410:'Originally' (ie before I started intervening) there was only one Thompson and Quets quotation; I added a second before removing the first, so there could have been two only for the space of a few days, I think. The sequence of my interventions was: (1) not noticing the 1987 quotation, I added the 1990 quotation but incorrectly cited it, giving the title as that of the 1987 mimeo but giving the date as 1990. (2) I noticed the 1987 quotation and decided to remove it on the grounds that it is less easily verifiable than the 1990 quotation (although this may not be accurate; I suspect it is quoted in a more widely published source, since I've seen it before and I'm pretty sure I've never seen the mimeo). (3) I realized that I'd given incorrect citation information for the 1990 quotation, and fixed it. I'm quite confident that I've now cited the 1990 quotation accurately. The net effect of my changes has been to substitute one quotation by these authors for another, later quotation in the same vein by them. Do you think I should put the first one back in?
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group” under
Article 220a of the Criminal Code had to be aimed at the physical-biological destruction of the protected group (see, for example, A. Eser, in Schönke / Schröder, Strafgesetzbuch – Kommentar, 24th edition, Munich 1991, Article 220a, §§ 4-5 with further references). However, a considerable number of scholars were of the opinion that the notion of destruction of a group as such, in its literal meaning, was wider than a physical-biological extermination and also encompassed the destruction of a group as a social unit (see, in particular, H.-H. Jescheck, Die internationale Genocidium-Konvention vom 9. Dezember 1948 und die Lehre vom Völkerstrafrecht, ZStW 66 (1954), p. 213; and B. Jähnke, in Leipziger Kommentar, Strafgesetzbuch, 10th edition, Berlin, New York 1989, Article 220a, §§ 4, 8, 13).
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bureaucracy. Crucially, there is growing agreement that group “destruction” must involve mass killing and physical liquidation (see, e.g., Fein , Charny, Horowitz, Katz/Jones). But to repeat: this is not a feature of either
Raphael Lemkin’s original formulations or of the UN Convention. In both of these definitions, mass killing is only one of a panoply of strategies available to génocidaires; the emphasis is on the destruction of the group “as such,” not necessarily the physical annihilation of its
380:, but I provided inaccurate citation information; I've now corrected this. The later quotation has the advantage of being much easier to find for anyone who wants to look it up for themselves - middling-size libraries carry the periodical in question, but even the University of Toronto library doesn't seem to have a copy of the mimeo. However, the earlier definition is a bit fuller and more detailed. I'm not averse to including both, really, except for considerations of balance.
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genocide and he is reffering to academic scholars. I have included the same text in the main genocide article as well and will amend it appropriately once we agree on a wording here. Also could you give an example of what you mean on the formating issue? I am guessing you mean the commas, but just to make sure. Thanks.
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As the UN said "at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity" but the word is new as the term was not coined until the 1940s. So I do not see how there can be a genocide definition before the word was first coined. I have no idea on the background of most of the scholars
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On
Knowledge (XXG) there are two/three opinions on where to place ref tags for citations, before punctuation, after punctuation or a bit of both, but what the two main camps are agreed upon that the article should be internally consistent. As this article uses after punctuation, new additions should
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Because there are some problems with it that need sorting out. First a format issue, Xenovatis citations should go after punctuation in this article. Now to the substance the ECHR cites "legal scholars" not "genocide scholars". Further the ECHR was referring to legal scholars as was before the ICTY
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It's unusual to see just a listing of quotes in a
Knowledge (XXG) article. I'm not sure what value it adds - the introduction points out there are a number of different definitions, and controversy over how to define it. Of course all these definitions need to be referenced, but what value is added
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That's fine I understand your point. So it needs to be made clear thaat the ECHR is reffering to legal scholars. Once that is made is clear are there any other issues from your side? Because Jones also writes that there is "growing agreement" that physical destruction is necessary to label an event
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OK, now I've sorted it. The 1987 citation is indeed to a mimeo; the existence of this mimeo is independently confirmed by its being cited in
Current Sociology, vol. 38, no. 1, pp. 113-126, March 1990. However, this mimeo is very difficult to find. I think that it is quoted by Chalk and Jonassohn
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I don't think it matters if the word was "coined" last week. The concept goes back thousands of years and every literate culture of which I am personally aware has had it thinkers who addressed little questions like "what is right and wrong", "is victory the only criteria", "what is truth", etc.
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36. The applicant is the first person to be convicted of genocide by German courts under
Article 220a since the incorporation of that Article into the Criminal Code. At the time when the applicant committed his acts in 1992, a majority of scholars took the view that genocidal “intent to destroy a
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It seemed as if the entry for
Thompson and Quets was cited to a 1987 mimeo and flagged "needs verification". In my own bibliography of definitions of genocide I have a quotation by the same authors, cited to a 1990 book on Columbia Universtiy Press, so I deleted the older quotation and added the
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Bluntly, we have 23 definitions here (OK, some are multiples from the same philosopher), but as near as I can tell, all of the defintions are by western "philosophers", or whatever. I do not see one single oriental, african, etc. comment on the subject. While it would be a nice enrichment to
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with intent to destroy” (UN Convention), is “structural and systematic” (Horowitz), “deliberate organized” (Wallimann and
Dobkowski), “sustained” (Harff ), and “a series of purposeful actions” (Fein; see also Thompson and Quets). Porter and Horowitz stress the additional role of the state
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I have since added "cultural and intellectual aspects of genocide", again echoing Lemkin, that the destruction of a people or tribe physically also entails its destruction culturally and conversely, if and when you destroy a group's culture, you will eventually destroy it physically as a
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However, we have totally left out the musings of Mao Zedong, Stalin, Ramon
Magsaysay, Crazy Horse, Ghadaffi, "the Shah", etc. etc. etc. While not all may have addressed this subject, surely, with 85% of the world being "non western" SOMEONE must have written on the
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Additionally the majority of genocide scholars consider that group destruction must involve mass killing, i.e. physical destruction. There is a considerable number who don't hold this view however there is growing agreement on the inclusion of the destruction
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people."---Jack Nusan Porter, Jan. 20, 2008, personal comment, but also see the forward by Antony
Polonsky and preface and introduction to my latest book "The Genocidal Mind", Lanham. MD and London: University Press of America, 2006, pp. vii-xxi and 1-28.
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The list is useful because, those who have only a passing interest in genocide usually do not realise that when they read a paper by an academic that academic may be working from a totally different definition form that used by the International
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It is not possible to "pick out the key differences between them and discuss them" unless there is a reliable third party source which has done this. If you know of such papers then please summarise them and include citations to
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and ICJ judgements. Many more (most?) would take the ICJ judgement into account as one all ways does with case law. to see what problems genocide scholars have when the walk into the legal area see this article: "
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by simply listing them? I'm not convinced any is. Of course, if someone wanted to pick out the key differences between them and discuss them, that would be worthwhile, but, as it is, it doesn't look right.
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are you sure that the new citation for the remaining quote is correct as it was the earlier one? (The one you removed that had a citation that was was flagged as needing checking, not the second one). --
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without signing in so it it was an IP address in the history -- hence my confusion. I am not fussed whether the first one is put back in or not so lets go with you judgement and not put it back :-) --
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202:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Additionally the majority of genocide scholars (ECHR Jorgic v. Germany, citing A. Eser, in Schönke / Schröder, Strafgesetzbuch – Kommentar, 24th edition, Munich 1991, Article 220a, §§ 4-5,
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http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/viewhbkm.asp?sessionId=1448788&skin=hudoc-en&action=html&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649&key=63590&highlight=
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newer one. However, now that you've asked, I'm trying to double-check the citation I added and I can't seem to find the book in question. I'll follow up on this shortly.
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Why are all of the definitions from Western tradition? It seems a bit insulting to ignore the philosophical/legal traditions and writings of the rest of the world.
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The quotations are cited. There is no reason to delete any of them without discussing the proposed deletions without discussing them here on this talk page.
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include the writings of the confucian scholars, islamic theorists, indian teachers of the past, that is a level of sophism we don't need for this article.
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in their 1990 book, although I'm not sure. In my earlier edit I replaced this quotation with one from their 1990 article in Volume 12 of the periodical
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I didn't include the legal scholars since saying before 1992 could be read as implying that there was a change afterwards which I'm not sure is true.
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because it was added by an IP has not been verified. If someone can verify it then we can re-introduce it in a slightly amended version. --
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is a recognised expert in this field for example can anyone provide use of his research by any third party mentioned in this list? --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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What I have now done is left the Jones's observation in here, but linked the text of CPPCG to a new section in the article
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The West is NOT unique in this characteristic, either historically or current (Zedong, Hirohito, Mugabe, Gandhi, etc.).
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I wouldn't want to just delete them all without talking about it first, but I'd be interested to know thoughts.
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There were two different quotations by Thompson and Quets in the article before your edits, you have replaced
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which fulfils that role to a limited degree, this is just a detailed sub-article to that main article (see
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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BTW to see this distinction please see ECHR paragraph 47 immediately before it is a section heading "
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The relevant passage from ECHR I assume you are aware of since it was you who pointed it to me.
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then by all means add them providing they are specific definitions of genocide and not a
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No signature - argh! Sorry about that. Glad to clear up the confusion. :)
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More than a month has gone by. So I am removing the definition. --
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because there is no easy way to verify it the text removed is:
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with one by Tony Barta. You then changed the citation on the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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synthesis of published material which advances a position
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why did you remove the entry for Thompson and Quets? --
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124:Human rights
115:Human rights
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87:Human rights
68:WikiProjects
35:
928:Petri Krohn
902:Petri Krohn
876:Oncenawhile
816:Aaaronsmith
776:Aaaronsmith
737:Aaaronsmith
353:this change
36:speedy keep
1133:Categories
1120:Report bug
940:Dovid Katz
932:Dovid Katz
930:(Restored
922:insertion
906:Dovid Katz
896:insertion
890:Dovid Katz
842:1859845509
454:criterion.
398:second one
349:Daedalus71
58:List-class
1103:this tool
1096:this tool
846:pp. ix-xi
648:Xenovatis
583:Xenovatis
502:Xenovatis
1109:Cheers.—
1012:Genocide
917::Tataral
911:removal
774:subject.
667:genocide
494:members.
28:deletion
1056:my edit
1007:courts.
863:AfD at
675:In part
669:called
478:p.20-21
325:on the
236:on the
151:on the
64:scale.
1022:them.
298:Death
289:Death
261:Death
1033:talk
987:talk
963:talk
948:talk
924:diff
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880:talk
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839:ISBN
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143:High
34:was
1070:to
1029:PBS
1027:--
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944:PBS
904:(+
850:PBS
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754:PBS
718:PBS
703:by
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317:Mid
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