265:. One of my educations is History, my family is from Macedonia (Ohrid) and I know very well the official doctrine of Scopie. If there was some evidence for non-Bulgarian consciousness of GD, be sure I and you (after you involved in this discusion) would be informed. Coce Delchev and IMRO had a contradictions with some of Bulgarian governments about methods of the strugle, but their ethnic belonging was Bulgarian, their culture and language was Bulgarian. The ideas of Macedonism (The doctrine that the Macedonians aren't Bulgarians) in this time wasn't popular in Macedonia. There are many, many documents of the liders of IMRO (IMORO) wich proving this. So, I think that my suggestion is in favour of neutrality. If we want to describe correctly every points of view (I don't want to define my point of view only like Bulgarian because it is the point of view of the contemporaries - Turcish, Englishmen etc), we have to think about some sentences in this sence. I do not want to delete non very serious macedonistic (not Macedonian, because in regional sence I am Macedonian too) assertions that in the begining of XX century, in the time of Bulgarian schools and literature the word "Bulgarian" actualy didn't ment "Bulgarian" :), I just want to add one very simple sentence. One of the options is: "
1401:
themselves
Macedonians (late XVII century) and there's a very interesting thing, one of then wrote "they say: we are Slavic and they are Turano-Bulgarians)". Hmm... And, Goce Delchev never said that he was Bulgarian, on the contrary, he was tending to persuade Macedonians to free themselves of foreign propagandas and he was ALWAYS saying that the only way to freedom of Macedonians is the internal way, only internal revolution is the way, no Bulgarians, nor Serbians will help us. And by the way, err, that letter from Goce (on the page) is.. i don't know how to call it.. it's funny, i think that even bulgarians know that it's forgery. In fact, the real letter is in one of our museums and it's very similar to the one exposed on the page. Goce was just saying that we suffer from a dicease, that we should all tend not to be ashame of being Macedonian and we shouldn't betray ourselves and some other things. In (not far) future, that letter will be removed and maybe you'll get some penlties for forging or something (yeah, i know you might be lauging at the moment). That's all, God be with you and people live freely!
613:
some years later was annexed to
Bulgaria. There were two ways to for Bulgaria to annex Macedonia, either directly or via independence. the second one was better, because it was considered to be more successful among people who did not necessarily see themselves as bulgarians. It is true that A PART of the population in the region at the time did not have a clear national conscience,neither bulgarian nor greek, but were rather peacely surviving under the ottoman rule. This part was the target group of the 'macedonist' scheme that was followed in Iliden, when bulgarians organised their revolution. It is interesting to see that Delchev says that there are people that struggle for a greek or bulgarian macedonia and tries to create a 'macedonian' manifesto which would, apparently, address to all (greek, bulgarian etc) that lived in Macedonia, the 'macedoninans'. it seems that while bulgarian, greek, serb mean origin, macedonia stands for Delchev as a geographical entity, that should become (but it was not) a national entity. Despoina, a greek macedonian, from Thessaloniki, Goumenissa and Kozani.
368:
source is not your textbook). And I hope too that you make difference between
Macedonian like regional term (which includes every nationalities in MK) and Macedonian in ethnic sence. Both of we are Macedonians, but obviously you are in both of meanings of the word and I am not. In discussions in MK Knowledge I had an oppurtunity to explain why IMORO fighting for aythonomy, not for "accomplishment of a Greater Bulgarian state" and I quoted one of its founders - Hristo Tatarchev who claim in his memoirs that the authonomy was only realistic purpose. I reccomend you to see my article Dimitar Vlahov (Димитър Влахов) in BG Knowledge and to read a part of the confession of the one of Macedonistic and Communist leaders about usage of the terms "Bulgarians" in the begining of XX century. Concerning NPOV I haven't big notes, but it is normal you to be more satisfied. Every compromise is a retreat. The question is who and how much retreats. In a state of expectation for sources (if there aren't in discussion) and with best regards,--
1262:
succeeded in getting independence from Turkey. The national consciousness was formed then. And every newly formed state identified itself with some medieval state. What no one takes in regard is that a nation as we know it today didn't exist then on the
Balkans (before the XVIII century). Most probably, every single Slav identified himself as identical to every other Slav of the Balkan Peninsula - no language was codified, no other state but the Ottoman Empire existed. The elements that mattered were similarity of the spoken language (Slavic) and the belonging to the Orthodox Christian religion. In this sense, a Bulgarian could not see any difference from a Serb or Macedonian and vice versa. If we managed to form our state in the 1850's for example, I'm sure that no one would dispute our ethnicity nor our identification with the medieval states of Samuil and Krale Marko, as do Bulgaria and Serbia today!
1956:, to ‘cultivating the land’ and to ‘taking over everything’ as you wish to do in Salonica with the Sunday School, with your ‘presidency’ and your ignoring of the rights of the Council — the representatives of the people: even worse will be the position of your chief, let him be who he may, if he goes on giving you similar instructions. The Bulgarian ideal will never triumph if you go on in this mind. Why have we Macedonians got nothing at all? We have gained nothing thanks to our blind trust in our so-called brothers and so we have nothing to lose. It is sad, but what can we do when the majority of our intellectuals have been corrupted by your gold? Once upon a time the gold of our countryman Philip bought the prudent Athenian intellectuals and he conquered Greece. Other days, other ways, conditions are just the reverse now — Brother has sold brother…"
1316:
not origin-eclectic: most probably before their death they could have killed other greeks themselves. Please do not be so ready to state numbers, it is a most dangerous thing. As far as I know, today (2007) about 6000 people in whole Greece voted for a party that claims to be macedonian, while greek
Macedonia alone has 2.420.000 citizens. Greece has more german or philipin people inside her borders I suppose. Isn't it a bit far-fetched to speak about the 'macedonians' who were 'erradicated' from Greece? There are some people though who left Greece after the civil war and were not permitted to come back (please do not name thousands again!). Have u ever thought that the reason might not correlate with origin? Despoina, a greek macedonian
3184:
could be more fatal to the prospects of any
Christian race in Turkey. The Macedonian peasantry will bestow their allegiance only on a propaganda which promises them some speedy prospect of release from the Ottoman yoke. Finally, there is this great difference between the rival propagandas, that while the Bulgarians are working for the autonomy of Macedonia, the Servians and the Greeks aim only at its annexation to their own country. The result is that their activities seem to be for the profit of their own land, whereas the Bulgarians are undoubtedly creating a spirit of local Macedonian patriotism. The Servian movement is a purely official agitation, guided and financed in Belgrade; whereas, despite the sympathy of Sofia, the
3161:"To this end Prince Ferdinand, Bulgaria's expansionist ruler, established in 1895 the External Organization -- known also as the Supreme Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Committee. Dedicated to armed revolution, the External Organization actually advocated "either way" to Macedonian redemption -- autonomy or incorporation into the Bulgarian state. In intermittent and uneasy alliance with the Sofia-based group was a collection of militant Macedonian autonomists who in 1893 had organized themselves into the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. Between 1893 and 1897 IMRO concentrated on gathering arms and perfecting its organization."
2982:;) The important thing is that the article was changed (for the will of truth). Anyway, there are numerous letters where Goce Delchev claims to be Macedonian (Slavic), which is different from Bulgarian (Tatar), but I won't argue with you on that topic, since your mind is poisoned (duh). Oh, and, where are the few letters from and to Goce in the article? Hmm... They contained stuff like "WE DON'T NEED HELP FROM BULGARIANS", so, they were removed. Never mind, it's ok with me, I was worried only about the first part of the article where it used to say that Goce was an ethnic Bulgarian, but now, it's balanced (more or less).
3974:“Gifted with healthy national sense, Gotse clearly saw, that in uniting all Macedonians… lies the pledge for freedom of Macedonia as independent political unit” (Eftimov, Dim. P. Deloto na Gotse Delchev, Varna 1937, p 19). In the name of the ideal “Macedona to Macedonians” all ethnic groups are with the Organization. In Western Macedonia, Gotse is met as a welcomed guest to Grkomani (pro Greek), Bugaromani (pro Bulgarian), Srbomani (pro Serb) and Vlachs (Romanian Macedonians). “Under his convincing advocating in the name of the common Macedonian ideal, disappeared artificially imposed national antagonism.” (Ibid, p 18)
287:" (as opposed to, say, a hammock or on a tatami). The reason is because many, if not most, people in that region in those days slept in beds (sometimes not very nice ones, nor would they resemble much the beds used today in that region - at least not beds used by school teachers). The statement is true by deduction from a general notion of bed culture. However, it applies to just about everyone else too. This makes it a non-notable statement and I think we should edit out non-notable statements from wiki articles because they dilute the subject matter.
2095:. There are statements where he claims both Bulgarian and Macedonian ethnicity. I'll add one more here for the Macedonian people. Moreover, he fought for an independent or autonomous Macedonian state and he refers to those advocation union with Bulgaria as "degenerates". Sure, one can argue that he used Macedonian as a "regional identifier", but he also might have used Bulgarian as a "religious identifier" (member of the Bulgarian Excharhate, see A.T. Balan) or as a "political wrapping" (see, Stefan Vlahov-Micov, both authors are ethnic Bulgarians).
3223:"In 1893 the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (VMRO) was founded, opposing the partition of Macedonia and advocating the idea of autonomy. Soon a rival sentiment in favour of incorporation into Bulgaria gave rise in 1895 to an external Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, based in Sofia. Both groups clashed with Greek and Serb irregular bands and the Ottoman army, during the violent period known as the ‘Macedonian Struggle’ (1897-1908) which provoked the deployment of the first modern International Police Force."
1220:. Both of them had nothing but resent for Bulgaria, because of the Bulgarian occupation in WW2, that they had to live through, when Bulgaria forcefully renamed them (Popov instead of Popovski and Simeonov instead of Simonovski) and forbade the use of Macedonian, just like Serbia did before them. Many Macedonians were actually tricked that they were being liberated, but actually what they got is just another tyranny. It didn't take long before they organized themselves to fight Bulgaria and its allies, Germany, Italy and Albania.
1619:
however it did not exist at the time, so BMARC stays. Whatever other competing organizations existed at the time might not be relevant unless it is shown that Goce
Delchev was their member. For Bulgarian-Macedonian, we use Bulgarian first because that is the only sourced nationality of Goce Delchev. Also, important part of his life is his teaching Bulgarian language, in a Bulgarian school in Stip. And last, but not least, Turkish documents from 1903 describe Goce Delchev as a leader of the "Bulgarian committees".
1599:
reason for the use of the term IMRO instead of BMARC. First of all, it is uncertain how the organisation was named from its beginnings, and in the 19th century. Two rival constitutions exist - the BMARC and the SMARO constitution. The
Bulgarian POV is that the operating name was BMARC from 1896 to 1902. As far as I know, there is absolutely no evidence for this. Moreover, it is very unlikely for this to be true - there is SMARO constitution which is to be found in the British Foreign Office which is dated under
1243:(Edesa), Prespa… you will find Macedonians. Most of them have Greek names and don't speak Macedonian in public (when other Greeks can hear them), but if you find yourself alone with them, you will see that they haven't forgotten the language and they identify themselves as Macedonians - just are not allowed to publicly say so. I visited these regions a few times and I'm telling you this from a first-hand knowledge. Go and find for yourself, don't just listen to the lies they taught you in school.
4374:
still larger part are Muslim. The Muslim
Bulgarians in Rhodopes are called Ahryani, in Macedonia (around Tikvesh), are called Torbeshi, in Moesia they are called Pomaks, and the latter name is usually used for all Bulgarian Muslims. Pomak dialects of Bulgarian are different depending on the region, which is why the attempts for artificially creating a "Pomak langauge" failed, the only common denominator being that they are dialects of the Bulgarian language.
4554:
31:
4614:
3201:"...Yet the veiolence of these movements generated the heroic perception of the Bulgarian struggle for national unity. Laying the foundation of the shared Bulgarian and Macedonian myths of liberation, the organisations thus had an impact that lasts until this day. The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (VMRO or IMRO) was founded in 1893 in Salonica. The Supreme Macedonian Committee of VMRO was established in Bulgaria in 1895."
4216:, because Gotse Delchev is the most remarkable of all Macedonian revolutionaries, no matter what you think of his nationality! His ethnicity is far from clear, as is Sandanski's, Gruev's, Karev's and many others'. You're crossing the line! You won't even allow for this article to be in a related category?! What's next??? BTW, nice job you're doing by using so many sockpuppets, too bad I don't have the quality of being so deceptive.
1234:
so called
Torbesh Macedonians) - these are accounted as Albanians. Further, in the first two censuses conducted in Bulgaria, in 1946 and 1956, 160541 and 178862 people declared as Macedonians, mostly in the region Pirin Macedonia, which remained occupied by Bulgaria from the Balkan wars until today. In the next censuses, these Macedonians mysteriously disappeared - due to the repression from Bulgarian authorities.
3232:"In 1893 the situation was complicated by the establishment of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (IMRO) which advocated the creation of a separate Macedonian state within a Balkan federation. The Bulgarians went to considerable lengths to neutralise IMRO and by 1903 had infiltrated its leadership. In August 1903 IMRO staged a large-scale revolt in the Macedonia and Edirne (Adrianopole) vilayets."
2164:
would also like to remind everybody that is the 3RR rule is a Knowledge tool to prevent edit wars, and not a policy to protect a side that is presenting zero sources to support it's claims. If this trend continues, and further unsupported reverts are being made, I'll contact an sysop to protect this page. Then the supporters of the claim would have to use the talk page and present some sources, for a change. --
1687:
the activities of the original IMRO - were they really instances of "Bulgarian patriotism"? According to Britannica, no, and this is the widely accepted view. Were they "Macedonian patriots"? Yes, they were. Were they ethnic Macedonians, in the modern sense of the word? That's hard to say, but in general, they played a significant role in the process of the awakening of a separate ethnic Macedonian identity. --
2720:
or Greeks'. I think this clearly makes him different from a Bulgarian in Macedonia. Never mind, it's not important here. All that matters is that the NPOV in the article is finally satisfied up to a point, for which I'm very thankful to both Macedonians and Bulgarians. And I'd like to say "честит празник" to all Macedonians (and all the ones who have respect for the Ilinden revolutionaries).
98:
these through any of the current discussions on this page, or by opening a new sub-category. However, it would be best if they propose concrete edit accompanied with good reason and references. It can be a good idea if they could read through this discussion in its entirety: this will allow them to appreciate that many POVs and NPOVs have already been expressed and discussed. --
4186:, the Bulgarian Historical Archive department, fund 224, archive unit 8, page 602, published by the publishing house of the Bulgarian Academy of science, Institute for History in "Гоце Делчев Писма и други материали", Издирил и подготвил за печат Дино Кьосев, отговорен редактор Воин Божинов, Изд. на Българската академия на науките, Институт за история, София 1967 (check
3019:. Btw the quotes you mentioned were removed because they are from the novel Ilinden by Dimitar Talev. And also, "Macedonian" here is used to identify a person from the region of Macedonia, not en ethnic Macedonian. When Goce Delchev said Macedonian he meant a person from the region. Remember the statute of SMORO - "Every Macedonian and Adrianoplian"
4345:. In Bulgaria every people can find sources where all Macedonian hereos was defined themself like Bulgarian. I really hope you find source where some of national heroes of Republic Macednia define himself or herself like ethnic Macedonian. Let's search start now. No one Macedonian "historician" can't find these sources but you are clever boy.
662:. Similar pattern should be followed for most VMORO activists whose ethnicities are contested between RoM and Bulgaria, since there is no academic consensus between modern non-partisan historians. The reader himself should decide which side is right or wrong, according to the presented sources. Everything else is simply contrary to the
182:
which did not advocate for Great Bulgaria), so i have made the necessary edit to that effect. One of the statements has an unclear wording so I wanna ask you what you meant with it. The question regards the bolded text: Bulgarian historians argue that the Macedonian autonomy was never meant to have an "ethnic Macedonian" nature
4003:"При обиколката си в Западна Македония, където на всяка стъпка трябваше да конферира с гъркомани и куцовласи (sic!), той проявяваше всичкото обаяние на едно искрено слово и всичката привлекателност на една светла душа, защото и гъркомани, и куцовласи го посрещнаха като желан гост и го изпратиха като роден брат." (p. 18) (
1353:
Bulgarians and Macedonians and he says that he fights for Macedonia and Macedonians, not Bulgarians. But Macedonians seem to be too lazy to stand up and see what's going on. The truth is being hidden successfully by the Greatbulgarian nationalists. But as you all know, the truth will come out in the end, don't worry.
3105:
Dude, I just can't understand how come you can insult as much as you want and no-one even cares. E.g. the part where u call me a Bulgarian (eww) insults me more than ANYTHING, I think that Satan wouldn't say such thing to me. And the "western Bulgarians" are a fiction of yours for which I don't blame
1686:
About the Turkish documents, that is no surprise. The Christian Slav population of Macedonia was generally regarded as Bulgarian, at the time. That also applies for most (but not all) international terminology, at the time. However, what is much more important is how modern historians would interpret
1233:
minority in the region of Little Prespa. Albania never problematized the existence of the Macedonian people, as did Greece and Bulgaria; the only problem was (is?) with the Macedonian minorities in the Albanian regions just west of Debar and in Gora, where Macedonians adopted the Muslim religion (the
1224:
These, what you call Macedonian minorities in Albania and Bulgaria didn't exist prior to 1990. They are a fabrication of the Republic of Macedonia and the only reason Albania and Bulgaria recognised them was to safeguard the interests of the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Albanians and Bulgarians in
612:
I would just like to add a comment: the fact that Delchev might have struggled for an independent Macedonia, does not prove that he was not a Bulgarian. Just during the same period, East Romylia (today's south part of Bulgaria) declared independence from the Ottoman empire as an independent state and
469:
But the ethnicity is exactly about self-identification. You have not provided sources that he self-identified as Macedonian, only that he fought for independent Macedonia, which is completely different. The article clearly says the he fought for indenepenent Macedonia, so let the reader determine how
377:
Lutskanov: Hi, everybody! I just want to make one simple remark: The mere fact that the existence of the so-called "macedonian nation" provokes such deep epistemological discussions may be means something? What is it? Is it that the ontological status of this entity is a little bit problematic? ;) By
210:
Ok, this version of the article is a good examle of a NPOV. Yes, Modi, the discussion should be archived, but I don't know how to do that. I will try to find the full Karev-Delchev letter translation and make proposal for subheadings, the first moment I encounter some free time. Have a great weekend.
4373:
Calling Bulgarians "Orthodox Slavs" is very misguided and shows that the person does not know history at all. First, Bulgarian Slavs are different from Polish, Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Czech, and so on, Slavs. Second, Bulgarian Slavs are not all Orthodox: part of them are Catholic, and
4312:
Obviously, you haven't read the article. Or you don't know what a NPOV is. The article states everything related and lets the reader decide whether he was X or Y. And if "Macedonian" had a regional meaning, then "Bulgarian" had a religious one (Orthodox Slavs). We can't know what they meant for sure
4156:
For example in a speech, addressed to the VIII extraordinary congress of the Bulgarian promilitary Supreme Macedono-Adrianopolitan Organisation in Sofia on April 7, 1901: "Само ако тукашната организация одобрява духът на вътр/ешната/ организация и не се стреми да й дава импулс, въздействие, т. е. не
2805:
The "don't need no help from Bulgarians" part makes it clear that he cannot be Bulgarian (by ANY logic, though). And the quotes where he says "We are Bulgarians" are non-existant, never has he said such thing, but that's NOT an issue to be discussed on Knowledge and as such, it should be left alone,
1247:
If you go to Greece, Bulgaria or Albania, there is direct visual evidence of a Greek minority in Albania and Turkish minorities in Greece and Bulgaria (amongst others, Aromanians etc). There have been demonstrations involving hundreds of members of these minorities who can all speak their languages.
1144:
revolutionaire. If nothing else (I mean the Macedonian POV: what Misisrkov says 'bout propagandas in Macedonia etc.), Goce was a cosmopolitan in the real meaning of that word. ,,I understand the world solely as a field for cultural competition among nations" he said. So, he was only a revolutionairy
1043:
If you go to Greece, Bulgaria or Albania, there is direct visual evidence of a Greek minority in Albania and Turkish minorities in Greece and Bulgaria (amongst others, Aromanians etc). There have been demonstrations involving hundreds of members of these minorities who can all speak their languages.
329:
Going back to the negative stile issue, I have a deep dislike of the usage of negative formulations as I find its purpose is usually political. This may not be the case in your proposal but as someone who has been writing on socio-economic and political issues for a very long time, I assure you that
97:
As this article contains issues that can be contentious, it is best to refrain from fly-by and anonymous edits, even those of the slightest detail. The article has been under protection once already and can easily become protected again: this serves no purpose. Paricipants with issues should address
4637:
From the content of the article is pretty clear that then(the beginning of 20th century) not only for the Bulgarians "Macedonian" was equal to Bulgarian from Macedonia but for authoritative source like NYT as well. Bulgarian, Apostol, Macedonian leader and Deltzeff are used as synonyms.There`s even
4279:
You can notice that the article doesn't clearly define him as neither Macedonian nor Bulgarian. If we don't add the "Macedonian revolutionaries" category, we might as well remove the "Bulgarian revolutionaries" category. Or, as reasonable Wikipedians, we can include them both (just as everyone else
2856:
Huh, "non-existant", "never has he said such thing", "NOT an issue to be discussed"... What exactly is the problem with you guys? Delchev clearly self-identified as an ethnic Bulgarian and clearly worked to create an independent/autonomous multiethnic state encompassing the region of Macedonia. His
2719:
Believe me, I know that that is the range of your knowledge, but please, try to keep it for yourself because of a simple reason: maybe that is NOT the 'objective' truth. In fact, it's not, since there are many quotes of his in which he says 'We Macedonians don't need any help from Bulgarians, Serbs
2101:
are provided to to suggest that there is a consensus that Goce Delchev was an ethnic Bulgarian, that he was a fervent Bulgarian patriot or something, it would be totally POV to assert that he is a "Bulgarian revolutionary". That is not for Knowledge to determine or suggest, the reader should decide
1315:
Please, hold back a bit. '15000 Macedonian were killed.' Thousands of Greeks were killed, from both sides, and a lot from Macedonia too. If there were some people without a greek conscience in the region (which is a maybe), and took part in the war, most probably they could get killed too, guns are
1035:
These, what you call, Macedonian minorities in Albania and Bulgaria didn't exist prior to 1990. They are a fabrication of the Republic of Macedonia and the only reason Albania and Bulgaria recognised them was to safeguard the interests of the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Albanians and Bulgarians
930:
How comes that the "Tito invention" flew over in Albania and Macedonians there declared themselves as Macedonians, not Bulgarians? There could be no discussion about influence from Yugoslavia because in those days (1950-1990, under Enver Hoxa) the border between Albania and Macedonia was closed and
926:
If Macedonians were "invented by Tito" after WW2, how is it possible that all of a sudden every single "Bulgarian" in Macedonia suddenly chose to call himself a Macedonian and to teach his children that they are Macedonian and not Bulgarians (as you think), teach them that everybody hated Bulgarian
587:
Again, personal my friend, that is your opinion. He does not say "I am macedonian". Rather makes a general conclusion. Plus he gives no insight as to how Macedonian relates to Bulgarian, and in particular if Macedonians are part of all Bulgarian people. The only 100% sure fact is that he considered
348:
AKeckarov, I think, you should really look the discussion first. Actually, I have provided some evidence where he identifies himself with "we, the macedonian people". I don't claim that he had an undoubted macedonian conciousness, but to claim that he was of bulgarian conciousness (or ethnicity) is
1068:
etc... etc... Where are the Macedonians? Don't say ancient Macedon, that's rubbish. There are no identifiable links of the modern (Slavic) Macedonians with ancient Macedon, who most definitely weren't Slavs. Only claims exist - and claims remain claims until they are proven. This has yet to happen
1039:
The so-called Macedonian minority in Greece is also fabricated. The only evidence of its existence is a political party - the Rainbow - which in the latest elections amassed approximately 3,000 votes in Macedonia, presumably due to the fact that it is the only political party supporting gay rights
493:
That's right. Everyone chooses his/hers self-identification. Goce wanted to be a Macedonian and live in a free and independent country. How can you tell that ,,Bulgarian" should stay, if the Bulgarian didn't fought for it's fatherland, but for another one? For the sake of NPOV, this version should
244:
AKeckarov, can you please explain what is the problem that this addition will solve. Once you have done this, those interested in the article can react and we could agree to an addition or edit. I can not disagree or agree with your suggestion as I do not understand your rationale nor do I see any
196:
It seems clear to me, but maybe I am missing something. Would you like to delete it or some part of it? I thought the whole discussion revealed that Bulgarian historians assert that their was no notion of a Macedonian ethnicity (as distinct from Bulgarian) at the time of GD and many feel that even
3183:
When, in addition to these advantages, the Bulgarophil Macedonians started their marvellously-organised revolutionary committee in 1893, the Servian cause received its death-blow. By way of emphasising her antagonism to Bulgaria, official Servia now adopted an openly Turcophil policy, and nothing
2679:
I can't express my gratefulness to all the wikipedians who participated in changing the Goce Delchev article, so that it would be at least a bit closer to the "real" NPOV. Due to certain delay, I'm checking this article after a long time and I was pleasingly surprised by the obvious changes. Just
1925:
As it is already stated in the article, SMARO could have been incorporated in 1898, and it might even have coexisted with BMARC until 1902, as Goce Delchev, given the new sources, seems to have been a member of both. However still, there is no mention of Goce Delchev calling himself a Macedonian,
1598:
I have also serious objections about the terminology. The most widely used term for the organisation is IMRO or IMARO, not BMARC (even though when he was alive was certainly not IMRO). Sure, I'm an evil and a brainwashed Macedonist for claiming this, but most international sources may have a good
1266:
I am just asking the bulgars to come here, and have a chat or two with Aegean and Pirin Macedonians, which have been erradicated from Greece (in the Civil War, when 15.000 Macedonians were killed) and Bulgaria (police force and by other means of pressure). Come here and have a chat, and hear what
1261:
Yes, it's rubbish. Macedonians are of Slavic descent, most probably more Slavic than Bulgarians (who have Tatar blood in them). The problem with the non-recognition of the Macedonian nation is mostly because we didn't manage to form our state in the mid-XIX century, when most of the Balkan states
1242:
This is a different issue, but: indeed, there are very few Macedonians left in Aegean Macedonia: most of them were forced to leave the country after the Greek civil war. Many of them settled in the Republic of Macedonia. Still, if you visit the regions of Lerin (Florina), Kostur (Kastoria), Voden
1047:
There is no evidence of a separate Macedonian ethnicity prior to the 1940s. There is evidence of Albanians, Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Vlachs, and there is ample evidence of the existence of each. The Albanians are one of the most ancient people in Europe and an Albanian language as we
363:
P.S. However, there is evidences (memoirs of the contemporaries) that GD slept in anything else but a bed - sometimes in the ground, when he was in the moutains in Macedonia with his revolutionary band. The deduction is very useful thing, but the historians are nagging and mistrustful peoples :))
359:
Modi, I think that you almost convinced me. It is really worth to think about positive and negative stile. There is too many history in every piece in Balkans and too many emotions. I like the history but I am not pleased at its usage for political purposes. Actually, I know that the world is not
181:
Hey, Modi, the work of GD has a significance for Macedonian statehood but not for Macedonian nationhood - it is Misirkov's work which is of importance for the formation/legitimisation of the Macedonian nation (that part of the work, which did not refer to the Macedonian Slavs as of Bulgarians and
4493:
Only cause the predominant view in the world was that he was in fact Bulgarian (including his own obviously) and cause you have a problem with him being called a Bulgarian, doesn't give you the right to write such things. He was viewed (and is viewed) by most of the world as a Bulgarian. Period.
2163:
has requested such sources, and I have found them, now it's his turn to support the BMARC theory. Stating that Goce Delchev was certainly a member of BMARC from 1896 to 1902 without presenting any sources, is brutal POV pushing, if not plain vandalism, and I will continue regarding it as such. I
367:
FlavrSavr, I'll look this discussion. It is strange for me why you (you or Ivica) didn't provide any evidence in MK wikipedia when I asked you for this. I hope that you pointed here the concrete source for this eveidence - literature (archive, maybe). If you didn't, please do it (I hope that the
3279:
Francis, most sources do refer to this organization by the later name IMRO (or VMRO) at whatever period. No one claims that it was called that before 1902; some people (mosly from FYROM) say it was called SMARO (or TMORO), and others say that it was called BMARC (or BMORK). Do you have a source
1676:
There's not even the slightest mentioning of the "Bulgarian national conciousness" of it's original members, and instead it is specifically stressed that their slogan was "Macedonian for the Macedonians", and that what is really important about it, according to the widely accepted international
1618:
It is very clear that by avoiding the real name of the organization which Goce Delchev joined, BMARC, one must be aiming to dillute the importance of the Bulgarian consciousness of its members. IMRO is a collective name for a host of different organizations and that is mentioned in the article,
986:
According to the paragraph of "Ethnicity of Goce Delchev," the sentence in the beginning of the article: "He is considered an ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia." is simply not true. Who is "He" considered by? Macedonians say he is Macedonian, Bulgarian say his Bulgarian, but in the
967:
This is simply because in Ottoman Turkey the only two legal orthodox churches were the Greek and the Bulgarian church, and the censuses were conducted according to the religion; for instance, there were no Turks or Albanians, only Muslim; there were no Serbs in Kosovo, but 531000 Bulgarians are
763:
2. Why do you think the Macedonians in Albania and Greece (and until the 1950's in Bulgaria) declare themselves as Macedonians, not Bulgarians, since they were not influenced by the so called Serb communist propaganda in the past 60 years? The same goes for the Macedonians in Australia, USA and
753:
I have no intention to enter this ridiculous "editing war", I'm just irritated by the lies spread by the Bulgarians! Who in his right mind can tell 2 million people that they have been wrong all their life, that they in fact are not Macedonians but Bulgarian, that all of their parents and grand
1352:
This is completely sick! Bulgarian nationalists do anything they want. The letter where Goce says "we are all Bulgarians, what can we do" is not authentic at all. It may be written by any kid in Bulgaria, though. There are many other letters from Goce where he clearly makes distinction between
1252:
Every year thousands of Macedonians from Pirin Macedonia go visit the grave of Jane Sandanski in the Rožen Monastery; and yet, every year they are not allowed to even come near the grave. Some years they were even beaten by the police and Bulgarian nationalist like you. Not to mention that the
1400:
In fact, it IS very strange (because of course Bulgarian nationalists won't let it), but they did record. There are some letters where Austrains and English wrote that there are many people in the region of Macedonia claiming to be different from the Bulgarians, Greeks and Serbs and they call
4146:
in Macedonian - Ете како ја објаснува целта на борбата Гоце Делчев во 1901 година: "...Треба да се бориме за автономноста на Македанија и Одринско, за да ги зачуваме во нивната целост, како еден етап за идното им присоединување кон општата Болгарска Татковина". In English - How Gotse Delchev
2045:
I'm adding a couple of documents in the appropriate section. It's a bit vulgar that both sides in the dispute flash around their documents in the article, but the reader might get a wrong impression that Goce Delchev never spoke of "Macedonian people". Perhaps we should add the documents on
1900:
General statements, such as the opening paragraph, should be put under the "IMRO" label because that is basically the only term that is widely used in the English language, while the others are rather obscure to the average reader. Such patterns are followed in the Macedonian and Bulgarian
441:
Could you please provide sources where Goce Delchev determines himself as Macedonian, rather than describing the cause he is fighting for? The letter of Malashevski to Delchev has little value here, especially when Delchev refers to himself as bulgarian in another letter. Any comments?
4005:
During his tour of Western Macedonia, where on each step he had to confer with Grecomans and Vlachs (sic!), he showed the complete charm of an honest speaker and the attraction of one enlightened sould, because both Grecomans and Vlachs met him as a wanted guest and saw him off like a
1984:
statement that Delchev originally said, which later turned out to be a quote from a fantasy novel, if you want to use that, you'll have to tell where you got it. Back to the point, I think some kind of NPOV compromise should be worked out - this revert war could continue indefinitely.
722:
Bulgarian historians argue that the Macedonian autonomy was never meant to have an "ethnic Macedonian" nature and note that no distinction between a "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian" existed at that time pointing to the use of "Adrianopolitan" alongside "Macedonian" in the documents of the
2623:
People who were not allowed to have an organization as a means to implement their shrewd intentions, people, who were not allowed to trade with our tears and with our blood for accomplishing their low aims - these people are against us, against the organization, against the whole
4442:
Do you really think that you can tell the sense? If there are no sources - there are no sources; if there are sources - the sources are untrustworthy; if the sources are trustworthy - they meant something else, something the Bulgarian POV says they meant. When will this end?!
529:
No, that's not my opinion. It is logical and that's the way it was. Are you denying that he wanted to live in free and independent Macedonia? Free and independent Macedonia with Bulgarians? Gimme a break. The sources are his statements, including the ,,pro-Bulgarian" one.
1011:, quite the opposite, on numerous occasions he tries to describe himself as a Macedonian, a citizen of a state that didn’t exist then, that was enslaved by the Ottoman Empire; a state that is his fatherland for which he fought for and at the end he gave his life for.
1044:
Where are the so-called Macedonian minorities? No one has ever spoken to any of them or met any of them (except their one or two representatives - their political parties). They seem only to exist on paper (and on the internet) and this is exactly because they do.
4340:
INkubusse, why slavs people in Macedonia aren't Macedonians (why before one century did't have Macedonians in the World??!!), why they aren't Serbians, Montenegrians, Russians, Croations. Why all national hereos of Republic of Macedonia defined themself like
3124:
I have searched several archives of the scholarly literature and have found only 1 mention of "BMORK"/"BMARC" etc. This was in Hugh Poulton's book. It features as an unreferenced footnote. It seems strange that such an important point should be left out of
4127:
According to some historians, Delchev opposed military intervention of the Bulgarian state in Macedonia. On the other hand, as of 1901 he had also embraced the idea of a common Macedonian and Adrianople autonomous region, based on the 23th article of the
349:
also misleading. We have no insight of his "conciousness", but we do have insight of his deeds. None of his actions was directed towards the accomplishment of a Greater Bulgarian state. The both views are presented fairly, so the NPOV, is preserved. --
1286:
there were c. 350,000 Greeks and c. 246,000 Bulgarians in Bitola/Monastir. What has happened to them, where are they today? I'm guessing they were "erradicated" as well. Good luck in explaining why "Macedonians" don't show up in that census as well.
2579:
The first impression from Delchev was that he was clean and uncorrupted, but also a man of action. His speach was quite literary so not everybody understood him. The people always said: he speaks very well alright but what exactly - we couldn't
479:
Another thing, he might not have fought for Bulgaria, which is true. Bulgaria was not under Turkish rule unlike Macedonia. However, he based his operations primarily in Bulgaria, and the country was of crucial importance to his organization.
3032:
I'm an ethnic Adrianopolitan :) Not really, no... Not that I have anything against the Tatars, but I have little to do with them, sorry. I'm as much a Tatar as you're a descendant of Alexander the Great. And in fact, you probably know that
4607:
When we, the Slavs, say "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" we refer only to the Slavic population which originates/d from the region of Macedonia.In this case saying Macedonian I ment only the Slavs from the region, not the Greeks.Sorry for the
731:
2574:Първото впечатление отъ Дeлчева бeше, че той е чистъ и непороченъ, а при туй решителенъ човeкъ. Той говорeше доста литературно та не всички го разбираха. Хората все питаха: аджаба хубаво говори, ама какво, не можахме всичко да разберемъ.
1926:
rather various other conclusions. It is also questionable whether Macedonian refers to ethnicity or geographical area. And by the way, the statute of BMARC was worked out in the Solun congress of 1896 by Goce Delchev and Gjorche Petrov.
282:
Perhaps I now understand what you want to say. Before discussing the substance of your suggestion, let me express my unease with true-but-negative statements in general, as your suggestion is of this nature. It is very easy to say that
1855:
Several instances of "SMARO" appear throughout the letter, and it is pretty clear that: "the Secret organisations, that carries the name SMARO is the biggest enemy of the peace in this part of the world", that is, SMARO is IMARO.
330:
being positively assertive is better value, in particular for wikipedia readers. There is little value in figuring out what something is not, as the "not" of most things is an infite list, while the "what is" is finite and useful.
541:
I am not denying any of this. It is clearly in the article. The only thing that I object to is that he considered himself as Macedonian, simply because I cant find any sources. If you have something to present, then present it.
1952:"…It is hard, is it not, Mr. Sarafov, when a man once falls morally in the eyes of the people?... And we promise you that such will continue to be the fate of any of your compatriots who come to Macedonia with pretensions to
2006:
The text comes from brochure by Petar Pop Arsov called "Stambolovism and its Representatives in Macedonia" and it was published in 1/11/1894. I don't think that Bulgarians dispute this document AFIK (FunkyFly?). Here is pic
1198:
Goce Delchev himself said: We must struggle for the autonomy of Macedonia and the district of Adrianople in order to preserve them in their integrity which is a stage to their future incorporation to the common Bulgarian
3892:
If I could see a way to segregate the town from the subject of this article, I would regard the search engine test as no worse than usual. The best I can think of is to include 1903 (the year of his death) which returns
4132:, uniting Macedonians and Adrianopolitans regardless of ethnicity or creed, and also opposed to the direct involvement of the Bulgarian state authorities in the liberational struggle in Macedonia and Adrianople areas
689:
Consensuses are not binding by any means. I dont know what the bulgarian article has to do with this discussion. The arguing side simply has not provided sources where Goce Delchev refers to himself as "Macedonian".
1872:
in the opening section? a little bit biased, no?) . As I've already stated, it is likely that IMRO was named "BMARC" at a given period in the organization's history (perhaps, somewhere in the begginings), but it's
987:"Ethnicity of Goce Dlechev", it states that he considered himself as Bulgarian ethnically. So how is "He is considered an ethnic Macedonian in the Republic of Macedonia." a fact? The article is contracting itself.
4104:
I would like to hear what both parties engaged in edit warring make a statement in support of their position. Meanwhile, I am going to move the passage in question to the talk page so that it can be edited here.
601:
Gimme a double break! Would you like to give you a source in which he says: ,,??? was my first fiancee?!" In that sentence, "Bulgarian" can have several meanings, and not strictly ethnicity (gosh, you people!).
3374:– "Gotse Delchev" is the preferred name according to the google test - general google search reveals about 2.5 more hits, google scholar reveals about 5 times more hits than "Goce Delchev". Also, according to
1893:
All his revolutionary activities before 1898 should be put under the SMARO label, as well, ("BMARC/SMARO"), or simply, under the "IMRO" label, the most commonly used name for the organization in English (see
1032:
No Macedonian ethnicity existed at that time. The Macedonian ethnicity was created by Tito in the 1940s, a very easy thing to do to a largely illiterate population (witness the Moldovans, a similar example).
4478:
I am stating all the Images in this channel show Goce as a "Bulgarian" while ignoring trustworthy articles like the New York Times, stating he was "Macedonian"... at this point the article is Bulgarian POV
3661:(edit conflict) We should be especially cautious here, since Delchev's ethnicity is (clearly) controversial. It may be odd to have a man's article and the town named for him spelt differently, but consider
1024:
We must struggle for the autonomy of Macedonia and the district of Adrianople in order to preserve them in their integrity which is a stage to their future incorporation to the common Bulgarian fatherland.
1215:
illiterate. One of them, born 1913, even had a faculty degree from the Economic faculty in Sofia. Yet, neither he, neither my other grandfather, never called themselves Bulgarians (nor Serbs), but always
1790:
is nowadays labeled a terrorist organisation from many representatives of the Christian states, firstly because of the ignorance of our struggle, and secondly because of the personal interests of their
4147:
explained the aim of the strugle against Ottomans in 1903: "...We have to fight for authonomie of Macedonia and Adrianople region as stage for their future unification with the Fatherland - Bulgaria."
150:
4. While everyone's discussion have had an immense educational value (at least for me), from a practical point of view of refining this article I feel we have gotten carried away on several occasions.
3045:
ancestry too (just as much as we Bulgarians are). Thus, by calling the Bulgars' advanced and ancient civilization "Tatar" you insult your own culture and history... and you have no grounds to do so.
2210:(apparent non-Bulgarians), seem to indicate that their view is the correct one. One thing is for sure, the organization name in 1898 (and not in 1902). If you claim the contrary, present sources. --
4396:
I have plenty of Newspapers like New York Times stating Delcev as a "Macedonian" leader and revolutionary. Would it be possible to include those, since the photos seem like the Bulgarian POV only.
923:
This is absolutely not true, a common lie told by the Bulgarians; it's tragic that most of the young Bulgarians actually do believe this! It takes but one visit to Macedonia to find out the truth.
4171:/ and doesn't aspire to give it impulse, influence, i. e. it doesn't meddle in its affairs, only in such case relation between these two organisations could exist."; the document is kept in the
3721:. (The first is still about the Gotse Delchev municipal library.) Another 10,000 or so are not in English, and have no relevance to English usage. I call this clear evidence that the Bulgarian
1666:
a program aimed at winning autonomy for Macedonia from its Ottoman Turkish rulers and at creating a Balkan federation, in which Macedonia would be an equal partner with all other Balkan states.
621:
It is extremely POV what you do FunkyFly. Goce said this himself: „Но тоа е патот за ослободувањето на народите од туѓо иго. По него оделе Грците, Србите, Бугарите. По тој пат треба да одиме и
2206:. According to Macedonian historians, the name in the statute worked out in Thessaloniki is "SMARO", and so far, the sources presented, the conversation with Nikolayev, the large inclusion of
806:
Can there be another place for a Macedonian, but Macedonia? Is there another nation in this world that is more unfortunate than the Macedonians? And is there a wider work field than Macedonia?
2806:
PLEASE. Any argument about this should be banned. And I said "4estit praznik" so that it could be understood by Bulgarians too, but in Macedonia they say Srek'en praznik. God be with you! ;)
554:
Those who believe that answer of our national liberation lies in Bulgaria, Serbia or Greece might consider themselves a good Bulgarian, good Serb or a good Greek, but not a good Macedonian.
3830:
But I don't; I simply observe that you haven't shown that the person is spelled like the town in Bulgaria rather than the town in FYROM. (Britannica excepted; but that's one data point.)
3129:
on the matter. Perhaps the sign of a great anti-Bulgarian conspiracy — I don't know, but I hardly think that a single footnote in a book outweighs the countless other sources available. -
1156:
Again my friend, we are talking about his origin, his self-determination, not his intentions to secure freedom for the peoples of Macedonia. And both are clearly reflected in the article.
4558:
Yes, it`s a good idea the article of NYT to be included in the article because it clearly shows that Macedonian was equal to Bulgarian from the historical-geographic area of Macedonia.
3235:
So, I've cited four sources (that I have access to, there are probably some others) that state that "The IMRO was founded in 1893". This is not a page about the IMRO, it is a page about
778:
fought for an independent Kosovo - that doesn't stop them being Albanian. He always called himself a Bulgarian - respect his self identification and stop imposing anachronistic labels.
3921:
3918:
4013:
In the name of this struggle Goce invited all Macedonians: Bulgarians and non-Bulgarians (sic!), Christians and non-Christians, old and young, rich and poor, educated and uneducated
4642:
Sign your posts, please (four tildes after post). What I gather from the article is that "Macedonian" was a geographical designation, that's all. Unless you can prove otherwise.
2461:
In the following letter, Goce Delchev, among other topics, expresses his strong opposition to the activities of Doncho Zlatkov, a member of the Supreme Committee, a parallel pro-
516:
Btw your argument reminds me of a Dutch woman, who converted to Islam and went to Iraq to become a suicide bomber. Would you dare claim that she all of a sudden became Iraqui?
2509:
ethnicity. That's a pretty general statement he's making. Plus it is in no way clear if he is talking about the ethnic Macedonians, or the people in the region of Macedonia.
2027:
2680:
continue like that and I believe that someday, perhaps all the history articles will have a satisfactory NPOV (though, to ones who don't know the truth, it's all the same).
1795:
The letter is signed by Gjorgji (Goce) Delchev. There is also a similar letter to the same person (Archibishop Menini, send on 3 July 1898, in which again he is a member of
3317:
Btw it is beyond any doubt that IMRO was not the name of the organization since the beginning, rather a collective name, which was legitimized much later - in 1920 or so.
2202:
This has nothing to do with Goce Delchev being present at the Solun congress, but to say that the name in the statute was "BMARC" worked out there, you'll need to present
1651:
by avoiding the real name of the organization which Goce Delchev joined, BMARC one must be aiming to dillute the importance of the Bulgarian consciousness of its members.
381:
Despoina: As I can see myself, Delcef is considered a hero both in Bulgaria and in FYROM (I can see the images of his statues at the end of the page in both countries).
3560:
Why is that a problem? What exactly is wrong with that? I fail to see your logic. For scholarly citations see the google scholar results, Gosh... Britannica also uses
2643:
taken from "Из архива на Гоце Делчев" - главно управление на архивите при министерския съвет, подготвили за печат Ива Бурилкова и Цочо Билярски, София 2003, page 560
4252:
4027:
The churches and the "supremists" in Macedonia were dividing the people into "българи, гърци и сърби, или по-скоро на българи, гъркомани и сърбомани" (sic!) (p. 10)
3877:
It is clear that the nationality of Delchev is bitterly contested; so the Fooian argument is weaker than usual, even if the Bulgarians have the rights of the matter.
1098:
I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when
4011:"В името на тая борба Гоце канеше всички македонци: българи и не българи (sic!), християни и не християни, стари и млади, бедни и богати, прости и учени." (p. 19) (
3718:
3412:
456:
is mentioned. Independent Macedonia was Goce's ideal, no matter how he proclaimed himself. Maybe he was proclaiming as Bulgarian, but he never fought for Bulgaria.
3416:
1412:
Question to Francis. Fran, you supported a solution of the form "Macedonian and Bulgarian". However you erased the "Bulgarian and Aromanian" solution in place for
816:
It is time for us to stand up and fight. We shouldn't wait for freedom from Greeks, neither from Bulgarians, but we Macedonians should fight for our Macedonia, ...
774:
I'm sorry, but Goce Delchev never described himself as anything other than Bulgarian. He may have fought for Macedonia, but that doesn't make him Macedonian. The
675:
On a more personal note, I'm surprised that the Bulgarian side opened the edit war again, such frivolous POV pushing on his ethnicity is not allowed even in the
267:
The defenders of Bulgarian belonging of Goce Delchev emphasize that there aren't evidences that Goce Delchev had any other ethnic consciousness except Bulgarian
4251:
Calling other editors deceptive is not helping you at all. Please, try to remain civil and continue discussing not that hotly. I've already told you about the
2656:
This is a very neat example, both bolded parts summarize the idea well. Would it be possible to scan it (if it's a facsimile), so we could use it as a source?
834:
Are you sure the first one is not from a novel? The second one says that Nikola Karev thought of himself as Macedonian, but does not say anything about Goce.
4657:
I`m new here and still not aware of the procedures and rules of Knowledge.Could you tell me how to sign my comments or to give me link when it`s explained?--
654:
There was a consensus on this article's opening lines until some guys started POV pushing. This was done mainly by me (representing the Macedonian POV) and
3551:
They share the same problem: eight of the first ten are for the town. I would like to see (for example) citations of histories of IMRO written in English.
1304:
Read carefully! Go back a few posts here, around the middle of this section, where you'll see the same link as you provided and you'll see the explanation!
3106:
you, you do not choose to learn fictionary history, though. And I plead you not to offend me anymore. Thank you. iNkubz (i don't feel like signing in :) )
1140:
OK, maybe the Macedonian national conscience was not (or very little) developed in that period. But, I think it is very POV-ish to state that Goce was a
272:
Further, If somebody wants to know more, he can read the literature of the epoch and to form his own, real neutral oppinion. Ragards, Anton Keckarov, --
3894:
2601:
Circular letter from the Central Revolutionary Macedonian-Adrianople Committee to the Secret Revolutionary Macedonian-Adrianople committees - June 1902
1851:
Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Indice della Ponenza di Luglio 1898, Somm. II, 8, f. 4 - 18 - Разгледи, XIII/9-10 (1971), 980-982.
1804:
Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Indice della Ponenza di Luglio 1898, Somm. II, 8, f. 4 - 18 - Разгледи, XIII/9-10 (1971), 978-980.
4518:
Ok. I, as a Wikipedian, don't have problems with anyone being called whatever. However, I, as a Wikipedian, am greatly disturbed when someone ignores
3898:
1868:
As no evidence was given to support the claim that Goce Delchev was a member of an organization called "BMARC", I don't see any need to emphasize it (
1859:
Given the above said, I'm uploading the SMARO statute as parallel to the BMARC statute, and I'm expecting that you will provide the sources above. --
4183:
4172:
3935:
A reasonable idea, but several of the articles on the town turn up in that search; three in the first ten. "1903" produced fewer false positives.
3390:
1704:
I stay reserved for BMARC because it's really unknown in what particular period of IMRO's history was that name/statute used. However, I would urge
3386:
2132:
there is absolutely no evidence, nor a source has been provided to state that the organization's name was BMARC between 1896 and 1902 specifically.
1257:
There is no evidence of a separate Macedonian ethnicity prior to the 1940s... Where are the Macedonians? Don't say ancient Macedon, that's rubbish.
1124:
If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans...
1104:
If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans...
4672:
4157:й се бърка в нейните работи, само в такъв случай може да съществува връзка между тия две организации.", НБКМ — БИА, ф. 224, а. е. 8, л. 602, also
3220:
Spyridon KOTSOVILIS "Exploring the Sources of Greek Foreign Policy Towards the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" (this is a symposium paper)
868:
Also, you are welcomed in Skopje to visit the National Museum of Macedonia, where you can see it in original (open every day 09-17, exept monday).
4623:
I didn't express what you, "the Slavs" think (nor do I care). I mentioned what the NYT might have meant. No misunderstanding on my part, at all.
704:. If you look carefully, at that version (and at the current version), you will see, above Delchev's picture, the words български революционер.
3401:
1877:
unknown when that period was, and there are only speculations about it. One thing is for sure, the organization's name was SMARO from at least
3397:
1943:
Wasn't Petar Pop-Arsov one of the founder of of VMORO/SMARO/BMARC? If VMORO was such a Bulgarian organization, how come he wrote this in 1894:
1664:. Now, not only Goce Delchev fought under the slogan "Macedonians for the Macedonians", it has also adopted (excerpts from the full article):
3978:
I checked it against the original book (cited in the References section in the article) and it is false. In particular, nowhere is the word
899:
am Macedonian. Of course he wouldn't - the Macedonian ethnicity hadn't been invented then by Tito. To call him Macedonian is an anachronism.
245:
new evidence or references introduced. I trust you can enlighten us with your insights. Thank you and I look forward to your contribution. --
4077:
Ok. To whoever wants to revert - I tried to make a compromise version. Try not to erase the other changes which I made, this is not nice.
3158:"In September 1901 one of those groups, the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation, seized and held for ransom Ellen M. Stone..."
1766:
Here are my sources (to be honest, I didn't expect to find such an explicit statement that GD was the leader of SMARO, not BMARC in 1898)
3874:
I oppose the argument "He's Fooian, and the Fooians spell it that way" even about, for example, the use of ß in unarguably German names.
1380:
I guess westerners travelling in the region in the 19th century were forging their results too, because nobody recorded any Macedonians.
701:
4213:
2762:"Честит празник" is as much in Macedonian as in Bulgarian, so thanks, it's a nice and well celebrated holiday here too. Note that's not
947:
Just like every official census up until 1912 or so showed no macedonians at all, rather a mix of bulgarians, greeks, turks and others.
556:" This can be stated only by a person who feels like Macedonian as equal as he feels as Bulgarian in other statement. It's simply NPOV.
2124:
There is absolutely no evidence, nor a source has been provided to state that Goce Delchev was a member of organization called "BMARC".
4573:
1416:. Does that or does that not mean you really support the dual nationality solution, or does it mean you're just being inconsistent?
4553:
3643:
isn't quite comprehensible to a native English speaker... I would think it would be pronounced by someone unaware of the system.
3666:
425:
398:
1369:
3113:
Oh, and the article about Macedonism is simply.. ridiculous and everything I can say about it is *****. LOL DUDES! u're insane
4613:
3205:
And whats the point of this? The way it is worded now it says according to some historians this, and according to some that.
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As for him being considered macedonian in the rep. of macedonia - that represents the viewpoint of a minority of historians.
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There's no reason why the name of the town should be spelled the same way as the name of the revolutionary it is named after
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The spelling of the actual revolutionary, as far as I can tell from the search engines, appears to be about evenly divided.
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Their bear den is in Sofia, the field of their abominable deeds is in our Macedonian and Adrianople mountains and villages.
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and note that no such distinction existed at that time while explaining that the current use of the term can be problematic.
1674:, however, IMRO's indiscriminate and unprincipled use of terror had alienated both its Macedonian and Bulgarian supporters.
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1980:, a notorious Macedonist site. That is a significant statement, and has significant implications - unless it is like the
1470:. I think it would be a good idea. Regarding "dual nationality" you are right, I've restored the dual nationality bit on
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Canada: why don't the Macedonians there declare themselves as Bulgarians, since most of them are there since the 1960's?
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Um... Flavrsavr, you made this comment at 21:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC). At the same time, the article you linked to was at
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4033:"При него и българинът, и влахът, и гъркът, и албанецът, даже и турчинът - всички се чувствуваха като братя..." (p. 26)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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registration of the Macedonian political parties is still forbidden. They are there - you just don't want to see them.
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He is defined as "Macedonian" mostly in the regional, not ethnic sense, therefore the regional category proposition.
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The Macedonian ethnicity was created by Tito in the 1940s, a very easy thing to do to a largely illiterate population
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Terrorism in the Age of Roosevelt: The Miss Stone Affair, 1901-1902, by Randall B. Woods American Quarterly © 1979
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As far as I know, modern Bulgarians (and most Macedonians a.k.a. Western Bulgarians :p) won't have any significant
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All his revolutionary activities after 1898 should be put under the SMARO label, or simply, under the "IMRO" label.
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2620:, who stand in the way of the organization, who want to stop its right way, who wish and act for its destruction.
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And then there is a specific reference with partial translation and picture of his letter to Nikola Maleshevski -
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This would require more evidence. Google is particularly bad here, since most of the hits for Gotse appear to be
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Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
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OK, I relent with the last source. It is unnecessary to ref a subsection of the article, so can you erase ref 2?
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3041:'s brother, settled in what is today the Republic of Macedonia together with his people, so you're partially of
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wikisource, while we could add here that in a particular letter (link to wikisource), GD speaks of (subject). --
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I've explained that above, care to read. "Bulgarian committees" is not the name of the organization. Moreover,
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This is exactly what is wrong with this article, written by a Bulgarian trying to spread Bulgarian propaganda.
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That is simply your opinion, which is not by any means NPOV. Provide sources that he identified as Macedonian.
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Bulgarian (on which I have no opinion, except that controversial claims are a bad basis for naming articles.)
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Please change the "Macedonians" link so that it links to a real article, not a disambiguation page. Thanks. --
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Yes, I really have a POV on whether this guy was Bulgaronian or Macedarian. I thought you knew? I get all my
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So, is it possible that you have made an another epochal discovery, like the "parallel statutes" theory? --
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Claiming that Goce Delchev was an ethnic Bulgarian or ethnic Macedonian cannot be anything else other that
3615:. I'm not aware of any official transliteration system of Macedonian, but in Yugoslav times it used to be
2857:"Macedonian people" and "Macedonian-Adrianopolitan people" are as much an ethnic identifier as the later "
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1002:...but in the "Ethnicity of Goce Dlechev", it states that he considered himself as Bulgarian ethnically...
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This is definitely not true. The conducted censuses in Albania during Enver Hoxa (before 1990) counted a
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Goce, Dame and Pere "се чувствуваха като българи" because they had studied in Bulgarian schools. (p. 11)
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If you really think about it, all what you want to advance is already there, just formulated positively.
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When you look at it in positive language, you can go back to the article and find that it already reads:
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For now, Britannica states that he fought for "Macedonia for the Macedonians". No one sane claims that
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As you can see, the ethnicity is determined primarily by the religion and the church someone attended!
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numbered!?!? You can see the results from the last census in the European part of Ottoman Turkey here
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the statute of BMARC was worked out in the Solun congress of 1896 by Goce Delchev and Gjorche Petrov.
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This is simply not true: everyone that understands the language can see that in the Statute of IMARO
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So the Solun congress never took place and Goce was not there, and he did not work out the statute?
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The town is named after the revolutionary figure and the name should be spelled the same. Also see
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This statement of Goce says much more than the pro-Bulgarian part. The other part of the sentence (
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I look forward to your comments and encourage you to create your user page. BTW, have you seen the
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The other citation isn't sourced in the quoted site and its relevance is really disputable. Mr. -
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I am certainly persuadable; but it will take more than this to do it. The Britannica is a start.
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occupiers during WW2? I don't think that there is a force in the world that can do that overnight!
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I'd think as a compromise we can have "Revolunitionaries from the region of Macedonia" category.
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My point is using artbitrary restrictions you can always sway the results in one way or another.
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Unsurprisingly you've come and made a fool of yourself. Stop nationalising all over the place. -
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Enclosed to this letter are the two letters which I have received from the representative of the
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2478:...Not only the news about the capture (if of course, true) are dismaying, but Doncho with his
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It is interesting to note (regarding the language Goce spoke) the excerpt from the memoirs of
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There is a possibility for it, but until it is proven, we can only operate under the realm of
225:== Hi semi-anon AKeckarov! I have reverted your edit in order to put it here for discussion:
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today this is a dubious proposition. Would you like to propose an alternative text? Cheers, --
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1. I have tried my best to incorporate and bring coherence to sometimes differing suggestions.
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And you still haven't answered my 2 questions from the beginning? Or you don't have answers?
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is in ruins. I presume the second one was Delchev's death place, but are there any sources?
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However there is no evidence that Goce Delchev had any other consciousness except Bulgarian.
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Its irrelevant if the revolutionary identified as Bulgarian (as a matter of fact the only
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H. N. Brailsford , MACEDONIA: ITS RACES AND THEIR FUTURE, Methuen & Co., London, 1906
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This is also not true! Can you tell me in which letter does Goce call himself a Bulgarian?
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1. Why do you think Bulgaria was considered as an occupier during the I and II World War?
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OK, I've added the documents, and I've made some changes in the structure of the text. --
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terminology, as well (see the WP articles). Of course, clarifications should be made. --
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A letter from Archibishop Menini to the Holy Congregation for the Propaganda of the Faith
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Clearly, he wouldn't write to him "we Macedonians" if he thought that Goce was Bulgarian!
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Who said so? It's the only valid assertion in support of this move, as far as it goes.
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There is an unfortunate edit war going on here. I would like to suggest the following:
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As far as I'm concerned, he's Bulgarian from Macedonia. Note the absence of a link to
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footnote 1 - K. Pandev holds the opinion that author of the circular is Peyo Yavorov.
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He declared as one, so yes. Also you dont seem to be convinced by the yahoo results.
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The dispute is different thing. I will support a statemnt of the form, X is ] and ].
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Because I can quote 2 letters from his correspondence that can be found in Macedonia:
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obliged to listen our Balkan wrangles. I'll see the Ohrid article, thanks for idea.
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3. If anyone has issues with the current version can we agree to proceed as follows:
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4175:, the Bulgarian Historical Archive department, fund 224, archive unit 8, page 602).
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is much more awful. Who knows if there is a people that has suffered more from its
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What a joyful edit war. Work it out on the talk page, then request unprotection. -
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This is actualy one of the most famous quotes from Goce, perhaps just as famous as
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there is no evidence that Goce Delchev had any other consciousness except Bulgarian
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no word for ethnic Macedonians, Greeks, Serbs, Albanians or other non-Bulgarians.
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there is a solid proof that the operational name of the organization was SMARO in
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Hits on the town are not hits on Delchev himself; what part of this do you deny?
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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I'd like to noe that the correct transliteration of Bulgarian according to the
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1604:- PRO. - FO 78/4951. Turkey (Bulgaria). From Elliot. 1898; УСТАВ НА ТМОРО. S.I.
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know it today exists at least since 1555, when their first book was published (
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I understand the world solely as a field for cultural competition among nations
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3619:. Macedonian transliteration is quite a mess at the moment, you can see it as
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No Turks in Turkey? No Serbs in Kosovo? No Albanians? Come on, think about it!
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http://www.univ.trieste.it/~storia/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg
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I deny your insisting the town and the person should be spelled differently.
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There are two places called Banitsa in the Serres Prefecture, one is today's
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from that of the revolutionary (no first name), unlike the one in Bulgaria.
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The town in the Republic of Macedonia appears to be normally transliterated
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Delchev. If you want to discuss the various names of the IMRO, do it on the
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1282:- while you're at it, why don't you explain the following: according to the
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3635:. The phonetic transcription would be in both languages. Also, the "c" in
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There has been no discussion on this for over a week. I'm unprotecting. --
1799:. I'm too lazy at the moment to translate the SMARO parts of that letter).
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However, there is evidence that Goce Delchev had a Bulgarian consciousness.
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Position of Gotse Delchev on the liberation of Macedonia from Ottoman Rule
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Stop reverting! Lets put the changes one by one to avoid edit conflicts!.
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that relates to his nationality, if it is something other than Bulgarian.
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The statement that is proposed for addition in the ethnicity section is:
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page. Although that page is looking kind of like a quagmire as it is. -
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In the paragraph "Ethnicity of Goce Delchev" there is a line that says:
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Turns out, this quote is actually from a novel, and Goce never said it.
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You mean you have a POV on the issue and you protected the page? ;-) --
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One thing is the turkish documents, which say he was the leader of the
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it is clearly written that the goal of the organization is to liberate
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2268:. The source you have provided celebrates the murder of Goce Delchev.
310:"In some of his correspondence he discribed himself as a Bulgarian..."
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1589:(nobody denies that he fought for an autonomous Macedonian state). --
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One more article of NYT, showing the Bulgarian character of Delchev:
2130:. Of course, there is a "BMARC" statute over there, but then again,
1126:) allude us that actually there were people who were identifying as
1040:(that explains the fact that they got more votes outside Macedonia).
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1. A letter from Goce Delcev to Dame Gruev (1894) in which he says:
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locate and cut'n'paste contentious article text into the discussion
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And that, which is known maybe by very few of us - that there are
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658:(representing the Bulgarian POV), after an extensive discussion -
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Hope this explains why I deleted that passage from the article. (
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known self-reference to his ethnicity, so Bulgarian should stay.
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we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease!
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The problem that my sugestion can eventually solve is only one -
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the Supreme Macedono-Adrianopolitan Organisation, based in Sofia
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My position here is that there is, as yet, no argument to move.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.
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And what is the thing that makes you push the ethnic principle?
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http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevis/2003/sonce448/Tekst40.htm
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states he was Macedonian, and that's all. No need to interpret
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To the Holy Congregation for the Propaganda of the Faith Rome
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The so-called Macedonian minority in Greece is also fabricated.
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Knowledge:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages#How_to_sign_your_posts
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Thats a completely arbitrary search. Why not "19th century"?
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Yes, the truth hurts sometimes, but denying it always helps.
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there is no evidence that GD slept in anything else but a bed
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2. This discussion has become too long: should we archive it?
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just because they don't like it. (what else than period?) --
4161:(in Bulgarian; in English: "Only if the local organization /
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was not a competing organisation to BMARC, IMARO, and IMRO,
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It's better than the current version, however, sounds a bit
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ancestry, as the Tatars are descendents of the Bulgars (in
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As for, "the competing organizations", you must be joking.
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The first one is talking in the abstract - he doesn't say
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90000 vs 3000 total usage outside wikipedia is irrelevant
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The Bulgarian town appears to be normally transliterated
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To His Excellency The Archibishop of Plovdiv Mr. Mennini
4143:Таjните на Македониjа.Се издава за прв пат, Скопjе 1999
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Let me make it clear. You have no sources to state that
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Plovdiv Holy Archibishopry no. 398 12 july 1898 Plovdiv
1585:- he's definitely more relevant as a revolutionary from
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Or maybe it means "person from the region of Macedonia
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saying that it was called SMARO then, and not BMARC? --
2152:(at least four years before 1902), as presented above.
2073:? I happen to live there, but I have a lowsy camera. --
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A statute of BMARC with Goce Delchev's signature on it.
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Your suggestion can be positively reformulated to read:
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Milena Mahon "The Macedonian question in Bulgaria" in
2749:. There are quotes where he says "We the Bulgarians".
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I don't think that would present much of a problem. -
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related articles. Any thoughts/comments/complaints? --
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Please fix link in "Ethnicity of Goce Delchev" section
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Btw, see my comments above about starting an article
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the way, yes, I'm bulgarian (living in Bulgaria);)))
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include this information it is quite interesting. -
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Has anyone have a picture of Goce Delchev's tomb in
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Gjorgji Delchev related to the given favors to some
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A letter from Goce Delchev to the Archibishop Menini
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who fought for freedom of the peoples in Macedonia.
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Hi Modi! Thanks for your atention to my suggestion.
4588:"? In any case, I doubt one can make a case for an
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Talk:Internal_Macedonian_Revolutionary_Organization
1976:The only source on the internet with that quote is
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THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT, and NOT YOUR PROPAGANDA.
754:parents have lied to them for some unknown reason!
4204:Category:Macedonian revolutionaries (ethnic group)
3142:"Other sources" is a weasel word. What sources? --
4165:/ approves the spirit of the inner organisation /
4054:If anyone is interested in the truth please read
3378:"Gotse Delchev" is the correct transliteration.
1889:, as the Bulgarian historians claim. Given that:
637:Any sources, correspondence etc to back this up?
588:himself bulgarian and that stays in the article.
420:of the place where Delchev died, so it is indeed
407:I just did some research, but with no success. --
90:Please do not practice fly-by and anonymous edits
3227:Atlas of Eastern Europe in the Twentieth Century
3970:I removed the following text from the article:
3750:Ok so lets summarize why you are not convinced:
2952:The Macedonian. It really does get tiresome. -
1577:to me. I would also suggest that we should put
1009:Goce Delčev nowhere states that he is Bulgarian
677:Bulgarian Knowledge article about Goce Delchev
4021:And here are a few more quotes from the book:
2457:Letter from Goce Delchev to Nikola Maleshevski
1649:Hm.. it's really your own POV that as you say
1486:It's a triple nationality now, to be precise.
1248:Where are the so-called Macedonian minorities?
812:2. A letter from Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev:
1714:A proof that the BMARC statute was used from
1274:There is no Aegean and Pirin Macedonia. Only
767:Get a life, stop telling others how to live!
8:
3997:) Here is what can be read on p. 18 and 19:
2430:Again, this was discussed before. It is the
3764:86 vs 16 scholarly usage is also irrelevant
2026:Please see my comments on those letters in
4056:http://faq.macedonia.org/history/goce.html
2637:НБКМ БИА, ф. 305, а.е. 260, л.50. печатно
2256:even according to the Bulgarian historians
4392:Newspapers stating Delcev is "Macedonian"
3905:produces similar, but smaller, results.)
3717:30,000 of those 90,000 can be removed by
2878:Also see another "non-existing" quote by
1838:Secret Macedonian-Adrianople Organisation
742:and the region of and around Adrianople (
4550:@Mactruth Do really mean New York Times?
4184:SS. Cyril and Methodius National Library
4173:SS. Cyril and Methodius National Library
2618:compatriots of ours in Bulgaria and here
1881:(evident from the documents above), and
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3704:You call 90000 vs 3000 evenly divided?
3356:Gotse Delchev, per above consensus poll
3262:Looks like someone did their homework.
2320:Do you think you could stick a POV tag
1779:Foreign representation of SMARO Sofia
1462:Actually I suggested a similar idea to
108:Suggestions for edits 1-4 done (I hope)
3243:page. Not this one. I'd hope the IMRO
1468:Bulgarian-Macedonian ethnicity dispute
1203:Just where exactly did Goce say that?
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
3525:This begs the question of whether he
3188:is a genuine Macedonian organisation
2469:. Stressed words as in the original.
714:The disputed ethnicity of Goce Delčev
186:I wish everyone a good weekend, too.
7:
2927:Who are you directing this towards?
2258:, the name of the organization was
1094:Letter from Delchev to Malashevski:
452:I think is neutral enough that only
4182:The relevance of the document from
2505:Yet it does not say anything about
625:, за да се ослободиме од Турците.“
4592:Macedonian designation back then.
4255:, haven't I. Try using it, too. --
1657:, you can check the article about
1060:were certainly aware of them; the
858:Yes, I'm 100% sure that it's true.
160:establish the issue of the remains
24:
4208:What is so unclear? This article
3851:The name of the town in FYROM is
3696:Neither of these can be decisive.
3186:Bulgarian Revolutionary Committee
171:Have a nice weekend everybody! --
132:establish a discussion subheading
4612:
4552:
3667:Alexander Ypsilantis (1725-1805)
3611:system used most of the time is
3229:By R. J. Crampton, Ben Crampton
2486:, than the Macedonian people!...
1755:Sources that GD was a member of
1510:Some people are born lucky :) -
1130:then (I mean Macedonian Slavs).
312:... is this not almost the same?
29:
3015:Hahaha, Bulgarian = Tatar. See
2766:, at least not deliberately :)
2099:modern neutral reliable sources
1737:I'm adding my sources below. --
1708:to find the following sources:
3719:taking out tourism and tourist
2626:Macedonian-Adrianoplean people
2609:Macedonians and Adrianopleans!
2491:Гоце Делчев, Преписка, 43 – 44
1085:Even stronger one is this one:
865:you can read it in macedonian.
141:propose an alternative wording
1:
4384:08:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
4359:08:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
4068:03:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
3982:mentioned. Instead, it says
3777:Britannica is not important.
3354:The result of the debate was
3293:As I said, discuss it on the
1036:in the Republic of Macedonia.
4336:00:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
4308:00:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
4299:00:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
4275:23:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
4247:23:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
4235:23:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
4044:22:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
3995:22:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
3792:Sounds too good to be true.
3072:), not the other way round.
2587:04:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
2035:04:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
1702:it is the same organization!
1439:(which does not redirect to
1016:This is getting ridiculous:
223:"However there aren't...etc"
138:explain what your problem is
3953:01:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3940:01:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3931:01:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3910:21:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3888:21:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3864:01:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3835:01:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3826:01:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3813:21:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3801:21:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3785:01:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
3734:21:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3713:21:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3674:20:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3656:14:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3597:17:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
3573:21:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3556:21:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3547:20:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3534:20:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3521:20:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3500:20:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3479:14:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
3459:23:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
3431:23:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
3363:18:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
3077:10:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
3058:10:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
2274:. The telegram was send on
1190:This is getting ridiculous:
1020:Goce Delchev himself said:
660:Talk:Goce_Delchev/Archive_1
4701:
3966:Removal of false quotation
3413:"Gotse Delchev" -wikipedia
3402:"Gotse Delchev" -wikipedia
3391:"Gotse Delchev" -wikipedia
3326:17:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3305:17:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3285:17:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3271:17:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3255:17:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3214:16:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3172:16:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3147:16:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3137:16:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
3028:20:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
2987:20:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
2960:17:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
2936:16:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
2923:16:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
2891:23:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
2874:21:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
2852:20:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
2811:19:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
2779:21:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
2758:20:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
2725:20:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
2694:Macedonians (ethnic group)
2669:21:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
1842:Macedonian revolutionaries
1225:the Republic of Macedonia.
1211:Both my grandfathers were
695:22:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
684:21:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
671:21:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
642:19:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
630:17:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
607:19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
593:19:33, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
561:19:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
547:19:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
535:19:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
521:19:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
512:19:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
499:19:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
485:19:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
475:19:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
461:18:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
447:14:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
429:15:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
412:08:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
402:00:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
190:13:19, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
4199:17:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
4110:16:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
4094:16:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
4082:16:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
3510:Romanization of Bulgarian
3417:"Goce Delchev" -wikipedia
3398:"Goce Delchev" -wikipedia
3387:"Goce Delchev" -wikipedia
3376:Romanization of Bulgarian
2745:Yes but he means it in a
2705:21:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
2685:21:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
2651:23:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
2554:02:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
2537:01:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
2518:23:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
2498:23:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
2452:23:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
2443:23:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
2421:23:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
1911:This should apply to all
1864:02:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
1813:02:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
1742:02:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
1692:02:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
1682:02:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
1633:00:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
1611:00:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
1594:00:23, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
437:To the macedonian editors
4685:17:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4667:18:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4652:17:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4602:17:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4578:17:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4541:00:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4514:00:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4489:00:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
4470:01:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
4434:01:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
4406:23:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
3774:group he identified as).
3346:Please do not modify it.
2400:19:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2372:19:14, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2355:19:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2339:19:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2330:on the article. I think
2315:19:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2289:03:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
2234:23:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
2215:18:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2186:17:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2169:17:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2139:17:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2117:17:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
2078:06:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
2060:04:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
2051:03:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
2015:17:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
1990:17:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
1964:17:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
1935:17:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
1920:05:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
1906:05:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
1677:neutral point of view.--
1653:"That does not apply to
1562:16:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1541:16:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1515:16:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1498:16:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1479:16:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1455:16:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1428:16:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
1392:20:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
1292:16:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
757:Two questions for them:
373:23:07, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
354:21:58, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
344:17:39, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
319:is there for all to see!
277:16:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
250:15:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
216:18:15, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
202:15:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
176:08:02, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
163:full letter translations
4192:Restore it in the text!
4130:Treaty of Berlin (1878)
3725:is correctly placed at
3415:(about 90,000 hits) vs
3400:(about 54,000 hits) vs
3196:Nations and Nationalism
2106:Petar I Petrović-Njegoš
2041:The "Documents" section
1339:01:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
1329:00:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
1181:16:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1176:Dont sound ridiculous.
1171:15:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1161:15:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1150:14:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1135:14:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1115:13:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
1074:13:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
992:04:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
952:01:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
904:23:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
839:23:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
783:22:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
709:00:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
575:04:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
103:13:46, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
4313:(oh, sorry, of course
3976:
2465:organization based in
2223:. Read at the bottom.
1466:, although calling it
931:no one could cross it!
776:Kosovo Liberation Army
735:
3972:
733:
42:of past discussions.
4305:ForeignerFromTheEast
4244:ForeignerFromTheEast
3727:Gotse Delchev (town)
3493:Gotse Delchev (town)
3404:(about 130,000 hits)
3127:all other literature
2392:from maknews.com! -
2332:WP:NPOV#Undue weight
2221:Bulgarian committies
1557:Sure, thats good. -
1280:Blagoevgrad Province
4190:) is undisputable.
4061:Macedonia forever!
3663:Ypsilanti, Michigan
3450:As per nomination.
3389:(about 16 hits) vs
1284:1911 Ottoman census
1052:), and people like
339:article? Regards --
317:the actual evidence
261:. The true is that
4520:The New York Times
3074:Big Fat Green Frog
1954:‘creating Bulgars’
736:
18:Talk:Gotse Delchev
4608:misunderstanding.
4580:
4564:comment added by
4414:in what sense? --
4343:ethnic Bulgarians
3419:(about 3200 hits)
2270:That happened in
2145:On the contrary,
2093:original research
1978:faq.macedonia.org
1374:
1360:comment added by
155:5. Things to do:
87:
86:
54:
53:
48:current talk page
4692:
4675:. There you go.
4659:BulgarianPatriot
4616:
4559:
4556:
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4270:
4268:
4266:
4232:
4230:
4228:
4226:
4176:
4154:
4148:
4141:
4118:Disputed passage
3950:
3928:
3861:
3823:
3798:
3710:
3570:
3544:
3518:
3456:
3428:
3385:Google scholar:
3381:Google results:
3348:
3323:
3268:
3211:
3025:
2933:
2888:
2882:(the last one).
2849:
2755:
2702:
2534:
2515:
2440:
2329:
2323:
2231:
2183:
1932:
1630:
1628:
1538:
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1495:
1493:
1452:
1450:
1425:
1423:
1408:Dual nationality
1389:
1387:
1373:
1354:
734:Statute of IMARO
623:ние, Македонците
68:
56:
55:
33:
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26:
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4075:
4070:
4052:
3968:
3963:
3948:/FunkyFly.talk_
3946:
3937:Septentrionalis
3926:/FunkyFly.talk_
3924:
3907:Septentrionalis
3885:Septentrionalis
3859:/FunkyFly.talk_
3857:
3832:Septentrionalis
3821:/FunkyFly.talk_
3819:
3810:Septentrionalis
3796:/FunkyFly.talk_
3794:
3782:Septentrionalis
3731:Septentrionalis
3708:/FunkyFly.talk_
3706:
3671:Septentrionalis
3605:
3568:/FunkyFly.talk_
3566:
3553:Septentrionalis
3542:/FunkyFly.talk_
3540:
3531:Septentrionalis
3516:/FunkyFly.talk_
3514:
3497:Septentrionalis
3454:/FunkyFly.talk_
3452:
3438:
3426:/FunkyFly.talk_
3424:
3408:Yahoo results:
3396:Google search:
3393:(about 80 hits)
3344:
3338:
3321:/FunkyFly.talk_
3319:
3266:/FunkyFly.talk_
3264:
3209:/FunkyFly.talk_
3207:
3122:
3023:/FunkyFly.talk_
3021:
2931:/FunkyFly.talk_
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2886:/FunkyFly.talk_
2884:
2847:/FunkyFly.talk_
2845:
2753:/FunkyFly.talk_
2751:
2700:/FunkyFly.talk_
2698:
2677:
2675:JUSTICE AT LAST
2598:
2532:/FunkyFly.talk_
2530:
2513:/FunkyFly.talk_
2511:
2459:
2438:/FunkyFly.talk_
2436:
2428:
2414:
2334:is violated. --
2327:
2321:
2305:
2229:/FunkyFly.talk_
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2181:/FunkyFly.talk_
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2067:
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1930:/FunkyFly.talk_
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1322:
1276:Greek Macedonia
1066:Great Wallachia
716:
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422:Banitsa (ruins)
387:
364:Regards, Anton
110:
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30:
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4474:
4473:
4472:
4449:New York Times
4445:New York Times
4437:
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4388:
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3336:Requested move
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3070:Volga Bulgaria
3000:
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2893:
2880:Jane Sandanski
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2710:
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2676:
2673:
2672:
2671:
2597:
2596:More Documents
2594:
2593:
2592:
2591:
2590:
2576:
2565:Ivan Anastasov
2561:
2560:
2559:
2558:
2557:
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2341:
2304:
2303:Numb the doubt
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2020:
2019:
2018:
2017:
1997:
1996:
1995:
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1992:
1982:we Macedonians
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1968:
1967:
1966:
1957:
1947:
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1944:
1938:
1937:
1909:
1908:
1898:
1895:
1834:Your Eminency,
1820:
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1763:
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1748:
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1730:
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1725:
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1712:
1694:
1684:
1670:by the end of
1642:
1640:
1638:
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1636:
1635:
1625:/FunkyFly.talk
1571:
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1568:
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1533:/FunkyFly.talk
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1502:
1501:
1500:
1490:/FunkyFly.talk
1460:
1459:
1458:
1457:
1447:/FunkyFly.talk
1420:/FunkyFly.talk
1409:
1406:
1404:
1399:
1397:
1396:
1395:
1394:
1384:/FunkyFly.talk
1349:
1346:
1344:
1342:
1341:
1321:
1318:
1313:
1312:
1311:
1310:
1309:
1308:
1305:
1297:
1296:
1295:
1294:
1269:
1268:
1184:
1183:
1164:
1163:
1153:
1152:
1120:
1119:
1118:
1117:
1108:
1107:
1106:
1089:
1088:
1087:
1086:
1079:
1077:
1076:
1045:
1041:
1037:
1033:
1030:
1029:
1028:
1015:
1013:
1012:
1005:
996:
985:
983:
982:
981:
980:
979:
978:
975:
972:
959:
957:
956:
955:
954:
941:
939:
938:
937:
936:
935:
934:
933:
932:
928:
924:
913:
911:
910:
909:
908:
907:
906:
885:
883:
882:
881:
880:
879:
878:
877:
876:
869:
866:
859:
848:
846:
845:
844:
843:
842:
841:
826:
824:
823:
822:
821:
818:
813:
810:
808:
803:
800:
798:
795:
788:
786:
785:
770:
715:
712:
698:
697:
651:
648:
647:
646:
645:
644:
618:
615:
610:
609:
598:
597:
596:
595:
582:
581:
580:
579:
578:
577:
550:
549:
538:
537:
526:
525:
524:
523:
514:
502:
501:
490:
489:
488:
487:
477:
464:
463:
438:
435:
434:
433:
432:
431:
386:
383:
357:
356:
346:
332:
331:
326:
325:
321:
320:
313:
306:
305:
301:
300:
294:
293:
289:
288:
242:
241:
240:
239:
219:
218:
207:
206:
205:
204:
180:
169:
168:
167:
166:
165:
164:
161:
152:
151:
147:
146:
145:
144:
143:
142:
139:
136:
133:
125:
124:
120:
119:
115:
114:
109:
106:
91:
88:
85:
84:
79:
74:
69:
62:
52:
51:
34:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
4697:
4686:
4682:
4678:
4674:
4671:
4670:
4669:
4668:
4664:
4660:
4653:
4649:
4645:
4641:
4640:
4639:
4630:
4626:
4622:
4621:
4620:
4619:
4618:
4615:
4603:
4599:
4595:
4591:
4587:
4583:
4582:
4581:
4579:
4575:
4571:
4567:
4563:
4555:
4542:
4539:
4521:
4517:
4516:
4515:
4512:
4511:
4492:
4491:
4490:
4486:
4482:
4477:
4476:
4471:
4468:
4450:
4446:
4441:
4440:
4439:
4438:
4435:
4432:
4431:
4413:
4410:
4409:
4408:
4407:
4403:
4399:
4391:
4385:
4381:
4377:
4372:
4360:
4356:
4352:
4348:
4344:
4339:
4338:
4337:
4334:
4316:
4311:
4310:
4309:
4306:
4302:
4301:
4300:
4297:
4278:
4277:
4276:
4273:
4272:
4254:
4250:
4249:
4248:
4245:
4241:
4240:
4239:
4238:
4237:
4236:
4233:
4215:
4214:that category
4211:
4203:
4201:
4200:
4197:
4193:
4189:
4185:
4174:
4170:
4169:
4164:
4160:
4153:
4150:
4145:
4140:
4137:
4133:
4131:
4122:
4117:
4111:
4108:
4103:
4102:
4101:
4100:
4095:
4092:
4088:
4087:
4086:
4085:
4084:
4083:
4080:
4072:
4069:
4066:
4062:
4059:
4057:
4049:
4047:
4045:
4042:
4032:
4029:
4026:
4025:
4024:
4023:
4022:
4014:
4010:
4007:
4002:
4001:
4000:
3999:
3998:
3996:
3993:
3989:
3985:
3981:
3975:
3971:
3965:
3954:
3951:
3949:
3943:
3942:
3941:
3938:
3934:
3933:
3932:
3929:
3927:
3922:
3919:
3916:
3915:
3914:
3913:
3912:
3911:
3908:
3904:
3903:Revolutionary
3900:
3896:
3895:330 for Gotse
3890:
3889:
3886:
3876:
3875:
3873:
3872:
3865:
3862:
3860:
3854:
3850:
3849:
3848:
3847:
3846:
3845:
3836:
3833:
3829:
3828:
3827:
3824:
3822:
3816:
3815:
3814:
3811:
3807:
3806:
3805:
3804:
3803:
3802:
3799:
3797:
3786:
3783:
3779:
3778:
3776:
3773:
3769:
3766:
3763:
3760:
3759:
3749:
3748:
3747:
3746:
3745:
3744:
3743:
3742:
3735:
3732:
3728:
3724:
3720:
3716:
3715:
3714:
3711:
3709:
3703:
3702:
3700:
3695:
3694:
3693:
3689:
3686:
3685:Gotse Delchev
3682:
3681:
3680:
3675:
3672:
3668:
3664:
3660:
3659:
3658:
3657:
3654:
3653:
3650:
3647:
3642:
3640:
3634:
3633:Gotse Delchev
3630:
3626:
3622:
3618:
3614:
3613:Gotse Delchev
3610:
3602:
3598:
3595:
3591:
3588:
3587:
3574:
3571:
3569:
3563:
3562:Gotse Delchev
3559:
3558:
3557:
3554:
3550:
3549:
3548:
3545:
3543:
3537:
3536:
3535:
3532:
3528:
3524:
3523:
3522:
3519:
3517:
3511:
3507:
3506:
3505:
3504:
3501:
3498:
3494:
3490:
3487:
3486:
3482:
3480:
3477:
3476:
3473:
3470:
3465:
3462:
3460:
3457:
3455:
3449:
3446:
3445:
3444:
3441:
3435:
3433:
3432:
3429:
3427:
3418:
3414:
3411:
3410:
3409:
3403:
3399:
3395:
3392:
3388:
3384:
3383:
3382:
3379:
3377:
3373:
3372:Gotse Delchev
3369:
3365:
3364:
3361:
3357:
3350:
3347:
3341:
3340:
3335:
3327:
3324:
3322:
3316:
3315:
3314:
3313:
3312:
3311:
3306:
3303:
3300:
3296:
3292:
3291:
3290:
3289:
3286:
3283:
3278:
3277:
3272:
3269:
3267:
3261:
3260:
3259:
3258:
3257:
3256:
3253:
3250:
3246:
3242:
3238:
3233:
3230:
3228:
3224:
3221:
3215:
3212:
3210:
3204:
3203:
3202:
3199:
3197:
3192:
3189:
3187:
3181:
3179:
3174:
3173:
3170:
3167:
3162:
3159:
3156:
3153:
3152:For example:
3148:
3145:
3141:
3140:
3139:
3138:
3135:
3132:
3128:
3119:
3112:
3104:
3103:
3102:
3101:
3100:
3099:
3098:
3097:
3078:
3075:
3071:
3067:
3066:
3061:
3060:
3059:
3056:
3055:
3052:
3049:
3044:
3040:
3036:
3031:
3030:
3029:
3026:
3024:
3018:
3014:
3013:
3012:
3011:
3010:
3009:
3008:
3007:
3006:
3005:
3004:
3003:
3002:
3001:
2988:
2985:
2981:
2980:
2979:
2978:
2977:
2976:
2975:
2974:
2973:
2972:
2971:
2970:
2961:
2958:
2955:
2951:
2950:
2949:
2948:
2947:
2946:
2945:
2944:
2937:
2934:
2932:
2926:
2925:
2924:
2921:
2918:
2914:
2913:
2912:
2911:
2892:
2889:
2887:
2881:
2877:
2876:
2875:
2872:
2871:
2868:
2865:
2860:
2859:Soviet people
2855:
2853:
2850:
2848:
2842:
2841:
2840:
2839:
2838:
2837:
2836:
2835:
2834:
2833:
2832:
2831:
2830:
2829:
2828:
2827:
2812:
2809:
2804:
2803:
2802:
2801:
2800:
2799:
2798:
2797:
2796:
2795:
2794:
2793:
2792:
2791:
2780:
2777:
2776:
2773:
2770:
2765:
2761:
2759:
2756:
2754:
2748:
2744:
2743:
2742:
2741:
2740:
2739:
2738:
2737:
2736:
2735:
2726:
2723:
2718:
2717:
2716:
2715:
2714:
2713:
2712:
2711:
2706:
2703:
2701:
2695:
2691:
2690:
2689:
2688:
2687:
2686:
2683:
2674:
2670:
2667:
2666:
2663:
2660:
2655:
2654:
2653:
2652:
2649:
2644:
2641:
2638:
2635:
2632:
2629:
2627:
2621:
2619:
2614:
2611:
2610:
2606:
2603:
2602:
2595:
2588:
2585:
2581:
2577:
2575:
2572:
2571:
2570:
2569:
2568:
2566:
2555:
2552:
2548:
2547:
2546:
2545:
2544:
2543:
2538:
2535:
2533:
2527:
2526:
2525:
2524:
2519:
2516:
2514:
2508:
2504:
2503:
2502:
2501:
2500:
2499:
2496:
2492:
2488:
2487:
2485:
2481:
2475:
2474:
2473:22 April 1897
2470:
2468:
2464:
2456:
2454:
2453:
2450:
2445:
2444:
2441:
2439:
2433:
2425:
2423:
2422:
2419:
2411:
2401:
2398:
2395:
2391:
2387:
2386:
2385:
2384:
2383:
2382:
2381:
2380:
2373:
2370:
2366:
2365:
2364:
2363:
2362:
2361:
2356:
2353:
2350:
2346:
2345:
2344:
2343:
2340:
2337:
2333:
2326:
2319:
2318:
2317:
2316:
2313:
2310:
2302:
2290:
2287:
2283:
2281:
2277:
2273:
2267:
2266:
2261:
2257:
2253:
2252:
2251:
2250:
2249:
2248:
2247:
2246:
2245:
2244:
2235:
2232:
2230:
2225:
2222:
2218:
2217:
2216:
2213:
2209:
2205:
2201:
2197:
2196:
2195:
2194:
2193:
2192:
2187:
2184:
2182:
2176:
2175:
2174:
2173:
2170:
2167:
2162:
2159:
2157:
2151:
2150:
2144:
2143:
2140:
2137:
2133:
2129:
2125:
2122:
2121:
2118:
2115:
2111:
2107:
2103:
2100:
2094:
2090:
2089:
2088:
2082:
2080:
2079:
2076:
2072:
2064:
2062:
2061:
2058:
2053:
2052:
2049:
2040:
2038:
2036:
2033:
2029:
2016:
2013:
2009:
2005:
2004:
2003:
2002:
2001:
2000:
1999:
1998:
1991:
1988:
1983:
1979:
1975:
1974:
1973:
1972:
1971:
1970:
1965:
1962:
1958:
1955:
1951:
1950:
1949:
1948:
1942:
1941:
1940:
1939:
1936:
1933:
1931:
1924:
1923:
1922:
1921:
1918:
1914:
1907:
1904:
1899:
1896:
1892:
1891:
1890:
1888:
1884:
1880:
1876:
1871:
1866:
1865:
1862:
1857:
1853:
1852:
1847:
1846:
1843:
1839:
1835:
1831:
1828:
1825:
1824:
1817:
1816:
1815:
1814:
1811:
1806:
1805:
1800:
1798:
1793:
1792:
1789:
1783:
1780:
1777:
1776:
1769:
1768:
1767:
1762:
1758:
1754:
1752:
1743:
1740:
1736:
1735:
1734:
1733:
1732:
1731:
1721:
1717:
1713:
1710:
1709:
1707:
1703:
1699:
1695:
1693:
1690:
1685:
1683:
1680:
1675:
1673:
1667:
1663:
1660:
1656:
1652:
1648:
1647:
1646:
1645:
1644:
1643:
1641:
1634:
1631:
1629:
1621:
1617:
1616:
1615:
1614:
1613:
1612:
1609:
1605:
1603:
1596:
1595:
1592:
1588:
1584:
1580:
1576:
1563:
1560:
1556:
1555:
1554:
1553:
1552:
1551:
1550:
1549:
1542:
1539:
1537:
1528:
1527:
1526:
1525:
1524:
1523:
1516:
1513:
1509:
1508:
1507:
1506:
1505:
1504:
1499:
1496:
1494:
1485:
1484:
1483:
1482:
1481:
1480:
1477:
1473:
1469:
1465:
1464:User:Vlatkoto
1456:
1453:
1451:
1442:
1438:
1434:
1433:
1432:
1431:
1430:
1429:
1426:
1424:
1415:
1407:
1405:
1402:
1393:
1390:
1388:
1379:
1378:
1377:
1376:
1375:
1371:
1367:
1363:
1359:
1347:
1345:
1340:
1337:
1333:
1332:
1331:
1330:
1327:
1319:
1317:
1306:
1303:
1302:
1301:
1300:
1299:
1298:
1293:
1290:
1285:
1281:
1277:
1273:
1272:
1271:
1270:
1265:
1264:
1263:
1259:
1258:
1254:
1250:
1249:
1244:
1240:
1239:
1235:
1232:
1227:
1226:
1221:
1219:
1214:
1209:
1208:
1204:
1201:
1200:
1195:
1192:
1191:
1187:
1182:
1179:
1175:
1174:
1173:
1172:
1169:
1162:
1159:
1155:
1154:
1151:
1148:
1143:
1142:X nationality
1139:
1138:
1137:
1136:
1133:
1129:
1125:
1116:
1113:
1109:
1105:
1102:
1099:
1096:
1095:
1093:
1092:
1091:
1090:
1084:
1083:
1082:
1081:
1080:
1075:
1072:
1067:
1063:
1059:
1055:
1051:
1046:
1042:
1038:
1034:
1031:
1027:
1025:
1022:
1021:
1019:
1018:
1017:
1010:
1006:
1003:
999:
998:
997:
994:
993:
990:
976:
973:
971:
966:
965:
964:
963:
962:
961:
960:
953:
950:
946:
945:
944:
943:
942:
929:
925:
922:
921:
920:
919:
918:
917:
916:
915:
914:
905:
902:
898:
897:
892:
891:
890:
889:
888:
887:
886:
874:
870:
867:
864:
860:
857:
856:
855:
854:
853:
852:
851:
850:
849:
840:
837:
833:
832:
831:
830:
829:
828:
827:
819:
817:
814:
811:
809:
807:
804:
801:
799:
796:
793:
792:
791:
790:
789:
784:
781:
777:
773:
772:
771:
768:
765:
761:
758:
755:
751:
749:
745:
741:
732:
728:
725:
724:
719:
713:
711:
710:
707:
703:
696:
693:
688:
687:
686:
685:
682:
678:
673:
672:
669:
665:
661:
657:
649:
643:
640:
636:
635:
634:
633:
632:
631:
628:
624:
617:POV - pushing
616:
614:
608:
605:
600:
599:
594:
591:
586:
585:
584:
583:
576:
573:
569:
568:
567:
566:
565:
564:
563:
562:
559:
555:
548:
545:
540:
539:
536:
533:
528:
527:
522:
519:
515:
513:
510:
506:
505:
504:
503:
500:
497:
492:
491:
486:
483:
478:
476:
473:
468:
467:
466:
465:
462:
459:
455:
454:revolutionery
451:
450:
449:
448:
445:
436:
430:
427:
423:
419:
415:
414:
413:
410:
406:
405:
404:
403:
400:
396:
392:
384:
382:
379:
375:
374:
371:
365:
361:
355:
352:
347:
345:
342:
338:
334:
333:
328:
327:
323:
322:
318:
314:
311:
308:
307:
303:
302:
299:
296:
295:
291:
290:
286:
281:
280:
279:
278:
275:
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264:
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107:
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96:
89:
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63:
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58:
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49:
45:
41:
40:
35:
28:
27:
19:
4656:
4636:
4606:
4589:
4585:
4549:
4519:
4495:
4448:
4444:
4415:
4411:
4395:
4346:
4342:
4314:
4256:
4253:notice board
4209:
4207:
4191:
4181:
4166:
4162:
4152:
4139:
4126:
4076:
4065:209.247.5.15
4060:
4053:
4038:
4020:
4012:
4004:
3987:
3983:
3979:
3977:
3973:
3969:
3947:
3925:
3902:
3899:321 for Goce
3891:
3882:
3858:
3852:
3820:
3795:
3791:
3771:
3722:
3707:
3691:
3684:
3678:
3644:
3638:
3636:
3632:
3629:Goce Delchev
3628:
3624:
3620:
3616:
3612:
3608:
3606:
3589:
3567:
3541:
3526:
3515:
3488:
3484:
3483:
3467:
3463:
3453:
3447:
3442:
3439:
3425:
3422:
3407:
3380:
3368:Goce Delchev
3366:
3355:
3353:
3345:
3342:
3320:
3299:FrancisTyers
3265:
3249:FrancisTyers
3244:
3234:
3231:
3226:
3225:
3222:
3218:
3208:
3200:
3195:
3193:
3190:
3185:
3182:
3175:
3166:FrancisTyers
3163:
3160:
3157:
3154:
3151:
3131:FrancisTyers
3126:
3123:
3120:Hugh Poulton
3063:
3046:
3022:
2954:FrancisTyers
2930:
2917:FrancisTyers
2885:
2862:
2846:
2767:
2752:
2747:regional way
2699:
2678:
2657:
2645:
2642:
2639:
2636:
2633:
2630:
2625:
2622:
2617:
2615:
2612:
2608:
2607:
2604:
2600:
2599:
2578:
2573:
2562:
2531:
2512:
2506:
2490:
2489:
2483:
2479:
2477:
2476:
2472:
2471:
2460:
2446:
2437:
2431:
2429:
2418:Tony Sidaway
2415:
2412:Unprotecting
2394:FrancisTyers
2389:
2349:FrancisTyers
2309:FrancisTyers
2306:
2269:
2262:
2259:
2255:
2228:
2220:
2203:
2199:
2180:
2153:
2146:
2131:
2127:
2123:
2102:for himself.
2096:
2086:
2083:Edit warring
2068:
2054:
2044:
2025:
1981:
1953:
1929:
1910:
1882:
1874:
1869:
1867:
1858:
1854:
1850:
1848:
1845:
1841:
1837:
1833:
1832:
1829:
1826:
1823:12 july 1898
1822:
1821:
1807:
1803:
1801:
1796:
1794:
1787:
1785:
1784:
1781:
1778:
1775:11 july 1898
1774:
1773:
1765:
1750:
1705:
1701:
1669:
1665:
1650:
1639:
1624:
1600:
1597:
1572:
1559:FrancisTyers
1532:
1512:FrancisTyers
1489:
1476:FrancisTyers
1461:
1446:
1419:
1411:
1403:
1398:
1383:
1351:
1343:
1323:
1314:
1260:
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1228:
1223:
1222:
1217:
1212:
1210:
1206:
1205:
1202:
1197:
1196:
1194:Definitely!
1193:
1189:
1188:
1185:
1165:
1141:
1127:
1123:
1121:
1103:
1100:
1097:
1078:
1023:
1014:
1008:
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984:
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912:
895:
894:
884:
872:
847:
825:
815:
805:
787:
769:
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762:
759:
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752:
747:
743:
739:
737:
726:
721:
720:
717:
702:this version
699:
674:
653:
622:
620:
611:
553:
551:
453:
440:
388:
380:
376:
366:
362:
358:
316:
309:
297:
284:
271:
266:
262:
258:
256:
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243:
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227:
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220:
183:
179:
170:
94:
93:
65:
43:
37:
4566:Bulgarian89
4560:—Preceding
4107:Mr. Neutron
4091:Mr. Neutron
4079:Mr. Neutron
3625:Goce Delčev
3621:Goce Delcev
3617:Goce Delčev
3592:per nom. --
3485:Unpersuaded
2580:understand.
2484:degenerates
2390:information
2263:as late as
2128:possibility
1894:Britannica)
1672:World War I
1437:Macedonians
1356:—Preceding
1218:Macedonians
1199:fatherland.
1128:Macedonians
259:correctness
36:This is an
4412:Macedonian
4196:Jackanapes
3988:Bulgarians
3980:Bugaromani
3603:Discussion
3017:Macedonism
2648:Asenizator
2154:That is a
2097:So, until
1875:completely
1655:Britannica
1579:Macedonian
1441:Macedonian
1231:Macedonian
1054:Skanderbeg
416:Here is a
393:, and the
221:AKeckarov
95:IMPORTANT:
4677:3rdAlcove
4644:3rdAlcove
4625:3rdAlcove
4594:3rdAlcove
4212:to be in
4073:Reverting
4050:The truth
3466:per nom.
2984:INkubusse
2861:" thing.
2808:INkubusse
2722:INkubusse
2682:INkubusse
2551:FlavrSavr
2495:FlavrSavr
2463:Bulgarian
2449:FlavrSavr
2447:Uhm... --
2426:Ethnicity
2286:FlavrSavr
2212:FlavrSavr
2166:FlavrSavr
2136:FlavrSavr
2114:FlavrSavr
2075:FlavrSavr
2057:FlavrSavr
2048:FlavrSavr
1917:FlavrSavr
1903:FlavrSavr
1861:FlavrSavr
1810:FlavrSavr
1791:states...
1739:FlavrSavr
1689:FlavrSavr
1679:FlavrSavr
1608:FlavrSavr
1591:FlavrSavr
1587:Macedonia
1583:Bulgarian
1472:Pitu Guli
1414:Pitu Guli
1362:INkubusse
1058:Ali Pasha
1000:You say:
744:Македония
740:Macedonia
681:FlavrSavr
668:FlavrSavr
650:Consensus
395:other one
370:AKeckarov
351:FlavrSavr
274:AKeckarov
213:FlavrSavr
82:Archive 5
77:Archive 4
72:Archive 3
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
4574:contribs
4562:unsigned
4481:Mactruth
4398:Mactruth
4376:Lantonov
4006:brother.
3652:Bozhinov
3609:official
3475:Bozhinov
3054:Bozhinov
2870:Bozhinov
2775:Bozhinov
2764:WP:POINT
2665:Bozhinov
2161:FunkyFly
2065:Question
1849:As per:
1802:As per:
1786:... Our
1668:However,
1661:there -
1370:contribs
1358:unsigned
1336:FunkyFly
1278:and the
1178:FunkyFly
1158:FunkyFly
1112:FunkyFly
989:Chaldean
949:FunkyFly
836:FunkyFly
748:Одринско
692:FunkyFly
639:FunkyFly
590:FunkyFly
572:FunkyFly
544:FunkyFly
518:FunkyFly
509:FunkyFly
482:FunkyFly
472:FunkyFly
444:FunkyFly
4351:Li4kata
4347:SUCCESS
4280:does).
3984:българи
3853:derived
3692:Delčevo
3590:Support
3464:Support
3448:Support
3039:Asparuh
2549:Sure.--
2507:his own
2204:sources
2112:king.--
2110:Serbian
1870:italics
1581:before
1050:Meshari
494:stay.
426:Andreas
399:Andreas
391:Simvoli
385:Banitsa
39:archive
4590:ethnic
4586:period
4317:can).
4058:.....
3772:ethnic
3489:Oppose
3436:Survey
3237:Goatse
3043:Bulgar
2634:.....
2480:heroes
2208:Vlachs
2108:was a
2071:Skopje
1062:Vlachs
723:IMARO.
409:Realek
3646:Todor
3594:Telex
3469:Todor
3360:Aldux
3282:Telex
3245:would
3198:1998
3176:FROM
3144:Telex
3065:Tatar
3048:Todor
3035:Kuber
2864:Todor
2769:Todor
2659:Todor
2613:....
2605:....
2467:Sofia
2369:Tēlex
2336:Tēlex
2276:May 9
2260:SMARO
2012:Cigor
1987:Tēlex
1961:Cigor
1885:from
1797:SMARO
1788:SMARO
1757:SMARO
1698:SMARO
1575:WP:OR
1348:SICK!
1334:Done.
1326:Iggle
1289:Telex
1168:Bomac
1147:Bomac
1132:Bomac
1071:Telex
901:Telex
861:Here
780:Telex
706:Telex
656:VMORO
627:Bomac
604:Bomac
558:Bomac
532:Bomac
496:Bomac
458:Bomac
337:Ohrid
188:VMORO
16:<
4681:talk
4663:talk
4648:talk
4629:talk
4598:talk
4570:talk
4485:talk
4451:! --
4402:talk
4380:talk
4355:talk
4188:here
4168:IMRO
4159:here
4041:VMRO
3992:VMRO
3990:). (
3723:town
3665:and
3295:IMRO
3241:IMRO
3178:IMRO
2584:VMRO
2432:only
2280:1903
2272:1903
2265:1902
2156:fact
2149:1898
2032:VMRO
1913:IMRO
1887:1902
1879:1898
1761:1898
1720:1902
1716:1896
1659:IMRO
1602:1898
1474:. -
1366:talk
1064:had
1056:and
679:. --
666:. --
664:NPOV
341:Modi
247:Modi
199:Modi
173:Modi
100:Modi
4349:!--
4315:you
4210:has
3901:. (
3897:to
3729:.
3527:was
2325:POV
1883:not
1844:...
1759:in
1718:to
1706:you
1443:).
1213:not
1186:--
750:).
746:vs
418:map
269:"
4683:)
4665:)
4650:)
4600:)
4576:)
4572:•
4535:ss
4527:Nk
4494:--
4487:)
4464:ss
4456:Nk
4404:)
4382:)
4357:)
4330:ss
4322:Nk
4293:ss
4285:Nk
4229:ss
4221:Nk
4046:)
3920:,
3669:.
3637:Go
3627:,
3623:,
3564:.
3512:.
3495:.
3370:→
3358:--
3180::
3164:-
3037:,
2696:.
2646:--
2628:!
2567::
2493:--
2328:}}
2322:{{
2278:,
2134:--
2037:)
2010:--
1985:--
1959:--
1808:--
1627:_
1606:--
1535:_
1492:_
1449:_
1422:_
1386:_
1372:)
1368:•
424:.
211:--
4679:(
4661:(
4646:(
4631:)
4627:(
4596:(
4568:(
4537:e
4533:u
4531:b
4529:u
4525:i
4508:l
4506:o
4504:e
4502:v
4500:a
4498:L
4483:(
4466:e
4462:u
4460:b
4458:u
4454:i
4428:l
4426:o
4424:e
4422:v
4420:a
4418:L
4400:(
4378:(
4353:(
4332:e
4328:u
4326:b
4324:u
4320:i
4295:e
4291:u
4289:b
4287:u
4283:i
4269:l
4267:o
4265:e
4263:v
4261:a
4259:L
4231:e
4227:u
4225:b
4223:u
4219:i
4015:)
4008:)
3986:(
3687:.
3649:→
3641:e
3639:c
3472:→
3302:·
3252:·
3169:·
3134:·
3051:→
2957:·
2920:·
2867:→
2772:→
2662:→
2589:)
2582:(
2397:·
2352:·
2312:·
2282:.
2158:.
2030:(
1722:.
1364:(
1004:.
896:I
875:.
552:"
283:"
238:"
234:"
50:.
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