Talk:Ghislaine Maxwell/Archive 2

2737:"Former" implies she officially moved on to doing something else, like business. At this point she hasn't, officially. She's been in hiding and then detention for a couple of years, but that just makes her a socialite in hiding and a socialite in detention, right? I don't think being in disgrace, hiding, or detention necessarily or officially makes one a "former" socialite. (Of course, her side hustle was being a sex trafficker, but Knowledge can't say that, right?) Anyway, I think Vladimir.copic has provided sufficient proof numerous relevant RS do still call her "socialite" (even though that may be a euphemism at this point). 1065:

overcrowding, etc., reasons, a situation more likely during the COVID-19 pandemic which is raging through prisons across the United States where some prisons have over 1,000 active cases of the virus. When Epstein died, it became public that MDC Brooklyn was severely understaffed, with lack of coverage and corrections officers being subject to such frequent, long, mandatory shifts that they fell asleep on the job. I've updated the info as to Maxwell's placement merely to reflect that the location hasn't changed since early July 2020. It should not be reverted again without consensus being sought and confirmed.

2884: 1546: 1356: 1167: 1587:"Socialite" is a description of the source of her notability, and does not need to be a current state. If you feel the state has changed you still need a source to cite this change. Your other change, mentioning Robert Maxwell's status as a swindler, is still you using another article's sources, which is using Knowledge as its own source. It does not belong in this article anyway, as it is no more necessary to mention this in any passing reference to him than it is to say that he was the owner of a newspaper or a football club. 1333: 31: 111:, This did come up on the talk page before under the section, "American English but DMY dates?", still listed above. It is an interesting question of what determines the style of English for a given article. From what I learned during that earlier conversation, there is a default policy resolution for making the language style uniform based on the style of English that was used at origin/not-stub status. 640:: "More than $ 22 million of the assets pledged to secure the proposed bond will come from the combined resources of Maxwell and her husband, with the remainder to be posted by a handful of close family and friends, according to a person familiar with Maxwell's intentions. The forthcoming bail application, expected to be in front of U.S. District Judge Alison Nathan in the coming days, will also be 3239: 2836: 2042: 1498: 1281: 1202: 1103: 950: 863: 745: 384: 259:

modification to add that they have all been accused at some point. Since it was changed, it has always struck me as odd and imprecise. So . . . what do the RS actually say, here? I agree that some changes are needed but can’t dig into the sources immediately. Short term solution is removal but open to others comments for what aspects, if any to retain. Kind Regards,

2448:. Presumably that is a part of her "career". "Former socialite" is a statement that it such has ended. Per BLP you would need very strong sourcing to make that statement. Same as calling an actress who hasn't had a gig for year a "former actress". Second there is no reason to be trying to put such and arguable statement in Knowledge; it is not informative. 1572:"Britmax" keeps reverting "former" socialite. Ghislaine is now an inmate, not a socialite. She does not get invited anywhere. Britmax needs to include links to where she is being invited to social events. She doesn't get any invitations. She is a pariah. Nobody will touch her. So, Britmax, start including links if you want to delete "former" socialite. 3051:) for it. At this point, I'd argue both apply, but it is arguable so possibly worthy of debate. (I, for one, had only heard of Ghislaine's father and not her, until she was embroiled in the sex trafficking allegations.) I do think we need to be careful not to stuff the infobox so it is mostly about her conviction and incarceration, lest we fall foul of 620: 1250: 2091: 915: 2018:"British", or any other adjective is attached to it. I know that certain journalistic sources call Maxwell a "socialite", but, in the first place, that's merely their euphemism for "wealthy bum", and, in the second place, certain journalistic sources are idiotic. Is she in solitary confinement? If not, maybe she's very sociable in prison. 229:

both of Maxwell & the 5 men named? Is it relevant what people have been accused of & that one has been photographed w/ people accused of something? Could this as well say that Maxwell has been photographed w/ these 5 guys who have been praised for their philanthropy? I think the whole sentence should be deleted. (

3460:

I do think the infobox data have become too numerous, so I like how it is now with just her uni (and schools with reliable secondary sources mentioned below in Early life). I also agree that having both is against the template doc. (As an aside, it seems odd that there is no option for "alma maters =

1898:

Kelly is notable for being BOTH a musician AND a convicted sex offender. Maxwell is primarily known as a socialite that was also connected to Epstein (she appeared in reliable sources for several decades described as this) vs being described as a former socialite that has been held in custody but not

981:

Would you be able to do a similar write up Scott Borgerson? I found it chilling that there is not one and yet he is a prominent TECH CEO and is likely holding the money for the Epsteins. I wrote a little to get you started + some sources. Thank you. I will also gladly pay you $ 10 to write this out.

513:

This talk page is getting really long and some of the discussions haven't been active in years. Does anybody object to me using User:ClueBot III to archive old threads on this page? The archives would be available by a link at the top of this page (for example, see my talk page which has archives). I

297:

Jtbobwaysf, The lede is meant to be a summary of the article. The article's initial sections cover Maxwell's life and career until age 30. She was known from an early age, as part of the Maxwell family (a public fixture the UK in the 1980s and 1990s). It is relevant that she was publicly known prior

3861:

a BBC source from yesterday and restored the lower case. These are still not the names of A-levels, however. I wonder where Jon Kelly got his information. But what he says is this: "She was educated at Marlborough College and Oxford University, where she studied modern history and languages." I read

1948:

is the guideline here. But whichever way the consensus goes, can we please at least make sure the article text matches the citation used to support it? And, before too many comparisons are made here with other people, it's important to note that Maxwell has not been convicted of anything at all; the

986:

Scott Borgerson- Alleged Husband of Ghislane Maxwell (Jeffrey Epsteins Madame)the 43 year old CEO of CargoMetrics born in 1976, worth $ 102 million, currently resides in Massachusetts. Maxwell in 2016 sold her Manhattan penthouse and moved to Manchester by the Sea, Mass. Borgerson lives currently in

4232:

Of course you could (and still can) study 'modern history with languages' at British 'public' (aka fee paying) schools - for example taking 3 A Levels - French, Italian, Modern History - as many people do. There's no specific A Level course called 'Modern History with Languages'. I think people are

4011:

if my statement that it is best to stick closely to the sources came off as advice directed to you, specifically, as it was intended more generally and as much a mea culpa that my own edit did not stick closely to the BBC source, which seems to be the best quality option out there for now, although

3609:

It's not similar to Hitler, because he was briefly an unsuccessful painter before becoming very successful in politics. Maxwell was a successful socialite for many years; it was her main occupation for most of her adult life. I guess you're saying that she wouldn't be notable as a socialite had she

2933:

Knowledge includes nationality in the first sentence. Maxwell is the daughter of a Briton and was raised and educated in the UK and spent the first 30 years of her 60-year life there. She does also now have U.S. and French citizenship, so I will add that to the intro, but not to the first sentence.

2910:

As the article indicates Maxwell has lived longer in the USA as a socialite than in the UK, as she is American, British and French, and as the term is not being used to indicate historic British ancestry, I was surprised by her being described as a "British socialite" in the first sentence and as a

2017:

It's amazing what inconsequential trivialities people will incessantly argue about. In my opinion, for which I'm aware none of you give a flying fig--no need to remind me--, the term "socialite" is perfectly meaningless all on its own, and it makes no difference whatsoever whether or not "former",

1149:

Sorry, I misunderstood the issue earlier. What you are saying may or may not be correct, but unfortunately it would be difficult to do anything without explaining WHERE you think the article contains inaccuracies, or words like "allegedly" ought to be inserted. Actually I have at times copyedited

573:. Is there any reason for this to be under this section? Unless these individual lawsuits gain some sort of notability we should lump them under some type of lawsuits section. I would guess she will be subject of many more lawsuits, as many victims will seek compensation, and this will run afoul of 3328:

Asides: FWIW, I actually quite like the current (as brief as it may remain) version of the lead setence (if it isn't verbatim how I'd put it). Also, in my personal opinion (not explicitly backed up by sources I've read) her criminality and her status as a socialite are intimately intertwined. And,

2982:

That's how Knowledge works; that is its common practice. What the subject personally wants is irrelevant; what reliable sources say is what counts. George Washington was born in, and lived his entire life in, America. Maxwell was born in France to a British father and French mother, and was raised

359:

The subject being under criminal investigation in the US Virgin Islands is a significant event that was already stated in the article's section immediately above where this line was recently moved. Restored to lede as it needs expansion in the body, rather than deletion in the lede. Kind Regards,

228:

Article says, "Maxwell has also been associated and photographed with Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, and lawyer Alan Dershowitz, all of whom have been accused of sexual misconduct.". Does this sentence belong in an encyclopedia article on Maxwell? Are they defamatory

2565:

Yes, I was listening to the main BBC news yesterday, and she was clearly described as a socialite. Personally, I can see how this description, with her in solitary within the notoriously caring US penal system, makes no sense. But then, depending on the outcome of the trial, was she ever just a

114:

Perhaps the style of English could be changed from British to American if editors have strong opinions about it. It seems that when it came up before, there was some support for that. Aa I see it, a consistent use of either British English or American English (dates, spelling) will do, no strong

708:

Sorry about bad formatting Ive never tried to edit anything on Knowledge. But he was seen walking her dog in a house that was bought recently an hour away. Multiple people have come forward and said that yes, they were married, yet the documentation has disappeared. Can someone here write a full

84:

Maybe this has been covered before, maybe there is consensus here, maybe Im entering a minefield. The article and edits seem to shift back and forth between the English and American dialects of English. We should commit to one or the other. It's a tough call on this article. The subjects Father,

3504:

The sources make a number of references, commonly teenage girls but specifically mentioning girls as young as 14. That is certainly not pre-puberty. I find the word "minor" used multiple times. While I found a reference to "child" used twice, it was in connection to issues other than these five

2410:

For the former socialite and the women... The British socialite and daughter of the late... only implicated the socialite after Epstein’s death... Maxwell continued living the life of a socialite in New York... and that the socialite groomed her to engage... at a time when prosecutors said the

1894:

is notable as an R & B musician . . . but he is also jailed and (at this point) has been CONVICTED of multiple sex crimes. Does he too cease to be known as a musician? R.Kelly is a “former musician” . . . Or does he remain known as a musician that was also convicted of multiple sex crimes?

3554:

use (and as an aside, I felt "per sources" was a little overstating and terse). As I said in my revert, the sources barely support either "minor" or "child", so we need to discuss other phrasing (but I'm happy to leave it as "minor" for now, which should be maybe wikilinked as it isn't widely

1902:

For less contentious examples . . . imagine the complication if all Knowledge biographies needed to be updated by editors based on if one was “currently” practicing the things that made them notable. Does Robin Williams get described as a former actor after suffering from Parkinson’s? Does a

1430:

The article isn’t locked for editing, and can be edited by registered account holders. Given the current circumstances and pending court case it is very sensible that the article isn’t open to editing from anonymous IP addresses; you simply need to register an account so that there is some

1064:

I am stumped as to why an editor thinks that 5 1/2 month-old information is better than current information and characterizes an update as "overcategorization?" Federal and other prisoners are frequently moved from one place of confinement to another, for medical, prosecutorial, protection,

258:

It is an odd sentence that was modified at some point to included the fact that these individuals have a shared history. As countless RS had reported on her very public friendships/associations with Clinton, Trump, and Prince Andrew, a mention was DUE and warranted. However, it was not my

4058:

I'm not sure what the modern language options were in 1982, but Balliol now says: "In Modern Languages (that is, French, Italian, German, Spanish)... " So that might be five. Likely A-levels might have been History, French and Spanish. But I don't know what Marlborough offered.

2614:

that "socialite" is not a professional title, but rather a descriptor of one's social activity. And since that social activity is clearly not present anymore in her life, we can't describe her as a socialite. There are plenty of sources describing her as a "former socialite".

1791:

just because you given multiple reliable sources to back up the "former socialite" characterization on this talk page doesn't mean you can just add "former" to the article while keeping the original cite that does not use the word "former"; you need to give at least one cite

987:

Bedford, RI where he was seen walking Ghislanes prized bred vizsla dog. There is much speculation as to why there are no documents of them married. Is the Epstein network so powerful it could control databases? How far do their influence and malicious resources extend?

298:

to her association with Epstein and that her father was a major public figure in the international cultural landscape during his lifetime. A brief mention of this belongs in the lede, in addition to being summarized in the article body. To omit this is an instance of

685:. Currently, the article says: "At the time of her arraignment, federal prosecutors stated that Maxwell was married; she did not disclose the identity of her spouse (or their respective finances).". If you still disagree, then you can always put in an edit request ( 635:

Please, pay attention to the date of the references! This week it it has been reported that a $ 30m bail package has been prepared to get Maxwell free before Christmas. Some $ 25m will come from Borgerson, the other $ 5m from Maxwell's siblings Kevin und Ian. Read:

3718:

This discussion has strayed unhelpfully. The fact is that reputable media sources continue to describe her as a socialite or former socialite (making evident that she never did anything of value). WP follows the RS and that should be the end of the discussion.

317:. I think we agree that, in both cases, the lede can be improved. As to what needs modification in the Maxwell article's lede we are seeing it differently. For a reader with limited time or patience, the lede needs to summarize the key aspect of the article. 3816:

I certainly don't. That was another assumption. I don't know what the usual entry qualification requirements were for Balliol in 1982, although they don't always require a given number of A-levels, or grades. No-one's going to suggest that Balliol had a

3320:

implies we should include all the subject's notable positions and societal rôles in the lead sentence. We had an article on her being a socialite before any criminal allegations, and no one disputed this article under notability criteria. Crucially,

155:

Yes, it would be difficult to sustain a national ties argument for American when the third word in the article after her name tags her as British. Indeed on that basis the reverse would be the stronger case, but here it’s a simple case of RETAIN.

1886:

Acousmana and The Anome, I earlier argued this same point, that since Maxwell is not currently a socialite she should be described as a former socialite, and after I was reverted & following further discussion, I came to see it differently.

3628:

implies we should include all the subject's notable positions and societal rôles in the lead sentence and no one disputed her notability as a socialite and this article's existence prior to the criminal allegations against her. Crucially, most

1407:

I was going to add a bibliographic reference to this new book, but this article appears to be locked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation so people are able to contribute to this article and improve our project's content.

2199:- I have no real preference one way or another, but after looking at sources, it's clear the weight is still on "socialite" rather than "former socialite." I did a google news search for "Ghislaine Maxwell" and the first results were: 786:→ Quote: "Financial records show Ms Maxwell transferred vast sums to Mr Borgerson after they married in 2016, which experts say could have been designed to protect her financially from any claims lodged by alleged victims of Epstein." 1907:) cease being that after she’s not appeared in a major advertising campaign for a few years? Does a celebrated soccer player or golfer get described as a former athlete after leaving the sport following an injury or retiring (see 662:

is dated December 10, 2020, and says "alleged husband," since there's nothing official about the identity of her spouse yet per all the links I'd given. And your sentence, again, emphasis mine: "The forthcoming bail application,

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I'm not saying that A-Levels should be included in the ibox, but they should be in Early life. We still don't appear to have a source which says she passed her A-Levels, even though she must have in order to study at Oxford.

3313:

by the conviction, Maxwell literally was a socialite "FIRST" (hence "former") "and then a" convicted sex trafficker (as of a day ago; also, she was a socialite before she moved to the U.S., met Epstein or began her criminal

3906:

Unless RS cover the number of A-levels (and any discrepancies) as relevant, Knowledge sticks to what the RS state. RS state that Maxwell studied modern history with languages. Adding anything more is original research.

2952:

just my two cents but why choose her nationality of birth and not the nationality she chose and where shes lived the last 30 years? George Washington lived longer as British than American but we never call him British

2509:

My statement was not intended to be dependent on it being a career. That was intended as an analogy covering making statement in Knowledge that says any role prized by the individual is ended due to recent inactivity.

1339:

It's already mentioned that they lived together in a house in Manchester-by-the-Sea, again in the Personal Life Section - do we feel it's important whether or not they co-owned the property? Happy to include it if so.

3935:(Edit conflict) On closer reading, I see now that the BBC does not differentiate where, i.e., at which school, she studied modern history with languages. Best to be very cautious and stick closely to the sources. 309:

of the article; by removing them from the lede and inserting them into the article body, this creates redundant passages of similar text, as the lede's text was a simplification of what was covered in the article

3523:

I'm open to the possibility there may be a better term than "minor", but "child" is absolutely wrong is it is not mentioned in the sources and doesn't make any sense given the definition. I'm restoring my edit.

1851:

we can drop a cite bomb on it if you like, which is utterly pointless, but sure, if that's what you want - fact is she's in prison, hasn't been a "socialite" is years, it's not a professional title, it's bollox.

1134:

This article contains numerous inaccuracies and defamation that could jeopardise the ongoing legal case. Many accusations are also misrepresented as facts, with the words 'alleged' and 'allegedly' being absent.

3582:

This is like describing Hitler as a "former Austrian painter". It is a distortion of what makes her notable as the subject for a Knowledge article. Her socialite career is documented in the rest of the article.

3489:

I recently made a straightforward edit to the lead, changing the incorrect term "child" to a better term "minor". While it hardly needed explanation, I did explain in and edit summary that it was "per sources".

3783:". but that doesn't sound right, as she would have done just 3 separate A-levels at Marlborough. It sounds like an undergraduate course (although it was me who added the upper case for that reason). Thanks. 4146:

In line with the infobox where, for graduates, all entries in the "education" field get superseded by the "alma mater" field, A-levels might be seen as "relatively trivial". But, as I did note above, the

2465:

not a professional title, it's a high-society pastime - or role - one that requires active participation, not being prominent or involved in said society would seem to disqualify one from being called a

3073:

I'm 65 yrs old. I'd heard of her thirty years before this nasty stuff in relation to nasty stuff surrounding her father. I dont care about the ifnobox as long as coverage already exists in the article.

2423:

The British socialite is the daughter of late media mogul Robert Maxwell... Maxwell, a well-connected British socialite... An Oxford-educated socialite, she has been... The former socialite worked with

2284:

This trend continued as I looked through more sources that I didn't feel like transcribing into wikitext. This makes it pretty clear to me that the weight of sources still refer to her as a socialite.

3444:. This parameter is a more concise alternative to (not addition to) |education=, and will often consist of the linked name of the last-attended institution of higher education (not secondary schools)" 1911:)? No. Notability generally doesn’t work that way. We continue to describe them as an actor, model, athlete. . . and for convicted criminal such as R. Kelly, we add the modifications of that fact. 2983:

and educated in the UK and spent the first 30 years of her 60-year life there. That's why Knowledge lists British as the primary of her three nationalities, as do most reliable independent sources.

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partner If particularly relevant, or if the partner is notable; "partner" here means unmarried life partners in a domestic partnership (of any gender or sexual orientation), not business partner.

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I suggest that would be less clear, for the reasons I have already set out above. There is no reason why A-levels should be excluded, although I agree some might see mention of them as trivial.

444:

so how about "The organisation announced cessation of operations on 12 July 2019, a week after the sex trafficking charges brought by New York federal prosecutors against Epstein became public."

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Fair enough. Put one of the sources in the article then. To me, if someone is described as a socialite that is always part of who they are but not everyone sees it that way. Fair enough.

3273:

To put ‘former socialite’ first, is lessening her crimes (crimes of which she has been found guilty) and more importantly diminishes the plight and feelings of her many, many victims.

3949:

It shouldn't be worded that way. It makes it sound like 1 subject, when it would have been 2. Also, it's unlikely that 2 A-Levels would have been sufficient to gain a place at Oxford.

3013:

criminal_charges criminal_penalty criminal_status For convicted criminals only. Please be certain to support these parameters with citations from reliable sources, in the article body.

3505:

counts, which means the sources refer to "minor" never refer to "child" (with the caveat that the WSJ article is paywalled and I can only read the headline in the opening paragraph.

1996:

I've removed your comment above: the presumption of innocence applies to Ghislaine Maxwell, as it applies to anyone else. Please read the notice at the top of this talk page. --

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Ah, thanks for the advice. As far as I know, in 1982, there were no "schools" in the UK where one could have studied "modern history with languages". I guess you have read the

1810:

I still think "former" is a bit POV. Obviously she can't do much socialising at the moment, but this assumes that she will be found guilty, she could be free in a few months.

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The first sentence generally follows a subject's life chronology. We generally credit readers with being able to read and comprehend a whole sentence, even one with 25 words.

141:. Thanks for your pointer. While, yeah, I would side with those who argued American, I don't see a strong argument to switch. I'm glad it's been covered before. Thanks again. 4073:

Neither of the easily verifiable existing sources say anything about A-levels. They say she attended a school or schools. They also state what she studied. Oxford Mail:

3047:

FWIW, I do now support this, even though that infobox (per template doc) should only be used for someone convicted of a serious crime who is also principally notable (per

2427:

Some of the sources are paywalled, but even without access I can see at least a third use "socialite" more than "former socialite" and one uses a single instance of each.

1796:

to one or more of the cites that supports the new usage. Since you were kind enough to dig out the cites, I've put a couple into the article to support the statement. --

1007: 720: 3514:"child" used twice, but in different contexts. A reference to a child sex case, but that's a different case, as a reference to Mazwell as a "child of a media mogul: 2704: 793:→ Quote: "As the financial report discussed later in this submission makes clear, $ 22.5 million represents all of the current assets of Ms. Maxwell and her spouse." 4007:

Many readers (and editors) are unfamiliar with the specific ways in which higher education is structured within the UK vs. the USA vs. Australia, etc.. My apologies

436:"The organisation announced closure on 12 July 2019, a week after the sex trafficking charges brought by New York federal prosecutors against Epstein became public." 3666:...German politician who was the dictator of Germany from 1933 until his death in 1945. ...leader of the Nazi Party...chancellor...and...Führer und Reichskanzler... 577:. 'Jane Doe sues Epstein estate and Maxwell for molestation in where they molested Jane Doe' is a pretty boring list. Maybe we can start summarizing this? Thanks! 474: 423: 3206:

Yes, that's very true. Might be even more relevant for that. Although it's still very unclear when it might happen. Up next is the Prince Andrew Show, I believe.

3270:

It should read that she is a convicted sex offender/ trafficker FIRST and then former socialite. She has been convicted in a court of law. This is what she is.

3167: 1608:

on the contrary, the burden of proof lies on you. The cited source says "socialite", not "former socialite". If you want to write the latter, you will need a

4175:

Indeed, it does mention A-levels farther down in the Oxford Mail article, a source used for quite a bit of existing info about her early life and education.

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Attorneys for Ghislaine Maxwell: MEMORANDUM OF GHISLAINE MAXWELL IN SUPPORT OF HER RENEWED MOTION FOR BAIL. 15. Dezember 2020, S. 11 (courthousenews.com ).

88:

I think the more recent events in the Subjects encyclopedic life point towards American English. Then again, thats what I use daily, and maybe this is POV.

3839:

just says: "After her A-Levels at Marlborough, she joined her father’s Pergamon Press at Headington, “doing anything from typing to managing congresses”."

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I'm slightly reluctant to create an article which would immediately raise BLP and other problems, but I have created a redirect from him to this article.

3653:, I actually think the analogy (albeit clearly an imperfect fit) proves why we need to include "former socialite". The opening and second sentences of 3987:

that says "... she revealed that she had started a United supporters’ club at Balliol College, where she was studying modern history with languages"?

2530:

appears equally valid, and to my mind, more accurate - and more informative insofar as it is tied to her languishing in a penitentiary for 16 months.

2310: 1637: 2365: 2354: 1692: 1681: 3461:" for multiple unis, and whilst my understanding has always been that "alma mater" only refers to higher education, as the template doc implies, 2911:"New York socialite" in the Career section instead of simply as a "socialite," and the choice seems to disregard her being American and French. 2633:

You seem to be missing the point that it doesn’t matter what individual WP editors think or what WP:OR they have done; WP always follows the RS.

2223: 597: 2698: 2231: 2695: 2215: 1079:"People charged with sex crimes" is an overcategory of "People charged with sex trafficking", but I won't get into a huge dispute about this. 1392: 2321: 1648: 1416: 645: 601: 3921:

I agree we don't know how many A-levels she studied or passed. But you think she studied "modern history with languages" at Marlborough??

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opens with "Former British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell, 60, has been found guilty of..."; other top Google News UK result for her atm:

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report the identity of her spouse (if it is revealed) so we can conclusively state who the spouse is in the article, since this is a

3818: 3598: 995: 637: 4089:. I don't think that it is waranted to mention A-levels and wikilink it as it is not mentioned in RS. A third article sourced to 3539: 716: 71: 59: 2718:) both of which later describe her as a socialite. That’s good enough for me. Definitely not enough to change this to “former”. 3876:

It's still inadequate. We don't know which languages she studied, what grades she gained or which year she started university.

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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

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It seems the safest course, until there is higher qualtiy in depth coverage of Maxwell, would be to simple restate that "she

3657:

don't mention WWII nor the Holocaust. They establish rôles he held that allowed him to commit such atrocities (arguably, if

313:

It seems the root question is "What belongs in the lede?" Which is a similar question we are discussing at the neighboring

3558:

From what I have seen "teenage girls" might be most apt per RS, but I'll read even more MSM articles and try to do a tally.

3511:(Paywalled, so I don't see the entire article) Source 3 "teenage girls" as young as 14 so not a child per Merriam Webster 3371: 449:

Is that reasonable.? I agree the phrase you highlight is clumsy/awkward, and tbh, I'm not certain about your suggestions. -

4296:

There's no indication from the article that she has a political affiliation. If a RS says that she does, it can be added.

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I've added Borgeson's name to the infobox. Their marriage, and the reveal of their marriage, is already discussed in the

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I would err on the side of caution about removing the sub judice template, there is also her pending trial for perjury.

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Our numbers agree (a very good summary BTW), and I merely reverted to encourage talk page discussion on what term most

2343: 1670: 1000: 2710: 4075:"she had started a United supporters’ club at Balliol College, where she was studying modern history with languages." 1926:

Maybe if she is convicted can change her title. But as of now she is still a socialite facing trial and unconvicted.

2078: 1552:"former British socialite" sounds like she's dead. Also that's not what is supported by any new reliable sources. - 790: 783: 4132:

A-Levels aren't trivial, but we shouldn't mention them in the article if RS don't mention her taking/passing them.

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for trial of British socialite on sex trafficking ... the former British socialite appeared notably at ease during

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Maxwell attended Marlborough College and Balliol College, Oxford, where she studied modern history with languages

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A quick google test of “Ghislaine Maxwell” and socialite in very recent news articles gave me 7 as “socialite” (

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socialite? Nevertheless, WP must follow the RS and, for the time being, the RS have settled on ‘socialite’. So

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She was educated at Marlborough College and Oxford University, where she studied modern history and languages.

1136: 649: 605: 3771:(1988), via the Google snippet-view online, so I don't know if it's given there. The article currently says " 2647:

You seem to be missing the point that it doesn’t matter what you think, RS's use "former"; WP always follows

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where prosecutors filed two new charges in their sex crimes case against British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell.

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/10/ghislaine-maxwell-pledges-30-million-bail-attempt-secure-freedom/

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If one is jailed or changes careers . . . do they cease to be the things they are known for? For example,

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Seems there is a growing list of subsections for each lawsuit for some reason all listed under the section

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/neighbours-tried-to-force-smug-ghislaine-maxwell-out-of-town-w8np9v39z

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getting pointlessly hung up on what could be no more than a helpful summary of Maxwell's school studies.

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Is it a fact that ".. 'education' should only be used in lieu of 'alma_mater', not alongside.. " as per

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Organisations don't exactly "close" very often. Could "closure" become "its end" or "its dissolution"?

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In Llew Mawr Reverted on the basis that the change wasn't supported by the sources. In fact, it is.

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please stop these extreme personal attacks on other editors. Any further rants are likely to get you

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https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18624525.jeffrey-epstein-ghislaine-maxwell-oxford-united-director/

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you have removed the word "former", but the two sources following still say "former socialite". --

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per the reference above and the fact that I am guessing she is not socializing much these days.

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-maxwells-scandal-conspiracy-and-more-than-a-few-days-in-court/

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Please add to the info-box/ to the "Relatives" her "spouse" Scott Borgerson (married in 2016).

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is a mess on this article, looks like everyone is trying to jam content into it. Needs cleanup.

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What was the subject of her degree (and what class did she get)? I am unable to see p434 of

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65 years? That's what Ghislaine stands to get. Trust you'll soon be enjoying a well-earned

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If you'd paid attention to the date of the second link I provided, you would see that the

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Starting with common usage of terms, per Merriam-Webster the word "child" is defined as:

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template get removed? Perhaps it's less important now that the jury has played its part.

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That's my point - it's 2 separate subjects, so we shouldn't word it as though it's one.

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about her conviction call her a socialite, ex-socialite or former socialite (e.g. The

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This may point in the direction that he is her husband, but does not quite confirm it.

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where she studied Modern History with Languages before going on to earn a degree from

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letter by her lawyer, the British socialite's defence will say her accusers might have

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With the relevant cites provided, using "former socialite" seems reasonable to me. --

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https://www.amazon.com/Ghislaine-Maxwell-Unauthorized-Biography-Shocking/dp/B098GY43F2

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/style/who-is-scott-borgerson-ghislaine-maxwell.html

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https://www.the-sun.com/news/117528/who-ghislaine-maxwell-boyfriend-scott-borgerson/

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where the indictments are, etc. all play a role, and point in different directions.

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Ok, I have looked into this further, I think there are enough sources to say this.

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I'd like to support this excellent summary of the how we should look at this BLP. -

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I'd suggest it strayed to start with. She might have "done something of value" at

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using the date range 10 Aug 2019 – 23 Nov 2021 as a guide, "former" appears to be

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and lived there for years before she went into hiding after Epstein's arrest." --

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the article, making sure that the more contentious sections are clearly sourced.

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https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/maxwell-bail-letter.pdf

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https://news.yahoo.com/ghislaine-maxwell-process-divorcing-husband-230939327.html

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Who the people are who are "cleansing" the Ghislaine Maxwell article - explained

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got their first glimpse of Ghislaine Maxwell, the British socialite charged with

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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It checks out well with the existing sources and has added content. Good find.

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I don't think there's anything definitive yet about him being the husband. See

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minkeepthreads=4 (will not archive if there are 4 or fewer threads on the page)

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that a slightly different way (and I still think the upper case is required).

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Clearly, I havn't been paying attention chaps. No harm, no pack drill, what? -

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As Maxwell has been convicted, I have added criminal details to the infobox.

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minarchthreads=4 (requires at least 4 old threads to make a new archive page)

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age=2160 (only sections with no replies in the last 90 days will be archived)

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Epstein Scapegoat or Sexual Abuser: The Trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. For the

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Epstein Scapegoat or Sexual Abuser: The Trial of Ghislaine Maxwell. For the

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This article provides a list of schools Maxwell went to. Should we include:

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With no reply to the question and no replys from others, there is a lack of

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not become involved with Jeffrey Epstein, and you may be right about that.

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The British media is reporting that an appeal (attempt) is almost certain.

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as there is no prospect of an appeal? Or should we wait until sentencing?

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Despite the template at the top of this page, presumably this is no longer

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accusing Maxwell of defamation when the British socialite called her a liar

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the first public acknowledgement from Maxwell that she is, in fact, married

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Well, as a Brit, I, of course, prefer to this place as more emblematic of

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Posted: Nov 16, 2021 / 10:23 AM CST / Updated: Nov 16, 2021 / 10:23 AM CST

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victims and the former socialite... The British socialite and daughter of

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to be in front of U.S. District Judge Alison Nathan in the coming days,

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since I'm not a body of water, I think you'd find damming me difficult.

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The family of British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell has filed a complaint

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Interesting that Knowledge forgot to list Maxwell's political party.

898:/ to the "Relatives" → "spouse Scott Borgerson (married in 2016)" -- 596:

Ghislaine Maxwell is married to tech entrepreneur Scott Borgerson →

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Yes, this sentence contains too many BLP issues, I have deleted it.

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both say it can apply equally to schooling, so the plot thickens.)

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I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about "former";

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Only then does it explicate (reiterating again his societal rôle,

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My review of sources: Source 2 "minor" in subhead minor in text

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Organisation should be spelled organization, this is America baby

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The 59-year-old British socialite could spend the rest of her life

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maxarchsize=50000 (will create a new archive at about 50000 bytes)

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I'm not certain about it either. I think your words are better.

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the ref says "sad to announce that it will cease all operations."

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Ghislaine Maxwell is no longer a socialite - she is now an inmate

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about her conviction (e.g. BBC) refer to "the former socialite".

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Typo on Maxwell's name, one instance of Maxell's. Missing a w.

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Please add: "Maxwell and Borgerson bought a house together in

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You would like to see the following sentence changed from ...

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says "After her A-Levels at Marlborough..." and I assume the

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Criminal charges, criminal penalty and partner in the infobox

2444:(invited by the bot) It's well established that she was/is a 4104:

MC and BC where she studied modern history and languages."

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I agree. But I will try and adjust to how I understand it.

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Scott Borgerson wiki? you guys rock keep up the good work

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on if the article should contain this information twice.

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is a fundamental principle that applies to everyone. --

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Ghislaine_Maxwell#Affidavit_filed_by_Maria_Farmer_(2019)

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OK, I'll do it to my suggestion. Thanks for replying. -

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a young person especially between infancy and puberty

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yet tried and convicted for approximately one year.

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Seeing no objection, I am now creating the archive.

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The Oxford-educated socialite, wearing a black suit

1529:Amend intro to "... is a former British socialite" 3676:During his dictatorship, he initiated World War II 2526:any such statement would reflect what RS's offer, 1629:more accurate, per multiple recent usable sources: 415:"organisation announced closure on 12 July 2019" 115:preference for one over the other. Kind Regards, 2809:blocked from editing without any further warning 3230:Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2021 2827:Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2021 2033:Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2021 941:Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2020 689:) since the article is locked from IP editing. 514:would set it up with the following parameters: 3170:. What also seems possible is a retrospective 1489:Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2021 1060:Confinement location and autonomous reverting 644:, the person said." Why is that a "secret"?-- 375:Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2020 8: 3743:? Depends what we mean by "value", I guess. 1094:Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2021 674:from Maxwell that she is, in fact, married." 4081:. It is worth noting that one sources uses 3661:, Maxwell's rôle also enabled the crimes): 3309:here. Whilst it may have been overtaken in 1825:Whatever we go with, it should be sourced. 1706:and that's just page one of search results. 1193:Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2021 305:Other aspects of the lede you modified are 2954: 2912: 2203: 2114:RFC socialite descriptor: active/inactive 3517:Source 3 "teenage girls" "teenagers" 2206: 1385: 509:Talk page is too long, time to archive? 4094: 4078: 4074: 3772: 3439: 3278:2A02:C7F:F0B4:E200:B993:C24B:5685:25DA 3016: 3012: 3011:again, per the infobox documentation. 2961:2600:8801:3028:4C00:956B:4F6:E39A:298D 2422: 2416: 2409: 2315:, facing trial this month in the US... 2274: 2266: 2258: 2250: 2242: 2234: 2226: 2218: 1642:, facing trial this month in the US... 1004:2600:4040:126D:1500:D5A:2642:55CC:4C07 717:2600:4040:126d:1500:d5a:2642:55cc:4c07 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 471:2601:5C6:8081:35C0:C505:548F:CCD:B5F9 420:2601:5C6:8081:35C0:C505:548F:CCD:B5F9 302:. The prior notability still exists. 7: 3963:Um, "modern history with languages" 530:format= %%i (default archive format) 4282:Oh, is she a big supporter of one? 4026:No worries. Thanks for explaining. 3704:is really quite good, you know.... 3178:which she has a year to instigate. 2890:Use British English|date=July 2020 2370:worked with Epstein to "recruit... 1697:worked with Epstein to "recruit... 24: 2224:Published Nov. 22, 2021 7:25PM ET 2073:change imprisonned to imprisoned 3237: 3007:I have removed the additions by 2882: 2834: 2089: 2040: 1544: 1496: 1354: 1331: 1279: 1248: 1200: 1165: 1101: 948: 913: 861: 743: 382: 175:If it ain't broke don't fix it. 29: 3520:"minor" No mention of "child" 2470:. It's more informative to use 2411:British socialite knew the girl 1431:accountability for your edits. 677:We can wait until then so more 1272:House in Manchester-by-the-Sea 355:Criminal investigation in USVI 1: 4214:18:26, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4200:18:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4185:17:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4171:17:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4142:17:22, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4128:15:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4114:15:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4093:, also quite recent, states: 4069:15:08, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4054:15:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4036:15:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 4022:15:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3997:14:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3977:14:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3959:14:51, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3945:14:41, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3931:14:26, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3917:14:18, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3900:14:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3886:14:03, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3872:13:55, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3849:13:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3831:13:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3812:12:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3793:12:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3753:14:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3729:14:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3714:11:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3691:01:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3620:00:57, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3603:00:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3572:23:30, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3544:20:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3479:23:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3456:22:34, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3433:16:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3407:21:56, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3388:19:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3360:18:26, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3341:18:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3301:15:03, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3286:14:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3216:17:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 3202:18:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3188:12:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3162:10:39, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3144:09:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3130:09:45, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3109:09:58, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3090:07:07, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3069:03:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 3042:23:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC) 3028:22:00, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 2944:07:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 2927:01:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC) 2900:23:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC) 2877:23:02, 28 November 2021 (UTC) 2821:10:47, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 2785:09:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC) 2747:05:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 2728:04:27, 27 November 2021 (UTC) 2678:00:14, 26 November 2021 (UTC) 2643:17:57, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 2625:13:11, 25 November 2021 (UTC) 2579:14:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2557:19:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 2522:14:06, 24 November 2021 (UTC) 2501:15:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2460:14:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2437:14:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2404:14:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2294:13:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2192:12:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2153:12:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC) 2108:21:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 2098:Thanks for spotting this. -- 2083:20:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 2028:23:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC) 2006:14:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC) 1963:10:37, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1936:04:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1921:03:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1879:23:33, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1843:16:21, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1820:14:13, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1806:12:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1773:11:46, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1751:22:25, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1733:20:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1622:18:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1597:18:39, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1582:18:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1326:03:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC) 1256:Done. Thanks for the report. 1089:14:31, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 1075:07:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 1055:04:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC) 1040:13:13, 13 December 2020 (UTC) 1012:08:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC) 908:03:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC) 844:17:54, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 829:17:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 813:16:55, 20 December 2020 (UTC) 699:07:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC) 654:04:40, 12 December 2020 (UTC) 631:05:54, 11 December 2020 (UTC) 610:04:40, 11 December 2020 (UTC) 3372:There Ain't No Sanity Clause 2993:04:05, 2 December 2021 (UTC) 2969:03:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC) 2766:12:23, 3 December 2021 (UTC) 2712:), 1 “defrocked socialite” ( 2208:Examples from recent sources 1562:05:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC) 1539:04:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC) 1483:01:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC) 1468:22:33, 12 October 2021 (UTC) 1019:Knowledge:Requested articles 587:12:51, 30 October 2020 (UTC) 559:16:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC) 544:18:13, 22 October 2020 (UTC) 80:English or American dialects 4306:15:22, 3 January 2022 (UTC) 4292:16:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC) 4277:16:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC) 3276:Rectify this or be dammed! 3264:to reactivate your request. 3252:has been answered. Set the 3166:Yes, the family is already 2861:to reactivate your request. 2849:has been answered. Set the 2359:, whose £12 million bail... 2067:to reactivate your request. 2055:has been answered. Set the 1686:, whose £12 million bail... 1523:to reactivate your request. 1511:has been answered. Set the 1375:22:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC) 1350:07:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC) 1306:to reactivate your request. 1294:has been answered. Set the 1227:to reactivate your request. 1215:has been answered. Set the 1128:to reactivate your request. 1116:has been answered. Set the 975:to reactivate your request. 963:has been answered. Set the 935:07:20, 6 January 2021 (UTC) 888:to reactivate your request. 876:has been answered. Set the 770:to reactivate your request. 758:has been answered. Set the 499:12:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC) 479:12:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC) 465:23:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC) 428:23:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC) 409:to reactivate your request. 397:has been answered. Set the 370:15:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 347:23:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC) 327:07:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 292:20:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC) 212:23:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC) 4322: 3578:"former British socialite" 3346:Well, you know how things 1187:01:12, 18 April 2021 (UTC) 1160:23:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC) 1145:22:40, 17 April 2021 (UTC) 269:22:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC) 254:22:09, 2 August 2020 (UTC) 239:21:56, 2 August 2020 (UTC) 224:NPOV & BLP defamation? 185:14:53, 1 August 2020 (UTC) 166:05:53, 1 August 2020 (UTC) 151:05:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC) 125:04:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC) 98:01:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC) 4243:19:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC) 3649:Since you already proved 3485:Lead - minor versus child 3446:That looks pretty clear. 2715:), 1 “former socialite” ( 2256:Mon 15 Nov 2021 12.28 EST 1441:03:09, 18 July 2021 (UTC) 1425:02:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC) 1266:22:25, 30 June 2021 (UTC) 1243:22:10, 30 June 2021 (UTC) 565:Sections for each lawsuit 534:Thank you for any input. 3700:Vienna State Opera House 2344:Alleged victims and the 1951:presumption of innocence 1671:Alleged victims and the 3819:mystery anonymous donor 3779:Balliol College, Oxford 3421:Template:Infobox person 2306:it's not clear at all: 2240:NOV 16, 2021 AT 8:14 PM 3967:. Nor was it in 1982. 2264:Nov 18, 2021, 11:18 AM 2118:Is Ghislaine Maxwell: 687:Knowledge:Edit request 672:public acknowledgement 670:will also be the first 18:Talk:Ghislaine Maxwell 4012:it is rather recent. 3837:other existing source 3821:that year, are they. 3415:Education in infobox? 3376:Machine Gun Etiquette 3020:ScottishFinnishRadish 2892:ScottishFinnishRadish 2429:ScottishFinnishRadish 2326:argues for release... 2286:ScottishFinnishRadish 1653:argues for release... 1314:Manchester-by-the-Sea 1179:ScottishFinnishRadish 42:of past discussions. 3798:Do we know how many 3741:The TerraMar Project 2348:and media heiress... 2272:Published 8 November 2126:a former socialite? 2075:Xxprojectxxrealityxx 1675:and media heiress... 4085:and the other uses 3999:p.s. they offer it 3775:Marlborough College 3168:launching an appeal 2586:B. former socialite 1612:that says that. -- 1137:JayBeecherVoteWatch 3985:Oxford Mail source 3635:BBC's main article 2758:Royal Autumn Crest 2754:B:former socialite 2408:Bloomberg source, 894:Please add to the 315:Dershowitz article 3965:is not an A-level 3773:Maxwell attended 3678: 3667: 3589:comment added by 3530:comment added by 3268: 3267: 3250:Ghislaine Maxwell 3081: 2971: 2959:comment added by 2929: 2917:comment added by 2865: 2864: 2847:Ghislaine Maxwell 2302: 2281: 2280: 2232:November 23, 2021 2071: 2070: 2053:Ghislaine Maxwell 1527: 1526: 1509:Ghislaine Maxwell 1310: 1309: 1292:Ghislaine Maxwell 1231: 1230: 1213:Ghislaine Maxwell 1132: 1131: 1114:Ghislaine Maxwell 1038: 979: 978: 961:Ghislaine Maxwell 892: 891: 874:Ghislaine Maxwell 799:comment added by 774: 773: 756:Ghislaine Maxwell 715:comment added by 490: 489:the inedible dog 456: 455:the inedible dog 413: 412: 395:Ghislaine Maxwell 338: 337:the inedible dog 203: 202:the inedible dog 77: 76: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4313: 4263:Political party? 3674: 3665: 3631:reliable sources 3624:As I say above, 3605: 3546: 3404: 3399: 3390: 3362: 3350:at Knowledge... 3323:reliable sources 3259: 3255: 3241: 3240: 3234: 3111: 3079: 2886: 2885: 2856: 2852: 2838: 2837: 2831: 2806: 2368:former socialite 2357:former socialite 2346:former socialite 2335:former socialite 2324:former socialite 2313:former socialite 2296: 2204: 2122:a socialite; or 2097: 2093: 2092: 2062: 2058: 2044: 2043: 2037: 1995: 1903:Supermodel (see 1832: 1790: 1695:former socialite 1684:former socialite 1673:former socialite 1662:former socialite 1651:former socialite 1640:former socialite 1607: 1548: 1547: 1518: 1514: 1500: 1499: 1493: 1395: 1390: 1370: 1358: 1357: 1335: 1334: 1301: 1297: 1283: 1282: 1276: 1255: 1252: 1251: 1222: 1218: 1204: 1203: 1197: 1177:if appropriate. 1169: 1168: 1123: 1119: 1105: 1104: 1098: 1032: 1025: 970: 966: 952: 951: 945: 917: 916: 883: 879: 865: 864: 858: 855: 815: 765: 761: 747: 746: 740: 737: 728: 679:reliable sources 488: 454: 404: 400: 386: 385: 379: 336: 201: 140: 110: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4321: 4320: 4316: 4315: 4314: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4265: 4091:The Independent 3765: 3584: 3580: 3525: 3487: 3463:wikt:alma mater 3417: 3402: 3397: 3365: 3345: 3257: 3253: 3238: 3232: 3094: 3005: 2908: 2883: 2854: 2850: 2835: 2829: 2800: 2793: 2588:- I agree with 2299:Summoned by bot 2282: 2209: 2165:by RS sources. 2116: 2090: 2088: 2060: 2056: 2041: 2035: 1989: 1826: 1784: 1601: 1570: 1545: 1516: 1512: 1497: 1491: 1449: 1405: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1391: 1387: 1368: 1355: 1332: 1299: 1295: 1280: 1274: 1253: 1249: 1220: 1216: 1201: 1195: 1175:reliable source 1166: 1121: 1117: 1102: 1096: 1062: 1023: 968: 964: 949: 943: 914: 881: 877: 862: 849: 794: 763: 759: 744: 731: 710: 594: 567: 511: 402: 398: 383: 377: 357: 276: 226: 134: 104: 82: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4319: 4317: 4309: 4308: 4294: 4284:Martinevans123 4264: 4261: 4260: 4259: 4258: 4257: 4256: 4255: 4254: 4253: 4252: 4251: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4247: 4246: 4245: 4230: 4229: 4228: 4227: 4226: 4225: 4224: 4223: 4222: 4221: 4220: 4219: 4218: 4217: 4216: 4206:Martinevans123 4187: 4163:Martinevans123 4120:Martinevans123 4061:Martinevans123 4042: 4041: 4040: 4039: 4038: 4028:Martinevans123 4009:Martinevans123 3989:Martinevans123 3981: 3980: 3979: 3969:Martinevans123 3923:Martinevans123 3904: 3903: 3902: 3892:Martinevans123 3864:Martinevans123 3857:has now added 3841:Martinevans123 3833: 3823:Martinevans123 3785:Martinevans123 3764: 3761: 3760: 3759: 3758: 3757: 3756: 3755: 3745:Martinevans123 3706:Martinevans123 3694: 3693: 3680: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3647: 3622: 3579: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3561: 3559: 3556: 3502: 3501: 3486: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3458: 3448:Martinevans123 3425:Martinevans123 3416: 3413: 3412: 3411: 3410: 3409: 3393: 3392: 3391: 3352:Martinevans123 3330: 3326: 3315: 3307:Martinevans123 3303: 3293:Martinevans123 3266: 3265: 3242: 3231: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3224: 3223: 3222: 3221: 3220: 3219: 3218: 3208:Martinevans123 3190: 3180:Martinevans123 3164: 3154:Martinevans123 3148:When does the 3122:Martinevans123 3114: 3113: 3112: 3101:Martinevans123 3004: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2997: 2996: 2995: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2947: 2946: 2907: 2904: 2903: 2902: 2863: 2862: 2839: 2828: 2825: 2824: 2823: 2803:Betathetapi545 2792: 2789: 2788: 2787: 2769: 2768: 2750: 2749: 2731: 2730: 2720:Vladimir.copic 2685: 2684: 2683: 2682: 2681: 2680: 2628: 2627: 2582: 2581: 2563: 2562: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2504: 2503: 2442: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2425: 2419: 2413: 2377:hence the RFC 2375: 2374: 2373: 2362: 2351: 2340: 2329: 2318: 2279: 2278: 2211: 2210: 2207: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2194: 2115: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2069: 2068: 2045: 2034: 2031: 2015: 2014: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 1980: 1979: 1978: 1977: 1976: 1975: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1939: 1938: 1905:Cindy Crawford 1884: 1883: 1882: 1881: 1846: 1845: 1794:in the article 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1754: 1753: 1739: 1738: 1737: 1736: 1735: 1701: 1700: 1689: 1678: 1667: 1656: 1645: 1633: 1632: 1631: 1630: 1604:Betathetapi545 1574:Betathetapi545 1569: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1525: 1524: 1501: 1490: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1448: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1417:173.88.246.138 1404: 1401: 1397: 1396: 1384: 1383: 1379: 1378: 1377: 1352: 1308: 1307: 1284: 1273: 1270: 1269: 1268: 1229: 1228: 1205: 1194: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1130: 1129: 1106: 1095: 1092: 1061: 1058: 1043: 1042: 985: 977: 976: 953: 942: 939: 938: 937: 890: 889: 866: 847: 846: 817: 816: 787: 772: 771: 748: 706: 705: 704: 703: 702: 701: 675: 646:93.211.215.204 602:87.170.198.101 593: 590: 566: 563: 562: 561: 532: 531: 528: 525: 522: 519: 510: 507: 506: 505: 504: 503: 502: 501: 447: 446: 445: 439: 438: 437: 411: 410: 387: 376: 373: 356: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 311: 307:summarizations 303: 275: 272: 225: 222: 221: 220: 219: 218: 217: 216: 215: 214: 173: 172: 171: 170: 169: 168: 128: 127: 112: 81: 78: 75: 74: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4318: 4307: 4303: 4299: 4295: 4293: 4289: 4285: 4281: 4280: 4279: 4278: 4274: 4270: 4262: 4244: 4240: 4236: 4231: 4215: 4211: 4207: 4203: 4202: 4201: 4197: 4193: 4188: 4186: 4182: 4178: 4174: 4173: 4172: 4168: 4164: 4160: 4156: 4152: 4151: 4145: 4144: 4143: 4139: 4135: 4131: 4130: 4129: 4125: 4121: 4117: 4116: 4115: 4111: 4107: 4103: 4099: 4096: 4092: 4088: 4084: 4080: 4076: 4072: 4071: 4070: 4066: 4062: 4057: 4056: 4055: 4051: 4047: 4043: 4037: 4033: 4029: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4019: 4015: 4010: 4006: 4005: 4004: 4003: 4002: 3998: 3994: 3990: 3986: 3982: 3978: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3962: 3961: 3960: 3956: 3952: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3942: 3938: 3934: 3933: 3932: 3928: 3924: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3914: 3910: 3905: 3901: 3897: 3893: 3889: 3888: 3887: 3883: 3879: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3869: 3865: 3860: 3856: 3852: 3851: 3850: 3846: 3842: 3838: 3834: 3832: 3828: 3824: 3820: 3815: 3814: 3813: 3809: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3790: 3786: 3782: 3780: 3776: 3770: 3763:Degree course 3762: 3754: 3750: 3746: 3742: 3738: 3737: 3732: 3731: 3730: 3726: 3722: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3711: 3707: 3703: 3701: 3696: 3695: 3692: 3688: 3684: 3681: 3677: 3672: 3668: 3663: 3662: 3660: 3656: 3652: 3648: 3645: 3642: 3639: 3636: 3632: 3627: 3623: 3621: 3617: 3613: 3608: 3607: 3606: 3604: 3600: 3596: 3592: 3588: 3577: 3573: 3569: 3565: 3562: 3560: 3557: 3553: 3549: 3548: 3547: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3521: 3518: 3515: 3512: 3509: 3506: 3499: 3498: 3497: 3494: 3491: 3484: 3480: 3476: 3472: 3468: 3464: 3459: 3457: 3453: 3449: 3445: 3443: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3434: 3430: 3426: 3422: 3414: 3408: 3405: 3400: 3394: 3389: 3385: 3381: 3377: 3373: 3369: 3364: 3363: 3361: 3357: 3353: 3349: 3344: 3343: 3342: 3338: 3334: 3331: 3327: 3324: 3319: 3316: 3312: 3308: 3305:I agree with 3304: 3302: 3298: 3294: 3290: 3289: 3288: 3287: 3283: 3279: 3274: 3271: 3263: 3260:parameter to 3251: 3247: 3243: 3236: 3235: 3229: 3217: 3213: 3209: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3199: 3195: 3191: 3189: 3185: 3181: 3177: 3173: 3169: 3165: 3163: 3159: 3155: 3151: 3147: 3146: 3145: 3141: 3137: 3133: 3132: 3131: 3127: 3123: 3119: 3115: 3110: 3106: 3102: 3098: 3093: 3092: 3091: 3088: 3087: 3083: 3078: 3072: 3071: 3070: 3066: 3062: 3058: 3054: 3050: 3046: 3045: 3044: 3043: 3039: 3035: 3030: 3029: 3025: 3021: 3018: 3014: 3010: 3002: 2994: 2990: 2986: 2981: 2980: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2970: 2966: 2962: 2958: 2951: 2950: 2949: 2948: 2945: 2941: 2937: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2928: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2905: 2901: 2897: 2893: 2889: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2874: 2870: 2860: 2857:parameter to 2848: 2844: 2840: 2833: 2832: 2826: 2822: 2818: 2814: 2810: 2804: 2799: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2790: 2786: 2782: 2778: 2774: 2771: 2770: 2767: 2763: 2759: 2755: 2752: 2751: 2748: 2744: 2740: 2736: 2735:A: socialite. 2733: 2732: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2717: 2714: 2711: 2708: 2705: 2702: 2699: 2696: 2693: 2690: 2687: 2686: 2679: 2676: 2675: 2672: 2669: 2666: 2662: 2661: 2658: 2655: 2650: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2640: 2636: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2626: 2622: 2618: 2613: 2612: 2609: 2606: 2603: 2599: 2598: 2595: 2592: 2587: 2584: 2583: 2580: 2576: 2572: 2569: 2564: 2558: 2555: 2554: 2551: 2548: 2545: 2541: 2540: 2537: 2534: 2529: 2525: 2524: 2523: 2519: 2515: 2514: 2508: 2507: 2506: 2505: 2502: 2499: 2498: 2495: 2492: 2489: 2485: 2484: 2481: 2478: 2473: 2469: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2461: 2457: 2453: 2452: 2447: 2438: 2434: 2430: 2426: 2424: 2420: 2418: 2414: 2412: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2402: 2401: 2398: 2395: 2392: 2388: 2387: 2384: 2381: 2376: 2371: 2369: 2363: 2360: 2358: 2352: 2349: 2347: 2341: 2338: 2336: 2330: 2327: 2325: 2319: 2316: 2314: 2308: 2307: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2300: 2295: 2291: 2287: 2277: 2276: 2273: 2269: 2268: 2265: 2261: 2260: 2257: 2253: 2252: 2249: 2245: 2244: 2241: 2237: 2236: 2233: 2229: 2228: 2225: 2221: 2220: 2217: 2213: 2212: 2205: 2198: 2195: 2193: 2190: 2189: 2186: 2183: 2180: 2176: 2175: 2172: 2169: 2164: 2160: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2151: 2150: 2147: 2144: 2141: 2137: 2136: 2133: 2130: 2125: 2121: 2113: 2109: 2105: 2101: 2096: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2080: 2076: 2066: 2063:parameter to 2054: 2050: 2046: 2039: 2038: 2032: 2030: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2007: 2003: 1999: 1993: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1981: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1947: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1918: 1914: 1910: 1906: 1900: 1896: 1893: 1888: 1880: 1877: 1876: 1873: 1870: 1867: 1863: 1862: 1859: 1856: 1850: 1849: 1848: 1847: 1844: 1840: 1836: 1830: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1808: 1807: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1788: 1774: 1770: 1766: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1756: 1755: 1752: 1748: 1744: 1740: 1734: 1731: 1730: 1727: 1724: 1721: 1717: 1716: 1713: 1710: 1705: 1704: 1703: 1702: 1698: 1696: 1690: 1687: 1685: 1679: 1676: 1674: 1668: 1665: 1663: 1657: 1654: 1652: 1646: 1643: 1641: 1635: 1634: 1628: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1619: 1615: 1611: 1605: 1600: 1599: 1598: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1585: 1584: 1583: 1579: 1575: 1567: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1543: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1536: 1532: 1531:1.124.111.148 1522: 1519:parameter to 1510: 1506: 1502: 1495: 1494: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1476: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1456: 1452: 1446: 1442: 1438: 1434: 1429: 1428: 1427: 1426: 1422: 1418: 1414: 1413: 1409: 1402: 1394: 1389: 1386: 1382: 1376: 1373: 1371: 1365: 1361: 1353: 1351: 1347: 1343: 1338: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1327: 1323: 1319: 1318:217.234.72.93 1315: 1305: 1302:parameter to 1293: 1289: 1285: 1278: 1277: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1259: 1247: 1246: 1245: 1244: 1240: 1236: 1235:86.26.162.243 1226: 1223:parameter to 1214: 1210: 1206: 1199: 1198: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1172: 1164: 1163: 1162: 1161: 1157: 1153: 1147: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1127: 1124:parameter to 1115: 1111: 1107: 1100: 1099: 1093: 1091: 1090: 1086: 1082: 1077: 1076: 1072: 1068: 1059: 1057: 1056: 1052: 1048: 1041: 1036: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1020: 1016: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1009: 1005: 1002: 998: 997: 993: 992: 988: 983: 974: 971:parameter to 962: 958: 954: 947: 946: 940: 936: 932: 928: 924: 923:Personal Life 920: 912: 911: 910: 909: 905: 901: 900:217.234.72.93 897: 887: 884:parameter to 875: 871: 867: 860: 859: 856: 853: 845: 841: 837: 833: 832: 831: 830: 826: 822: 814: 810: 806: 802: 801:217.234.78.23 798: 792: 788: 785: 782: 781: 780: 777: 769: 766:parameter to 757: 753: 749: 742: 741: 738: 735: 729: 726: 722: 718: 714: 700: 696: 692: 688: 684: 680: 676: 673: 671: 667: 661: 657: 656: 655: 651: 647: 643: 639: 634: 633: 632: 628: 624: 621: 619: 617: 614: 613: 612: 611: 607: 603: 599: 591: 589: 588: 584: 580: 576: 572: 564: 560: 556: 552: 548: 547: 546: 545: 541: 537: 529: 526: 523: 520: 517: 516: 515: 508: 500: 497: 496: 492: 487: 482: 481: 480: 476: 472: 468: 467: 466: 463: 462: 458: 453: 448: 443: 442: 440: 435: 434: 432: 431: 430: 429: 425: 421: 416: 408: 405:parameter to 396: 392: 388: 381: 380: 374: 372: 371: 367: 363: 354: 348: 345: 344: 340: 335: 330: 329: 328: 324: 320: 316: 312: 308: 304: 301: 296: 295: 294: 293: 289: 285: 281: 273: 271: 270: 266: 262: 256: 255: 251: 247: 242: 240: 236: 232: 223: 213: 210: 209: 205: 200: 195: 194: 193: 192: 191: 190: 189: 188: 187: 186: 182: 178: 167: 163: 159: 154: 153: 152: 148: 144: 138: 132: 131: 130: 129: 126: 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