Talk:Grenfell Tower fire/Archive 4

3943:(after edit conflict) So far, the only concrete argument you've presented 'No "acceptable stable version" of any article would ever start with the sentence "Firefighters rescued 65 people."' appears to be a misunderstanding. The article does not and never has started with "Firefighters rescued 65 people". Whether you doubt that Martinevans123 looked at the text before putting it back is neither here nor there. Please provide some concrete rationale (beyond "you should know better, otherwise what are you doing editing an encyclopedia" (paraphrasing)) why the entire referenced section, which you removed without improvement or substitution, should remain outside the article, thank you. --- 5914:. As the previous comment noted the Lakanal fire didn't involve cladding, neither did the Harrow Court fire (which also had spread up the side of the building). The most relevant reasons for linking to the Shirley Towers fire - in my view - are that the Coroner issued a Rule 43 notice to government (and other bodies) calling for the retrofitting of sprinklers into all tower blocks over 30 metres tall. Also the Shirley Towers fire led directly to changes in building regulations, which is also relevant. 5937:, it appears that cladding was a major factor. The effect wasn't nearly as dramatic, because the facade of Lakanal had external walkways that separated the rows of cladding panels, whereas Grenfell had continuous cladding. The Lakanal fire also started much higher up. The quote that "botched renovations had removed fire-stopping material between flats and communal corridors" refers to another factor in Lakanal, which was that the renovations had left the flats with inadequate fire doors. 4199:

says that there are calls for the council leader "and some others" to resign, without saying who these calls were by and who the "some others" were. In fact, he resigned a few weeks later. If he hadn't, this would belong in the "Impact" section. The last paragraph begins a quote from a journalist from a socialist American magazine about how the "a symbol of the United Kingdom's deep inequality", followed by stuff which mostly duplicates content from the "Social division" subsection.

539:

survivors from 106 of the tower's 129 flats; eighteen people among the occupants of these flats were reported as dead or missing presumed dead, whereas most of those killed were said to have been in the remaining 23 flats between the 11th and 23rd floors. Some people from lower floors may have tried to move up the building, and it is thought a number of people may have ended up in one flat. Some victims were identified from twenty-six 999 calls made from inside the 23 flats.

2194:

it is moved just as it is then the Inquiry subsection in this article will be almost as big as the main article about the Inquiry. But clearly something should be done about this. I have limited Wiki time and work mainly on the Inquiry and Moore-Bick articles, so it won't be me who does it and I'm pointing out the problem here for those working on this article, since when I read through most of the article just now, the point I'm making sprung to mind immediately.

1241: 4268:

in this list are moved to the main page I remove them. Think of it as a rolling To Do list, similar to the To Do box at the top of this page. I do not modify comments made by other editors. I could have made a To Do list in my own user space, but it is more visible and useful to other editors to place it here. Two examples: The Met asking the Home Office to pay for the investigation, and KPMG quitting as auditor. There is no attempt to hide anything. Hope that helps.

31: 4934:

tower as it now looks. I will try and get more photos if and when the scaffolding and sheeting is extended to the whole tower. Presumably at some point the planned deconstruction/demolition/taking down of the tower will happen, and hopefully someone can document that with photos for use on Knowledge (XXG) as well. What will happen after that, I am not sure, though there may be some information in recent official reports and news reports.

5432:(10 June 2018), but that is veering deep into 'human interest' coverage, of which there are large amounts in many newspapers and which is probably not encyclopaedic (though it would be nice to acknowledge that coverage in some way). If reviews can be found of these programmes (the documentaries at least), then a short section on documentaries about the event can be started. In due course, I expect you will have books as well. 5094:. The inquiry has heard evidence that Mr. Kebede has has threats to his life made, and has had to enter a witness protection programme. BLP / BLP1E is the key here. Is the article substantially improved by naming him? I cannot see that it is. He is not a Wikinotable person, nor is there any suggestion of criminality on his part, so we should allow him to return to his previous state of being just another member of the public. 5514:. Bit of mixed bag. One of the print-on-demand ones might even be a repackaging of this article. There are also mentions appearing in academic books from reputable publishers. As an aside (very briefly!), the evolution of articles from using news sources to using printed sources doesn't always happen, or at least not smoothly - a case in point is the evolution of the 2348:

article, which are letters to and fro between Moore-Bick and TMay about the Terms, M-B appears to be asking for more leniency from the PM about immigration status so that those currently fearful can come forward and bear witness, but this request is in effect refused by her. Hey, you could use my newly-written refs for the docs! ;) I hope this helps.

99:. I am thinking that in 25 years researchers would welcome the list as a microcosm of 2017 West London society- the links it would provide would be immense- documenting the shortened lives of the disposessed rather than the Harrow and Eton bunch. Yes- lots of issues, at least it should be discussed so we can make a positive decision. -- 4870:

give it. In deciding, not to do so- I became conscious that to deny the victims their place here was a deeply offensive political act, condoning one political view of social housing. We have a whole article on Steven Lawrence so why are these childrens' names denied their place. Can we comment on this and work up a method. --

1947:. I don't have the time right now to add a full citation to the article, but at some point it might be a good idea to mention these tests and note that the first test was terminated at 8 minutes, because the assembly had already failed the test, when the assembly is supposed to withstand the fire for 40 minutes. -- 5130:

I've scheduled the article to appear as part on On This Day on 14 June. Currently, there is one paragraph that is unreferenced. Can we either find references for this paragraph or remove it. There are some editors that would say this is enough reason to prevent its appearance. My own view is that one

2788:

Snow appears to be widening this debate and as WP is strong on using the notable sources he is talking about, there is an implication that we are part of the elite too. This is an article where I will use the talk page, but will not edit as my politics might show through. Do what you can with the new

2742:

I need to read this. There is a Social Division heading under Political Criticism. To answer the question: Notability? We now have a reason for the tower being of considerable note. But why would it be notable before the fire? As part of a general article on Social Housing or Tower Block Architecture

1002:

Yes, the faulty fridge was the origin of the fire. But suggesting that this as the only cause, as the infobox does, seems less than ideal. The causal contribution of the cladding, compared to that of the initial fire source, seems so much greater. How have other fire article infoboxes dealt with this

5446:

Thank you for your oversight and suggestions. I've added external links over time. Subject will continue to grow for years with text books, autobiographies, films, the inquiry, trials, legislation. We are not short of material. What we are short of is structure and concise writing to aid navigation,

5403:

To be fair, it is clear that all the families were offered new housing, it is that most of them chose (as is their right) to reject the offers and keep waiting for better options. Getting the balance between sorting this as soon as possible, and getting it right rather than rushing it is clearly not

5388:

I agree with everything said above. It can be used as a source & is extremely good background material -though probably familiar to most editors here. Much better however to look for another source having found out more info. I was unaware that May's promise to rehouse everyone, not only wasn't

3624:

The main picture for this page was taken by a twitter user. Her pictures were used by AFP and The Daily Telegraph. For speed of reporting and access to eyewitness material it is hard to beat citizen journalism. I follow many official and journalistic sources in real time. And fact-check pro-actively

3572:

Thank you for comments. Nobody could reasonably argue that Commissioner Dany Cotton or The London Fire Brigade are not credible sources! But the point about access and bandwidth is an understandable consideration. Some places may firewall twitter or video, even if they have a fast enough connection.

2347:

for his unceasing work on this article. I'd get involved, but looking after (primarily) the Inquiry article is enough for me. So I'll take this opportunity to point out to you, David, that in the two PDF docs newly-referenced in the new Social housing subsection to the Terms section of the Inquiry

2119:

Yes, but are they actually going to do that. The source uses both terms. As I said, deconstruction in an engineering context is usually done when there are things to recover for reuse or recycling, or when the structure is going to be rebuilt somewhere else. Neither would apply to Grenfell Tower. So

2042:

1. (philosophy, literature) A philosophical theory of textual criticism; a form of critical analysis that emphasizes inquiry into the variable projection of the meaning and message of critical works, the meaning in relation to the reader and the intended audience, and the assumptions implicit in the

1050:

I agree with you, Martin. (Yes really - I know we've had our differences) In which case...the statement that the faulty appliance was *the cause* is somewhat misleading. Perhaps something along the lines of "first flames, which led to the cladding taking the conflagration up the building" would be

5839:

a week ago (beginning of June 2018) where the top of the tower does now have some green in the form of a heart on banners saying 'Grenfell - Forever in our hearts'. When my train went past the tower this morning, I could see that they have finished putting these banners up. It has been done for the

5634:

I've re-added a very few words on the Courtfield ward leaflet issued 5 months after the fire together with 4 references. This was widely covered BUT -as the sources indicate -it is an indication of how important some councillors feel the issue is. Despite 50 years+ interest in politics, I haven't

4267:

It's a fair point. I edit my own comments in the "Ongoing News" list to clean it up, and replace the timestamp when I edit. This section changes with the news cycle. When I don't have time to edit the main page, or a story is first developing, I will put it on the list if significant. When subjects

3157:

First apologies for the slow response due to a gremlin hitting my watchlist. Second, more apologies that you can't read it. It is a downloadable MP3 podcast in the UK & I didn't need to register or sign in to IPlayer. It is also most unfortunate that the fire isn't covered at all in Knowledge

2193:

In the Political Criticism subsection of the Analyis section there is one massive para which is all to do with the Inquiry. I'm not suggesting that it be moved lock stock and barrel into the Inquiry subsection of the Investigations section, because it needs some re-writing itself, I think. And if

1657:

The initial reports (Independent 16th June ) reported a 'faulty fridge freezer later reports (Telegraph 23rd June ) had changed it. I have no qualms accepting that there had been power surge. It is a POV, that the power surge, could have caused the fridge freezer to fault, or develop a fault- hence

1447:

At the moment, there is one sub-section, about the Public Inquiry. The rest of the section has paragraphs in it which are about one or another type of investigation (RBKC, police, fire service) which are often mixed up in individual paras. There is also at least one para without any refs at all.

1161:

OK. Define "Cause." Met Police say it *started* with a Hotpoint fridge. You could include the cladding as contributory. But arguably the environment: lack of investment in social housing, poor white goods safety standards, poor building standards or enforcement, lack of international cooperation on

4933:

and look for files with 'May 2018' in the filename (I will add a photo or two to the articles, but please add or remove photos as needed). The scaffolding has been gradually inching up the tower over the past year, along with the white sheeting, and I thought it would be good to have photos of the

4869:

There is an external link to the Guardian article that names the victims giving mini-testimonials. Is this enough- I have refrained from doing anything as I have mixed feelings about how it fits in with wikipedias perception of the scope of an encyclopedia. Also I would know how much prominence to

4198:

The other problem is that many subsections have become jumbled. For example, look at the "Neglect" subsection. The first paragraph is about how the council was criticised for its response. Then we have a line when Sadiq Khan blames "neglect" for causing the fire. The next sentence of the paragraph

4194:

However, this is different. It would be hard to argue that anyone outside of one organisation (WCRC) was to blame for the Wootton Bassett SPAD incident. This incident is far more serious and its causes are far more complex. Some are treating it as politically charged. Because of this, I don't know

2977:

I have had a look at our politcal criticisms, and it seems out aim to be NPOV has caused all our referencing (and writing) to err on the side of the establishment. We couldn't use the Grenfell Residents blog as a source NS when in effect we should have been- and shouting loudly too. I have started

1781:

IMHO The alliterative phrase "faulty fridge" originates as a journalistic poetry soundbite. Possibly even from BBC as they are not beyond popular tabloidism. The fridge bit has been subject to alternative spelling debate but nobody thinks it was the talking toaster. I'd leave it bare until we have

4416:

Could the impact section be expanded to mention investigations about similar buildings e.g. whether they will have cladding removed or replaced, who is paying/will pay for it, freeholders & councils refusing to pay for work which they/someone says is needed following the fire and leaseholders

3642:

My main point is about a verified official source using social media. If the White House post something on their official YouTube channel it is still the US Federal Government, even if they use the medium of YouTube. Some editors seem to object to *anything* that uses social media. But it is just

3500:

I understand that social media is not always a reliable source but where does Knowledge (XXG) stand on using video footage from a verified account from a public figure as a reference when social media is an increasingly popular communications vector for official bodies? Example: Dany Cotton video

2992:

My thoughts are that if we have 5 or 10 quotes all supporting the same argument, can we consolidate those into one point stating the argument itself and its supporters rather than a list of quotations? My aim being to make for a more efficient reading experience. Obviously, its still a reasonably

2774:

Notable! Construction technique- framed unlike Ronan Point. Six flats not the usual four. Internal service wells unlike Trelleck. On the cusp of funding changes which meant Lancaster West Estate was designed to Parker Morris standards, then stopped half way and the rest built to the reduced space

4202:

The obvious solution is to edit this subsection, however the nearby neighbouring subsections are just as bad (and any criticism of the inquiry really should go on the inquiry's article, rather than here). I'm writing this to illustrate the problem, which I guess is a result of piecemeal editing.

3321:, the common & deadly aspect of these fires is not really the height of the building but the spread of the fire via an inflammable external structure. Ronan point sorted out much of the risk of structural collapse before Grenfell though a few Ronan point era buildings weren't properly fixed. 1658:

change from being a working fridge freezer to a faulty fridge freezer. I prefer to use the earlier RS- not one published five days later when other influences could have required the editor to change the wording. Besides working fridge freezers don't burst into flames- it must have been faulty.--

542:

The missing include many children including Amaya Ahmedin (aged 3, 19th floor), Biruk Habtom (aged 12), Fathia Ibrahim, Fatima Choucair, Firdaws Hashim, Hania Ibrahim, Jeremiah Dean (2, 14th floor), Jessica Urbano Ramiez (12, 20th floor), Mehdi El-Wahabi (8), Mierna Choucair, Yaqub Hashim, Yayha

538:

The police said they were using "every imaginable source" of information "from government agencies to fast food companies" to identify casualties, but did not expect a final figure until 2018 when the search and recovery operation is over. On 28 June, the authorities stated that there were known

5654:

Having seen leaflets at various points in the past that contained dog-whistle messaging, lies and personal attacks, I was sceptical that a leaflet asking residents to "rate the importance" was noteworthy enough for the article. I admit I didn't read the sources at the time, and now the cause of

5223:

My personal preference would be to cut the enitre Fake News section. Many stories today will have this dimention. Is it noteworthy enough for inclusion? Knowledge (XXG) is not the right platform for documenting fake news - unless it is in an article about fake news itself. Anyone else feel like

3259:

Hi David and thanks for an early response. I think the section title should be altered to refer to fires spreading via the building's structure so that the otherwise relevant Summerland fire can be logically included. Given the problems I won't press the Watson street comparison until it has an

3016:

This does take a bit of distance- and a lot of thought. I think that articles have a life- they start unstructured and small- then grow and grow to the point where we are proud of them- but to become a GA or FA they have to gain focus and will contract sharply. We have approached this one in an

2854:

How about a "Media response" subsection on coverage and include Snow? I understand anyone wary of the politics: its an easy way to upset folks. Simpler to do police figures or the height of the building. Also the detail can be worthy, boring and endless. I started noticing how good news reports

3597:

Twitter is my least favourite source because we can all think of cases where the output was hasty, ill considered and later bitterly regretted. The London Fire Brigade & many public bodies will have a media trained operative who knows what he/she is doing but it's impossible to generalise.

5252:

While these reports are false and distasteful by their very existence, someone searching for information on the fire may come upon them. So I think it's important to leave a mention that false information exists, and that they were discredited. I've trimmed most of the detail and retained the

3521:

For an article like this I would prefer sources over Twitter however if there is none then Twitter in my eyes is the next best thing, FWIW I use Twitter for sources if nothing else is available but yeah can't see why Twitter cannot be used especially when it's coming from a verified and legit

1032:

I agree. As with many accidents, especially aviation accidents, there is often a misguided search in the popular media to determine a single overarching cause. That's usually a convenient myth. If the fridge really was "the cause" all the resulting safety activity would have focused on fridge

5669:

I'm very pleased you say you didn't read the sources but there's no excuse at all for the councillors who produced the survey. Re Braford city fire which I'm less familiar with, I note in the lead "Bradford City continues to support the Burns Unit at Bradford Royal Infirmary as its official

3892:

The lead section is the overview. No "acceptable stable version" of any article would ever start with the sentence "Firefighters rescued 65 people." I doubt very much that you even looked at the text before you put it back. Exactly where do you think a consensus was formed for including such

5892:

If the criterion for inclusion is fires that were spread via external cladding (and that is what the section introduction says), then Lakanal House should not be included either. The fire at LH spread because "botched renovations had removed fire-stopping material between flats and communal

2084:: "In the context of physical construction, deconstruction is the selective dismantlement of building components, specifically for re-use, repurposing, recycling, and waste management. It differs from demolition where a site is cleared of its building by the most expedient means."# 3126:

OK I could not play it either: you need to register for iPlayer now and thats not open enough for here. Also from reader comments to a newspaper report on the programme it appears the link is "tenuous" so I am just going to cut this (enthusiastic journalism) out completely. REF:

1535:

While most fridges and freezers work safely for years, they are potentially the most dangerous appliance in the home if they are involved in a blaze because they contain so many flammable materials. They are also one of the few electrical items to be always left on when you are

1427:

I want to pin down the number of firefighters. 5 FF per engine times 70 engines = 350. The only direct quote I have seen is "More than 200" but I will look further. Cotton says so many were present they could not all fit in the building and were limited by the single stairwell.

4396:

from the article. I've given this some thought, and on balance I think that the article is poorer without it. I can seen the reasoning behind the removal, which is why I'm raising this for discussion rather than reverting. Should the infobox be restored to the article or not?

4133:

Regulation failures: needs a clearer narrative. It doesn't clearly answer the question of why flammable cladding gets approved. Even if nobody fully knows, it could at least explain what is known and what is unknown. Criticism of government would fit better into the section

4195:

how possible it is to produce balanced coverage, but we can do surely better than this. For instance, in one of the two moments I could find when someone from the council is given a voice, the text introduces his words in this way: "he was criticised for his remark that..."

1796:

An informative & useful discussion -thank you. Given previous power surges I agree we can't blame the fridge ATM. FWIW, my own experience of damaging surges relates to transient spikes from emergency generators -which I've read the tower had albeit just for lighting.

3675:

Yes, this is covered in the policy I linked above: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."

3017:

exemplary way so far, and your diligence has ensured that we have missed nothing. Some of the stuff can now go, but it is time to review our balance and per 'Jon Snow' check that we are representing the victims, and not just playing out the battles oń the 'medias agenda'.

4043:

of criticism from the article. It is not Knowledge (XXG)'s job to suppress criticisms made in respect of the fire, events leading up to it, or events afterwards. It is simply our job to report the facts, and supply references for material incorporated into the article.

94:

Can I reiterate the thanks to all the editors of this page. Watching the press we are now getting the autopsy reports of the victims, and press reports and bios of many of the survivors. I can't decide whether it is just ghoulish or encyclopedic to write a page

275:

Spelling differences won't upset the guys here and will soon be corrected. The hat note is mainly a warning that errors will be corrected. More of a problem will be that this is a highly monitored, high profile article and any edit needs to be referenced with

3158:(XXG) & this will need to be done but its way past my bedtime. The BBC and other Scottish sources link Grenfell and Watson street through similarities in the tenants social background, the ignored safety standards AND propagation by external cladding. 130:

There is no way you could get reliable sources on everything that would be of interest in such an article so it would either be very incomplete or original research, neither of which is acceptable. Write it on your own blog if you feel inspired to record

5463:

My thoughts precisely. There are still some parts of the article that are hard for a visitor to read because they have too much information. We can always split things off into other articles or direct people to other sources if they want to know more.

5518:

article over time (or pick any disaster article that was extensively covered in the news media with those reports used to build a Knowledge (XXG) article). I'll stop there. I have a photo of the tower with the banners on top - I will upload that soon.

4078:

as there was no edit summary. I accepted that the edit had been made in good faith which is why I undid it instead of using rollback. On the face of it, it seemed to me to be a case of censorship. Your comments below are noted and I'll respond there.

5051:

There's a lot of repetition in this article. I've cut some of it, but someone with a better understanding of its structure needs to step in and work out what information will be in each section, then delete the same information from other sections.

3643:

another method, like handwriting, printing or broadcasting. It can be used by anyone for good or evil, and any method can be hacked, spoofed or forged. So, it does come down to the common sense and thoughtful judgement of a human, not an algorithm.

4137:

Political criticism: This section has POV issues. For instance, there are no quotes from a politician in the governing party or council ruling group, but many from their rivals and critics. Comments about regulation should be merged into the above

550:

A total of 151 homes were destroyed in the tower and surrounding area. The incident ranks as the deadliest structural fire in the United Kingdom since the start of the 20th century, when detailed records began. The death toll is higher than the

1470:

Thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking about this too. Initially, it was a small section but is growing over time. I have had a go at adding sensible sub-sections, grouping elements and referencing. This continues to be a work in progress.

4108:

Building: The first subsections are mostly okay. However, the later subsections need rewriting. This is section is about prior events but there are too many hindsight comments. Some of this content duplicates or needs moving to the political

280:

and they will be challenged, as the expertise of the author will be assessed. If you are coming here afresh, considered posting your changes here on the talk page so they can gain concensus before they are posted in main space. Best wishes.

2213:

Yes! To be honest, I have been scrolling past it without reading and I bet most people browsing the page are doing the same. Not impossible to break up (it's shorter than an NTSB report) but it's going to take a bit longer than 10 minutes.

2993:

young page and there will be expansion for some time yet, although the event itself has finished so that's not going to change. I'll look at Snow's video and (ongoing learning) at other articles for ideas about structure, style et al.

5840:

1-year anniversary tomorrow (14 June). If anyone reading this is paying their respects at the events marking the anniversary, they could maybe get some photos (depending on the situation and if it is appropriate). There is an article

3876:

Is the overview of "such substandard content" that the article is better off without any overview at all? I thought this overview had been achieved, by consensus, after months of editing, as an acceptable stable version of a summary.

5655:

offence is now at least explained better. Here's the test for notability: suppose someone had handed out a leaflet like this in a Bradford ward 5 months after the Bradford stadium fire – would it be worth including on that article?

4059:

The reason why I'm attempting to rewrite these parts of the article is because many sections are jumbled, violate NPOV, duplicate content from elsewhere in the article or any combination of the three. The article needs rewriting.

2708:

This could open a whole new section if anyone is brave enough to tackle it- it is not just the news media, but also Knowledge (XXG) that suffers from the same perspectives. Why for instance was there no article on the innovative

3763: 2594:

Doing some prep with idea of making chronology into a table. Just found some live news site Refs were updated, so no longer prove the text. Think it might be a good idea to work through from the top to check them, bit by bit.

2120:

once all the forensic and investigation work has been done, it is likely to be demolished, which does not necessarily mean bringing the building down in "one fell swoop" (e.g. by implosion). Demolition can also be methodical.

5844:

about some of the events taking place, with a 24-hour vigil starting at 6pm today. Something about that could be added to the article. Will probably need its own section, though not sure where (the article is a bit large!).

1162:

standards, greed, ignorance of consequence, evasion of responsibility, deference to authority, the status quo, karma... could be considered part of the "Cause." Maybe we could use a neutral, narrow technical word like

5810:

After a look on Google Images, I found a couple of pictures of how it appeared in the 11 month period between when the works finished and the fire. However, these all come from news sources so can't be freely used.

3554:. It would be better if the Twitter-published video could be paired with a written description of the information from a reliable source; that also helps with accessibility for WP readers that cannot watch video. 2743:

maybe: but was there anything special about this particular tower before the fire? Who would have thought to document this, unless they had a conflict of interest? I recognise your point is wider than this page.

543:

Hashim and Zeinab Choucair. The youngest of those known killed, Leena Belkadi, was just 6 months old. One victim died in hospital on 15 June due to inhalation of fire fumes. Additionally, one survivor suffered a

2775:

standard, and then using in house LCC designers.This was the only tower block to be designed by that architect. That it is was reluctantly included in the original plan to push up the density of the estate. Mmm.

5893:

corridors". Although the cladding "burnt through in just four and a half minutes" it did not contribute to the spread of the fire (unlike Grenfell, the cladding was not continuous up the side of the building).

3429:

Government published terms of reference for Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety. Need to do some restructuring to consolidate this subject as its mentioned in more than one place. See:

5826:

Talking of images, the current appearance of the tower has changed again. I took the May 2018 image with the protective covering and scaffolding reaching to near the top of the tower. At the start of May,

432:

As of 28 June 2017, the official presumed number of deaths was 80. As of 5 July 2017, 21 victims have been formally identified and their families informed. A handful more are missing and assumed dead,

2148:

Deconstruction does not mean what you think it means! It's a method of critical analysis of philosophical and literary language that emphasizes the internal workings of language and conceptual systems.

3166:

Remembering the Glasgow tragedy which killed 39 of the city's poorest workers ..The victims perished in a lodging house that had been lauded as a 'model', but proved to be a wooden-clad deathtrap.

5075:, and wondering if the consensus on not naming him in the article still stands? He's been widely named in the coverage of the inquiry; it seems remarkable for Knowledge (XXG) to refuse to do so. 3369:

No problems -and psychologically rational anyway. I suspect whatever we say or do our readers will associate Grenfell with the dangers of high rise living and not inflammable structures. Regards

2167:

I hope I clearly demonstrate the Engineering definition was intended, not philosophy. Either way, there is currently insufficient information publicly available to say what methods will be used.

2007: 5796:

Nothing freely available on Flickr either. Might be possible to use a non-free image with suitable rationales, or persuade a photographer to release under a Knowledge (XXG) compatible licence.

2009: 3764:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gI2d-LIqHhIJ:www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/assets-and-regeneration/152/grenfell-tower-q-and-as-remote-heat-metering+&cd=18&hl=en&ct=clnk

2447:

will do! ;) It's not so much my article of course, but hardly anyone else has written anything. It only gets on average <100 hits per day anyway. Were you aware of this little marvel:

4689: 3921:

No. If I wanted to remove the first sentence, I would have removed the first sentence. I removed all the material which fell woefully short of encyclopaedic quality. You seem to be trolling.

615: 5729: 4544: 5836: 3450:

I propose we have some kind of "ongoing" section where we can dump consequential events such as this review, public enquiry, inquests, etc. to keep it all together. Welcome to any ideas.

5959:

Brokenshire published a long written statement on the future direction of regulation and some detail on the housing situation. He mentions Hackitt's report. Quite a bit of detail here.

4484: 1698:(Edit clash) How odd, I used to work for NG -albeit mostly to do with gas and I thought I'd better look up whether anti-surge filters would be fitted to buildings like Grenfell. I note 785: 4847: 3281:

Logically, one could exclude the Summerland fire to keep the list pure, Captain. I have not checked if there is one, but could these fires form the basis for a list style article?

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https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&start=2017-06-30&end=2017-07-16&pages=Grenfell_Tower_Fire_Inquiry

5408:(from December 2017). There are also parliamentary debates and news programme features. The longer documentaries are mostly still available. As well as the one mentioned above ( 4930: 1636: 1574:

Yes. It was reported shorty after the time of the fire that there had been power surges in the building. It's possible that that caused a non-faulty fridge to burst onto flame.

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We still do not have a photo of the building before it burned (after the cladding was installed). We have only photos before the cladding was installed, or after it burned.

4225:

Currently Hackitt's review is nested in Section 11. I think it could be promoted up and expanded now the interim report is published. This section might need restructuring.

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I looked at the style manual - there are no hard and fast rules on headings b/c of the diverse nature of subject matter. Anyway, have put more bones in to hang paras off.

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to archive links so the archives may be valid even if the current urls have changed. For these sort of topics it's worth archiving each reference as soon as it is used.

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to add the word 'faulty' to the description of the fridge have been removed by two 1st time editors. The London Fire Brigade highlighted five months before the tragedy

4514: 5962: 4490: 1068:"Everyone knows it to be true" is not valid reasoning for inclusion. There are likely to be multiple complimentary factors at play, not just solely, "the cladding." 1051:

appropriate. But then some wikiidiot would probably say "oh that's not yet been proven, that's conjecture or WP:BLABLA" even though everyone knows it to be true.

5670:

charity." Evidence that they at least didn't regard the disaster as trivial and that the Knowledge (XXG) editors of that article regard it as significant. Regards

2932: 1913:

currently, the 3rd para of the Cause & spread section gives info on repeated power surge problems. I can't see a reason to insist on 'faulty' being reinserted.

4925:

I am leaving a note here for the editors of this article to say that I have recently uploaded a set of photos of Grenfell Tower and the surrounds in May 2018. See

3998:

I've added the polling of Courtfield ward to the "Council response" section. Feel free of course to remove & discuss if you feel it's controversial. Regards

2105:

In the case of Grenfell Tower, I understand "deconstruction" mean a careful, methodical, demolition, as opposed to just bringing the tower down in one fell swoop.

3431: 2819:- please do edit the article, doing your best to remain neutral. Other editors will stop you getting wildly out of control. It should all balance out in the end. 4508: 116:

I'd say not. So far, there is only one victim notable enough to sustain an article, and that victim is very much at the lower end of the scale for notability.

5301:

including interviews with the residents whose human compassion and organising skills contrasts sharply -in my opinion -with Kensington & Chelsea council.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-cladding-fire-safety-checked-acm-cladding-aluminium-composite-material-reynobond-a8200801.html

5253:

references. This way an interested person can read for themselves. This solves the issue of undue weight by minimizing the section from 4 paragraphs to 1.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-crime-fire-brigade-union-fbu-matt-wrack-topple-theresa-may-tory-government-a7967471.html

3383:"While the Review will cover the regulatory system for all buildings, it will have a specific focus on multi occupancy high rise residential buildings." 1388: 838: 341: 316: 4634: 1082:

Aviation accident articles generally just use "under investigation" or something similar, at least until an interim official report has been published.

4485:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-kensington-and-chelsea-council-leader-heckled-with-calls-to-resign-at-tense-meeting-a3618796.html

3241:

The following are similar high-rise fires that spread through exterior wall assemblies (cladding, insulation, wall) containing combustible components.

2524:

Does anyone have a photo of the building after the refurbishment? All I'm currently seeing is either before the refurbishment or during/after the fire.

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with a mind of NPOV but also non-establishmentarianism to write in the political criticism section. Support needed- but it does give some indicators.

1544:. I propose we say it is believed to be caused by a faulty fridge. There are of course far more important issues than the original quite small fire. 1632: 4677: 913: 903: 4180:

Re point 14, the demolition section is necessarily short at the moment. It will no doubt be expanded in due course as the building is taken down.

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the golden rule: did a reliable source connect it to the subject of the article (I'd check myself but cannot listen to a podcast at my location)?

2087:

The building will be demolished (that is also a term the source uses). I doubt very much that it will be a "selective dismantlement" for "reuse".

5162:"In the immediate aftermath of the fire, a number of unsubstantiated reports about casualties circulated online which were to later be debunked." 928: 202: 3768:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170614133303/http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/assets-and-regeneration/152/grenfell-tower-q-and-as-remote-heat-metering

145:

We don't usually produce lists of victims, so I'd say we shouldn't do it here. Any notable individuals could be mentioned in the main article.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-victims-demands-list-read-full-rehousing-funds-latest-news-a7794391.html

337:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-victims-demands-list-read-full-rehousing-funds-latest-news-a7794391.html

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link. I'll pop over to 'your article' and have a look- from the POV of the naive general reader- delete if I start getting too political.

2015:

is an improvement anyway. We could add those two sources to back up the assertion (still implicit in the text now) that they're locals. --

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http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Brigade-reissues-essential-safety-advice-on-white-goods-following-Grenfell-fire.asp

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I think many Love pets died .... in the BBC 21st floor program a child was carrying a Dog but it was not made clear if the dog made it.

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I just looked on Amazon for books related to Grenfell. I was surprised at how much it is already out there (well, it has been a year).

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Thanks, both. Glad my numerous additions (and subtractions) count. Lets hope society will rise stronger from this whole flaming mess.

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Not a fire that spread through exterior wall assemblies: *1905 ] – a major fire in Glasgow which led to building regulation changes

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https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/sep/06/australia-must-ban-cladding-of-type-linked-to-grenfell-disaster-inquiry-finds

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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It's out. Seems all got out. Sun removed reference to cladding, locals say its not clad and you can see the pictures for yourself.

1495:

Agreed - it's all still developing day-by-day, and will do, I'm sure, for many months yet. You did just fine, David, thank you!

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https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-demands-government-creates-first-social-housing-tsar-after-grenfell-a3624736.html

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/28/grenfell-tower-fire-was-tory-austerity-to-blame-or-do-problems-date-back-to-blair

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Material used on the outside of the Summerland building was partly responsible for the severity of the fire. It should be kept.

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/independent-review-of-building-regulations-and-fire-safety-publication-of-terms-of-reference

5404:

easy. On the iplayer programmes, there are a number of these. Some are no longer available, such as the live broadcast of the

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has no citations - but but is supported by the citations in the rest of that section; much like the lede of a whole article.

4509:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/new-boss-in-charge-of-finding-homes-for-grenfell-families-will-earn-100k-a3631586.html

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Re point 11, it is difficult to give quotes from the ruling party if they are all keeping schtum. I had this issue with the

224:

Could my edits here be reverted if I only use American spelling? That "scary box" at the top confuses me, otherwise I'll be

4611:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fire-rips-through-factory-owned-by-maker-of-grenfell-tower-cladding-panels-a3676516.html

4177:, where there was much criticism of the train operator involved, but said operator generally refused to speak to the press. 3165: 3129:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15418996.Glasgow_tenement_fire_that_killed_39_men_was__just_like_Grenfell___show_claims/

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https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/police-probe-fraud-cases-and-thefts-following-grenfell-tower-disaster-a3638266.html

3346:

I also strongly agree, given the human scale and nature of the event. But mathematically, my ridiculous alternative was a

3043:

I found the following text has been commented out in Similar fires - UK. Should it be deleted, left as is or put back in?

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completed in the 3 weeks specified, it wasn't even half completed a year later and many people will find that shocking.

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involve external cladding? This seems to be the characteristic editors use for it to count here under "Similar Fires."

5828: 5417: 3966: 2547:. I need interior shots, vistas from the tower- anything! I need shots of the finger blocks, and the later housing for 933: 839:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/list-of-people-missing-after-grenfell-tower-fire-continues-to-grow-6708551/#ixzz4nDrK3LAy

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http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/didnt-blaze-grenfell-towers-yesterday-make-fall-just-like-building-7-world-trade-center/

317:

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/didnt-blaze-grenfell-towers-yesterday-make-fall-just-like-building-7-world-trade-center/

5760:

Ignore the above, I misread the question. What we are looking for is post cladding and pre fire. Nothing on Geograph.

4635:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/26/grenfell-tower-management-company-hands-responsibility-back-to-council

4581:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-berkshire-41445559/grenfell-fire-water-in-insulation-may-have-accelerated-fire

2413: 2378: 1106: 4017: 1411: 616:"Grenfell Tower fire: Total death toll from devastating blaze may not be known until the end of the year, say police" 4671: 4496: 1944: 5425: 5374:

No, but sources that are more widely accessible are preferred, if they can be used to source the same information.

4955:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/23/replacing-cladding-on-tower-blocks-will-mean-fewer-affordable-homes

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4622998/Simon-Cowell-confirms-release-date-Grenfell-charity-track.html

38: 1966:

Here we go again: looks like it spread on the outside of the tower. "Massive fire breaks out at Dubai skyscraper"

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http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Total-Recalls-campaign-victory-22-01-2018.asp#.WmX8na5l-Uk

4115:

Casualties: Mostly okay. This section is related to the Impact subsection but probably too big to merge with it.

3798:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

914:

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-governments-safety-advisers-are-not-neutral-says-academic-10953192

904:

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-governments-safety-advisers-are-not-neutral-says-academic-10953192

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LFB has a campaign to improve white goods safety standards including how they are made, numbered and recalled:

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http://news.sky.com/story/toxic-gases-released-during-grenfell-tower-fire-may-have-caused-some-deaths-10922685

5597:

building is cladded. And on a closer read, that may not actually be the one on fire—it's a little ambiguous.

5503: 5833:"Victims of the fire want the safety screen to be changed to green, which could cost an estimated £400,000." 5495: 5176: 5033: 4964: 3833: 3755: 2125: 2092: 1586: 1240: 975: 893: 888: 233: 5499: 5491: 5479: 2792: 5553: 5429: 1828:

It is wrong to state what caused this fire when it is still under investigation. It is as simple as that.

1018:

Fridge was the primary cause, secondary cause was the design, installation and materials of the cladding.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-inferno-disaster-waiting-happen-concerns-raised/

377:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/london-woman-feared-dead-grenfell-tower-fire-alive-article-1.3271358

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BTW I am happy to leave @Lard_Almighty 's edit to Demolition but it is not technically the same thing :)

899:

http://www.ghanavisions.com/news/world/155984-grenfell-tower-victim-identified-by-her-dental-records.html

859:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/list-of-people-missing-after-grenfell-tower-fire-continues-to-grow-6708551/

357:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/list-of-people-missing-after-grenfell-tower-fire-continues-to-grow-6708551/

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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/06/ministers-refusing-pay-improvements-fire-safety-grenfell

4250:

Forgive me but why does it seem like you are changing the timestamps on your posts on this talkpage?...

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Demolition: This section is very short, though I admit there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to fit it.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If the fridge caught fire, it could be anything that caused it and not necessary the fridge was faulty.

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http://news.sky.com/story/two-people-rescued-after-major-flooding-hits-cornwall-coastal-village-10953368

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/22/cladding-just-three-300-tower-blocks-replaced-wake-grenfell/

4587:

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-former-council-leader-nicholas-paget-brown-quits-11088513

3754:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 3471: 2552: 1540:

In English law it is unnecessary to prove a device is faulty if its behaviour clearly shows it is -see

924:

http://news.sky.com/story/firefighters-search-for-worker-after-old-church-collapses-in-cardiff-10953054

347:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/london-grenfell-tower-fire-toll-79-dead-missing-new-images-inside-interior/

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UK government admits £400m to replace flammable cladding will be taken from Affordable Homes Programme

4762:

https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/ng-interactive/2017/nov/18/life-shadow-grenfell-tower-next-door

1874:

Flamability of fridge compared with higher USA standards (mentioned previously) may have contributed.

884:

http://news.sky.com/story/isaac-paulous-aged-five-identified-as-victim-of-grenfell-tower-fire-10928606

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I agree, David. Perhaps "The initial ignition point was..." Simply "the cause was..." is ridiculous.

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http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/27/one-last-people-pulled-grenfell-tower-dies-seven-months-later-7346680/

4557:

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1398652-glasgow-flats-with-grenfell-type-cladding-to-be-identified/

3772:

http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/assets-and-regeneration/152/grenfell-tower-q-and-as-remote-heat-metering

3573:

Some concepts are luddite and backward facing, so I will have to make my own judgements in context.

3547: 1451:

I think the section needs to be sorted by subsection and trawled for pieces without any citation.

307:

https://www.sott.net/article/354119-Londons-Grenfell-Tower-blaze-killed-500-residents-Local-resident

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Then I looked at ==Political Criticism== in disbelief and googled "austerity caused grenfell tower"

2922: 2905: 2856: 2769: 2744: 2666: 2642: 2598: 2497: 2416:- so going back to the main article was like going in afresh. I have added a hatnote and a further 2342: 2319: 2239: 2215: 2168: 2064: 1981: 1970: 1900: 1896:

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/total-recalls/change-the-way-fridges-and-freezers-are-constructed.asp

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https://www.cultofmac.com/489016/apple-invites-users-donate-following-u-k-s-grenfell-tower-tragedy/

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Correct. What did the building look like shortly before it burned? That's the image we need imho.

4736:

Ministers refusing to honour commitment to pay for fire-safety improvements in other tower blocks

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Grenfell Tower fire is a 'crime' that should topple the government, says Fire Brigade Union chief

4144:

Investigations: As these have more official status than fire safety reviews, they should go first.

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http://uk.businessinsider.com/grenfell-tower-david-lammy-suggests-death-toll-was-covered-up-2017-6

387:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

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ever seen such a trivialisation of a disaster like this. I hope I misinterpreted what you meant

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/28/grenfell-tower-management-firm-loses-housing-contract/

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4616234/Firefighter-called-Grenfell-Tower-5-days-job.html

312:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4606502/May-visits-Grenfell-Tower-vows-learn-lessons.html

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Going to park news here that can be mined / referenced. Will move some material to the article.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

909:

http://news.sky.com/story/german-girl-16-reportedly-arrested-in-mosul-for-supporting-is-10952937

4316:(What has this got to do with the fire? journalist making news for the sake of selling papers. 3818: 2665:

Added a To Do box. I am still a novice editor so feel free to work on this if you know better.

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Yes, it does. Shows how events unfolded and the reactions to them in the days after the fire.

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/19/emma-dent-coad-grenfell-interview-shaun-bailey

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In British English, deconstruction is an Engineering term meaning to disassemble a structure:

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to tell us what the power surge tolerance is on the Hotpoint FF175BP. Not that that would be

844:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/death-toll-rises-to-79-in-londons-grenfell-tower-fire-1497867220

667:"Grenfell Tower: candlelit vigil for victims after grief turned to anger at earlier protests" 258: 225: 5938: 5812: 5656: 5465: 5109: 5080: 4904: 4894: 4640: 4605:

https://stv.tv/news/politics/1401034-grenfell-msps-back-unannounced-fire-safety-inspections/

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Overview: As complex as this article is becoming, I don't think this section is of much use.

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Seconded, -many will actually agree with you & I include members of all 3 main parties.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-40631452/the-seoul-train-that-goes-to-the-border-and-back

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https://stv.tv/news/politics/1397381-firefighters-union-recommends-random-high-rise-checks/

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https://en.yabiladi.com/articles/details/55093/grenfell-tower-youngest-victim-moroccan.html

854:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/london-grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-rises-as-anger-increases/

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LFB: Total Recalls campaign victory as Government confirms database of deadly white goods

4664:

Cladding in just three out of 300 tower blocks replaced in wake of Grenfell Tower tragedy

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http://abcnews.go.com/International/massive-fire-breaks-dubai-skyscraper/story?id=49020386

1948: 1914: 1659: 1496: 1452: 1392: 1214: 1209:

Further, <<"Everyone knows it to be true" is not valid reasoning for inclusion.: -->

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Unlikely - more probable that some kind soul would correct any spelling etc failings. ;-)

206: 100: 1678: 1614: 1098:- whatever they were I have long since forgotten them and I won't be trying to find them! 277: 5131:

unreferenced paragraph in an article with over 400 references should not be a big deal.

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Direct causes: Some of this belongs in or duplicates the section on regulation failures.

327:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/london-grenfell-tower-fire-cladding-may-have-been-banned-uk/

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is a compelling read, and has lots of information which may be of use in this article.

4130:

Emergency response issues: A subsection title header for problems specific to the site.

4003: 3944: 3784:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3603: 3523: 3374: 3326: 3265: 3179: 2958: 2845: 2710: 2409: 1865: 1805: 1743:

Those sound like speculation. I think we should wait until the facts are confirmed. --

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Certainly agree. Does anyone have a coherent argument for not using the word "faulty"?

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-grenfell-tower-fire-injuries-2017-6?r=US&IR=T

362:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-grenfell-tower-fire-injuries-2017-6?r=US&IR=T

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I agree with the above, and would not that police are not treating him as a suspect.

4796:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/nov/27/grenfell-children-art-schools-tower

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The UK government has started to publish the fire test reports for various assemblies

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Residents of tower block with Grenfell type cladding told to pay for its replacement

1978: 934:

http://news.sky.com/story/wildfires-rip-through-southern-and-central-europe-10952700

367:

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/grenfell-tower-fire-58-missing-presumed-dead/

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https://www.channel4.com/news/dany-cotton-only-a-miracle-could-have-saved-grenfell

4497:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/statement-on-grenfell-tower-september-2017

2543:

council estate. This is a black hole on commons. It is very easy to upload using

1328:

Gentlemen, your comments on the 'Faulty' fridge section below would be welcome.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42813120/grenfell-firefighter-i-just-felt-broken

4489:

Sadiq Khan demands Government creates first social housing tsar after Grenfell.

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Reactions: Mostly okay but probably should go directly beneath the Fire section.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

4889:. Providing an external link to a complete list of the victims is appropriate. 4513:

Australia must ban cladding of type linked to Grenfell disaster, inquiry finds

2615: 2081: 4622: 4526: 4471: 4465: 3790:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2404:

Yes I had missed it. I have concentrated on other subsidiary articles such as

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Some names have not yet been released to the public, at the family's' request.

2690:"Jon Snow: reporting on Grenfell made me feel on wrong side of social divide" 1894:

Linked to that LFB page is a video of a plastic backed fridge catching fire:

1599:

Just the one appliance, then? Is there any source for these reports? Thanks.

437:

Please discuss at the Talk page and gain consensus before adding these names.

228:

and add my content. Just curious id it's a reason for reverting or not. 🤔 --

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iPlayer is for registered UK viewers only. Knowledge (XXG) is international.

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Fire rips through factory owned by maker of Grenfell Tower cladding panels

3170:

Street Fire, Glasgow, 1905 ,,Like Glenfell Tower a social housing disaster

3095:

Thanks for reply. Will take time to follow this up and remove if unusable.

2639:

Thanks for advice. Thought you *were* a robot. Very pleased to be wrong! :)

4507:

New boss in charge of finding homes for Grenfell families will earn £100k

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p.s. I think the first sentence was a fact, supported by reliable sources.

3168:-an article which describes the fire as spread by the wooden cladding and 2882:

OK you are twisting my arm- so I have put in a couple of short paragraphs.

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Jon Snow comments on the social divide between reporters and the residents

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more data. Which might not take long. Very fluid and well-reported event.

1211:*sigh* And therein lies the problem with Knowledge (XXG). Or one of them. 5707: 4829: 4756:

Life in the shadow of Grenfell tower- testimony from Whitstable Tower on

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https://www.newsoneplace.com/14795471701/grenfell-tower-victim-identified

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https://www.newsoneplace.com/14387061701/grenfell-tower-victim-identified

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Ya, just don't go through and try to recolour the article. The advice at

4537:

Police probe 'fraud cases and thefts' following Grenfell Tower disaster

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Some rewriting is needed, for the reasons I raised on the above thread.

1365:

Back to the cladding: Grenfell cladding '14 times combustibility limit'

694:"Grenfell Tower fire: Met Police confirm 30 dead and 12 remain critical" 5933:

Looking at pre-Grenfell coverage of the Lakanal House inquest, such as

4633:

Grenfell Tower management company hands responsibility back to council

2381:

is just that and the piece about it in this article shouldn't be long.

739:"Grenfell Tower fire: Six-month-old baby 'found dead in mother's arms'" 640: 4701:

One of last people pulled from Grenfell Tower dies seven months later

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Ya-Haddy Sisi Saye also known as Khadija Saye (Gambia, 24, 20th floor)

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Malak Belkadi (Moroccan, 8, initially rescued, later died, 20th floor)

4591:

Reality Check: Is Grenfell Tower council outspending the government?

2006:

For reference, both Akala and Lily Allen reportedly live in the area

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The cladding's plastic core would have burned "as quickly as petrol"

760:

Couple who escaped Grenfell Tower blaze lost unborn son (news.com.au)

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Farah Hamdan (Moroccan, 31, in a stairwell between the 20th and 19th)

3474:, with the likely end state as a spinoff timeline at something like 2298:

Guardian child-abuse-panel-members-say-inquiries-are-not-independent

1448:

I'm not suggesting that what's said in that para isn't valid, but.

4652:

Residents asked to foot £2m bill to replace Grenfell-like cladding

5593:

The Sun! Really, they're reporting that someone else reports that

4682:

Grenfell Tower conman Anh Nhu Nguyen jailed for family deaths lie

4688:

Cladding fitted to Grenfell Tower 'was never fire safety tested'

4141:

Fire and structural reviews: Perhaps needs better narrative flow.

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Social media doesn't vet sources, so anything on Twitter isn't a

4830:

Grenfell Tower fire: Soaring cost of high-rise fire safety (BBC)

4713:

Grenfell Tower doors 'resisted fire for half the time expected'

3503:

https://twitter.com/LondonFire/status/903260089020272641/video/1

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and a string of other references ... , open up your to-do list.

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https://www.rt.com/uk/392547-grenfell-victims-identified-police/

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List of victims and survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire tragedy

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commons:Category:Grenfell Tower - memorials and appeals on site

4627:

Grenfell Tower fire: Building safety cuts corners, says review

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Grenfell fire: 'Water in insulation may have accelerated fire'

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Grenfell_21st_floor

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/grenfell-tower-cladding-1.4181412

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2. The destroying or taking apart of an object; disassembly.

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Saber Neda, also known as Mohamed Amied Neda (57, 23rd floor)

5504:

24 Stories: of Hope for Survivors of the Grenfell Tower Fire

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Grenfell Tower fire: 'Cyanide' foam also in sheltered homes

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-42643329

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Note: available for 25 more days, i.e. until 11 July 2018.

4555:

Glasgow flats with Grenfell-type cladding to be identified

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Sajid Javid: Statement on Grenfell Tower: 5 September 2017

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and collaboratively. And submit corrections to journalists.

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for a UK Engineering firm that uses the professional term.

5730:

File:Lancaster West Estate - geograph.org.uk - 1236020.jpg

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By definition, Fake News often has unreliable references.

4615:

Grenfell Tower: Taskforce says 320 families are in hotels

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BBC: Grenfell Tower management body's contract terminated

3758:

for additional information. I made the following changes:

2011:. There was no need to repeat the word "local" though, so 1977:) 22:22, 3 August 2017 (UTC) Video with sound on Twitter: 772:

The Latest: London Fire Deadliest in UK Since 20th Century

641:"No final Grenfell Tower death toll this year, police say" 4707:

Grenfell Tower fire survivors to get final say over site

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Doesn't mean the documentary can't be used as a source.

4641:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-42524546

4603:

Grenfell: MSPs back unannounced fire safety inspections

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https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/grenfell-tower

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Grenfell Tower fire paramedic caught speeding at 116mph

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Thanks, man. I have this as number 12 on my To Do list.

2294:

I am parking three references here that will be useful.

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to support the statement that the fridge was faulty? --

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Grenfell contractor: Sprinklers would have saved tower

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Firefighters' union recommends random high rise checks

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/grenfell-tower-fire

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Please. Does anyone have current or historic photos of

2012: 786:"79 now believed to have died in London high-rise fire" 4531:

Fire staff on long-term mental health leave up by 30%

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applies to reverts of an inadvertent Americanization.

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After 11 July It won't be visible? Does that matter?

4647:

Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government

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Timeline of the Grenfell Tower fire and investigation

5146:

Which paragraph is unreferenced? Its a big article.

4715:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

4709:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43244766

4684:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43006691

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42726315

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41230521

4521:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41246630

4353:

Thanks for input. Moved this so it goes to archive.

3794:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 5746:Too much tree, not enough cladding visible sadly. 5552:BBC have a daily podcast that may be of interest. 4597:Fire chiefs call for sprinklers in all UK schools 4567:Telegraph: Management firm loses housing contract 2322:for all his hard work in monitoring this article 2082:https://en.wikipedia.org/Deconstruction_(building) 5422:Reggie Yates: Searching for Grenfell's Lost Lives 4621:Why no-one heard the Grenfell blogger's warnings 1979:https://twitter.com/ABC/status/893234385192972288 569:"Grenfell Tower: Government sends in 'taskforce'" 5496:The cause and analysis of fire at Grenfell Tower 4658:Government introduces new product safety office 4525:BBC Blog: some details of the Inquiry announced 3215:Was it a High Rise? Note the section opens with: 2189:More reorganisation and re-writing with this...? 1842:Might be that the fridge wasn't faulty, but the 1643:is more circumspect -as I propose we should be. 5297:Just in case anyone hasn't seen it there is an 4585:Nicholas Paget-Brown stands down as councillor 4470:Grenfell Tower: The 21st floor – BBC Newsnight 2314:Guardian broadening to include council response 5576:Another fire. Tower reportedly has cladding. 5492:Into the Fire: My Life as a London Firefighter 4639:Fire in Manchester city centre block of flats 4020:. Probably worthy of a subsection of its own. 3780:This message was posted before February 2018. 1443:Investigations section in need of organisation 715:Tom Kelly and Inderdeep Bains (16 June 2017). 490:Leena Belkadi (Moroccan, 6 months, 20th floor) 5160:Under the heading "fake news"; the paragraph 8: 4927:commons:Category:Grenfell Tower - after fire 4464:James MacTaggart Memorial Lecture: Jon Snow 2957:This might be a good time for me to start a 2318:I also want to use the opportunity to thank 1518: 1033:freezers, or at least on sprinkler systems? 4472:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cY_fgeeCzc 4466:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpMI3nWsrY 4124:Rehousing: Probably should go under Impact. 3907:So, you want to remove the first sentence? 5500:After the Fire: Finding words for Grenfell 4670:Firefighter Ricky Nuttall Newsnight Video 4623:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42072477 4527:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-41264197 4412:Impact - expand to cover buildings at-risk 3865:The following discussion has been closed. 3856: 3746:I have just modified one external link on 3425:Independent Review of Building Regulations 2790: 421:The following discussion has been closed. 412: 5512:Grenfell Hope: Stories from the community 5488:The Grenfell Tower Fire: An Investigation 2377:I just wanted to point out that the main 2078:It will be demolished, not deconstructed. 1531:why fridge are potentially dangerous. 5871:Thank you for your addition but did the 5418:BBC News Special: Grenfell - One Year On 4331:Agree, irrelevant, no need to cover it. 2050:https://en.wiktionary.org/deconstruction 454:Anthony Disson (British, 65, 22nd floor) 5480:Can Neoliberalism Be Saved From Itself? 4794:Schools response to grieving children 770:Associated Press (via New York Times), 559: 498:Omar Belkadi (Moroccan, 32, 20th floor) 462:Gloria Trevisan (Italy, 26, 23rd floor) 5161: 4629:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42392138# 4417:being charged huge sums for such work. 3965:The anon IP has just been blocked for 822: 818: 807: 596: 585: 466:Marco Gottardi (Italy, 26, 23rd floor) 177:Very late into the discussion but see 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 5019:article in the London Review of Books 4660:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42760756 4617:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41894673 4599:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41744582 4593:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41724262 4563:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41422255 4533:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41164996 1367:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40645205 939:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40434741 879:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357 442:Abdeslam Sebbar (aged 77, 11th floor) 7: 5426:Panorama: Grenfell: Who is to blame? 506:Mohammad Al Haj Ali (23, 14th floor) 5412:on 11 June 2018) there have been: 4175:2015 Wootton Bassett SPAD incident 2688:Ruddick, Graham (23 August 2017). 792:. Associated Press. Archived from 486:Khadija Khalloufi (52, 17th floor) 24: 5963:Grenfell Update:Written statement 5414:Before Grenfell: A Hidden History 3750:. Please take a moment to review 2614:Once or twice a while back I ran 2570:this is a useful source of images 784:Griffiths, Frank; Kirka, Danica. 555:of 1985, which killed 56 people. 526:Vincent Chiejina (60, 16th floor) 450:Ali Yawar Jafari (81, 11th floor) 203:Anna Minton on councillors' links 5955:System reform expected in autumn 5424:on 25 March 2018. There is also 5274:71,909 page views on 14.06.2018 4158:) 14:56, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 2855:carefully hedge their language. 1700:The Guardian re Grenfell in 2013 1389:compensation not getting through 446:Abufars Ibrahim (39, 23rd floor) 29: 4288:Speeding paramedic - to archive 1519:'Faulty' fridge -comment please 614:Samuel Osborne (28 June 2017). 474:Mohammad Alhajali, 23, floor ? 4982:still serve a useful purpose? 4573:BBC Newsnight: The 21st floor 4221:Review of building regulations 4018:This makes interesting reading 2043:embodied forms of expression. 220:My British English isn't good. 1: 5447:readability and maintenance. 4841:18:03, 12 December 2017 (UTC) 4812:Report into Response Failings 4807:14:38, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 4790:11:33, 19 November 2017 (UTC) 4773:11:24, 19 November 2017 (UTC) 4407:13:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC) 4237:17:45, 18 December 2017 (UTC) 4190:16:20, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 4168:14:56, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 4089:16:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 4070:14:18, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 4054:13:46, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 4030:18:29, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 4008:19:33, 17 November 2017 (UTC) 3686:18:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC) 3655:12:34, 2 September 2017 (UTC) 3608:07:12, 2 September 2017 (UTC) 3585:00:40, 2 September 2017 (UTC) 3564:00:28, 1 September 2017 (UTC) 3488:00:01, 2 September 2017 (UTC) 2686:Firstly- parking a reference. 2056:http://www.deconstructuk.com/ 719:. PressReader.com. Daily Mail 522:Sheila Smith (84, 17th floor) 478:Jessica Urbanno, 2?, floor ? 5630:Courtfield ward questionaire 4859:13:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC) 4823:18:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC) 4365:16:32, 14 January 2018 (UTC) 4341:13:23, 11 January 2018 (UTC) 4326:10:39, 11 January 2018 (UTC) 4308:01:00, 11 January 2018 (UTC) 4213:21:55, 4 December 2017 (UTC) 3979:23:07, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3953:23:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3931:23:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3917:22:57, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3903:22:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3887:22:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3848:02:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 3708:worthy of inclusion or not? 2306:Guardian fire-brigades-union 482:Isaac Paulos (5, 18th floor) 4777:Emma Dent Coad MP profile. 4750:00:58, 7 October 2017 (UTC) 4280:16:28, 9 January 2018 (UTC) 4260:03:45, 9 January 2018 (UTC) 4074:As I said, the removal was 3733:22:59, 9 October 2017 (UTC) 3718:19:33, 9 October 2017 (UTC) 3536:21:57, 31 August 2017 (UTC) 3516:20:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC) 3462:13:06, 30 August 2017 (UTC) 3445:13:01, 30 August 2017 (UTC) 3395:15:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC) 3379:10:27, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 3365:07:42, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 3353:Live Long And Prosper. :-) 3331:19:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 3309:18:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 3295:12:20, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 3270:08:11, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 3255:22:02, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 3184:21:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 3142:18:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 3107:00:47, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 3084:00:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 3062:12:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC) 3027:16:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC) 3005:15:25, 28 August 2017 (UTC) 2988:08:43, 28 August 2017 (UTC) 2973:00:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC) 2945:23:50, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2916:21:59, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2892:20:47, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2867:17:10, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2850:20:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 2829:18:41, 25 August 2017 (UTC) 2755:16:55, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 2727:08:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC) 2677:01:23, 28 August 2017 (UTC) 2653:00:22, 27 August 2017 (UTC) 2628:22:30, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2609:21:57, 26 August 2017 (UTC) 2582:05:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC) 2565:08:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC) 2534:22:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2462:20:06, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2436:19:42, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2414:Kensington Aldridge Academy 2393:18:30, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2360:17:05, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2332:07:37, 17 August 2017 (UTC) 2278:20:21, 11 August 2017 (UTC) 2250:01:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC) 2226:00:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC) 2177:17:53, 10 August 2017 (UTC) 2130:15:04, 10 August 2017 (UTC) 2115:14:57, 10 August 2017 (UTC) 2097:14:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC) 2073:14:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC) 692:May Bulman (16 June 2017). 5991: 5293:BBC documentary on Iplayer 4731:12:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC) 3811:(last update: 5 June 2024) 3743:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2206:19:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC) 2146:Re: Edit Comment. QUOTE: " 2030:11:20, 6 August 2017 (UTC) 1990:22:32, 3 August 2017 (UTC) 1957:08:26, 3 August 2017 (UTC) 1105:I think there should be a 553:Bradford City stadium fire 5976:13:54, 19 July 2018 (UTC) 5903:11:36, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 5887:21:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 5855:10:24, 13 June 2018 (UTC) 5806:06:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC) 5784:05:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC) 5770:05:22, 12 June 2018 (UTC) 5756:03:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC) 5742:20:13, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5724:20:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5702:15:35, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5649:20:00, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 5622:13:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 5606:12:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 5588:12:29, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 5567:23:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 5529:16:54, 19 June 2018 (UTC) 5474:13:40, 19 June 2018 (UTC) 5459:10:06, 19 June 2018 (UTC) 5442:12:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC) 5399:17:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5384:16:08, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5370:14:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5356:14:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5342:14:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5326:12:37, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5311:12:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC) 5299:excellent BBC documentary 5288:09:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC) 5263:06:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5118:08:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5104:06:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 5085:05:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC) 4427:19:56, 5 March 2018 (UTC) 3544:reliable secondary source 2717:until after the event? -- 1925:20:47, 28 July 2017 (UTC) 1909:03:57, 20 July 2017 (UTC) 1884:03:01, 20 July 2017 (UTC) 1870:02:17, 19 July 2017 (UTC) 1856:19:50, 18 July 2017 (UTC) 1838:14:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC) 1810:09:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC) 1792:22:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1753:20:55, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1711:21:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1691:20:47, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1668:20:41, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1653:20:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1627:19:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1609:19:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1595:19:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1570:19:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1555:19:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1507:20:32, 28 July 2017 (UTC) 1481:14:09, 28 July 2017 (UTC) 1463:12:02, 28 July 2017 (UTC) 1438:02:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC) 1423:21:50, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 1401:11:08, 19 July 2017 (UTC) 1379:01:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC) 1338:19:41, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 993:22:07, 18 July 2017 (UTC) 567:Samuel Osborne (5 July). 547:as a result of the fire. 470:Husna Begum (22, floor ?) 401:21:38, 18 July 2017 (UTC) 291:12:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC) 271:07:58, 15 July 2017 (UTC) 253:07:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC) 238:07:20, 15 July 2017 (UTC) 215:08:05, 14 July 2017 (UTC) 190:20:20, 12 July 2017 (UTC) 126:11:15, 29 June 2017 (UTC) 109:08:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC) 5947:09:05, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5926:08:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 5821:08:19, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 5728:Available on Commons as 5680:15:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 5665:14:27, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 5484:poems for Grenfell Tower 5236:18:58, 8 June 2018 (UTC) 5209:17:36, 8 June 2018 (UTC) 5185:15:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC) 5156:08:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 5141:05:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC) 5062:16:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC) 5042:20:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC) 5007:17:19, 27 May 2018 (UTC) 4992:10:11, 27 May 2018 (UTC) 4969:20:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC) 4944:09:52, 20 May 2018 (UTC) 4913:12:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC) 4899:15:34, 16 May 2018 (UTC) 4880:14:45, 16 May 2018 (UTC) 4645:DCLG from 8 Jan 2018 is 4483:Council leader heckled. 4041:this unexplained removal 3868:Please do not modify it. 3478:, would be appropriate. 3317:, I strongly agree with 3163:Death in a Lodging House 3045: 2290:Criticism of the enquiry 1673:I'm now fully expecting 1406:Dany Cotton C4 Interview 1277:07:00, 8 July 2017 (UTC) 1225:19:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1184:17:36, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1144:15:17, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1121:14:34, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1092:14:18, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1078:13:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1063:12:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC) 1043:07:46, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 1028:07:08, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 1013:10:47, 3 July 2017 (UTC) 980:13:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC) 967:19:05, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 741:. ITV News. 28 June 2017 424:Please do not modify it. 173:19:26, 5 July 2017 (UTC) 155:13:37, 2 July 2017 (UTC) 141:13:07, 2 July 2017 (UTC) 18:Talk:Grenfell Tower fire 3739:External links modified 2339:I'd also like to thank 1633:This quoting the police 1523:Attempts by myself and 5090:I'm in agreement with 4013:Sky News investigation 3893:substandard material? 3762:Replaced archive link 3161:A Google search shows 2809:19:01, 24 August 2017 1844:electricity supply was 1244: 595:Check date values in: 5835:That was followed by 5554:Tower Inquiry Podcast 5420:on 14 June 2018, and 5224:nuking this section? 4980:Timeline of reporting 4974:Timeline of reporting 2715:Lancaster West Estate 2549:Lancaster West Estate 2545:Commons upload wizard 2507:00:18, 18 August 2017 2406:Lancaster West Estate 1243: 219: 42:of past discussions. 5428:on 21 May 2018. And 5071:I'm just looking at 4921:Photos from May 2018 4865:Names of the victims 4118:Impact: Mostly okay. 4035:Removal of criticism 3860:IP Overview ranting 3792:regular verification 3470:I think an embedded 2551:and anything on the 1096:User talk:Boscaswell 226:Knowledge (XXG):BOLD 90:A sub-page? Discuss. 5873:Shirley Towers fire 5860:Shirley Towers fire 5572:Mile End tower fire 5017:This - very long - 4244:User:David Crayford 3782:After February 2018 3748:Grenfell Tower fire 1384:Parking a reference 671:The Daily Telegraph 198:Parking a reference 5714:which we can use. 5601:—SerialNumber54129 5508:The Grenfell tower 4112:Fire: Mostly okay. 3836:InternetArchiveBot 3787:InternetArchiveBot 3039:Watson Street fire 1245: 817:Unknown parameter 5516:Hurricane Katrina 5416:on 13 June 2018, 5047:Repeated repeated 4978:Does the section 4758:Silchester Estate 3991: 3990: 3950: 3812: 3260:article. Regards 2808: 2795:comment added by 2553:Silchester Estate 2266:Thanks, David! 2028: 1962:New fire in Dubai 1693: 1542:Res ipsa loquitur 1146: 956: 955: 696:. The Independent 510:Rabeya Begum (64) 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5982: 5973: 5884: 5870: 5619: 5603: 5585: 5564: 5456: 5406:memorial service 5339: 5285: 5233: 5206: 5183: 5174: 5170: 5040: 5031: 5027: 4728: 4445:Government docs 4395: 4391:Infobox building 4389: 4375:Infobox building 4362: 4305: 4277: 4234: 3948: 3870: 3857: 3846: 3837: 3810: 3809: 3788: 3652: 3582: 3533: 3528: 3513: 3496:Video on twitter 3459: 3442: 3392: 3362: 3345: 3292: 3280: 3252: 3214: 3156: 3139: 3125: 3104: 3094: 3073: 3059: 3015: 3002: 2970: 2956: 2926: 2913: 2903: 2864: 2839: 2818: 2773: 2752: 2741: 2713:, or indeed The 2704: 2702: 2700: 2674: 2650: 2638: 2606: 2505: 2495: 2488: 2459: 2454: 2446: 2425: 2419: 2403: 2390: 2385: 2376: 2357: 2352: 2346: 2275: 2270: 2247: 2223: 2203: 2198: 2023: 2019: 2005: 1922: 1917: 1672: 1641:Telegraph report 1593: 1584: 1580: 1504: 1499: 1460: 1455: 1222: 1217: 1130:of that (... or 1125: 1060: 1055: 831: 830: 824: 820: 815: 813: 805: 803: 801: 781: 775: 768: 762: 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1283: 1282: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1269:David Crayford 1238: 1237: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1233: 1232: 1231: 1230: 1229: 1228: 1227: 1212: 1207: 1193: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1188: 1187: 1186: 1176:David Crayford 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1147: 1136:Martinevans123 1113:David Crayford 1108:Public Inquiry 1100: 1099: 1084:Martinevans123 1080: 1048: 1047: 1046: 1045: 1035:Martinevans123 1005:Martinevans123 999: 996: 954: 953: 952: 951: 946: 941: 936: 931: 926: 921: 916: 911: 906: 901: 896: 891: 886: 881: 876: 871: 866: 861: 856: 851: 846: 841: 833: 832: 776: 774:, 19 June 2017 763: 752: 730: 707: 684: 673:. 17 June 2017 658: 647:. 28 June 2017 632: 606: 558: 557: 536: 535: 531: 530: 527: 524: 523: 520: 519: 516: 515: 512: 511: 508: 507: 504: 503: 500: 499: 496: 495: 492: 491: 488: 487: 484: 483: 480: 479: 476: 475: 472: 471: 468: 467: 464: 463: 460: 459: 456: 455: 452: 451: 448: 447: 444: 443: 439: 438: 428: 427: 418: 417: 410: 407: 405: 390: 389: 384: 379: 374: 369: 364: 359: 354: 349: 344: 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5000: 4996: 4995: 4994: 4993: 4989: 4985: 4981: 4973: 4971: 4970: 4966: 4962: 4961:John Cummings 4956: 4953: 4952: 4948: 4946: 4945: 4941: 4937: 4932: 4928: 4920: 4914: 4910: 4906: 4902: 4901: 4900: 4896: 4892: 4888: 4887:memorial site 4885:This isn't a 4884: 4883: 4882: 4881: 4877: 4873: 4864: 4860: 4856: 4852: 4849: 4846: 4845: 4842: 4838: 4834: 4831: 4828: 4827: 4824: 4820: 4816: 4813: 4810: 4808: 4804: 4800: 4797: 4793: 4791: 4787: 4783: 4780: 4776: 4774: 4770: 4766: 4763: 4759: 4755: 4754: 4751: 4747: 4743: 4739: 4735: 4734: 4733: 4732: 4729: 4724: 4723: 4716: 4712: 4710: 4706: 4704: 4700: 4699: 4698: 4697: 4691: 4687: 4685: 4681: 4679: 4675: 4673: 4669: 4667: 4663: 4661: 4657: 4655: 4651: 4648: 4644: 4642: 4638: 4636: 4632: 4630: 4626: 4624: 4620: 4618: 4614: 4612: 4608: 4606: 4602: 4600: 4596: 4594: 4590: 4588: 4584: 4582: 4578: 4576: 4572: 4570: 4566: 4564: 4560: 4558: 4554: 4552: 4548: 4546: 4542: 4540: 4536: 4534: 4530: 4528: 4524: 4522: 4518: 4516: 4512: 4510: 4506: 4504: 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