1948:. Yes it is clearly a 'historical record', but you were to radically decide that it was not a scholarly analysis. You are going into a very vague border here. It wrote 1,133,800/2 million because it was trying to represent differing information from different books (which is quite common in the Samguk Sagi). "A multiple times of 2 million" does refer to the auxiliaries and the logistics, as it was indicated in the source itself. It ultimately comes to the question as to why you are so eager to completely ignore the auxiliaries and the logistics. Other pages involving other army counts does not seem to see this as an issue worthy of ignorance. You were to do your own analysis that, "The justification for the 600,000 lower estimate - ie "roughly half" the size of 1,133,800 - should be obvious.", whilst making a problem out of '3 million'. 3 million is in fact, a very conservative picture. It should be obvious that, "multiple times of 2 million" would be over 4 million - only in accordance to the source. As for the source of '3 million', you are making it a problem because the source does not exactly write the exact number, 3 million - and I did not see that a statement had to always have two different sources supporting it. I can always add "KBS 역사스페셜 021 세계전쟁사의 수수께끼, 고구려 수당전쟁 . (2005). ROK: KBS1.", if this continues to be a problem. Your suggestion; "1,133,800 with additional auxiliaries" is quite misleading. It sounds like it includes the auxiliaries within the 1,133,000. The correct method will be "(number)
2192:"Koguryŏ was the first to open hostilities, with a bold assault across the Liao River against Liao-hsi, in 598. The Sui emperor, Wen Ti, launched a retaliatory attack on Koguryŏ but met with reverses and turned back in mid-course. Yang Ti, the next Sui emperor, proceeded in 612 to mount an invasion of unprecedented magnitude, marshalling a huge force said to number over a million men. And when his armies failed to take Liao-tung Fortress (modern Liao-yang), the anchor of Koguryŏ's first line of defense, he had a nearly a third of his forces, some 300,000 strong, break off the battle there and strike directly at the Koguryŏ capital of P'yŏngyang. But the Sui army was lured into a trap by the famed Koguryŏ commander Ŭlchi Mundŏk, and suffered a calamitous defeat at the Salsu (Ch'ŏngch'ŏn) River. It is said that only 2,700 of the 300,000 Sui soldiers who had crossed the Yalu survived to find their way back, and the Sui emperor now lifted the siege of Liao-tung Fortress and withdrew his forces to China proper. Yang Ti continued to send his armies against Koguryŏ but again without success, and before long his war-weakened empire crumbled."
1668:歷 年 永 久 惡 稔 旣 盈 . 天 道 禍 淫 繁 以 訖 今 . 睠 彼 華 壤 翦 爲 夷 類 阻 種 落 還 集 萃 川 藪 於 徃 代 播 寔 復 漢 · 魏 誅 戮 巢 穴 暫 傾 亂 離 多 · 碣 之 間 荐 食 遼 · 濊 之 境 . 雖 “ 髙 句 麗 小 醜 迷 昏 不 恭 崇 聚 勃 二 十 三 年 春 正 月 王 午 帝 下 詔 曰 方 兵 皆 集 𣵠 郡 . 夏 四 月 車 蓋 至 𣵠 郡 之 臨 朔 宫 四 句 麗 . 二 十 二 年 春 二 月 焬 帝 下 詔 討 高 夏 四 月 拔 新 羅 牛 鳴 山 城 . 虜 獲 八 千 人 . 十 九 年 春 二 月 命 將 襲 新 羅 北 境 . . 移 襲 石 頭 城 虜 男 女 三 千 而 還 夏 五 月 遣 師 攻 百 濟 松 山 城 不 下 之 . 啓 民 突 厥 可 汗 也 . 彼 土 . ” 王 懼 藩 禮 頗 闕 帝 將 討 啓 民 . 苟 或 不 朝 將 帥 啓 民 徃 巡 徭 役 無 期 力 竭 轉 輸 身 塡 溝 壑 百 以 仍 歳 災 凶 比 屋 饑 饉 兵 戈 不 息 之 成 俗 賄 貨 如 市 寃 枉 莫 申 . 重 強 臣 豪 族 咸 執 國 鈞 朋 黨 比 周 以 不 可 容 . 且 法 令 苛 酷 賦 歛 煩 重 之 心 豈 爲 臣 之 禮 . 此 而 可 忍 孰 境 而 擁 塞 道 路 拒 絶 王 人 無 事 君 奉 使 爰 曁 海 東 旌 節 所 次 途 經 藩 徃 來 虐 及 弗 辜 誠 而 遇 禍 . 輶 車 同 禀 正 朔 . 遂 復 敓 攘 琛 責 遏 絶 又 青 丘 之 表 咸 修 職 貢 碧 海 之 濵 劉 海 戍 習 靺 鞨 之 服 侵 軼 遼 西 . 懐 恩 翻 爲 長 惡 乃 兼 契 丹 之 黨 處 緩 前 禽 之 戮 未 即 後 服 之 誅 曽 不 之 廢 業 . 在 昔 薄 伐 已 漏 天 網 旣 勞 烽 候 . 關 柝 以 之 不 靜 生 人 爲 誘 納 亡 叛 不 知 紀 極 充 斥 邊 垂 亟 未 甞 面 受 朝 覲 之 禮 莫 肯 躬 親 . 掩 慝 懐 姦 唯 曰 不 足 . 移 告 之 嚴 亡 徵 已 兆 . 亂 常 敗 徳 非 可 勝 圖
1665:集 五 卷 . 國 初 始 用 文 字 時 有 人 詔 大 學 愽 士 李 文 眞 約 古 史 爲 新 十 一 年 春 正 月 遣 使 入 隋 朝 貢 . 之 . 王 知 其 事 侵 掠 百 濟 之 境 . 赦 之 不 可 致 伐 . ” 厚 其 使 而 遣 帝 下 詔 諭 以 “ 髙 勾 麗 服 罪 朕 已 百 濟 王 昌 遣 使 奉 表 請 爲 軍 導 . 初 . 土 臣 某 . ’ 帝 於 是 罷 兵 待 之 如 恐 懼 遣 使 謝 罪 上 表 稱 ‘ 遼 東 糞 秋 九 月 師 還 死 者 十 八 九 . 王 亦 舡 多 漂 沒 . 睺 自 東 萊 泛 海 趣 平 壤 城 亦 遭 風 不 繼 軍 中 乏 食 復 遇 疾 疫 . 周 羅 漢 王 諒 軍 出 臨 渝 關 値 水 潦 餽 轉 夏 六 月 帝 下 詔 黜 王 官 爵 . 爲 元 帥 將 水 陸 三 十 萬 來 伐 . 聞 而 大 怒 命 漢 王 諒 · 王 丗 績 並 營 州 㧾 管 韋 冲 擊 退 之 . 隋 文 帝 九 年 王 率 靺 鞨 之 衆 萬 餘 侵 遼 西 來 朝 勿 自 疑 懼 . 存 育 之 禮 當 如 當 往 𣵠 郡 . 爾 還 日 語 爾 王 冝 早 啓 民 誠 心 奉 囯 故 親 至 其 帳 明 年 帝 從 之 . 勑 牛 弘 宣 旨 曰 “ 朕 以 化 . 可 因 其 恐 懼 脅 使 入 朝 . ” 乎 . 今 其 使 者 親 見 啓 民 舉 國 從 不 取 使 冠 帯 之 境 遂 爲 蠻 貊 之 郷 肖 師 出 無 㓛 . 當 陛 下 之 時 安 可 域 先 帝 欲 征 之 久 矣 . 但 楊 諒 不 晉 皆 爲 郡 縣 . 今 乃 不 臣 別 爲 異 “ 髙 勾 麗 本 箕 子 所 封 之 地 漢 · 之 見 帝 . 黄 門 侍 郎 裴 矩 說 帝 曰 使 者 在 啓 民 所 . 啓 民 不 敢 隠 與 十 八 年 初 焬 帝 之 幸 啓 民 帳 也 我 克 而 退 . 皷 噪 相 應 . 勝 以 彼 衆 我 寡 恐 不 漢 山 城 . 羅 王 率 兵 過 漢 水 城 中 十 四 年 王 遣 將 軍 髙 勝 攻 新 羅 北 . 記 事 一 百 卷 名 曰 留 記 至 是 刪 修
1710:
army was multiple times that number" is not from the text you quoted, but appears to be a translation of the Book of Sui, Book 4: "總一百一十三萬三千八百，號二百萬，其餽運者倍之" 隋書/卷04. Since you do not seem to know how to read classical
Chinese, I suggest you not quote it. Besides, Knowledge (XXG) generally prefers secondary sources, not primary sources. The statement should be rewritten as: "1,133,800 with additional auxiliaries, according to the Book of Sui; modern estimates range from 600,000 to 1,133,800" citing Graff, Lee, and Michael J. Seth, who was previously removed in the course of the edit war. This is a clear case of disagreement between both primary historical sources and secondary historical sources, and thus all sides should be presented but not by conflating primary sources with secondary sources, or by making up numbers that are not directly referenced in the sources, which falls under original research.
2102:"China, which had been split into many states since the early 3rd century, was reunified by the Sui dynasty at the end of the 6th century. Soon after that, Sui China mobilized a large number of troops and launched war against Koguryŏ. However, the people of Koguryŏ were united and they were able to repel the Chinese aggressors. In 612, Sui troops invaded Korea again, but Koguryŏ forces fought bravely and destroyed Sui troops everywhere. General Ŭlchi Mundŏk of Koguryŏ completely wiped out some 300,000 Sui troops which came across the Yalu River in the battles near the Salsu River (now Ch'ŏngch'ŏn River) with his ingenious military tactics. Only 2,700 Sui troops were able to flee from Korea. The Sui dynasty, which wasted so much energy and manpower in aggressive wars against Koguryŏ, fell in 618."
2078:"China, which had been split into many states since the early 3rd century, was reunified by the Sui dynasty at the end of the 6th century. Soon after that, Sui China mobilized a large number of troops and launched war against Koguryŏ. However, the people of Koguryŏ were united and they were able to repel the Chinese aggressors. In 612, Sui troops invaded Korea again, but Koguryŏ forces fought bravely and destroyed Sui troops everywhere. General Ŭlchi Mundŏk of Koguryŏ completely wiped out some 300,000 Sui troops which came across the Yalu River in the battles near the Salsu River (now Ch'ŏngch'ŏn River) with his ingenious military tactics. Only 2,700 Sui troops were able to flee from Korea. The Sui dynasty, which wasted so much energy and manpower in aggressive wars against Koguryŏ, fell in 618."
1750:. Considering that you do not know how to read Korean Vernacular, or understand the grammatical difference between Classical Chinese and Korean Vernacular, I suggest you to think twice before criticizing or from implying others as incapable. You can clearly understand the information behind the translated phrase; "in total there are 1,133,800, but is actually said to be 2 million, and the auxiliary army was multiple times that number", so having doubts about its meaning or authenticity only seems to be driven by groundless pathos. It is very doubtful to see if your conclusions on 'Knowledge (XXG) generally preferring secondary sources', is actually completely solid or if it is simply your opinion. Even if that is the case; As
797:, because he wants to include later Tang-Silla invasions of Baekje-Goguryeo, which I think is really a separate war. It doesn't make sense, because if you call it Goguryeo-China Wars, the article should include all wars between Goguryeo and China, including the wars against the Four Han Colonies, all the way through Goguryeo's fall. The article as-is, is not about that, it's really about the war between Goguryeo and the Sui Dynasty, which itself is a major, specific topic that should have its own article. If he wants to create another article on the Tang-Silla invasions of Baekje-Goguryeo, that's fine, but don't hijack an existing article on a different topic. Please see and say what you think about it. Thank you.
1628:
estimate to 600,000 Korea official Army history program 43부 고구려-수나라 전쟁편 estimate to only military troops 300,000 Including Supply Corps 1,133.000 by dldusgml1234 i didqjemf1234 i'm korean I'm a beginner wiki Do not speak
English well I wonder how can discuss and edit the document I also wonder why user Wandrative's incorrectly edited document is protected I am Korean, but I want to correct exaggerated Korean history by ultra-nationalistic Korean user help me plz Give me advice How can I change this document to an objective, accurate and honest historical document, not an exaggerated Korean history? by didqjemf1234 (please properly sign your editorials)
1876:
Goguryeo. History must be honest and objective. South Korea is ridiculed by foreigners because of people who exaggerate Korean history like you do. The 600,000 troop estimates are obviously estimating historians and their opinions. On the contrary, the 3 million troop estimates you have recorded are not clear as to who, where, and when the 3 million troops were estimated. You just wrote that the source was
Samguksagi. this is definitely different. You just do not like the fact that modern historians estimate a realistic number of troops. So you somehow want to hide or erase that fact. by dldusgml1234
1585:
1852:, I have already warned you nine times, and I warn you again. You have 1- posted completely incredible sources as cover up (such as YouTube talk show videos) 2- lied about the content of the sources repeatedly 3- created new information at one's own will 4- used derogatory words repeatedly 5- lied that I did certain things, when I did not 6- continuously harassed certain groups of people 7- blamed people from 'distorting' information, when it was actually himself doing so. 8- Disguising your writing within someone else's editorials as if they have written it.
234:
1828:
service in 611, rather than the number that actually arrived at Zhuo commandery and
Donglai and then participated in the campaign against Koguryo the following year. An army roughly half this size, the figure suggested by addition of the reported strengths of the contingents that made up the Sui host, is much more plausible and is also in line with the reported size of the Sui force that moved against Chen in 588." The justification for the 600,000 lower estimate - ie "roughly half" the size of 1,133,800 - should be obvious.
2127:
to repel the
Chinese aggressors. In 612, Sui troops invaded Korea again, but Koguryŏ forces fought bravely and destroyed Sui troops everywhere. General Ŭlchi Mundŏk of Koguryŏ completely wiped out some 300,000 Sui troops which came across the Yalu River in the battles near the Salsu River (now Ch'ŏngch'ŏn River) with his ingenious military tactics. Only 2,700 Sui troops were able to flee from Korea. The Sui dynasty, which wasted so much energy and manpower in aggressive wars against Koguryŏ, fell in 618.
2052:
repel the
Chinese aggressors. In 612, Sui troops invaded Korea again, but Koguryŏ forces fought bravely and destroyed Sui troops everywhere. General Ŭlchi Mundŏk of Koguryŏ completely wiped out some 300,000 Sui troops which came across the Yalu River in the battles near the Salsu River (now Ch'ŏngch'ŏn River) with his ingenious military tactics. Only 2,700 Sui troops were able to flee from Korea. The Sui dynasty, which wasted so much energy and manpower in aggressive wars against Koguryŏ, fell in 618.
42:
224:
194:
535:
1976:) Your claim is delusional."3 million is in fact, a very conservative picture" Your wiki record shows an exaggeration about Korea's history of Goguryeo. Anyone watching this discussion will know who is looking at history normally and objectively. You think your actions are for Korea, but actually you Action is embarrassing Korea. You believe and claim 'Nationalist pseudohistory' can not record a history as 'Nationalist pseudohistory' wiki by dldusgml1234
1633:
obvious truth in relation to your claims of being 'Korean'. 1-you are not Korean, but a
Chinese ultra nationalist. 2-If you are indeed Korean, you are a South Eastern extreme right wing Silla decedent (who are renowned for fabricating the history of Goguryeo whilst enlarging the history of Silla - primarily because they feel that their history is inferior to that of Goguryeo). I will not include any derogatory terms for there groups of people unlike how
1662:八 年 夏 五 月 遣 使 入 隋 朝 貢 . 三 年 春 正 月 遣 使 入 隋 朝 貢 . 夏 五 月 遣 使 謝 恩 . . 三 月 䇿 封 爲 髙 句 麗 王 仍 賜 車 服 進 奉 因 請 封 王 帝 許 之 . 二 年 春 正 月 遣 使 入 隋 奉 表 謝 恩 三 司 襲 爵 遼 東 郡 公 賜 衣 一 襲 . 隋 文 帝 遣 使 拜 王 爲 上 開 府 儀 同 太 子 三 十 二 年 王 薨 太 子 即 位 . 民 自 任 . 平 原 王 在 位 七 年 立 爲 王 長 子 也 . 風 神 俊 爽 以 濟 丗 安 嬰 陽 王 陽.一云平諱 元 元.一云大平 原 髙 句 麗 本 紀 第 八 建武王嬰陽王· 宣 撰 . 史 · 上 柱 國 致 仕 臣 金 富 軾 奉 部 事 · 集 賢 殿 太 學 士 · 監 修 國 太 保 · 門 下 侍 中 · 判 尚 書 吏 禮 開 府 儀 同 三 司 · 檢 校 太 師 · 守 輸 忠 定 難 靖 國 贊 化 同 德 功 臣 ·
314:
420:
1517:
567:
33:
492:
481:
470:
459:
96:
75:
733:, the wars of the Sui and the Tang dynasties it's a serie of wars in the same geopolitic line. Chinese new Empire wanted to submit all it's neighbourgs. For the case of Goguryeo, the Cambridge history of China say that "Taizong became more and more concerne by Goguryeo and the Sui campaign. Taizong wanted submit the only kingdom which resisted to Chinese expansion."
1041:
the original, before your addition of Tang), and I (not Ksyrie) expanded your new
Goguryeo-China with Han, Yan, Tang and other information which I copied from the Goguryeo article. When Ksyrie reverted your move (he didn't add the part about Han, I did), I restored everything as before, by undoing my own changes, since there was no Goguryeo-China article anymore.
627:
599:
1770:). Lee writes that the army count is, '1,133,800 with additional auxiliaries' - not 600,000. So if Graf is on the same page as Lee, then his source should not support 600,000 also. I do not understand why you suggest to have a source bias on keeping the lowest estimate while leaving the moderate source as if it is the highest. It seems like you are discrediting
659:, tried to dissuade the Tang emperors from invading Korea by exaggerating the magnitude of the Sui defeats. In addition, by comparing the size of the army against the size of the population, he shows that this figure was most likely implausible. His estimated figure is a total army of half the size, comparible to the army that invaded the Chen Dynasty.--
551:
378:
346:
166:
1649:(1997). 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사' to support the claim of 600,000 (Which is already sourced and I have no intention of erasing it). However, ki-hun Lee states that the army was 1,133,000, composing of the main assaulting army of 650,000 and the auxiliary armines composing the rest. Because of this reason, I removed it from supporting the claim.
448:
1563:
dirty lie. He wrote "ki-hun Lee's book 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사 in book estimate with 삼국사기 samguksagi to 3,000,000 " This is a crime. This document
Goguryeo–Sui War contains very strong exaggerated comments from the Korean side. I know it because I am Korean. In Korea, this is called "국뽕 • (gukppong)"
2126:
China, which had been split into many states since the early 3rd century, was reunified by the Sui dynasty at the end of the 6th century. Soon after that, Sui China mobilized a large number of troops and launched a sagiwar against Koguryŏ. However, the people of Koguryŏ were united and they were able
1971:
Deciding on the content of the document is not what you(Wandrative want You wrote down the 3 million troop numbers that were exaggerated by ultra nationalists about history and erased the 600000 estimated troops on the Korean historian's book. "KBS 역사스페셜' kbs history program There are many problems
1956:
auxiliaries", since it is clear that they excluded them in these sources. I will also write that it is not ideal to present your own analysis, do original research, or to insist on the use of less reliable sources because it supports a conclusion you support. It is quite surprising to read this from
1833:
One of the most important principles of
Knowledge (XXG) is to cite reliable sources and to follow them, not to present your own analysis, original research, or to insist on the use of less reliable sources because it supports a conclusion you support. I don't know what documentaries you are referring
1725:
hi i didqjemf1234 I say it again Samguk Sagi 삼국사기"《삼국사기》고구려본기 영양왕 三國史記 卷第二十 髙句麗本紀 第八 The Samguksagi was made in 1145 it is not modern time The current document is recorded by Wandrative "Modern estimates vary from 3,000,000 《삼국사기》고구려본기 영양왕 三國史記 卷第二十 髙句麗本紀 第八 to 600,000." This is history distortion.
1553:
The Samguk Sagi is written in Classical Chinese Script, the written language of the literati of ancient Korea, and its compilation was ordered by Goryeo's King Injong (r. 1122-1146) and undertaken by the government official and historian Kim Busik The Samguksagi was made in 1145 it is not modern time
1319:
Apparently you don't know how to sign your editorials. 'Samguksagi' claims the size to be "mutiple times bigger then 1,133,000 - higher then 2,000,000", As for Ki-hum Lee, I asked you to provide the information. is a talk show, but even within that they claim the size to be "over 1,000,000". 300,000
1177:
The Battle of Yoha river is in both the Book of Sui and the Samguk Yusa. It was the first battle between an army of 10,000 goguryeo and the army of 100,000 Sui forces in present day Hebei province. It is a battle i want to put in the war. I also researched the numbers of Sui that invaded Goguryeo. If
1040:
I don't understand what you're talking about, Yug. The current state is the way the article was before your changes. I didn't destroy anyone's work. As I already explained above, when you moved Goguryeo-Sui to Goguryeo-China, I made changes so that Goguryeo-Sui remained about Goguryeo-Sui (by keeping
896:
I have just cut-and-pasted some information from the Goguryeo article to fill out this page with information on Goguryeo's battles with various Chinese dynasties. You can see that it's more than just Sui and Tang. Anybody with more information should be welcome to make this article more complete, but
1827:
I also checked Graff's source. This is what he says, exactly: "Even if the early Tang historians did not "cook the books" in this way, it is likely that the figure of 1,133,800 combat soldiers given in the History of the Sui Dynasty represents the total number of men that the government summoned for
1774:
all together for no authentic reason. The phrase, 'Multiple times of 2 million' is clear, and there are documentaries that describe it to mean 3 million in accordance to it; if the source of the documentary is somehow wrong or manipulated to be invalid, then the phrase: 'Multiple times of 2 million'
1709:
The 600,000 number is a modern estimate. Where does your estimate of 3,000,000 come from? Your source appears to be a medieval primary source, and even within this source your exact claim is missing. The statement "in total there are 1,133,800, but is actually said to be 2 million, and the auxiliary
1730:
If you want to put an exaggerated interpretation 3,000,000, write where someone claims it. There was no original record of 3000000 in this wiki this wiki is distorted by Wandrative And he deleted everything he did not like. He tries to distort the exaggerated history of Korea as if it were true. Do
1562:
in program estimate only military troops 300,000 Including Supply Corps 1,133.000 Despite the exact source, he unconditionally deletes the records. He does not like modern historians to point out the exaggeration of the record and to make realistic guesses Crucially, a few months ago he had a very
892:
Since there was a fully developed article on the specific topic of Goguryeo-Sui Wars, I have restored that specific article, so that the links will be correct. There are many links to that article from other articles already, which intend to refer to the Goguryeo-Sui war, not all Goguryeo wars with
2051:
China, which had been split into many states since the early 3rd century, was reunified by the Sui dynasty at the end of the 6th century. Soon after that, Sui China mobilized a large number of troops and launched war against Koguryŏ. However, the people of Koguryŏ were united and they were able to
753:
I think Goguryeo-Sui Wars is a distinct topic, and should not be merged into the later Tang wars. The later wars were in significant different context, in alliance with Silla, and involving attacks on Baekje. Besides, if this article was truly about Goguryeo-China wars, it would have to go back to
1875:
You have distorted the historical document by relating the exaggerated presumption of an extreme nationalist to the Samguksagi. Originally this document was clean. Problems began to arise from your modification. If you look past your wiki, you will see an exaggerated document revision record for
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refers to the invasion force of soldiers. The "multiple times" phrase refers to logistical support 餽運 - ie people who bring food to the army, cook for the army, etc. They are not combatants. This is why I suggested "1,133,800 with additional auxiliaries" or "1,133,800 with additional logistical
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Its so humorous to see an individual using derogatory terms via clumsy assumptions. One does not have to heavily insist that one is 'Korean', unless one feels that the claim is not standing on solid grounds. You harassed me and many other groups of people multiple times, so i will clarify your
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If you want to put an exaggerated interpretation 3,000,000, write where someone claims it. 3millon? 5milion? who ? where? when? There is no reason to just record exaggerated claims by simple rumors and ultra nationalists about history Do not delete it David A estimate to 600,000 lee ki hun
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Of course these ancient sources wildly exaggerate army sizes. The logistics of a million men on the move - feeding them alone would be beyond the capabilities, technically, at that time - are easily dismissed. Reducing the size of forces due to modern analysis - which include computer programs
1674:"모두 1백 13만 3천 8백 명인데 2백만 명이라 하였으며, 군량을 수송하는 자는 그 배였다. (중략) 매일 1군씩을 보내어 서로 거리가 40리가 되게 하고 진영이 연이어 점차 나아가니, 40일만에야 출발이 완료되었다. 머리와 꼬리가 서로 이어지고 북과 나팔소리가 서로 들리고 깃발이 960리에 걸쳤다. 어영(御營) 안에는 12위(衛)·3대(臺)·5성(省)·9시(寺)를 합하고, 내외 전후 좌우(內外前後左右) 6군을 나누어 예속시키고 다음에 출발하게 하니 또한 80리를 뻗쳤다."
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the main army is 1,130,000 then there must be a logistics force twice the size and it was recorded in both historical texts that there were at total of 3 million sui men that invaded Goguryeo. The number of deaths were also recorded to be atleast 2 million for the Sui.
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According to ki-hun Lee also {(korea historian)(1997). 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사}. , the size of the Sui army is exaggerated Samguksagi for goguryeo–Sui War It is supposed to be copied book of sui The contents are exactly the same korea army talk tv program 43부 고구려-수나라 전쟁편
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continuously removed this highly accredited source, and his reasons for doing so was, 'because it is too old and cannot be a modern estimate'. One should realize that numerous modern estimates are based on primary/secondary historical sources. I cannot believe how
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Stop double spacing your entire content, its becoming overly obnoxious. You seem to repetitively erase all your accumulations of official warnings from your page also. Sign your editorials and don't try to make it appear as if someone else wrote it instead.
1680:"In total there are 1,133,800, but is actually said to be 2 million, and the axillary army was multiple times that number. (ommited) It took 40 full days to begin the march the total army continuously, sending 1 army per day, 40 li's apart. (ommited)
1044:
Again, please feel free to make a NEW article about Goguryeo's wars with all Chinese dynasties, or all Korean dynasties with all Chinese dynasties, or whatever. Just don't change this long-standing, widely-linked article into something else. Thanks.
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Reason:the span of this article is too long.abount 500 or 600 years.It's not suitable to put all the odds in the same article.Just like the war between German and France,we cann't put together all the 3 majors conflits between the two countries.see
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And there's no figure of 3.000.000 in that book. only 1.133.000 and Delete records that reveal their source at will He is afraid that people will see the record (When in the world did this happen?). ki-hun Lee's book 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사 year=1997
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Claiming that the Samgukyusa and Samguksagi is not reliable isn't a refutation. It is just your own opinion. You don't have any reliable evidence that the two books aren't reliable or that it is a propoganda work. Therefore, i will change it back.
1012:.Il est vivement conseille de ne pas t'inquieter trop.qlq fois,on trouve des coreens sont assez fiers de ne vouloir pas changer ses idees.Ok,si on ne peut pas les changer ,on change nousmeme.Essaie toi de creer stubs.Bonne chance et joyeux noel!--
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User:Wandrative What does your warning mean? Your warning is worthless You only warn about the deletion and modification of Korean history exaggerated by you Clearly speaking, the Korea's History Textbook Compilation Committee says 1130000
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article & child articles.) This would be much easier than trying to break the wars into "series", since the beginning and end of each individual war are usually fairly clear, even when the connection between successive wars is not.
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on this page. I assumed that if anyone had a great understanding of "Classical Chinese", then one would able to read it, or is it because its in Korean Vernacular? Here is the repost of the original of the parts that are translated:
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in history part It exaggerates Korea's history very much. History is not for the pride of the nation History must be accurate and honest I hope this document will be an objective document, not an exaggerated document by Korea
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not delete it David A estimate to 600,000 lee ki hun estimate to 600,000 Korea official Army history program 43부 고구려-수나라 전쟁편 estimate to only military troops 300,000 Including Supply Corps 1,133.000 by dldusgml1234
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support." You have not provided a source for the "3 million" combatants claim and it is not customary to include the logistical support numbers in the army size, which is why historians generally prefer 1,133,800.
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I also suspect that Pro-Korean users may prefer divide in 2 articles to show one beautifull article "Goguryeo-Sui wars" where Korean people is amazingly strong with a final victory. And don't want show the final
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Hello I am korean. I am not good at English. Please understand. I think history must be correct and honest. Unfortunately, many Koreans exaggerate Korean history because of the inferiority of history. user
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There Samguk Sagi. If your going to say Samguk Sagi is false then youre basically saying the entire history of the three kingdoms period is false. And it says in Samguk Sagi of the battle of yoha river.
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Commonly, the wikipedia policy is to divide articles when they are too big and dividable in two or three. That's not the case. Make an article "Goguryeo-Sui wars" and an other "Goguryeo-Tang wars" is,
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that also used the same name). I did not read the source from Graf properly, but I can now I understand that his source has the same information with Lee, according to your analysis (
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I am Ksyrie,I just want to say,I am not OpieNn.And I am Chinese,not a pro-Korean.I can see full your justification for restoring your edits concerning Han and Tang.It's I who add the
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attempts to erase the highest extreme estimate whilst leaving the lowest extreme. This makes the article extremely biased to say the least. He added the source, 'ki-hun Lee.
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additionally attempts to add TV talk show episodes on Youtube as a credible source. As for the source supporting the highest estimate, it clearly supports the statement:
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the founding of Goguryeo and cover all wars between Goguryeo and the Han colonies and every Chinese battle since that. This article is clearly more limited and specific.
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Nobody objects to creating new articles, on Goguryeo-China wars, Goguryeo-Tang war, or whatever. But just changing a long-established article messes up a lot of links.
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
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I continue to think, as the Cambridge history of China, that Sui and Tang campaigns are the same line. I ask it again : What are your sources ? What is your studies ?
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designed to use historical methods - does not negate any Korean victory (or loss). An encyclopedia should be as accurate as possible, and this article needs work.
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did continuously to harass me. The conflict at hand is about the army count estimation of the Second Sui Invasion (Traditionally accepted sources, such as the
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should represent the highest estimate. Both of the two extreme sides should be presented, or not be presented at all. Leaving only one side is highly biased.
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I believe that both of the extremes should be well represented within the article, or both not be represented at all. Leaving only one part is highly biased.
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writes the army count to be 1,133,000). The original statement presented the lowest extreme estimate to the highest extreme estimate (600,000 to 3 million).
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Two solutions : First, he is a good user who act too fast. Second, he is a pro-korean user, using a new account and many revert, to keep divide the subject.
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The article mentions that that the numbers may have been "deflated" by Tang, from this talk page it sounds more like the numbers were "inflated" by Tang
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Besides me Other users point out the fault of Wandrative by dldusgml1234 Do not touch My discussions view history Wandrative is editing Do not touch
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whom who did all these three things. I will also indicate that discrediting a highly accredited source according to your opinion is also not ideal.
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What are your sources ? What is your school studies ? The fact that you are a new user (4 edits) doesn't help me to trust you or what you will say.
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1805:'s account is a secondary source. Per Knowledge (XXG) standards, historical records are primary sources, and in this case the numbers given in
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It looks like such a person. He wrote "Modern estimates vary 3,000,000 in Samguk Sagi 삼국사기"《삼국사기》고구려본기 영양왕 三國史記 卷第二十 髙句麗本紀 第八 This is a lie.
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itself are the books;《고기》(古記), 《해동고기》(海東古記), 《삼한고기》(三韓古記), 《본국고기(本國古記)》, 《신라고기(新羅古記)》, and 《구삼국사》(舊三國史). Clearly the numbers overlap with the
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One idea to consider—indeed, the more common way of dealing with situations like this—would be to leave this as an overview article covering
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I completely agree. Goguryeo / China wars are just too long. Goguryeo fought again the Han dynasty, Wei, Sui and Tang, that's 600 years.
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This is a documentary on the Goguryeo Sui war that has profesors of both sides claiming the chinese invaded with a force of 3 million men.
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Request to add the Battle of Yoha river and to change the number of troops in Sui and the number of troops that died after the war in Sui.
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its compilation was ordered by Goryeo's King Injong (r. 1122-1146) and undertaken by the government official and historian Kim Busik
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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1797:. I don't know where you got the idea that the primary source for the war was Vernacular Korean because it is not. I disagree with
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According to Graff, the size of the Sui army is most likely exaggerated; he points out that the Tang chroniclers, who wrote the
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In my opinion, your edits aim to divide the topic in two, to keep a proud, victorious and pro-korean Goguryeo-Sui Wars article.
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I notice you have been adding CE to other articles that have got only European, Western themes, so what's your story really?--
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966:: restaure an old version about Sui's campaigns, delete content (Han + Tang Campaigns) without moving it to an other article.
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According to ki-hun Lee also {(korea historian)(1997). 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사}. , the size of the Sui army is exaggerated ki-hun Lee.
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Comment : It's the second time that this user use this way : he restore old version, without looking on what he delete. (
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related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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to say that the Sui's wars/campaigns (598,612,613,614) are different from the Tang's wars/campaigns (645,661,667,668).
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So : I will set up a "NEW article" Goguryeo-Tang Wars, then, I will ask the opinion of an administrators-historian :
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article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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The fact seem clear to me that it's a story about Chinese proudness and Goguryeo proudness. Not about Sui dynasty.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
2017:'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for
981:- he said "Split", but just keep what he protect (Sui wars), and forget to move what he don't like (Tang wars).
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As of 23:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC), you still haven't provide your source to explain your controversial edits.
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Don't worry Ksyrie, I agree with your edits. But I disagree with OpieNn's edits, who destroyed your work too.
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China. It's a very long-standing article many people have worked on, and it's on the Korean History box too.
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21:56, 26 December 2006 (hist) (diff) Goguryeo-Sui Wars (Split from the newly created Goguryeo-China wars)
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Korea's History Textbook Compilation Committee . It says 1,130,000 only There is also an English version
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can straight up lie repeatedly, harass people all the time, and has not grasp of the topic whatsoever.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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https://web.archive.org/web/20040412021950/http://filebox.vt.edu:80/users/jojacks2/words/grandcanal.htm
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auxiliaries". On the other hand, the minimum count of 600,000 should be represented by "(number)
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http://contents.history.go.kr/front/kh/view.do?category=english&levelId=kh_001_0020_0030_0020
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http://contents.history.go.kr/front/kh/view.do?category=english&levelId=kh_001_0020_0030_0020
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http://contents.history.go.kr/front/kh/view.do?category=korean&levelId=kh_001_0020_0030_0020
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was written in Classical Chinese. The Korean you quoted is not the Idu script but modern Korean
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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I agree with Kirill. After this article is expanded more further, we can start a sub-article on
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to but unless you cite them so that others can verify their reliability, it's not very useful.
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estimates to only military troops 300,000 Including Supply Corps 1,133.000 <-? not signed
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1933:凡一百十三萬三千八百人號二百萬其餽輸者倍之.冝杜於南桑乾水上類上帝於臨朔宫南祭馬祖於薊城北.帝親授節度每軍上將·亞將各一人騎兵四十隊隊百人十隊爲團歩卒八十隊分爲四團團各有偏將一人.
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1347:국방TV (구 국군방송)(國防TV)는 대한민국 국방부에서 관할하고 있는 방송국이다. 현재 하루 24시간 동안 군인과 군사 정보에 관한 매체물만을 방영하고 있다
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is said to represent a division of the army, not the entirety of all 'military troops'.
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Since this is a non-European, non-Christian conflict, should we switch from AD to CE?
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at
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is written in the Korean Vernacular Idu system, and the Korean Vernacular Idu system
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Your contributions -still unsourced- doesn't seem to look on the full semantic story.
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955:: China-Goguryeo wars, long history (about 600 years). I agree with this improvement.
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the wars between Goguryeo and the various Chinese states, and then to break out each
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According to the History of the Sui Dynasty, 1,138,000 combat troops were mobilised.
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to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
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because its talking about the same event, and it has not been sourced in the
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in book estimate 600,000 Korea official Army history program 43부 고구려-수나라 전쟁편
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estimates to only military troops 300,000 Including Supply Corps 1,133.000
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with the program. in a program that talked like fact 환단고기 ( Hwandan Gogi
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Goguryeo-Sui_Wars&action=history
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Goguryeo-Sui_wars&action=history
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2115:(Second revised ed.). Seoul: Hollym International Corporation. p. 18.
2091:(Second revised ed.). Seoul: Hollym International Corporation. p. 18.
2067:(Second revised ed.). Seoul: Hollym International Corporation. p. 18.
2040:(Second revised ed.). Seoul: Hollym International Corporation. p. 18.
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As I said it, my edits are based upon The Cambridge history of China.
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As mentioned in the opening pages of the source, the sources of the
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look on the bottom what you deleted without move it in a new article
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it is not modern estimate 삼국사기 samkuksagi It was made in 1146
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From what I know, my choice is the best one : it's one idea =: -->
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also in book , not estimate to 3.000.000 estimate to 1.133.000
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is not a reliable source as it is a work of propaganda. We need
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
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http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jojacks2/words/grandcanal.htm
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Start-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
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Start-Class China-related articles of Mid-importance
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This article has been checked against the following
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2327:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles in History
2205:harvnb error: no target: CITEREFLee_Ki-baik1984 (
1647:https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Lee_ki_hun.jpg
1556:https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Lee_ki_hun.jpg
1352:https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Lee_ki_hun.jpg
675:https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Lee_ki_hun.jpg
1163:and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
1435:This message was posted before February 2018.
1343:https://ko.wikipedia.org/%EA%B5%AD%EB%B0%A9TV
808:the Chinese will to submit/conquest Goguryeo.
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2417:Chinese military history task force articles
2007:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting
1565:https://en.wiktionary.org/%EA%B5%AD%EB%BD%95
897:don't mess up the existing article, please.
680:korea army talk tv program 43부 고구려-수나라 전쟁편
403:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history
2347:Korean military history task force articles
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1882:, of course the Korean transcription is in
1560:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXHnQuL87k
1388:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nifo1zqzT5A
1314:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXHnQuL87k
682:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXHnQuL87k
2407:Asian military history task force articles
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2412:C-Class Chinese military history articles
2317:Knowledge (XXG) vital articles in History
2219:Silla–Gaya Sahwoe-eui Giwon-gwa Seongjang
1508:Protected edit request on 15 October 2017
1336:https://www.youtube.com/user/kfnmaniagoon
2422:C-Class Korean military history articles
2113:A Panorama of 5000 Years: Korean History
2089:A Panorama of 5000 Years: Korean History
2065:A Panorama of 5000 Years: Korean History
2038:A Panorama of 5000 Years: Korean History
1886:; and the English translation is in the
383:This article is within the scope of the
113:. All interested editors are invited to
2402:C-Class Asian military history articles
2382:Mid-importance Chinese history articles
2151:. Harvard University Press. pp. 38–40.
1817:was not. The number 1,133,800 cited by
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2312:Knowledge (XXG) level-5 vital articles
1161:Talk:Sino-Xiongnu War - Requested move
393:. To use this banner, please see the
176:the Korean military history task force
2367:Mid-importance China-related articles
2342:Mid-importance Korea-related articles
1974:https://en.wikipedia.org/Hwandan_Gogi
1898:. It obviously does not use Egyptian
1211:https://en.wikipedia.org/Samgungnyusa
406:Template:WikiProject Military history
7:
2387:WikiProject Chinese history articles
2377:Start-Class Chinese history articles
1930:《삼국사기》고구려본기 영양왕 三國史記 卷第二十 髙句麗本紀 第八
1551:https://en.wikipedia.org/Samguk_Sagi
1359:https://en.wikipedia.org/Samguk_Sagi
245:This article is within the scope of
101:This article is within the scope of
1677:(Partial Translation into English)
1656:《삼국사기》고구려본기 영양왕 三國史記 卷第二十 髙句麗本紀 第八
1334:it is korea official army program
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559:Chinese military history task force
60:It is of interest to the following
2362:Start-Class China-related articles
1906:were written in Korean Vernacular
910:Split this article into subarticle
575:Korean military history task force
287:project-independent quality rating
25:
2397:C-Class military history articles
2332:C-Class vital articles in History
1912:uses Classical Chinese Characters
1896:uses Classical Chinese Characters
1409:. Please take a moment to review
1225:, which means secondary sources.
1122:Please, an Admin may him merge :
543:Asian military history task force
265:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject China
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2322:C-Class level-5 vital articles
699:18:43, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
636:on 26 May 2007. The result of
608:on 17 May 2007. The result of
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1291:06:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
1276:06:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
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999:11:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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859:20:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
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802:19:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
781:18:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
759:17:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
748:17:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
321:This article is supported by
259:and see a list of open tasks.
173:This article is supported by
2277:19:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
2258:05:14, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
1993:02:58, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
1967:08:35, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
1862:23:57, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
1844:01:39, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
1801:or anyone else who believes
1785:23:40, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
1762:Dynasty (Don't confuse with
1720:23:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
1704:03:57, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
1622:06:25, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
1578:02:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
1503:19:17, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
1330:07:02, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
1150:23:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
1112:23:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
1084:23:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
942:23:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
717:12:53, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
386:Military history WikiProject
1538:to reactivate your request.
1526:has been answered. Set the
1198:tag is missing the closing
1155:Move discussion in progress
921:Western Front (World War I)
866:Sui's campaigns on Gogueyeo
725:Move to Goguryeo-China Wars
324:WikiProject Chinese history
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2221:. Seoul: Hakyeon Munhwasa.
1918:dynasty, a new version of
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1466:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1402:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
729:As visible in the history
657:History of the Sui Dynasty
451:Referencing and citation:
305:project's importance scale
268:Template:WikiProject China
157:project's importance scale
134:Template:WikiProject Korea
2217:: Lee, Sung-joo. (1998).
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2063:Nahm, Andrew C. (2005).
2036:Nahm, Andrew C. (2005).
2005:I check pages listed in
1357:《삼국사기》 삼국사기 Samguk Sagi
1100:, and he will decide. --
959:Then OpieNn come back :
664:22:04, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
2215:Three Kingdoms of Korea
2025:Reference named "Nahm":
1998:Orphaned references in
1398:External links modified
1354:(1997). 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사.
677:(1997). 전쟁으로 보는 한국 역사.
517:Associated task forces:
462:Coverage and accuracy:
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2179:A New History of Korea
2148:A New History of Korea
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2177:Lee, Ki-Baik (1984).
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1283:Stevenloveswaffles15
1247:Stevenloveswaffles15
1180:Stevenloveswaffles15
2011:orphaned references
1902:. Some versions of
1609:template. — Martin
1591:please establish a
1437:After February 2018
917:Franco-Prussian War
795:Goguryeo-China Wars
767:, not the best way.
484:Grammar and style:
437:for B-class status:
2226:Jangsu of Goguryeo
1491:InternetArchiveBot
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1010:Goguryeo-Tang Wars
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1850:dldusgml1234
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1570:Dldusgml1234
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1524:edit request
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817:doesn't seem
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691:50.111.4.123
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240:China portal
174:
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62:WikiProjects
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2269:Tpsreport84
2032:South Korea
1946:Samguk Sagi
1942:Book of Sui
1938:Samguk Sagi
1924:Samguk Sagi
1920:Samguk Sagi
1904:Samguk Sagi
1900:Hieroglyphs
1892:Samguk Sagi
1819:Samguk Sagi
1815:Samguk Sagi
1811:Book of Sui
1807:Samguk Sagi
1803:Samguk Sagi
1791:Samguk Sagi
1748:Book of Sui
1659:(Original)
1639:Book of Sui
1350:ki-hun Lee.
877:•
473:Structure:
209:Start‑class
2301:Categories
2240:067461576X
2187:067461576X
2163:11 October
2073:093087868X
1985:Wandrative
1959:Wandrative
1880:Lathdrinor
1854:Wandrative
1836:Lathdrinor
1777:Wandrative
1768:Lathdrinor
1736:Lathdrinor
1712:Lathdrinor
1696:Wandrative
1601:using the
1547:Wandrative
1528:|answered=
1498:Report bug
1376:References
1322:Wandrative
939:WangKon936
847:individual
119:discussion
2250:AnomieBOT
1954:excluding
1950:including
1908:Hyangchal
1593:consensus
1589:Not done:
1481:this tool
1474:this tool
1204:help page
1202:(see the
870:AQu01rius
765:currently
661:Confuzion
50:is rated
2141:Goguryeo
1764:Goguryeo
1487:Cheers.—
1080:contribs
1068:unsigned
651:Untitled
634:deletion
606:deletion
434:criteria
1411:my edit
812:defeat.
361:Chinese
303:on the
205:History
155:on the
52:C-class
1916:Joseon
1910:(also
1884:Hangul
1795:Hangul
1760:Goryeo
1598:before
1271:smash!
1265:Ogress
1234:smash!
1228:Ogress
1165:RM bot
1145:(talk)
1107:(talk)
1047:OpieNn
1028:(talk)
1014:Ksyrie
994:(talk)
929:Ksyrie
899:OpieNn
831:(talk)
799:OpieNn
776:(talk)
756:OpieNn
743:(talk)
731:(here)
365:Korean
58:scale.
2224:From
2213:From
2195:From
2171:From
2139:From
2105:From
2083:Korea
2081:From
2057:From
2030:From
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1522:This
1341:국방TV
1338:국방tv
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357:Asian
281:Start
262:China
253:China
200:China
128:Korea
110:Korea
81:Korea
39:This
2288:talk
2273:talk
2236:ISBN
2207:help
2183:ISBN
2165:2016
2153:ISBN
2117:ISBN
2093:ISBN
2069:ISBN
2042:ISBN
2019:this
1989:talk
1963:talk
1858:talk
1840:talk
1781:talk
1772:삼국사기
1756:삼국사기
1740:삼국사기
1716:talk
1700:talk
1617:talk
1613:MSGJ
1574:talk
1326:talk
1302:talk
1287:talk
1251:talk
1217:The
1184:talk
1131:and
1076:talk
923:and
879:Talk
875:User
713:talk
695:talk
642:keep
640:was
614:keep
612:was
1744:Idu
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