2055:"Revival of the old empire of the Tsar Dusan" means rebuilding a vast Serbian empire based on medieval history and ethnic claims. It is the epitomy of irredentism. This was not Albertini speaking, but the bomb thrower Cabrinovic. And we have Princip (and many others for that matter) drawing the parallels to the formation of Italy out of the many seperate states (each with its own history and culture) and foreign ruled lands that comprise Italy today, not Albertini. Many authors besides Albertini discuss Serbian irrendentism amongst the south Slavs as a cause of WW1. A quick internet search will turn up quite a few non-Italian authors using the word irredentism or irredentist in this same context. I would add that Albertini gives a quite objective and balanced account of the Balkan origins of WW1. Many later works heavily draw on his writings. Not everyone refers to the irredentism as Serbian irredentism, Williams (Austria-Hungary and the Origins...) refers to it rather as Slavic irredentism. The terms "Young Bosnia" and "Mlada Bosna" are absent from his index (I would guess because he didn't want to use that ill-defined label).
3343:
starting to assassinate
Austrian officials out of pure spite, hoping to cause a civil war. The fact is that Serbia was the aggressor and in the wrong. Taking a weak, sick dying child with tuberculosis, filling him with lies about Slavic freedom and giving him a gun makes Gavrilo a victim: a puppet and a brainwashed idiot spouting high-sounding phrases. He really did not understand what he was doing. Archduke Ferdinand was the most progressive of all the Austrian ruling elite. If Ferdinand had lived, he would have become Emperor of Austria and he would have done away with the repressive tax codes and measures and given each Austrian province its own autonomous Parliament. Once he had given them their own political freedom; that would have stolen the thunder of all political terrorists. This would have made it impossible for any war or revolution or uprising to happen in the Balkans. This would have stabilized the entire world political order. This would have forced each empire to deal with its own domestic problems. End result: no world war. Just social progressive revolutions happening individually in each area.
2160:"...it is simply complete nonsense to wantonly label ... "irredentist". It does not make sense." This seems unfair and overly dramatic. I provided citations from seminal works on this period and region supporting the use of the word irredentist. As I understand it, secondary sources traceable to primary sources are the preferred Knowledge (XXG) sources. Britannica being a tertiary source isn't a good choice. Nevertheless, let me address your point. "Young Bosnia" was not a group or a society it was a movement as pointed out by Albertini, Dedijer, and many others. So, what remains from Britannica is "Bosnian Serbs' resistance movement". I am guessing you don't want to use that phrase since you truncated it. I don't like it either. So, let's put Britannnica aside. When you say: "These people were certainly not fighting for the liberation of 'unredeemed' Serbia?" are you saying that Gacinovic and other Young Bosnians did not fight in the Balkans Wars, or that Serbia did not recover pieces of the Dusan Empire during these wars, or what?
3805:. As it makes clear that my memory, though accurate in some respects, was mistaken about Holbrooke alleging there was a statue, and as your NYT link makes clear there was no statue, there is clearly no grounds for amending the article in that respect. And I suspect there is probably no other reason to amend it either, though it's just possible that I may revisit that later when my mind is a bit clearer - I speculated above about a possible self-fulfilling prophecy, and joked about the date being Friday the 13th, and I have just learned this morning (having watched no news yesterday) that over 120 people have been murdered in Paris by terrorists who, at least with regards to their chosen timing for maximum psychological impact, have seemingly decided to turn the normally harmless Friday the 13th superstition into a kind of ghastly self-fulfilling prophecy. So I'm feeling slightly spooked, and thus possibly not in the best frame of mind to be making sensible decisions about editing Knowledge (XXG). But thanks again, and regards.
1762:"Unwittingly, he is one of the most influential people in 20th century history, being indirectly responsible for sparking the chain of events that led to both World Wars, the Cold War and many of the troubles in the Middle East that still exist to this day" That is complete nonsense! Princip shot the archduke Ferdinand. Austria-Hungary declared war. That's it. We know what happened then: WW1. But the rest doesn't hold any water. Is Princip responsible for Hitler? Certainly not. Is he responsible for the Cold War? Certainly not. There is not even an indirect responsibility. That's childish. Maybe he is responsible for the Vietnam War? Or Korea? Or Nicaragua? Or Afghanistan? Or the Middle East? Or Iraq? Of course not. It's like saying that Adam and Eve (metaphorically) are responsible for people killing each other. No mankind, no war, right? The way history develops is the result of global happenings and global politics (good or bad), not single events that occured in the past.--
1958:
Here, Princip describes the views of the young
Bosnian nationalists who were his friends: "The plan was to unite all South Slavs. It was understood that Serbia as the free part of the South Slavs had the moral duty to help with unification, to be to the South Slavs as the Piedmont was to Italy." (Owings, vol. 1, pg 57) Cabrinovic describes Princip and the other assassins as radical nationalists and defines this as: "Unification of all Serbs under one crown. The revival of the old empire of the Tsar Dusan." Cabrinovic went on to describe the crown as "Karadjeordjevices." Cabrinovic himself was willing to accept King Petar's sceptre, but not the continuation of the dynasty. (ibid, pp 21-22) These statements were under oath. Sometimes people who think fondly of Yugoslavia have trouble accepting the Serbian-dominated nature of the Yugoslavia/Greater-Serbia that the assassins of June 28 envisioned.
2628:
sheer numbers... We'd all be speaking ekavian and writing
Cyrillic. Its the main problem, the numbers are disproportionate. I mean, its true: lots of countries incorporate different dialects and subcultures, but the Serbian one would have to be the main and primary one - simply because of the numbers. This is of course completely unacceptable for Croats... The only way would be to create a truly hybrid official language and culture, but again, Serbs wouldn't consider an equal hybrid fair because there's so much more of them... its a complex issue... Now we're split-up into politically utterly insignificant statelets with no say anywhere or any real economic power - just a market of 25,000,000 people for European goods... --
2901:
revisionists (one of many reasons why
Knowledge (XXG) is ridiculed). He was a member of the Black hand, "a secret SERBIAN society of the early 20th century that used terrorist methods to promote the liberation of Serbs outside Serbia from Habsburg or Ottoman rule and was instrumental in planning the assassination of the Austrian archduke Francis Ferdinand (1914), precipitating the outbreak of World War I". Do I even need to start listing sources (and waste my time with Wikipedian hisorical revisionists) confirming that the Black Hand was a secret Serbian society, and that Gavrilo Princip was one of them? Even Knowledge (XXG) itself (article about Black Hand) says so. This article is a ridiculous.
2195:
ethnicity is an irredentist. If he approaches his goal legally, there is nothing wrong with his desire or efforts. "Irredentist" is not a derogatory word. Sicily was an independent country for 700 years. It is still recognized as having its own language which includes many North
African words. Before the nation of Italy started forming who could say for certain if Sicily was or was not as distinct a nation as Croatia or Slovenia. Now that Yugoslavia has fallen apart, it does look more like Croatia and Slovenia are signifcantly more distinct nations than Sicily or the other medieval Italian states, but looking at it from the time before the nation of Italy formed is another matter.
3339:
taxed on how many children had been BORN to each family regardless whether they survived or not. This destroyed the basic tactic of the poorest families of the masses only surviving by having as many children as possible to insure the parents would be looked after in their old age. Because 6 out of 9 of
Princep's family children died in their infancy. This forced the Princep family pay taxes on 9 children every year... 6 of them dead! This forced the family into starvation... because they literally could not afford to feed their 3 children who had survived infancy, and even then they were sick and weak and could not support their parents.
1842:
has never been determined why the poison did not work. "Past date" is just an assumption. The man who handed the assassins the poison was secretly an agent of the Prime
Minister, and since the Prime Minister was at "daggers drawn" with the military men the assassins might finger, one could imagine other possible reasons for the poison not to work. 4. Mlada Bosna, or Young Bosnia, is poorly characterized as a freedom movement. It was a nationalist or irredentist movement. For the most part, Austria-Hungary had already dismantled the kmet slavery system of the Ottoman Empire by 1914, although land reform had made little progress.
1474:
Constitution. Belgrade also exposed reluctance to change the
Constitution just because of the ultimatum. Considering that normal judicial practice was hurt, the Serbian government proposed addressing the International Court of Justice, whether A-H can legally take over (de facto) Serbian courts (note aside: Serbia already authorized A-H to fight against any action on Serbian territory finding endangering, as well as to fire anyone from the army and administration A-H named and remove all bad things about Austria-Hungary from school textbooks), promising to recognize uphold ICJ's decision. --
1201:"Princip and two of his accomplices had been trained in Serbia by members of the Black Hand terrorist organisation, a fiercely nationalist organisation which the Serb Government itself was even then trying to suppress. The conspirators had been encouraged in their task by the leader of the Black Hand, Colonel Dimitrievic (also known as Apis), a sworn enemy of Austria. Having been given their wepons in Belgrade, the conspirators had been smuggled back across the Austrian border into Bosnia in May. Their aim was to strike a physical blow at Austrian rule."
1898:
combining them with Serbia in the same way that Italy had coalesced around
Piedmont. Although some hoped that the government of the future Greater Serbia or Yugoslavia would be liberal, this was not a characteristic of the movement. So neither political freedom, nor freedom from slavery was what they were after. You can say "freedom from Austria", but that would just be an independence movement, which they were not. They sought unification with Serbia. Irredentism is not a dirty word.
3331:
their independence and become a
Serbian province in a growing Serbian Empire. Princep was gulled by the political rhetoric about Slavic freedom. The fact is Princep's ethnic race was a minority in Bosnia. All the Balkans were multi-ethnic. The only political rationalization which made any sense was a larger multi-ethnic Yugoslavia. However, whatever lip-service was paid to this idea by his handlers was pure political propaganda designed to brainwash the gullible masses.
5070:“In Belgrade he met Živojin Rafajlović, one of the founders of the Serbian Chetnik Organization, who sent him (along with 15 other Young Bosnia members) to the Chetnik training centre in Vranje. There, they met with school manager Mihajlo Stevanović-Cupara. He lived in Cupara's house, which is today located on Gavrilo Princip Street in Vranje. Princip practiced shooting, using bombs and the blade, after which training was completed and he returned to Belgrade
3261:
Gavrilo Princip, and his picture later appeared in many newspapers and books, some of them years after the assassination." We have numerous sources claiming that the photograph depicts Princip and these sources do not mention Behr at all, but we also have several that acknowledge the confusion between the two and clearly state that the man on the photograph is Behr. We should probably move the image down to another section and explain it in the caption.
31:
3775:, 1937 translation as "Here, in this historical place, Gavrilo Princip was the initiator of liberty, on the day of St. Vitus, the 28th of June, 1914." What he fails to mention is that the plaque West was referring to was dedicated in 1930, stolen by the Nazis in 1941 and taken to Berlin at the behest of Adolf Hitler (who was a well known Serb-hater). Since Holbrooke's trip occurred in 1960, he must have been referring to
3239:(UK paper): 'Even the most famous photograph of Princip, showing him ‘‘under arrest’’ after the assassination, is problematic. It has been used by historians, newspapers and broadcasters, from AJP Taylor to Knowledge (XXG), and they are all wrong. The man was an innocent bystander called Ferdinand Behr.' www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/inside-first-world-war/part-one/10273752/gavrilo-princip.html
4503:". I just worry that the assassination detail goes into too much detail about parts of it which don't directly affect Princip. Obviously enough needs to be included to provide context, but (for example) I don't think knowing where the mayor of Sarajevo and the Commissioner of Police are sitting is necessary here. Similarly with some of the additional details provided about the fate of the other conspirators.
1808:
sparked all others. The fact that he was one of many likely causes of the war (or, for that matter, merely the straw that broke the horse's back) is irrelevant. If we say at the end of the first paragraph that his shot sparked the chain of events that led to World War I, then we must be able to say that World War I led to the rest of these things, therefore, he was a cause, to varying degrees of directness.
4931:
4908:
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4791:
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2022:
rational discourse on the subject of whether Princip and his associates were part of an irredentist movement. If I said "It is understandable that you would dismiss a great historian's writings because he is from Italy and you are from Dalmatia." I don't think you would take kindly to it. So, this "It is understandable" phrase can be quite insidious sounding kind but being utterly dismissive.
3046:
other biographic pages, the pictures change and it is no longer the same person. But this is supposed to be a documental document. If there is doubt about identities and pictures, it should just be noted and make all materials available. If a picture has already been published here, a way to retrieve it should be available. If a picture was retired, it should be noted and explained why. djb
1430:", as it most definitely is not the case. The Serbian government accepted 9/10 points of the ultimatum, which, according to it legal team, were acceptable under Serbian Law. The government put preservation of peace at the utmost priority. However, at point number 6, a very big technical problem arose. Let me quote Article 146 of Part VIII (Courts) of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Serbia:
2934:
2842:
2727:
implications that he holds personal blame for the death of millions (the Somme is usually shown :). His actions must be looked at in their proper context, i.e. that of millions of people under German (and Hungarian) rule and oppression trying to achieve self-governance. This person fired that shot hoping to free his countrymen, and in a way, actually succeeded in doing so.
512:(The "War on Terror"). History is full of those single persons (Booth, Oswald, Churchill, Einstein, Pilate, Hitler, Henry VIII) making decisions or taking actions that make a difference in world afrairs. Had Princip not taken action, the previous assassination attempt might have been enough to lead to the war anyway, but his action was still significant. IMO, of course.
589:
facts beacuse most of them are false. And what do you mean that Bosnia has never existed, of course Bosnia existed. Tvrtko Kotromanic, the King who called the people Bosnjanins? Tomasevic of Bosnia? Husein Gradascevic who fought for independence from the Turks so that the Bosnians could have their Country back? Read some balkan history first then comment.
4097:
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1692:
Saint Vitus' day is highly criticized as provocative of the Serbs, that it does not aid the tensions that were created in 1906, 1907, 1908 and 1909 previously and that there the successor's security could be greatly jeopardized in Sarajevo, Pasic advising the A-H authorities not to send him to Sarajevo for his own safety.
2940:
2937:
2848:
2845:
3787:. Again, no mention of Serbia or Serbs. Given that he goes on to use the plaques supposed reference to "Serbian liberty" to allege that Yugoslavia's Serbs were extremists, nationalists and terrorists even before the country's bloody demise, I'd say that yes, this is probably propaganda. Think what you will.
4506:
The second is about a couple of things mentioned in the lead, but not thereafter. Basically, the entire second paragraph of the lead does not feature in the article itself. The lead should only summarise the article, so please review the entire lead and make sure everything is included in the body of
3140:
At the time, the word bosniaks to refer to muslims from yugoslavia didnt exist. it was invented during the last war. I dont claim it may or not be used now as i think that would lead to one of those endless nationalist conversations totally pointless, but it should be corrected. It is as incorrect as
3045:
Now the picture is no longer there (here). He looks different from the current picture, in fact, he looks mentally perturbed in a posture showing both arms that makes think he had some kind of implement in the back. In all three pictures the face looks quite diverse! I ve found the same phenomenon in
2770:
This section looks like trivia, really unrelated to Princip, akin to spam. In any case the weight is way over-done. So I've removed it. It might be included if there were folks who were spurred by a very popular song to find out who Princip was, but I don't get the feeling that too many people have
2177:
I shall once again attempt to further clarify the key difference. The people of Piedmont were of Italian nationality (though Piedmotese), while the people of Serbia were not of "South Slavic nationality". That's the core difference. The goal of this organization, i.e. the union of all South Slavs, is
1528:
In essence, it also must not be forgotten that the Black Hand was also a terrorist organization that riled up unrest in Serbia, and that the parliament adopted a resolution against it in the beginning of 1914 demanding reaction from the authorities, satisfying with an open declaration. It should also
1042:
I am all for that. If the paragraph could be worded neutrally to say neither the Serbian government were nor were not behind the assassination, by just putting the facts. If someone later comes up with evidence from a good source to prove that the black hand were acting on the orders of the Serbian
527:
Austria didn't want to annex Serbia to the Empire. There is no evidence for that. Austria wanted to punish Serbia, because Austrians belive Serbian government and panslavic nationalism caused the assasination. Austrians bacame furious, because Serbia was a little Balkanian non-industrialized country,
4810:
If this article was to be taken further to FA, then a more rounded view of Princip would need to be provided, analysing more sources. There is also a gap just before the assassination that it would be good to fill, but none of that is required for GA status. The article sufficiently covers the major
3744:
We currently say only that a statue to Princip was put up in East Sarajevo in 2014. Yet my memory tells me that towards the end of the Bosnian war (presumably around 1994 or 1995) I read an opinion piece somewhere (probably the Irish Times, though presumably it was originally published elsewhere) by
3634:
In the article, there is room for nuance and explanation, but in the infobox, we are limited to concise summaries of non-disputed material. Terms such as "atheist", "agnostic", "humanist", "areligious", and "anti-religion" mean different things to different people, but "Religion = None" is perfectly
3484:
Saying "Religion = Atheist" in Knowledge (XXG) infoboxes implies that atheism is a religion. It is like saying "Hair color = Bald", "TV Channel = Off" or "Type of shoe = Barefoot". "Religion = None (atheist)" is better -- it can be read two different ways, only one of which implies that atheism is a
3376:
I notice Footnote 2 of the References list, citing a book, and mentioning a dialogue in his trial when he declared himself an atheist, appears to have no passage in the main article linked to it - in fact I cannot find anything referring to atheistic belief on his part. I wonder if his remains were
3350:
If anyone can find the Austrian tax codes for the Austrian Empire circa 1900: I am fairly certain that the tax codes for the Austrian provinces are not the same as the tax codes for Austrians. It was this double standard that was a main reason for ethnic minorities being unhappy about being part of
3342:
The other political point which is never mentioned is the reason the Black Hand assassinated the archduke was pure jealousy. Serbia had wanted to annex Bosnia but Austria got there first. It was a matter of two greedy states grabbing for the same territory and the loser being a real shit about it,
2105:
In my view I was discussing with the utmost civility, I remind you that its not advisable to assume one's tone of voice when its missing from the picture. I also do not take kindly to your insinuations that I am dismissing the man on the basis of his nationality, or in fact, that I am dismissing the
1957:
Albertini discusses Mlada Bosna in Origins of the War, Vol II, pg. 22-25 and describes its agitation as irredentist on page 25. ...and Albertini knows his irredentism. You will find many statements by Princip and others referring to Serbia as Piedmont, so they themselves embraced the Italian model.
615:
I visited Sarajevo as a boy in 1972 and was taken to see the site of the shooting. There was a small square of older asphalt preserved in a more modern footpath paving and showing the distinct impression of shoe prints, with a sign that said, so I was told, that these were the footprints of GP made
303:
I don't know why this keeps being changed from a rifle to a pistol on the last line, but it was clearly a pistol he used, the rest of this artcle confirms that, so does the article on the FN model pistol he used, as well as every other source on the topic I've seen, a rifle is not a pistol so unless
158:
was born as ethnic Croat, he was also connected to the organization and arrested during the WWI. The Young Bosnia was just one of similar organizations of youth Slavs in Austria-Hungaria, not isolated from political movements of that time. Young Bosnia advocated use of violence to achieve this goal.
3749:
in which he said he had been shocked when he learned that Sarajevo had a statue honouring Princip - we currently have no mention of this statue. Is it still there? Was it destroyed, or removed, perhaps to please Holbrooke? Was it a fiction invented by US anti-Serb propaganda (possibly one which has
3613:
If anyone insists on keeping "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (Atheist)" in any Knowledge (XXG) infobox, they must first provide a citation to a reliable source that established that the individual is An atheist, and considers atheism to be a religion. There is at least one page that does
3346:
The fact is Princep hated the Austrian Empire because they had very good tax collectors: Gavrilo hated the Austrian Empire because they taxed his family to death and forced his family to send him away because they couldn't afford to feed him. All the rest of the political propaganda concerning why
2627:
Its a tragedy really... we're all the same people in general terms - Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Montenegrins... The main problem are the Serbs: there's just too much of you guys! :) If we really were hypothetically to admit we're all the same people, Serbs would culturally swallow-up everyone else by
1873:
Agreed on all points, except the characterization of Mlada Bosna. "Nationalist movements" often = "freedom movements" as far as Austria-Hungary is concerned, and this is an extremely "touchy" point. Therefore, I would not "touch" it. Although, I can suggest using "nationalist freedom movement" as a
1691:
Well, I don't know much, but I do know that Nikola Pasic's intelligence informed him of high possibilities of an assassination attempt of Franz Ferdinand. He immediately wrote to the Serbian ambassador in Vienna to pass a letter to Emperor Franz Joseph. In it, Ferdinand's grand visit to Sarajevo on
1644:
Either is fine with me, I just disliked the "rejection of inquiry" fallaciousness. BTW, didn't Germany declare war on Russia and France, didn't it prepare for it since before, signing a secret treaty with the Ottoman Empire to form a Central Power military alliance also with Austria-Hungary, Italy,
1507:
Did they really reject it? The Serbian government complied, but said that there are technical difficulties in the Law (which was, obviously, more advanced than Austro-Hungarian). Requesting ICJ's intervention and altogether, really makes "rejection" improper wording. BTW, there is no mention of the
318:
As of today the article states that "he suffered from tuberculosis, which was his eventual cause of death in 1918, and was also one of the reasons he killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand in the first place". In my limited experience, people with tubercolosis don't usually go around killing the heirs to
3829:
Mr. Gabriel Principal, Esq. would I think be horrified by (aside from the dissolution of Yugoslavia) the fact that his good name is being "chipped" away at by IPA-ignorant English speakers. What with all the anniversaries, WWI has been revived as a popular topic and I have to say: I've never heard
3072:
Picture is showing arrest of Mr. Ferdinand Ber (Austrian monarchy employee in Bosnia and Gavrilo Princip's friend) who was opposing police brutality during Gavrilo Princip arrest. This picture was first time published about ten years after assassination by the Interessantes Blatt, and then it was
2695:
The idea that Princip was eating a sandwich at the vital moment is spreading rapidly in the UK and US, probably as a result of it being included in a TV documentary on the assassination widely shown in schools. Actually contemporary evidence in the form of Princip's trial transcripts show that the
2140:
I am not viewing this from any POV, it is simply complete nonsense to wantonly label an early pan-Yugoslav movement as "irredentist". It does not make sense. Britannica refers to Young Bosnia several times as a "revolutionary group", "resistance movement", and "secret society": not an "irredentist
2021:
I'd like to ask you to use the same collegial tone I have used. "This is Knowledge (XXG), and labeling should be avoided" ("Mlada Bosna" is itself a lousy label*), "Its the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The multi-national superstate...", and "...which is understandable." it seems to me do not promote
1922:
As always, the situation in the Balkans is a lot more complex. The country we're talking about is not France or Italy, its the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The multi-national superstate was teeming with movements for independence from Austrian or Hungarian rule. The term "irredentist" is incorrect, as
1841:
1. The "Black Hand" is just a popular name for "Unification or Death." The article makes it sound as if these are different organizations. 2. That Mehmedbašić failed to act is fact, but he never said he lost his nerve so this is statement regarding loss of nerve is conjecture or politics. 3. It
1807:
Even though Austria-Hungary would have found another excuse to declare war, the point is that he's the one who took the shot, which led to the war, which led to the Treaty of Versailles, and so on. Certainly he is not the direct cause of every single little think, but he still sparked the war that
511:
Thank you. Yes, that does make it easier on the eyes. However, I respectfully disagree with your assessment as to who can start a world war. One nobody (Osama bin Laden) from a backwater in a peripheral province of a empire on the sidelines of world affairs (Afghanistan) cannot start a world war
340:
I need to find some sources relating to Gavrilo Princip for a very important historical investigation for my Year 12 History Extension major work. It would be most helpful if anyone could provide me with some useful sources (or at least some more academic than the rather limited sources quoted on
217:
There were alliances and powerful militaries being formed long before the war, and they sure weren't being formed because of peace purposes. The assassination was just an excuse to start the war. If the assassination didn't occur, something would have happened a week later which would have started
114:
The car did in fact take a wrong turn. They were on the return trip but had decided to follow the route along the quay rather on the way back rather than the original route through the side streets. The driver of Franz's car did not, however, get the message and so turned onto the side streets.
3861:
As for the pronunciation, I honestly do not see what the problem is. The pronunciation is already there, and it seems rather clear to me. To have two would be silly, so can we demonstrate that the IPA is wrong? How is printzip superior to prǐntsip? Isn't /ts/ much more common in English than /tz/
3334:
The real reason why Princep hated the Austrian annexation of Bosnia was a matter of taxation. The Ottoman Empire was so corrupt that it could not even collect its own taxes. In other words, because of pure graft and corruption, before Bosnia was taken over by the Austrians... many Bosnians were
3208:
I'm not a Knowledge (XXG) editor and I don't have time to give sources, but I recall from a recent trip to BiH that I saw the pistol used to assassinate the Archduke, which is now exhibited in a small museum in Sarajevo, right near the Latin Bridge. I might be wrong, but it's worth checking out.
2704:
Although this is a trivial point, the story has become extremely widespread on the net (search for Princip + sandwich and you'll see what I mean) and I feel it is a good example of the way in which history can rapidly be perverted by false information in a popular medium. WP should be better than
2194:
The requirement of a perfect match between Italian irredentism and Serbian or south Slavic irredentism is an unreasonable standard. Irredentism comes in many forms. A Mexican who wants the southwest of the United States to be split off from the U.S. and combined with Mexico based on history and
2083:
If there was a leader of Mlada Bosna, it was "Black Hand" Director Gacinovic. Naturally, he fought in the Balkans wars, as did many of the Young Bosnians who were of age. Princip of course tried to fight in the Balkans Wars, but was rejected as he did not seem physically able. The point I make
165:
Pricip was a Serb. The group was Serbian in origin. Apis was a serb. The motive for the killing was Serb nationalism. End of. Of course there were other ethnicities in there, but the actual perpetrators belonged to "Mlada Bosna", or "Young Bosnia", which was a freedom fighting/ terrorist group of
3338:
Then the Austrians took over and enforced their harsh taxation. This alone enraged the Bosnians who had been getting away with paying no tax for years. However there was one specific part of the Austrian tax code which made Gavrilo hate the Austrians and that was the fact that every family was
3330:
First: the motive of Princep Joining a Serbian terrorist group is not simple. The fact is Princep was not a Bosnian patriot or freedom fighter: he joined the Serbian secret Black Hand. Serbia was secretly trying to annex Bosnia into its grasp. If Serbia had succeeded, Bosnians would have lost
2521:
As for your last sentence, Princip was probably (unwittingly) the most important single person of the 20th century, although I'm sure he didn't intend for it to happen like that...:) But, yes, he was certainly praised after his death; had he lived he probably would have been a national hero. --
2426:
I agree with you that Princip was working towards a notion of Yugoslavia, and he certainly wanted to see it come to pass. But the state did not exist in his lifetime, and that was a different time: there was certainly more of a notion of Yugoslavian unity when they were under the control of an
1060:
I'm not sure about Gilbert's sources, but it seems almost impossible to determine the level of implication of the Serbian government without really full-proof evidence. All we know is that the Black Hand was behind the assassination, and that the Black Hand was generally supported by the Serbian
836:
Did he ever say that he was for Serbia? What i know is that Serbs claims that he was a Serbian nationalist but did he ever say that he was a Serb. Give me some facts if its true that he said he was a Serb i would appreciate it. And do not give me any Serbian facts beacuse most of them are false.
588:
Did he ever say that he was for Serbia? What i know is that Serbs claims that he was a Serbian nationalist but did he ever say that he was a Serb. Give me some facts if its true that he said he was a Serb i would appreciate it. Ive heard that he was a Bosnian hero. And do not give me any Serbian
470:
One nobody from a backwater in a peripheral province of a empire on the sidelines of world affairs cannot start a world war. What started it is A-H thinking "aha! this gives us the perfect opportunity to invade Serbia and add it to the empire" (as they'd been trying with intermittent success for
3355:
The above is unsigned. Having read this and the article on Franz Ferdinand (which mentions nothing about potential tax policies were he to become Emperor), I ask what evidence is there the Archduke considered abolishing the tax? Beware of putting a 'closet liberal' spin on the Archduke without
3260:
also say that the photograph depicts Ferdinand Behr, though they don't describe him as innocent; apparently, he was "a friend of Princip's who did resemble him." Behr tried to help Princip escape. "While he was being taken to the police, a photographer took his picture. He looked very much like
2900:
Interesting. Since when "Serb" translates to "Yugoslav"? Most sources, including Encycopedia Britannica say that he was a Bosnian Serb. The mentioning of his ethnicity and ethnicity of his parents is "strangely" avoided. It's not surprising to find another Wikipedian article full of historical
2122:
The tone and content of your writing is what I am asking you to make collegial. For example, instead of saying "I remind you..." you might say "I did not intend what I wrote to be condenscending or dismissive." In this vein, for my part, with regard to Albertini, I did not intend to insinuate
572:
What a joke, sad joke. Bosnian Muslims and Croats now want to change history by saying how he was "Bosnian" or Yugoslav. "Bosnian" nation has never existed and will never exist!!! Also, he cannot be Yugoslav because Yugoslavia was formed few years after his death. Corfu declaration made by Serb
1897:
Irredentist is the really correct word from it, I only suggested the alternative "nationalist" because these days many people don't know what irredentism is. "Freedom" is just silly. The movement was characterized by advocating the violent separation of various Austro-Hungarian provinces and
1081:
If there is problem with statement that Serbian government is behind assassination we can write that Chief of the Intelligence Department in the Serbian General Staff has ordered assassination. We do not know if his killing in 1917 is connected with 1914 so there is no reason for writing about
619:
Apart from the implausibility of the whole thing, its a rather quaint little real or imagined artefact of the most important man of the 20th century . Is it still there? Sarajevo has had far more important things to worry about than old footpaths in recent years ] 04:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)]
199:
Assuming Rich = important to history is a common mistake; Joan of Arc, Jesus H Christ, almost every scientist which actually built civilizing technology, venture capitalists are generally not rich before getting rich in which case after they become rich they return to being unimportant again,
4367:
I added that section when I was thinking of things to add in order to make the article as thorough as possible. I don't believe any of the portrayals were particularly noteworthy, just simply whenever he was portrayed, and I would be okay with removing the section entirely if that's okay with
434:"The event, known as the assassination in Sarajevo, either prompted the Austria-Hungarian action against Serbia that led to World War I, or was the pretext for it, depending on your point of view. He is commonly known therefore, rightly or wrongly, as the man who started the First World War."
2726:
Generally speaking the whole hubbub about this assassination in the West is quite absurd. The powers were just looking for an excuse and found it in Gavrilo Princip. What you see in US media is the nonsense thesis that this person alone brought about the first global conflict, there are even
1569:
It is also interesting that a German (Rodolphe Archibald Reiss) actually defends the Black Hand at the Sarajevo Assassination, calling it a reactive act against an oppressing dictatorship. Also, let us not forget that it is Young Bosnia which is primarily the organizer of the assassination.
1473:
In effect, A-H demanded that all courts be subjected to the Vienna regarding the cases related to the Sajarevo Assassination, or better said, anyone whom Austria-Hungary wants to indict on the soil of Serbia. This would be a serious injure of the judicial process, but primarily violate the
2355:
Ok, guys, please stop with the edit warring on the article. I've changed the nationality to "Serbian" and added an external link. I see that there is some disagreement about what his nationality should be. I think the best thing to do here would be to discuss if we should change it.
1154:
There were members of Hitler's government who tried to assassinate him. By your reckoning you then have a paradox of Hiltler ordering his own assasination. Why is it so unbelievable that Dimitrijević used his position of power to carry out assassinations according to his own ideals.
1711:
This is turning into one hell of a discussion. That's really interesting Pax, can you recommend some good WWI books for me? Anyway what about this lead paragraph thing? Are we changing it? I vote that Pax alter it as he has displayed an extraordinary knowledge of the incident.
180:
I've removed this section altogether; I thought it was rubbish. Saying that GP caused WWI is unbelievably overstated, the causes are extremely complex, and (at most) the assassination provided the spark for a conflict which was inevitable (and perceived as inevitable at the time).
1372:
It is worded in a way to suggest Serbia point blank refused to the ultimatum. It might be misleading to someone doing thier homework on here or something. I think a minor re-word should do it. I never wanted an argument. I just wanted to disscuss it and work towards an edit.
402:
Bosnians are Serbs. Whoever disputed the fact that he was Serb is wrong. He is a Serb. I think you were trying to say that he isn't Serbian (nationality) which is true. He was Bosnian (nationality) but in ethnicity he was a "Serb", from Bosnia. There is quite a difference.
2084:
here is that "freedom" from Austria-Hungary was not the sole objective of these Young Bosnian Serbs, for many, at least, it was the restoration of the Empire of Dusan which meant taking land from several neighboring states, not just Austria-Hungary, in irredentist fashion.
974:
If we all agree that Gavrilo Princip is member of Black Hand you must be kidding when you say that Serbia has not been behind the assassination because leader of Black Hand has been Chief of the Intelligence Department in the Serbian General Staff Dragutin Dimitrijevic
398:
Gavrilo Princip was NOT a member of the Black Hand. He had links with it, but was not a member, was probably trained by it (at the most). No source or referance. I will change the first sentance, which is probably going to be counted as a major edit, but bear with me..
3830:
this man's last name pronounced correctly. As much as that is merely my own experience, I feel it may be a widely shared one. So I think that we simply have to add "printzip" in the brackets. "On principle", so to speak.. our job here is to educate. By any means.
2338:
In this article Muhamed Mehmedbašić is Bosniak nationalist and all other members of Mlada Bosna (Serbs in origin) are Yugoslavs or nationality is not named. This is a scandal !!! I speak to those who are not from former Yugoslavia - please stop this vandalism !
189:
This man started WWI, which produced WWII, which resulted in the Cold War and the eventual emergence of the United States as a hyper power with all todays plight. Could you imagine how DRASTICALLY the world would have turned out if he had not assassinated Franz?
5048:
Instead, Princip said himself, but in his own words, that he assassinated the Archduke to free the "Yugoslavs". So, then, when did Princip indicate that he meant Bosnia and Herzegovina? Or what source considers Bosnia and Herzegovina to be only Yugoslavs.
2404:
Btw, he was considered a "Yugoslav hero". Had he lived a few more years he would have doubtless been praised in Yugoslavia for his act ("fighting against imperialist oppression"). In a way, he's teh most important person in the formation of Yugoslavia. :)
3008:
There is no evidence of him ever being in contact with the Black Hand, that was Apis' job. There are just logistical connections as you say. "was a Bosnian Serb member of a secret society organization named Black Hand" So could you please alter this..?
235:
Well, for one thing, we wouldn't be writing here. If not for the rapid development of the USA, then the most used lingua franca in the western world would perhaps have been French or German, which were in very common use in Europe prior to World War I.
2386:
was comprised of people considering themselves Yugoslavs ("Illyrians") as early as the 1850s. However, since Yugoslavia did not exist (just yet), his official nationality was Serbian. Also, his ethnicity is Serbian as well. Therefore I propose we use:
3121:) - and they both clearly state that Princip was 16 when he carried out the assassination. But this article indicates he was 19. Can someone please explain this discrepancy? The source given for his age in the article is a book published in the '60s.
1856:"The house where Gavrilo Princip lived in Sarajevo was destroyed during the First World War. After the war, it became a museum in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia." How does a destroyed house become a museum? If it was rebuilt, shouldn't the article say so?
1338:
Hm? Was that comment for me? ;) All I did was read that you were talking about the July Ultimatum, so I decided to post it over here in full (and correct that someone said that most were agreed to and several not - all were agreed save for one)...
2812:) met each other during the Second World War. His parents (then still a live) were hosts to this meeting. He is a hero of serbian nationalists. He is not Yugoslav. Dont talk about things that you dont understand. Go to Ireland and study Celts.
451:
Look at it this way, even if the war was going to start a week later due to some other cause, his action WAS the spark that started the conflict. Hemming and hawing (and speculating) can be done later, but the fact of it is not different than
1695:
I could search more details on this, but to the up is correct. I have heard that several hours before the assassination Pasic has issued warrants for arrest of three of those involved in the assassination, although can't confirm this one yet.
3945:
Weren`t "freedom from Austria and unification of South Slavs" but clasic Serbian fascism and terrorism. He killed franz Ferdinand because he suported federalisation of the monarchy which meant Croats would get their part. Including Bosnia.
3618:. Because we have a reliable source that establishes that Ian McKellen considers atheism to be a religion, his infobox correctly says "Religion: Atheist". In all other cases, the assertion that atheism is a religion is an unsourced claim.
2246:
was injured during the first attempted assassination by Nedeljko Čabrinović however in looking at the entry for Boos-Waldeck it lists his date of death as October 1, 1880 thirty years before the assassination attempt had taken place.
331:
He actually contracted tuberculosis in prison, as did several of the other assassins. According to most scholars (See, "Archduke and the Assassin" or "Road to Sarajevo"), the claims that he had tuberculosis beforehand are erroneous.
997:
is wrong? I agree that Princip was a member of the Black hand along with Dimitrijevic. That we can prove. But to say Dimitrijevic was acting on the orders of the government is an assumption. The link you just provided me with
4453:! Much appreciated. I think I covered most of your comments and will look into reworking the Memorials and commemoration section and will let you know when that's complete. Let me know if I missed anything and thank you again!
3880:
The IPA isn't wrong. Its just that nobody appears to care about and/or know it, so I figured I'd just add "printzip". What could it hurt? That's me downsizing my planned edit down from adding a note "princhip and princkip are
3833:
Moreover, while I fully acknowledge the adjective pileup... we ought to mention he's a Bosnian Serb in the first sentence. Somehow. Its kind of big deal with regard to his historical role. As is his Yugoslav(ist) nationalism.
867:
source for this mans religion or religious upbringing? I think this may be relevant to this article just for debunking certain conspiracy theory's out there. I've tried to do a little searching myself but can't figure it out.
2316:
He was born in serbian familly...he was Serb...Yugoslav may be his political view like yours. That pronounce is serbian cyrillic...not yugoslav cyrillic, because such a thing dont exist. I AM NOT NATIONALIST...JUST A SERB !
1296:(See the Austro-Hungarian critique of the ultimatum for how almost all of the demands were not fully met. The idea that 8 or 9 of the 10 enumerated demands and 3 demands in the preamble were met is a popular misconception.)
2217:"These two conflicting reputations have remained throughout the world from the very moment the bullets were fired." I don't really know what is added by including this sentence. I think it should be removed or rewritten.
3659:
decided to list "Banana" as her birth date. We would document that fact in the main article with a citation to a reliable source (along with other sources that disagree and say she was born on March 28, 1986). We would
3771:. He talks about a plaque, not a statue, and his shock that it supposedly read "Gavrilo Princip struck the first blow for Serbian liberty." Of course, it did not say that at all. Nevertheless, he quotes Rebecca West's
3989:
There should be a section about the different views people have on this man and his organization. The article reads like it is glorifying him, but much of the world views him as a terrorist and murderer. It is very
3585:
On article talk pages and counting the multiple "thank you" notifications I have recieved, there are roughly ten editors favoring "Religion = None" for every editor who opposes it. Of course anyone is free to post an
650:
This article claims that Pincip's bullet killed the Archduke's wife instantly, while the article specifically dedicated to the assassination states that she died fifteen minutes after being shot. Can someone clarify?
3307:
Should the article contain modern views of Princip and his act. In Serbia and Republic of Srpska he is celebrated as a hero. The rest of the world has a different view. I think it should be mentioned in the article.
632:. Not just one Browning Automatic Pistol is shown along with Franz Ferdinand's uniform there, but three. According to museum staff, these pistols were carried by Black Hand members during the assassination, but do
1323:
the Serbian gov. was behind the assassination, it was the ultimatum that started the War. This is in either case not the issue, the issue is wether or not it can be proven that Dimitrijević was acting on his own.
2123:
anything. My intended meaning was that the phrase "it is understandable", as used in this discussion, is insiduous, dismissive, and likely to rankle. Perhaps I should have used another example to make my point.
2747:
Well said, but most people in (educated) Europe know that. Its in Anglo-American circles where everything is "dumbed-down". Eg People actually think that the American Civil War was about freeing coloured slaves
4473:
I updated the Memorials and commemoration section and merged some paragraphs together and decided to remove the Portrayals section. Let me know your thoughts and if there's any other feedback you have. Thanks!
74:
Regarding the "freakish set of coincidences", didn't the archduke's car actually take a wrong turn while attempting to escape the assassination that brought it in the path of Princip or something of the sort.
4571:"Gavrilo Princip died on 28 April 1918, three years and ten months after the assassination. At the time of his death, weakened by malnutrition and disease, he weighed around 40 kilograms (88 lb; 6 st 4 lb)."
2720:
Somebody must've noticed there was some cafe in the street so he/she assumed Princip went there for a bite. Quite silly really. They've got him having a sandwich one minute and a packet of cyanide the next.
166:
Bosnian Serbs, campaigning for Bosnian freedom, who probably would have liked to have seen Serbo-Bosnian unity. If you are unclear on the definitions of a "Serb" and a "Serbian" look elsewhere on this site.
1259:
4. To purge its forces and fire all officers from the military and administration that are considered by Austria-Hungary to be anti-AustroHungarian propagandists, Vienna will supplement the list afterwards
1123:
because in my thinking it is NPOV because it is showing everybody reasons for start of WWI. There is no question that killing is order by Chief of the Intelligence Department in the Serbian General Staff--
2144:
The fact that it does have few characteristics in common with Italian irredentism is not enough. These people were certainly not fighting for the liberation of "unredeemed" Serbia ("Serbia Irredenta").--
1274:
9. To give formal explanations to Austria-Hungary regarding the statements of esteemed Serbian emissaries in Serbia and abroad, whose statements were interpreted by Austria-Hungary as potentially hostile
3025:
There are almost no references on the section that covers the details of assassination of Ferdinand, such as what specifically happened in the hours and minutes leading up to the assassination it needs
4527:
I cleaned up the assassination section, removing any extraneous detail, as well as the lead, and added any info mentioned in the lead that was previously missing to the body of the article. Thanks! --
1078:
has ordered killings. Can somebody seriously claim that for example Soviet Union is innocent for killings ordered by chief of KGB military strategic intelligence (this is 1 of 4 major KGB sectors) ?
679:"although it is not proven, it is thought that Gavrilo Princip's brother beat him, giving him brain damage. it is thought that at the time he assassinated Franz Ferdinand, he had long been insane."
3691:, who strongly self-identifies as an atheist, nobody had the slightest problem with saying that Teller is an atheist. It was the claim that atheism is a religion that multiple editors objected to.
2456:, I tend to lean towards the latter. Both are basically correct, but the latter is a different orthographic system, and certainly the latter is the one used in former Yugoslavia. If there was a
1493:, you reject it completely. That's why its called an "ultimatum": its non-negotiable. In either case I think we should explain the matter in detail and not leave any room for misinterpretation. --
5050:
1253:
2. The Serbian government must break all connections to the National Defense and assist in its abolition as well as any other Serb organization that deals with propaganda against Austria-Hungary
328:
He was going to die anyways, so he was ready to do more extreme things. If he didn't have tuburculousis then he wouldn't have been willing to throw his life away (prison or attempted suicide).
2508:
Do you agree? Why don't we wait 24 hours for any disagreements to this proposal (I'll put notices on the talk pages of everyone involved) and if there are no disagreements we can go with that?
484:"One nobody from a backwater in a peripheral province of a empire on the sidelines of world affairs cannot start a world war." You mean like Napolean, Lincoln, Hitler, Washington, Stalin...
370:
I backed out the change from sandwich to ham sandwich because it broke linkage, did not add clarity or meaningful detail to the topic at hand and provided no sitation to back up the claim --
1265:
6. To conduct in cooperation with the Austro-Hungarian Court an investigation of the Sarajevo Assassination and by Austro-Hungarian instruct to process anyone indicted on the soil of Serbia
4561:"Princip attempted suicide with a cyanide pill, but it was out-of-date, then tried to shoot himself, but the pistol was wrestled from his hand before he had a chance to fire another shot."
2730:
When talking about the cause of WWI one should look at the real geopolitical and global economic reasons for the war, not some guy in the Balkans. Ah, the dumbing-down of history... :) --
1934:
Anyway, this is a long discussion, I propose we simply call it what it was and let the reader decide on the term. Why don't we use "movement advocating the union of Bosnia with Serbia". --
3327:
This article does not list sources. But it does list certain facts which should be included in the short article on Gavrilo Princep which anyone if they wish to can research and verify.
945:
The lead paragraph seems a little biased to me. It says that Serbia rejected a request to investigate the assasination and also that the Serbian government was behind the assassination!
2427:
external empire. Because I think you'd agree that if he were alive today, he would likely think of himself as a Serb first. So I actually think the compromise you put forward, namely "
1590:"leading Austria-Hungary and Germany to request that Serbia investigate the crime on Serbian soil. Serbian rejection of these requests set off a chain of events that led to World War I."
3750:
now become a self-fulfilling prophecy?)? Have I just spookily wandered into a parallel universe, perhaps because today is Friday the 13th? Or has my memory being playing tricks on me?
1923:
the movement was striving towards the independence of all South Slavic people from Austrian rule. It did not advocate the expansion of Serbia into Bosnia and Croatia, it advocated the
5004:
At his trial, Princip stated that: "I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be freed from Austria."
3257:
193:"This man started WW1"- that's ridiculous. You should look more into the causes of world war one. One man (especially if he isn't rich and powerful) can't cause something like WW1.
3173:
I feel the link to the WWI article in the opening ("This was used as the motive for the First World War") should be replaced with a link to the Causes of WWI article. Any support?
4364:
This section is entirely unreferenced. If it needs including, it would probably benefit from a conversion to prose, and commentary added, possibly discussing how he was portrayed.
4349:
This reads like a rather bland list. I would suggest either converting it into an actual table, or blending it together better, certainly merging some of the paragraphs together.
573:
government and Serbian king was created 1916. 2 years after assassination. Annexation crises, attempt to join Serbian forces during Balkan Wars, ... - all facts that he was Serb!
3144:
We cannot use nowadays cathegories for the past, is one of the nationalist (any nationalism) classic mistakes. As hobsbawm says its nore dangerous the anachornism than the lie.
1982:
The Italian historian obviously draws parallels in his work with his own country's history, which is understandable. However, I must once again emphasize the differences between
883:
I think he was not supposed to be (very) religious, as an anti-imperialist and an idealist. Though I too have failed to get a definitive answer on the Web, maybe that's why... --
2570:
would make Ivan anti-serb also? Hell I was more lenient and made it Bosnian. Why do you insist on stressing ethnicity in the introduction when its later addressed like in the
951:
Austria gave Serbia a 15 point ultimatum and a 48 hour deadline. Serbia agreed to some points and asked for others to be referred to the International Tribunal at the Hague.
4621:
3723:
In my opinion, "Religion = None" is the best choice for represents the data accurately and without bias. I also have no objection to removing the religion entry entirely. --
341:
Princip's page) on Princip's involvement (for want of a better word) in the assassination, as well as any correspondence that may still exist between Princip and Tankosic.
4669:
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1663:
In the end, we must also also remember that the Government of the Kingdom of Serbia informed Vienna of the assassination through its ambassador before it had occurred. --
636:
include the one used by Princip. Princip's weapon disappeared by the end of WW II (allegedly stolen) and has not been recovered yet, although its serial number is known.
2282:
He was Serb...Yugoslavs were not exist at that time. He didnt now what is Yugoslav, because that term apears 10 years after his death. Yugoslavs are not nationality. --
159:
That was similar to the Black Hand. However, there were ideological differences between the right-wing Black Hand and members of Young Bosnia, who espoused anarchism.
3783:
by David Binder from 1964 explicitly states "there is no statue of Princip in Sarajevo..." The plaque Holbrooke is supposedly referring to was replaced in the 1987 by
4102:
1994:
longer characterization. The fact that the assassins envisaged SHS to be a Serb-dominated union of South Slavs does that change the fact that it would be a union of
4125:
1990:, where there are indeed many. This is Knowledge (XXG), and labeling should be avoided as it promotes a particular POV. I do not see why you disagree with an only
4556:"After Čabrinović's failed attempt, Princip and the remaining conspirators lost their opportunity to attack because of the heavy crowds and the car's high speed."
3635:
clear to all readers, and they can and should go to the article text to find out which of the subtly different variations of not belonging to a religion applies.
137:
Are you really sure about this? In most textbooks you can read, that he really was a menber of Black Hand. For me it´s great shock to read something different.--
2302:
please... ever heard of the Illyrian movement? Those men did not consider themselves Croats or Serbs or Slovenes, and we're talking about the 19th century(!) --
4882:
3560:
133:
In fact many Croats and some Muslims were members of this organization. Princip was never member of Black Hand, but some members of that group supported him.
5040:
if he sought to end Austro-Hungarian rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina, then why did he kill the man who wanted to do exactly that? And why did he not just say
3709:
948:
According to "First World War" by "Martin Gilbert" ISBN 000637665. who has now become "Sir martin Gilbert" because of his written contribution to history.
4673:
4665:
763:
a region within Serbia (nor was it ever, I think), Bosnia was annexed by Austro-Hungary and was previously an isolated province of the Ottoman Empire. --
2382:
He undoubtedly considered himself a Yugoslav (per his own statement, as I recall). Being a Yugoslav is not a "political view", it is a nationality. The
406:
1282:
The Serbian government accepted nine of ten, that is it refused to accept six and suggested that it be solved at the International Court of Justice. --
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and arguments such as "atheism is just another religion: it takes faith to not believe in God" are a standard argument used by religious apologists.
2926:
I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria.
2834:
I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria.
1392:
that simple ;) You'll just have to make your position clear now, are you an imperialist or a communist?! *grabs throat* Answer damn you! :P --
978:. I am really interested to hear story in which country is not guilty of crime which is organizated by Chief of the Intelligence Department ?--
711:
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3695:
wrote "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby", so we know that Penn objects to having atheism identified as a religion.
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If anyone can help, please attach sources here. Read: "The Guns of August" and "The Proud Tower" both by Barbara W. Tuchman. Martin Keyser
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as he hung out on the corner waiting for the Ferdinand to arrive. Being a really hot day his shoes sank slightly into the warmed bitumen.
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Gavrilo Princip was a Yugoslav nationalist, not a Serbian nationalist, there are many sources available to demonstrate this. The group
5054:
2850:. There is the evidence of Princip calling himself a Yugoslav nationalist. Go to hell and f*ck yourself you ignorant racist bastard!--
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5. To authorize the Austro-Hungarian authorities to freely work on coercion of acts against Austria-Hungary on the territory of Serbia
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3470:
There are many reasons for not saying "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in Knowledge (XXG) infoboxes. They include:
3991:
3858:
The ethnicity thing is easy, I think. We should simply work out a better phrasing. One that allows the reader to breathe properly :D
3289:
1529:
not be forgotten that the Black Hand massacred the Serbian royal family in 1903 and led Serbia to the brink of civil war (again). --
926:
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3563:. Opinions were mixed, but the two positions with the most support were "Religion = None" or removing the Religion entry entirely.
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957:
I hope to get some feedback as I would like to edit this soon without causing any upset to any regular contributors of this page.
3011:
He was a Serb, not a Serbian for anyone unclear. Bosnians can be Serbs too. It is an ethnic group. Serbians are the nationality.
3000:, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
2545:- writter who declared himself as a Serb, although with Bosniak origin, Producer removed nationality Yugoslav and added Bosniak
1256:
3. To remove from public education any content that incites or could be interpreted to incite propaganda against Austria-Hungary
444:, prompted the Austria-Hungarian action against Serbia that led to World War I. He is commonly known as the man who started the
102:
My Western Civilization textbook 5th ed. (Jackson J. Spielvogel) lists the name as being spelt with two L's - Gavrillo Princip.
4044:
Also Adolf Hitler thought that Gavrilo Princip is terrorist, so it's "nice" to see that some people share opinion with him...
3644:
502:
The prose was quite dense, I've edited it to make it a bit more readable (hopefully), while still getting the meaning across.--
200:
Lincoln wasn't rich, Hitler wasn't rich, gee wiz almost every important man in history wasn't rich, what are you talking about?
2691:
Princip had gone into Moritz Schiller's cafe for a sandwich, having apparently given up, when he spotted Franz Ferdinand's car
115:
Potiorek (the Governor of Bosnia at the time) alerted the driver of his error, the driver stopped--right in front of Gavrilo.
3779:, which was nearly identical to the one the Nazis had stolen and was put up in 1953. Again, no mention of "Serbian liberty".
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2666:
I was wondering if a picture of Gavrilo's cell could be put into the article. There's a picture of it in Wikimedia Commons.
553:
Gavrilo Princip actually contracted TB after being imprisoned, this fact has been confirmed by a descendant of his brother.
4318:
The article says there are six conspirators lining the route, but then after the second one throws a grenade, it says that
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In the case of Penn, Teller and many others, they are atheists who reject all theistic religions, but they also reject all
1677:!! this I haven't heard before! really? Are there sources on this? I'd be fascinated to learn more about the communiqué. --
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1731:". If you're interested in the war in precise, next to Martin Gilbert (whom you already know) I recommend Hew Strachan. --
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Also there was a secret Austrian document that says that the Serbian government were not implicated in the assassination.
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I removed it, for two reasons: (a) weasel words; (b) I don't know of any other source that mentions anything about this.
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to Serbia. Serbia had reservations with one of the requests and this set off a chain of events that led to World War I."
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Do we know Princip and his group were working on orders from Dimitrijević? If so, I certainly support your view, Zen. --
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b) Serbians totally refused and ignored Austro-Hungary's innocent diplomatic pleas for justice, because they are guilty
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7. To momentarily arrest two named persons indicted for the assassination by Austro-Hungary's preliminary investigation
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Thanks, that's look much better. There are four places I'd like to see references added, and then I think we're done:
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Indeed, this should be addressed. The article looks written by admirers of this figure. It must become more balanced.
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And he was. No matter whether his cause was just or not, he used terror to get his way. Hitler was also a terrorist.
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Archive 142#Changing "Religion = none" to "Religion = Atheist" on BLP infoboxes
3439:(Please note that nobody has a problem with the use of "Atheist" in the article text. This only concerns infoxoxes.)
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is the system used in Russia, Belarus, etc. And this seems to be the standard Knowledge (XXG) is using, see, e.g.
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Japan and Mexico, and already fully preparing a plan of invading the Netherlands to kick the French out of the war?
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http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/aktuelno.293.html:389051-Na-cuvenoj-fotografiji-hapsenja-nije-Gavrilo-Princip
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8. To by efficient measures prevent illegal transfer of weapons and explosives across the Austro-Hungarian border.
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European thrones. Unless somebody can explain this peculiar statement, I'll remove the later part in a few days.
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There is a movie from 1990 "Gavre Princip". It is a austrian-german production with international cast and staff.
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No. The car was on a return trip, as the Archduke wanted to visit the victims of the first botched assassination.
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Just want to say that Adolf Hitler wanted Gavrilo Princip plaque, when he invaded Yugoslavia in 1941. He got it:
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A well-balanced overview of Princip's life and role in the events that led to the start of the First World War.
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he is a Croat. Direktor didnt care for it because he is a Croat himself. They only want Serbs to be Yugoslavs --
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Also, the local developments and the assassination itself are in direct connection to the 1908/09 happenings. --
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Gavrilo Princip was a Bosnian citizen not Serbian, he was mayor of Sarajevo. User:Falcon-Eagle2007. 9:00PM GMT
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If Gavrilo didn´t succeed, Austrohungaria would have found another excuse to start the war -Gavrilo´s words...
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I realise that this in its self does not prove anything but neither have I seen anything to prove otherwise.
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Exactly. I've often wondered, "what would the world look like today if not for that one shot in Sarajevo!"
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http://www.telegraf.rs/vesti/1131171-ovako-je-izgledao-gavrilo-princip-kada-je-ubio-franca-ferdinanda-foto
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3400:’s history of WWI that the guy is now having public statues erected in his honor. If so, why and where? —
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The lead introduction is inaccurate, Gavrilo Princip was a Yugoslav nationalist, not a Serbian nationalist
2549:. I think Devill can understand in this example what kind of person Producer is (ANTISERB, NOT YUGOSLAV)--
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1. Any sort of publications that fuse hatred or hostile feelings towards Austria-Hungary must be prevented
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His resting place does not need citing in the infobox; as above, the citation in the body is sufficient.
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He declared himself as a Yugoslav nationalist aiming for the unity of ALL south slavs. Here is the link:
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In the end it is not important if Serbian government has ordered killings. Only important thing is that
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Hmm, my point is that, since the guy was the Serbian Chief of Intelligence, we must find proof that he
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on 9 May 1911, but the Black Hand was there in 1903 and responsible for the Obrenovics' extermination.
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A pistol was used by Princip, not a gun. A gun is a piece of artillery. I have made several gun edits
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Me%C5%A1a_Selimovi%C4%87&diff=298817619&oldid=298814043
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seem to want it to be different --- are there any references which would support your contention? --
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If you write Gavrilo Princip and Apis in google you will have many hits. For example I will use this
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OK I agree. It should be solution for other similar articles, with the same problem. In the article
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a mayor; he was a 19-year-old kid who had dropped out of college at the time of the assassination.--
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Thanks for your quick work on this. I have a couple of remaining concerns for Good article status:
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Personally, I would merge the second and third paragraphs, but that is personal preference really.
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I have just listened to two lectures on the origins of WWI - one by Prof. John Merriman of Yale (
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Considering that you are interested in the very intro in the war, I'd recommend John H. Mauer's "
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put "Birth date = Banana" in the infobox, because that would cause some readers to stop and say
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http://www.visitsarajevo.biz/history/austro-hungarian-empire/the-assassination/gavrilo-princip/
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The assassination article is correct. This article on Princip is not sufficiently referenced.
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A nice piece of work on a significant, but undercovered subject in modern history. Good work.
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I will look into blending/merging the content better. Will try and get that done soon, thanks!
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article says that the Black Hand was founded in 1911, which sounds kind of strange to me... --
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Famous picture of Gavrilo Princip (second from right) being arrested by police is not correct
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yeah and if austria hungary did not declare war, then there would be no ww2 or anything else
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Surely it was only four that lost the opportunity, as the first had already squandered his?
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Alleged statue to Princip in Sarajevo during Bosnian War allegedly shocked Richard Holbrooke
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Why are you telling us? If it's that important and it's verifiable, place it in the article
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In fulfilling justice they do not stand under any authority, but judge solely upon the Law.
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that Dimitrijević was working independently on this, but considering the target, it is not
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saying Serbia is responsible for World War I! Far from it! I'm just being objective. Even
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Is there evidence (Gilbert?) that he undertook this independently from the government? --
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government, but we do not know for certain whether the government actually ordered it. --
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correct pronunciations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111".
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Anyone has a reliable source mentioning his time in Vranje and the following content?
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http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ZeughausGavriloPrincip.jpg
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In many cases, it technically correct, but incomplete to the point of being misleading.
3415:"Religion = None" vs. "Religion = Atheist" or "Religion = None (atheist)" in infoboxes.
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reference. Bosnia was only a region within Serbia--not a country. Gavrilo Princip was
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please stop the problematic edits, see the edit log, better discuss here. Thank You.(
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even says that the government arrested him in 1917 in a crackdown on the black hand.
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2962:. London, England, UK: C. Hurst & Co. Ltd, 2003. Pp. 24.) Princip was a Serb by
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that he associated with was not a Serb-only group, it included Muslims and Croats.--
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No State authority, neither legislative, nor executive, can fulfill the courts' duty
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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=165946&p=1464944#p1464944
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According to the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand section, it claims that
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What if we all offer up some alternative wordings to see what the others think.
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Last edited at 13:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:49, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
815:. (lol) It was a part of Serbia (for some time at least) in the Medieval ages. --
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
4320:"..five other conspirators, including Princip, lost an opportunity to attack.."
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Gavrilo is correct in Serbian. I think it is written the same way in English.
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No need to cite the date of birth here, citing it in the body is sufficient.
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It's all pretty factually correct. But he wasn't a member of the Balck Hand.
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He was Eastern Orthodox (Serbian), but really an 100% anarchistic atheist. --
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Austria-Hungary was multiethnic country at the time of national romanticism.
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the Empire. The same was true of the Roman Empire, and every other Empire.
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1931:. (Of course, the local movement concerned itself with Bosnia specifically.)
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This exact quote is listed twice in the article. Is this really necessary?
4156:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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It attempts to shoehorn too much information into a one-word infobox entry
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10. To without delay update Austria-Hungary on fulfillment of these duties
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He was refused as young, physically undeveloped and sick (Tuberculosis).
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The article deals very well with the balance between terrorist and hero.
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points of Princip's life, without going into more detail than necessary.
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Added a sentence to the lead to bring this out more. 20:39, 23 May 2018
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when serbs use turks to refer to slavic muslims or nowadays "bosnjaks".
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The Outbreak of the First World War: Strategic Planning, Crisis Decision
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you have some new revolation with sources please leave it as a pistol...
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controversial person. Perhaps we should simply state the bare facts? --
4566:"Instead, he received the maximum sentence of twenty years in prison."
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Picture after torture in Austrian prison was used to humiliate Princip
3708:-theistic religions, and a large number of non-religious beliefs. See
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Thanks for that Pax. That is part of the point I am trying to make.
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Is that because no true Eastern Orthodox person would do such a thing?
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Is there an ISBN/OCLC number available for Dedijer, Vladimir (1966)?
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1624:"leading Austria-Hungary and Germany to issue a document know as the
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a US Army field manual. A handgun is a gun. --
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who sought an end to Austro-Hungarian rule in Bosnia and Herzegovina
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Also that plaque was used in war trophy exhibition in Nazi Germany:
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Thank you very much for your quite exceptionally informative reply,
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and the Black Hand which advocated Bosnia's unification with Serbia.
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it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail
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to Serbia which set off a chain of events that led to World War I."
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Gilbert says this. Quoted from "First world war by Martin Gilbert"
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I added references to the four places mentioned above. Thanks, --
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Chief of the Intelligence Department in the Serbian General Staff
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Chief of the Intelligence Department in the Serbian General Staff
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Sources needed for material on the details of the assassination
3445:"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
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to think they worked "freelance", I tend to agree with you. --
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therefore Austrian Emperor thought that was a boorish think.--
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Problem with Count Ludwig Joseph von Boos-Waldeck Information
1459:, nor can the courts fulfill legislative or executive power.
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I agree with Harris though, the precise problem is the word "
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Many atheists strongly object to calling atheism a religion,
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the nationality is Croat. Ivan Meštrović was the member of
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I will place the article on hold pending further comments.
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of Croats Slovenes and Serbs into a single state, i.e. the
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for an incomplete list. Atheism just skims the surface of
3458:"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position."
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according to the domino effect of the history of events.
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if they are really interested and make up their own mind.
1596:"leading Austria-Hungary and Germany to issue a ten point
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Princip's weapon at the Museum of Military History, Vienna
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ultimatum in the lead paragraph, but it says that Serbia
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Here you can find the Prinicp's photo before torture :
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wrongly copied in thousands of books and new articles.
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The Devil's Advocate: but if you reject any point in an
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If we all go now and read the lead paragraph on Princip.
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Well, that was embarrassing... :P ok, thank you Pax. --
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Location of the Pistol used to assassinate the Archduke
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There was a picture of Princip fullbody in this article
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not a fight for the liberation of unredeemed Serbia. --
4248:"..which had already caused the loss of his right arm.
2435:", is a reasonable one and possibly the most accurate.
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Thank you for the review, much appreciated! Best, --
3117:) and the other by Prof. Richard Evans of Cambridge (
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Donnelley, Paul (2012) doesn't need an access date.
3576:, and again the consensus was for "Religion = None".
1986:, which basically has only one nationality, and the
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I think its safer if I pick the same side as you ;)
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True, Bosnia has allways been seperate from Serbia.
4289:"..and made the 280 kilometres (170 mi) journey.."
2960:Yugoslavism: histories of a failed idea, 1918-1992
2808:His house was a place where serbian nationalists (
2696:story is false and that no sandwich was involved.
456:being the spark that led to the US involvement in
437:Do the parentheticals help or benefit in any way?
4876:and other media, where possible and appropriate.
3574:Template talk:Infobox person#Religion means what?
3485:religion -- but "Religion = None" is unambiguous.
4034:https://www.vreme.com/g/images/1150950_14-01.jpg
2687:I have removed the following from this article:
4246:This would possibly sound more encyclopedic as
2996:, and are posted here for posterity. Following
1462:Justice is persecuted in the name of the King.
154:was ethnic Muslim and member of Young Bosnia.
4881:(images are tagged and non-free content have
3710:List of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episodes
2990:The comment(s) below were originally left at
2928:" - Gavrilo Princip, during his trial in 1914
2836:" - Gavrilo Princip, during his trial in 1914
8:
3666:"wait...what? Banana is not a birth date..."
3493:It is highly objectionable to many atheists.
394:Member of Black Hand? Serb ethnicity dispute
3670:"wait...what? Atheism is not a religion..."
3235:Quoting from this 30 Aug 2013 article from
1604:The reader can then follow the link to the
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3377:buried/reburied with any religious ritual.
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4313:Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand
1224:working on behalf of Serbia, not that he
384:I'm guessing vandalism, but I don't know.
185:Most significant man of the 20th century?
4499:The first revolves around criteria 3b: "
4359:Portrayals on stage, film and television
4293:"..the 280-kilometre (170 mi) journey.."
3590:on the subject (I suggest posting it at
3335:paying no tax and getting away with it.
1515:a) Serbians assassinated Franz Ferdinand
676:82.39.41.54 posted the following today:
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1388:Heh, Harris, you're in the Balkans now,
993:So you are saying that a top historian
549:http://www.bookrags.com/Gavrilo_Princip
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5051:2600:1002:B011:C1C:5977:8507:77CD:FC9B
3592:Knowledge (XXG):Centralized discussion
2942:. He was associated with the movement
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
4419:I added ISBNs for those I could find
4244:"..which had cost him his right arm."
3476:It implies something that is not true
2460:then one might have an argument, but
1929:Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
1521:c) The Serbians started the Great War
1247:The following is the July Ultimatum:
7:
2244:Count Ludwig Joseph von Boos-Waldeck
2106:person or his work in any way. ").--
3735:Edited 11:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
3572:More recently, it was discussed at
2932:Here are sources for his statement:
2840:Here are sources for his statement:
1510:refused to conduct an investigation
628:I am returning from a visit to the
4416:section could also do with ISBNs.
3862:anyway? It seems like we are just
630:Museum of Military History, Vienna
24:
3347:he did what he did is secondary.
3282:Gavrilo Princip: hero or villain?
2998:several discussions in past years
2946:which predominantly consisted of
1998:(in their view three) nations. --
1159:OK I get it you typed it enough.
366:Further edit summary explanations
127:group Young Bosnia (Mlada Bosna)
119:Mlada Bosna was not Serbian group
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3559:This was discussed at length at
2589:One more thing - in the article
1175:Here's the thing, I agree it is
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4210:"..known as the July Ultimatum.
3767:Holbrooke repeats the story in
3645:principle of least astonishment
2298:No radical Serbian nationalist
5042:to free Bosnia and Herzegovina
4969:00:43, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
4642:(prose, spelling, and grammar)
4268:Removed citation from infobox
4208:Same with the sentence ending
3655:Consider what would happen if
3131:15:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
2890:13:48, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
1837:Some problems with the article
1562:No, they were "upgraded" into
687:21:58, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
656:08:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
543:Gavrilo Princip was a Yugoslav
253:13:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
230:17:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
1:
4992:13:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
4943:09:01, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
4597:07:51, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
4547:08:47, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
4536:03:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
4514:12:50, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
4483:04:59, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
4462:02:06, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
4440:12:01, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
4179:09:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
3985:Freedom Fighter or Terrorist?
3935:08:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
3815:11:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
3797:17:41, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
3760:12:09, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
3733:02:06, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
3410:05:33, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
3323:Background on Gavrilo Princep
3271:12:28, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
2993:Talk:Gavrilo Princip/Comments
2980:06:05, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
2917:13:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
1832:03:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
1043:Government then fair enough.
667:17:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
360:21:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
309:23:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
175:
142:16:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
4930:
4907:
4889:
4858:
4833:
4804:
4790:
4761:
4743:
4729:
4715:
4680:
4646:
4006:22:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
3962:20:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
3251:18:12, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
2227:17:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
1022:controversial issue about a
747:22:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
716:20:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
375:23:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
324:21:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
123:Princip was a member of the
89:07:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
5081:20:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
5059:21:04, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
4340:Memorials and commemoration
3904:12:22, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
3876:23:32, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
3853:22:52, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
3594:) to get an official count.
3076:Link to source in serbian.
2804:21:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
2758:11:27, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
2205:01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
2187:22:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2170:01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
2153:22:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2133:01:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
2115:22:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2094:22:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2065:22:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2032:22:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
2007:19:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1968:18:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1943:11:14, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1908:04:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1883:01:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1866:00:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
1852:16:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
1306:19:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
935:02:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
641:09:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
5096:
5044:if that is what he meant?
4627:
4076:13:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
3387:15:01, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
3366:12:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
3062:15:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
3036:01:42, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
2870:He is responsible for the
2860:01:14, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
2683:Gavrilo Princip's sandwich
2669:Bejinhan a.k.a. Evangeline
2654:00:59, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
2468:. So my overall proposal:
2448:As for the other issue of
1800:10:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
1786:10:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
1772:10:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
892:08:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
878:06:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
772:23:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
610:
517:13:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
507:01:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
476:01:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
465:19:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
210:21:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
79:20:50, Oct 25, 2003 (UTC)
5026:16:52, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
4445:Thank you for the review
4214:Removed citation in lead
4195:Removed citation in lead
4060:12:29, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
3318:19:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
3225:06:11, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
3103:04:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
3005:
2678:03:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
2637:19:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
2615:08:24, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
2584:15:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
2559:06:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
2532:16:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
2414:09:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
2374:22:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
2268:06:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
1818:20:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
1753:15:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
583:06:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
566:15:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
538:08:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
442:assassination in Sarajevo
440:"The event, known as the
423:15:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
389:05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
293:02:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
176:Removing 'Legacy' section
171:15:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
5031:the lede is not accurate
4154:Talk:Gavrilo Princip/GA1
4022:22:10, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
3978:20:39, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
3427:, This comment concerns
3372:Apparent Orphan Citation
3198:15:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
3183:13:58, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
3163:15:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
3084:Bosnian link in english
2958:.(Source: Dejan Djokić.
2781:14:50, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
2739:09:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
2715:07:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
2682:
2349:11:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
2333:14:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2311:13:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
2292:13:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
1722:19:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
1706:12:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
1686:22:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1673:21:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1658:21:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1639:18:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1618:18:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1588:Instead of this section
1580:13:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1557:12:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1539:01:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1502:17:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1484:17:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1418:18:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
1401:16:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1383:14:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1363:13:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1349:13:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
1333:23:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1292:23:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1237:19:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1213:18:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1192:13:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1169:10:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
1150:22:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
1133:20:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
1113:19:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
1092:19:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
1070:15:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
1053:15:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
1035:13:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
1011:07:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
988:01:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
969:20:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
910:17:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
853:10:24, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
825:17:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
795:21:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
605:10:13, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
274:16:52, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
99:23:51, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
4635:reasonably well written
3298:15:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
2771:heard of these songs.
2482:Denote nationality by "
1444:Courts are independent.
1315:Whoa, whoa, whoa, I am
495:42, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
150:Re Croats and Muslims:
4624:for what they are not)
2662:Gavrilo Princip's cell
859:What was his religion?
725:. Gavrilo Princip was
222:5:20, 20 October 2006
4870:It is illustrated by
4821:neutral point of view
4775:broad in its coverage
3941:Princip`s motivations
3864:reinventing the wheel
3687:When this came up on
3356:substantial evidence.
3230:
2601:, but in the article
2490:" and orthography by
409:comment was added by
42:of past discussions.
3745:US chief negotiator
3614:have such a source:
3256:That's interesting.
3147:What do you think?
2661:
2458:Yugoslavian Cyrillic
2239:0:21, June 29, 2009
1137:It would be kind of
611:Princip's footprints
111:12:29, Mar 23. 2005
18:Talk:Gavrilo Princip
4883:fair use rationales
4606:Good work on this.
3825:Styles of Prince Ip
3231:Not Princip's photo
3108:
2565:lol I suppose this
152:Muhamed Mehmedbašić
4998:Quote listed twice
4854:No edit wars, etc.
4694:factually accurate
4325:Good catch, fixed
2986:Assessment comment
2966:and a Yugoslav by
2896:Princip was a Serb
2595:Yugoslav Committee
863:Can anyone find a
430:Painful to read...
299:Pistol not a rifle
4979:MichaelVanGulik,
4901:suitable captions
4709:reference section
4144:
4143:
4062:
4050:comment added by
3964:
3952:comment added by
3937:
3925:comment added by
3747:Richard Holbrooke
3714:Penn & Teller
3689:Teller (magician)
3425:WP:TALKDONTREVERT
3396:Saw something on
3215:comment added by
3153:comment added by
3093:comment added by
3052:comment added by
3015:
3014:
2907:comment added by
2880:comment added by
2827:
2818:comment added by
2384:Illyrian movement
2323:comment added by
2271:
2254:comment added by
1470:
1469:
925:comment added by
843:comment added by
797:
785:comment added by
718:
702:comment added by
595:comment added by
426:
350:comment added by
264:comment added by
67:
66:
54:
53:
48:current talk page
5087:
5019:
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4835:
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4745:
4732:
4731:
4723:reliable sources
4718:
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4649:
4648:
4594:
4587:
4572:
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4557:
4544:
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4511:
4491:Further comments
4480:
4472:
4459:
4452:
4437:
4427:
4424:
4423:
4407:
4404:
4403:
4391:
4388:
4387:
4348:
4347:"In the 1930s.."
4333:
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4098:Copyvio detector
4086:
4008:
3902:
3901:
3898:
3891:
3851:
3850:
3847:
3840:
3643:It violates the
3548:It goes against
3407:
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3165:
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3064:
3003:
3002:
2995:
2919:
2892:
2737:
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2492:Serbian Cyrillic
2454:Serbian Cyrillic
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2005:
2003:
1941:
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778:Falcon-eagle2008
770:
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729:as confirmed by
704:Falcon-eagle2007
697:
607:
559:with a reference
404:
380:Son of a punany?
362:
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246:
243:
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218:the war anyway.
63:
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4962:
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4897:appropriate use
4818:It follows the
4590:
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4529:
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4509:
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4466:
4455:
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4435:
4425:
4421:
4414:Further reading
4405:
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4389:
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4300:
4291:This should be
4274:
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4201:
4197:
4148:This review is
4140:
4112:
4084:
4030:
3999:
3987:
3943:
3914:
3896:
3893:
3889:
3886:
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2872:Apollo missions
2868:
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2685:
2673:
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2141:organization".
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530:Celebration1981
446:First World War
432:
405:—The preceding
396:
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321:Noel S McFerran
316:
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280:Pistol, not gun
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4812:
4771:
4770:
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4768:
4767:
4721:(citations to
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4108:External links
4105:
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4090:
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4080:
4079:
4078:
4052:79.101.236.181
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4004:comment added
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3277:Historiography
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3167:
3155:161.111.83.200
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3095:172.218.36.145
3069:
3066:
3054:64.134.156.113
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3019:
3013:
3012:
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2984:
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2882:79.101.229.245
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2866:Apollo program
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2750:Slovenski Volk
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2657:
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2619:94.189.175.195
2603:Ivan Meštrović
2591:Ivan Meštrović
2587:
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2543:Meša Selimović
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2466:Emir Kusturica
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1887:
1886:
1885:
1874:compromise. --
1838:
1835:
1805:
1804:
1803:
1802:
1777:Agreed, rm. --
1759:
1756:
1741:
1740:
1733:PaxEquilibrium
1709:
1708:
1698:PaxEquilibrium
1693:
1665:PaxEquilibrium
1661:
1660:
1650:PaxEquilibrium
1646:
1626:July Ultimatum
1606:July Ultimatum
1594:We could have
1583:
1582:
1572:PaxEquilibrium
1567:
1564:Unity or Death
1542:
1541:
1531:PaxEquilibrium
1525:
1524:
1523:
1522:
1519:
1516:
1487:
1486:
1476:PaxEquilibrium
1468:
1467:
1464:
1441:
1434:
1432:
1431:
1423:
1422:
1421:
1420:
1386:
1385:
1352:
1351:
1341:PaxEquilibrium
1313:
1312:
1311:
1310:
1309:
1308:
1284:PaxEquilibrium
1280:
1279:
1278:
1275:
1272:
1269:
1266:
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1242:
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1099:
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1094:
1079:
1040:
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1038:
1037:
995:Martin Gilbert
991:
990:
942:
941:Lead paragraph
939:
915:
914:
913:
912:
902:PaxEquilibrium
895:
894:
860:
857:
834:
833:
832:
831:
830:
829:
828:
827:
817:PaxEquilibrium
803:
802:
801:
800:
799:
798:
750:
749:
693:
692:He was Bosnian
690:
673:
670:
647:
646:Instant death?
644:
625:
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609:
586:
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431:
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395:
392:
386:85.227.226.250
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4785:
4784:major aspects
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4507:the article.
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3769:this article
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3694:
3693:Penn Jillette
3690:
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3450:Penn Jillette
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3398:Extra Credits
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3109:Princip's Age
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2766:Music section
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514:CodeCarpenter
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471:centuries).--
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462:CodeCarpenter
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5035:
5034:
5008:
5003:
4981:
4978:
4975:Recent edits
4963:
4925:
4919:
4894:
4880:
4871:
4853:
4847:
4828:
4819:
4795:
4781:
4774:
4748:
4734:
4720:
4706:
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4651:
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4628:
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4605:
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4494:
4477:
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4182:
4171:
4161:
4160:
4147:
4136:Instructions
4046:— Preceding
4043:
4037:
4031:
4000:— Preceding
3988:
3948:— Preceding
3944:
3921:— Preceding
3915:
3882:
3832:
3828:
3777:this plaque
3772:
3743:
3716:'s unbelief.
3705:
3678:
3669:
3665:
3661:
3642:
3625:
3616:Ian McKellen
3601:
3547:
3492:
3475:
3461:
3457:
3448:
3444:
3418:
3397:
3395:
3375:
3349:
3345:
3341:
3337:
3333:
3329:
3326:
3306:
3303:Modern views
3288:May 6, 2014
3286:The Guardian
3285:
3280:
3243:User:Brenont
3236:
3234:
3211:— Preceding
3207:
3172:
3169:Cause of WWI
3149:— Preceding
3146:
3143:
3139:
3112:
3089:— Preceding
3083:
3078:
3075:
3071:
3048:— Preceding
3044:
3024:
3016:
3007:
2989:
2959:
2944:Young Bosnia
2931:
2925:
2924:
2903:— Preceding
2899:
2876:— Preceding
2869:
2839:
2833:
2832:
2814:— Preceding
2807:
2792:Young Bosnia
2789:
2769:
2703:
2698:
2694:
2690:
2689:
2686:
2665:
2646:98.165.15.98
2626:
2623:188.2.206.10
2617:Zrno - I am
2588:
2540:
2481:
2341:188.2.206.10
2337:
2325:188.2.206.10
2315:
2299:
2284:188.2.206.10
2281:
2273:
2241:
2235:
2216:
2176:
2139:
2104:
1995:
1991:
1987:
1983:
1924:
1855:
1840:
1821:
1806:
1790:Thank you!--
1761:
1742:
1728:
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1676:
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1595:
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1369:
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1198:
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1019:
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959:
956:
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947:
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916:
870:70.4.158.133
864:
862:
839:— Preceding
835:
812:
760:
756:
734:
730:
726:
722:
695:
681:
678:
675:
672:Brain damage
662:
659:
649:
633:
627:
618:
614:
591:— Preceding
587:
558:
552:
546:
526:
523:
486:98.165.15.98
458:World War II
454:Pearl Harbor
450:
439:
436:
433:
401:
397:
383:
372:Michael Lynn
369:
352:72.130.78.29
343:
339:
330:
327:
317:
314:Tuberculosis
306:Michael Lynn
302:
283:
257:
227:K. Lastochka
224:
216:
202:98.165.15.98
192:
188:
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164:
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149:
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132:
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124:
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107:
104:
101:
95:
92:
84:
81:
73:
60:
43:
37:
4666:word choice
4383:Added ASIN
4150:transcluded
4028:Terrorist ?
3992:184.149.5.3
3781:This piece
3433:this revert
3290:92.20.31.34
3258:These books
2950:, but also
2319:—Preceding
2250:—Preceding
927:70.31.2.178
921:—Preceding
781:—Preceding
698:—Preceding
346:—Preceding
260:—Preceding
36:This is an
4755:plagiarism
4699:verifiable
4375:References
4283:Early life
4103:Authorship
4089:GA toolbox
4068:Chaosdruid
3463:Bill Maher
3379:Cloptonson
3358:Cloptonson
3026:sources.--
2773:Smallbones
2572:Ivo Andrić
2197:Werchovsky
2162:Werchovsky
2125:Werchovsky
2086:Werchovsky
2057:Werchovsky
2024:Werchovsky
1960:Werchovsky
1900:Werchovsky
1844:Werchovsky
1745:harris 578
1714:harris 578
1631:harris 578
1610:harris 578
1546:Black Hand
1410:harris 578
1375:harris 578
1298:Werchovsky
1205:harris 578
1161:harris 578
1045:harris 578
1018:This is a
1003:harris 578
961:harris 578
739:Mumia-w-18
684:Ben Kovitz
664:Werchovsky
156:Ivo Andrić
5064:RS needed
4964:SamCordes
4926:Pass/Fail
4592:SamCordes
4531:SamCordes
4478:SamCordes
4457:SamCordes
4295:I think.
4162:Reviewer:
4126:Templates
4117:Reviewing
4082:GA Review
3868:Surtsicna
3807:Tlhslobus
3803:23 editor
3789:23 editor
3785:this one
3752:Tlhslobus
3725:Guy Macon
3657:Lady Gaga
3604:unsourced
3550:consensus
3429:this edit
3263:Surtsicna
3188:Support.—
2964:ethnicity
2574:article?
2486:, ethnic
2431:, ethnic
2391:, ethnic
2219:Jimjamjak
1598:Ultimatum
1491:ultimatum
1390:nothing's
1181:probable.
504:Methodius
473:Methodius
86:DizietSma
61:Archive 1
5073:Aeengath
4399:Removed
4175:contribs
4131:Criteria
4048:unsigned
3950:unsigned
3923:unsigned
3890:Director
3839:Director
3773:accurate
3403:Llywelyn
3213:unsigned
3190:Pawyilee
3151:unsigned
3136:Bosniaks
3123:Marsoult
3091:unsigned
3050:unsigned
2952:Bosniaks
2905:unsigned
2878:unsigned
2816:unsigned
2734:DIREKTOR
2707:Mikedash
2632:DIREKTOR
2599:Yugoslav
2576:PRODUCER
2484:Yugoslav
2462:Cyrillic
2450:Cyrillic
2429:Yugoslav
2409:DIREKTOR
2389:Yugoslav
2321:unsigned
2306:DIREKTOR
2300:nonsense
2278:Yugoslav
2264:contribs
2252:unsigned
2182:DIREKTOR
2148:DIREKTOR
2110:DIREKTOR
2002:DIREKTOR
1992:slightly
1938:DIREKTOR
1878:DIREKTOR
1781:DIREKTOR
1758:Nonsense
1743:Thanks.
1681:DIREKTOR
1552:DIREKTOR
1497:DIREKTOR
1428:rejected
1396:DIREKTOR
1358:DIREKTOR
1328:DIREKTOR
1232:DIREKTOR
1187:DIREKTOR
1177:possible
1145:DIREKTOR
1108:DIREKTOR
1065:DIREKTOR
1030:DIREKTOR
923:unsigned
887:DIREKTOR
865:reliable
841:unsigned
783:unsigned
767:DIREKTOR
712:contribs
700:unsigned
638:ViennaUK
593:unsigned
419:contribs
407:unsigned
348:unsigned
262:unsigned
220:Overhere
4984:KIENGIR
4956:Harrias
4939:Harrias
4920:Overall
4798:focused
4751:copyvio
4670:fiction
4584:Harrias
4543:Harrias
4523:Harrias
4510:Harrias
4469:Harrias
4449:Harrias
4436:Harrias
4165:Harrias
4002:undated
3990:biased.
3310:Asdisis
2524:Deville
2366:Deville
1988:Balkans
1858:Altgeld
1125:Rjecina
1084:Rjecina
980:Rjecina
727:Serbian
411:ALCUS36
336:Sources
168:ALCUS36
109:naufana
39:archive
4873:images
4848:stable
4846:It is
4823:policy
4773:It is
4692:It is
4672:, and
4662:layout
4633:It is
4614:review
3602:It is
3588:WP:RFC
3421:WP:BRD
3392:Statue
2968:nation
2956:Croats
2810:četnik
2705:that.
1222:wasn't
1082:that--
1024:highly
1020:highly
97:Rabauz
4899:with
4674:lists
4616:(see
4345:From
4298:Done
4252:Done
4230:Done
4152:from
3980:(UTC)
2948:Serbs
2561:Zrno
2351:Zrno
2294:Zrno
1984:Italy
1925:union
1139:naive
813:False
757:False
755:LoL,
735:never
731:every
723:False
575:Bicca
290:Tysto
70:Route
16:<
5077:talk
5055:talk
5023:Talk
4988:talk
4753:and
4696:and
4658:lead
4656:for
4622:here
4618:here
4368:you.
4187:Lead
4169:talk
4072:talk
4056:talk
4018:talk
3996:talk
3974:talk
3958:talk
3931:talk
3897:talk
3872:talk
3846:talk
3811:talk
3793:talk
3756:talk
3729:talk
3431:and
3423:and
3419:Per
3383:talk
3362:talk
3314:talk
3294:talk
3267:talk
3247:talk
3221:talk
3194:talk
3179:talk
3159:talk
3127:talk
3119:here
3115:here
3099:talk
3058:talk
3032:talk
3028:R-41
2976:talk
2972:R-41
2970:. --
2954:and
2913:talk
2886:talk
2856:talk
2852:R-41
2824:talk
2800:talk
2796:R-41
2777:talk
2754:talk
2711:talk
2674:Talk
2650:talk
2621:and
2611:talk
2607:Zrno
2580:talk
2555:talk
2551:Zrno
2528:Talk
2488:Serb
2452:vs.
2433:Serb
2393:Serb
2370:Talk
2360:and
2345:talk
2329:talk
2288:talk
2260:talk
2223:talk
2201:talk
2166:talk
2129:talk
2090:talk
2061:talk
2028:talk
1996:many
1964:talk
1904:talk
1862:talk
1848:talk
1828:talk
1814:talk
1796:talk
1768:talk
1749:talk
1737:talk
1718:talk
1702:talk
1669:talk
1654:talk
1635:talk
1614:talk
1576:talk
1544:The
1535:talk
1480:talk
1414:talk
1379:talk
1345:talk
1302:talk
1288:talk
1226:was.
1209:talk
1165:talk
1129:talk
1121:link
1088:talk
1049:talk
1007:talk
984:talk
965:talk
931:talk
906:talk
874:talk
849:talk
821:talk
791:talk
743:talk
708:talk
601:talk
579:talk
534:talk
492:) 21
490:talk
415:talk
356:talk
270:talk
250:Talk
206:talk
139:jilm
125:Serb
77:Dori
4654:MoS
3998:)
3887:--
3883:NOT
3836:--
3706:non
3662:not
3435:.
2644:OMG
1622:Or
1317:not
761:not
634:NOT
561:.--
448:."
5079:)
5057:)
5021:|
4994:)
4990:)
4928::
4922::
4905::
4893:b
4887::
4879:a
4856::
4850:.
4831::
4825:.
4802::
4794:b
4788::
4780:a
4777:.
4759::
4747:d
4741::
4737:OR
4733:c
4727::
4719:b
4713::
4705:a
4702:.
4678::
4668:,
4664:,
4660:,
4650:b
4644::
4640:a
4637:.
4612:GA
4177:)
4074:)
4058:)
4020:)
3976:)
3960:)
3933:)
3874:)
3866:.
3813:)
3795:)
3758:)
3731:)
3460:--
3447:--
3405:II
3385:)
3364:)
3316:)
3296:)
3284:,
3269:)
3249:)
3241:--
3223:)
3196:)
3181:)
3161:)
3129:)
3101:)
3060:)
3034:)
2978:)
2939:,
2936:,
2930:.
2915:)
2888:)
2858:)
2847:,
2844:,
2838:.
2826:)
2802:)
2779:)
2756:)
2721::P
2713:)
2652:)
2613:)
2582:)
2557:)
2530:)
2405:--
2395:".
2372:)
2347:)
2339:--
2331:)
2290:)
2266:)
2262:•
2225:)
2203:)
2168:)
2131:)
2092:)
2063:)
2030:)
1966:)
1906:)
1864:)
1850:)
1830:)
1816:)
1798:)
1770:)
1751:)
1720:)
1704:)
1696:--
1671:)
1656:)
1637:)
1616:)
1578:)
1570:--
1537:)
1482:)
1466:”
1440:“
1416:)
1381:)
1347:)
1339:--
1324:--
1321:if
1304:)
1290:)
1228:--
1211:)
1167:)
1131:)
1090:)
1051:)
1009:)
986:)
967:)
933:)
908:)
876:)
868:--
851:)
823:)
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745:)
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710:•
603:)
581:)
536:)
460:.
421:)
417:•
358:)
272:)
248:|
208:)
5075:(
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5018:P
5015:I
5012:J
4986:(
4958::
4954:@
4903:)
4895:(
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4707:(
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4652:(
4586::
4582:@
4525::
4521:@
4471::
4467:@
4451::
4447:@
4426:Y
4406:Y
4390:Y
4332:Y
4305:Y
4275:Y
4259:Y
4237:Y
4221:Y
4202:Y
4172:·
4167:(
4070:(
4054:(
4016:(
3994:(
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3929:(
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413:(
354:(
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245:P
242:I
239:J
204:(
50:.
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