale at all for moving this article
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1401:" is bad. (My IP address has rotated) --
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2005:American Mammoth Bronze Turkey
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2149:
2130:
2129:
2127:Norfolk Bronze
2124:
2119:
2099:Mammoth Bronze
2096:
2089:
2072:
2045:
2042:
2041:
2027:requested move
2021:
1981:
1980:
1972:
1919:
1918:
1909:
1893:if necessary.
1880:
1821:
1807:
1806:
1805:
1804:
1803:
1802:
1801:
1800:
1791:
1778:
1773:is a breed of
1743:
1676:
1668:
1661:
1658:(here as well)
1651:
1648:
1647:
1646:
1638:
1597:
1583:
1582:
1581:
1542:
1533:
1532:
1520:Steven Walling
1513:
1512:
1511:
1503:
1465:
1422:
1421:
1420:
1419:
1418:
1417:
1416:
1415:
1414:
1413:
1305:
1304:
1282:
1281:
1280:
1279:
1278:
1277:
1276:
1275:
1274:
1273:
1245:Steven Walling
1238:
1237:
1223:
1212:Norfolk Bronze
1201:
1198:Mammoth Bronze
1195:
1190:
1184:
1179:
1173:
1167:
1161:
1153:
1134:Steven Walling
1127:
1126:
1091:
1077:
1076:
1073:
1070:
1067:
1052:
1050:
1027:
1026:
1012:requested move
1006:
1004:
1003:Requested move
1001:
998:
997:
994:
993:
990:
989:
986:
985:
967:
966:
964:
963:
954:Add photos to
946:
924:
870:
840:
821:Cathartiformes
810:
784:
763:Gouldian finch
744:
718:
703:Vesper sparrow
688:
668:
666:
665:
654:
653:
648:
643:
638:
632:
629:
628:
616:
615:
608:Low-importance
604:
598:
597:
595:
579:this template.
575:Please do not
553:
552:
536:
524:
523:
521:Low‑importance
515:
503:
502:
499:
498:
495:
494:
485:
482:
481:
479:
478:
467:
461:
450:
439:
432:
406:
400:French cuisine
384:Top Importance
380:
328:Top Importance
323:
312:
311:
304:
299:
298:
288:
287:
282:
277:
272:
266:
263:
262:
254:
253:
246:Low-importance
242:
236:
235:
233:
221:Food and drink
216:the discussion
199:
198:
182:
170:
169:
167:Low‑importance
164:Food and drink
161:
149:
148:
145:
144:
137:Low-importance
133:
127:
126:
124:
107:the discussion
94:
93:
77:
65:
64:
62:Low‑importance
56:
44:
43:
37:
26:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
2277:
2266:
2263:
2261:
2258:
2256:
2253:
2251:
2248:
2246:
2243:
2241:
2238:
2236:
2233:
2231:
2228:
2226:
2223:
2222:
2220:
2213:
2212:
2208:
2204:
2198:
2197:
2192:
2186:
2184:
2183:
2179:
2175:
2168:
2165:
2163:
2160:
2158:
2157:Moscow Bronze
2155:
2153:
2150:
2148:
2145:
2142:
2139:
2138:
2137:
2135:
2128:
2125:
2123:
2120:
2118:
2115:
2111:
2107:
2103:
2100:
2097:
2095:
2093:
2090:
2088:
2085:
2082:
2079:
2076:
2073:
2071:
2068:
2065:
2062:
2058:
2055:
2054:
2053:
2050:
2040:
2038:
2033:
2028:
2023:
2022:
2020:
2019:
2016:
2014:
2012:
2006:
2002:
1998:
1994:
1990:
1985:
1979:
1970:
1967:
1964:
1962:
1955:
1949:
1944:
1943:
1942:
1941:
1937:
1933:
1929:
1928:
1923:
1917:
1916:
1907:
1904:
1901:
1899:
1892:
1888:
1887:Bronze turkey
1884:
1878:
1875:
1873:
1868:
1864:
1863:WP:CONSISTENT
1860:
1856:
1855:Bronze turkey
1852:
1848:
1844:
1840:
1836:
1832:
1828:
1819:
1816:
1812:
1809:
1808:
1799:
1796:
1788:
1783:
1779:
1776:
1772:
1768:
1767:WP:CONCEPTDAB
1763:
1759:
1755:
1752:
1751:
1750:
1741:
1738:
1735:
1733:
1726:
1722:
1718:
1714:
1710:
1706:
1702:
1697:
1691:
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1685:
1684:
1681:
1673:
1669:
1666:
1662:
1656:
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1636:
1633:
1630:
1628:
1621:
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1613:
1612:
1611:
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1601:
1598:
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1587:
1584:
1578:
1574:
1570:
1566:
1562:
1554:
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1534:
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1521:
1517:
1514:
1510:
1501:
1498:
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1478:
1475:
1474:
1473:
1470:
1462:
1456:
1449:
1443:
1439:
1435:
1431:
1427:
1424:
1423:
1412:
1408:
1404:
1403:65.94.171.225
1400:
1396:
1395:Bronze turkey
1392:
1388:
1384:
1380:
1379:
1378:
1374:
1370:
1366:
1365:Bronze turkey
1362:
1358:
1355:
1354:
1353:
1349:
1345:
1341:
1340:
1339:
1335:
1331:
1327:
1323:
1319:
1317:
1315:
1312:
1309:
1308:
1307:
1306:
1303:
1299:
1295:
1291:
1287:
1284:
1283:
1272:
1268:
1264:
1260:
1259:
1258:
1257:
1256:
1252:
1246:
1240:
1239:
1236:
1232:
1228:
1224:
1221:
1217:
1213:
1209:
1205:
1202:
1199:
1196:
1194:
1191:
1188:
1185:
1183:
1180:
1177:
1174:
1171:
1170:Ridley Bronze
1168:
1165:
1162:
1160:
1157:
1156:
1154:
1151:
1147:
1146:
1145:
1141:
1135:
1129:
1128:
1125:
1121:
1117:
1112:
1108:
1105:
1099:
1095:
1092:
1089:
1086:
1085:
1084:
1082:
1074:
1071:
1068:
1065:
1064:
1063:
1060:
1055:
1054:Bronze turkey
1049:
1048:
1044:
1040:
1036:
1035:move requests
1032:
1025:
1023:
1018:
1013:
1008:
1007:
1002:
984:
982:
978:
974:
961:
957:
953:
951:
947:
944:
940:
936:
933:
931:
930:
925:
922:
918:
914:
910:
906:
902:
901:
896:
895:
890:
886:
882:
879:
877:
876:
871:
868:
864:
860:
856:
852:
849:
847:
846:
841:
838:
834:
830:
826:
822:
819:
817:
816:
811:
808:
804:
800:
796:
793:
791:
790:
785:
782:
778:
777:Avian malaria
774:
773:Cnemophilidae
770:
769:
764:
760:
756:
753:
751:
750:
745:
742:
738:
734:
730:
727:
725:
724:
719:
716:
712:
708:
704:
700:
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695:
694:
689:
686:
682:
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663:
659:
658:
652:
649:
647:
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634:
633:
631:
630:
626:
622:
621:
617:
613:
609:
603:
600:
599:
596:
592:bird articles
580:
578:
572:
568:
564:
563:
562:
556:
555:Bronze turkey
550:
539:
537:
534:
530:
529:
525:
519:
516:
513:
509:
490:
476:
475:project ideas
472:
468:
466:
462:
459:
455:
451:
448:
444:
440:
437:
433:
431:
427:
423:
419:
416:status up to
415:
411:
407:
405:
401:
397:
393:
390:status up to
389:
385:
381:
379:
375:
371:
367:
363:
359:
355:
351:
347:
343:
342:
337:
333:
329:
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324:
321:
320:
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308:
303:
302:
297:
296:
291:
290:
286:
283:
281:
278:
276:
273:
271:
268:
267:
265:
264:
260:
259:
255:
251:
247:
241:
238:
237:
234:
217:
213:
209:
205:
204:
196:
190:
185:
183:
180:
176:
175:
171:
165:
162:
159:
155:
142:
138:
132:
129:
128:
125:
108:
104:
100:
99:
91:
80:
78:
75:
71:
70:
66:
60:
57:
54:
50:
45:
41:
35:
27:
23:
18:
17:
2199:
2194:
2193:
2190:
2171:
2131:
2044:
2031:
2024:
2010:
1983:
1982:
1960:
1927:color bronze
1926:
1925:
1921:
1920:
1897:
1876:
1824:
1810:
1770:
1761:
1753:
1731:
1712:
1708:
1700:
1695:
1654:
1626:
1559:— Preceding
1537:
1515:
1491:
1425:
1382:
1344:70.51.46.146
1294:70.51.46.146
1285:
1149:
1103:
1093:
1087:
1078:
1051:
1030:
1028:
1016:
1009:
970:
949:
948:
927:
926:
898:
892:
881:Argus (bird)
873:
872:
843:
842:
813:
812:
787:
786:
766:
747:
746:
737:Saker falcon
721:
720:
691:
690:
673:
672:
607:
574:
567:project page
559:
558:
554:
549:Birds portal
474:
453:
417:
413:
409:
408:Bring these
391:
387:
383:
382:Bring these
366:Ham and eggs
339:
335:
331:
327:
316:
315:
293:
245:
201:
136:
96:
40:WikiProjects
2037:move review
1961:SMcCandlish
1898:SMcCandlish
1872:WP:CRITERIA
1853:, and have
1732:SMcCandlish
1717:WP:CRITERIA
1655:Weak oppose
1627:SMcCandlish
1596:goes ahead.
1590:SMcCandlish
1492:SMcCandlish
1448:SMcCandlish
1187:Bronzeputen
1022:move review
733:Magpie duck
707:Bird flight
557:is part of
489:transcluded
473:. List any
458:select here
426:Burger King
195:Food portal
112:Agriculture
103:agriculture
59:Agriculture
30:Start-class
2219:Categories
1867:WP:CONCISE
1815:WP:NATURAL
1565:Sphilbrick
1550:Sphilbrick
1485:WP:NATURAL
1326:WP:PRECISE
1322:WP:NATURAL
1150:Bronzepute
889:Nik Borrow
759:Nidicolous
577:substitute
571:discussion
1727:problem.
1172:in Canada
1107:George Ho
1104:Relisted.
1031:not moved
795:Debeaking
768:Cathartes
755:Phalarope
711:Bird bath
699:Bullfinch
443:WP:Trivia
370:Soy sauce
338:status:
2174:PigeonIP
2144:Bulgaria
1787:Gregkaye
1725:WP:POINT
1690:Gregkaye
1672:Gregkaye
1586:Gregkaye
1573:contribs
1561:unsigned
1516:Comments
1461:Gregkaye
1455:Dicklyon
1369:PigeonIP
1330:PigeonIP
1263:PigeonIP
1227:PigeonIP
1189:(Bronze)
1116:PigeonIP
1039:Dekimasu
917:Starling
851:Coal tit
729:Plushcap
723:Copyedit
452:Add the
420:status:
394:status:
2196:turkey.
2102:Ireland
1984:Comment
1837:), and
1765:into a
1754:Comment
1667:result.
1426:Comment
1286:Comment
1225:.... --
1178:in Cuba
900:Fregata
894:Pytilia
693:Cleanup
641:history
610:on the
275:history
248:on the
139:on the
2147:Russia
2087:Uganda
2070:Guyana
2049:JTdale
2011:JTdale
1948:Otr500
1932:Otr500
1922:Oppose
1883:Bronze
1811:Oppose
1771:Bronze
1524:DAD-IS
1428:let's
1079:(ref:
979:, and
929:Wikify
909:Darter
875:Verify
845:Update
749:Expand
378:Yogurt
36:scale.
2132:FAO:
2106:Korea
2084:Egypt
1954:WP:AT
1835:WP:OR
1098:there
950:Other
815:Stubs
651:purge
646:watch
625:To-do
583:Birds
518:Birds
422:Apple
404:Sugar
374:Sushi
358:Drink
354:Curry
350:Bread
285:purge
280:watch
212:drink
2207:talk
2178:talk
2003:and
1936:talk
1865:vs.
1723:and
1604:talk
1569:talk
1538:seem
1440:and
1407:talk
1373:talk
1348:talk
1334:talk
1328:. --
1324:and
1298:talk
1267:talk
1250:talk
1231:talk
1218:and
1139:talk
1120:talk
1111:talk
943:more
921:more
867:more
837:more
807:more
789:NPOV
781:more
741:more
715:more
685:more
636:edit
445:and
430:Fish
396:Beer
362:Food
346:Beef
295:here
270:edit
210:and
208:food
2136::
2029:.
1975:ⱷ≼
1971:≽ⱷ҅
1912:ⱷ≼
1908:≽ⱷ҅
1841:or
1746:ⱷ≼
1742:≽ⱷ҅
1641:ⱷ≼
1637:≽ⱷ҅
1506:ⱷ≼
1502:≽ⱷ҅
1393:or
1383:not
1357:LOL
1083:)
602:Low
240:Low
131:Low
2221::
2209:)
2180:)
2172:--
2117:UK
2112:,
2108:=
2104:,
2081:UK
2078:US
2067:UK
2064:US
2059:=
1999:,
1995:,
1991:,
1958:—
1938:)
1895:—
1820:is
1762:If
1729:—
1624:—
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1571:•
1518:.
1489:—
1436:,
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1375:)
1350:)
1336:)
1300:)
1269:)
1247:•
1233:)
1214:,
1210:,
1206:,
1136:•
1122:)
1102:--
1100:.
1056:→
1043:よ!
1037:.
1014:.
983:.
975:,
937:•
915:•
911:•
907:•
903:•
897:•
891:•
887:•
883:•
861:•
857:•
853:•
831:•
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823:•
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735:•
731:•
709:•
705:•
701:•
428:,
424:,
418:FA
414:GA
402:,
398:,
392:FA
388:GA
376:,
372:,
368:,
364:,
360:,
356:,
352:,
348:,
336:GA
322::
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2176:(
2051::
2047:@
1973:ᴥ
1969:¢
1966:☏
1963:☺
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1946:@
1934:(
1910:ᴥ
1906:¢
1903:☏
1900:☺
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687:)
683:(
678::
627::
614:.
460:.
438:.
332:B
252:.
143:.
42::
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