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you like. But as I noted, both the Alaska Native
Language Center and Yukon Native Language Centre use a regular apostrophe for Gwich'in (i.e., U+0027). I agree that this is not necessarily pretty (yes, it's a typewriter character). But it is empowering for Gwich'in people to be able to type easily (as on a typewriter) rather than having to look for characters in the upper code pages. Again, I would emphasize that this issue goes way beyond just the name Gwich'in. Ejective consants appear all over the Athbaskan/Dene world, and if we want to add in more language information, we will need to tediously add in the U+02BC charcter in many places in order to be consistent. Moreoever, I have checked these pages with the U+02BC from a number of computer in couple locations in Alaska, and I can report that in many cases the character does not display properly or does not display at all. Yes, it's true. Many people are still using browsers which do not support unicode. It would indeed be ironic if our quest for correct characters were to end up disenfranchising the very people whose language we are representing here. --
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the difference “in the mind of the reader” between the dumb quote and the curly apostrophe is tenuous at best. Even in Jéioosh’s comment above, the word “printer’s” is using the curly apostrophe when not quotation punctuation. It is unrealistic to expect people to differentiate between one kind of apostrophe in
English and another in Tlingit when they see them as variations of the same thing, especially in bilingual text. I fully agree that, for languages which use the curly apostrophe, there can be some confusion with closing single quotes – which in North American usage are rare anyway. In any case, we survive in English with sentences like “That car is my parents’” (Double quote style) or ‘That car is my parents’’ (Single quote style). Why not use «Guillemets»?
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Southern
Tutchone (Yukon), Tagish (Yukon), Kaska (Yukon, B.C.), Sekeni (B.C.), Chipewyan (NWT and Alta), South Slavey (Alta), and I guess, most importantly, Gwich’in (NWT). The decision to go with U+2019 was based on personal discussion with elders and language teachers. In virtually all cases, there was no awareness that there was an issue, but once explained that there was a choice, the curly apostrophe was preferred.
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1149:, it also renders correctly in Opera and Firefox, but not in Explorer. As much as I and other hate Microsoft, we have to recognize that the vast majority of people use Explorer and that we are doing Knowledge a disservice by using a character it doesn't render. Further discussion would be appreciated. Note that I am not arguing that the character is incorrect, but that it may confuse many readers.
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want to do a minimal amount of browser configuration. Actually, they don't want to do any configuration. There are many cool cutting-edge implementations which we can make work, but these implementations run the risk of disenfranchising other users. I think the use the U+02BC character is a case in point. But there are other reasons to favor a plain old apostrophe as well.
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995:) - The Talk page has already had discussion of the correct character to use for the apostrophe in this article name. It should be U+2019 the punctuation apostrophe, not the one the article currently uses. I can't move this because there is already a redirect page which prevents it. This should be a speedy move, as we already have consensus to do so
788:. This publication contains pages which show all the orthographies for the Alaskan languages. In all cases (Ahtna, Deg Hit’an, Han, Holikachuk, Koyukon, Gwich’in, Tanacross, Tanaina, Tanana, Upper Kuskokwim, Upper Tanana) the curly apostrophe is used. These pages were scanned and added to the Alaska Native Language Center’s website
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Right now, for the Gwich'in (sorry Gwichʼin) article, I get the box instead of an apostrophe in the browser title bar in Opera, Firefox and MS Internet
Explorer. The Knowledge title and text renders correctly in Opera and Firefox, but I get the "box" in Explorer (Version 6.0 with SP2) giving the user
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This isn’t really an issue for Dene languages. There are many other non-English characters in their orthographies which require special keyboard layouts (or searching through character maps) to access. The ł letter is a good example, common to all Dene languages. Other languages, such as Hän, require
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natural orthography. either the MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE is used or the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK is. Which one differs depending on language. I propose we bring Chris Harvey in on this discussion. What you find on a tribe's website may not be best practice, either, but only evidence of some HTML
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I think that these sources make it pretty clear that there is certainly a tradition for using the curly apostrophe in Dene languages. For better or for worse, the dumb quote and curly apostrophe have been, for practical “real world” purposes, essentially interchangeable, as they are in
English. Thus
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consonants across the
Athbaskan/Dene world. Using U+02BC in the Gwich'in is thus potentially confusing for users comparing across different Athabaskan (and other) languages. It also puts a heavy burden on those (including myself) who would like to be able to enrich Athbaskan articles with samples of
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Please see
Conclusion c) above for discussion on how U+0027 is not a stable character. At some point in the life of a document on its way to publication, there is a good chance that all U+0027s will be changed into curly quotes (left or right depending on word spacing). I think we might agree that
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It would be great to hear from someone like Chris Harvey. He might also be able to supply some references for some of these best practice recommendations. Still, we would need to consider whether to follow best practice or accepted current practice. I showed this to some Gwich'in people today, and
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I have encountered similar problems, and also found workarounds, as pointed out by
Evertype. However, my experience has been that most users will not go to this extra effort. I have been working with computer users in rural Alaska for about 10 years now, and my experience has been that most people
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Sorry, my bad. I meant to say U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE. While I appreciate Chris' work, wouldn't it be better to consult more official sources. There are many official language bodies for Gwich'in and Dene/Athabaskan across NTW, Yukon, BC, and Alaska. I would be happy to research this, if
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I have spoken to the Gwich'ins on this matter (full disclaimer, the conversation was with the Gwich'ins in
Northwest Territories and may not represent the views of Alaskan Gwich'ins or Yukon Gwich'ins). While they appreciate the nuisance around using the U+02BC "right" apostrophe, they understand
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b) That said, we are left with either U+0027~U+2019. At the moment, many language communities and language/education organisations in Canada and the US will be implementing (or have implemented) keyboard technology which uses U+2019. For our discussion, some of the most relevant are: Hän (Yukon),
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Neither U+0027 APOSTROPHE and U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK should be used for Gwichʼin, as they are punctuation characters. As noted above, I take my source for the use of U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE from Chris Harvey's web site. Chris works with aboriginal communities in Canada and I
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If the display font is set to something other than
Helvetica or Arial I get an unpleasant full-width glyph for this character which makes it appear to be two words. I’m not sure what font is contributing this, but I’m running on Mac OS X 10.4. I have no idea what sort of CSS hacks I’d need to fix
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I agree that U+2019 is better than U+02BC. But in my Tlingit work I differentiate between U+0027 and U+2019. The former is the orthographic apostrophe used for ejectives, and the latter is the “printer’s” apostrophe used for quotation, etc. People rarely notice the difference in use, however. —
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c) The dumb quote isn’t stable in the sense that word-processors are set to “curly quotes” by default. The effects of this can be seen in languages — like Carrier — where the glottal stop is written word initially. If the typist is inputting the U+0027 apostrophe, a word like /ʔink’ez/ ends up
1226:: Name for the aboriginal hunter-gatherer cultures of northern Canada south of Inuit territory. This name is taken from the Wood Cree language. It was introduced by anthropologists. It is rarely used by Gwich’in elders on the Canadian side, but is more common among people on the Alaskan side.
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is a "special character". I would be OK with using whatever character, as long as it is correctly rendered by all browsers under all operating systems "out of the box", without the individual having to download fonts or do anything to get special characters. Otherwise they get faced with a
1202:: Common name now applied to all the groups of the Gwich’in taken together. It became popular during the land claims negotiations. In the Gwich’in language itself, this word can only be used in combination with a term describing a region or area where a person, or a group of people live.
659:. Again, I empathise with the unicode question for correct character semantics, but I worry more about the end result in a reference document such as Wiki. And (sorry to beat a nearly dead horse) what about all the other apostrophes in other Athabaskan languages, such as
1208:: This name was introduced by fur traders and missionaries. It was applied to those regional groups, mainly on the Canadian side, who had contact with missionaries after the 1860s. This name is still used by some elders, and also by speakers of other Dene languages.
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I thus recommend returning to plain apostrophe, perhaps including an orthographic note regarding the unicode character. If this is not acceptable, an alternative proposal would be to split the article into two, one for NWT Gwich'in and one for the rest of Gwich'in.
557:. Chris works with aboriginal communities in Canada and I accept his judgement on orthography. I don't use U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK for Gwichʼin, though it is certainly preferable to U+0027 APOSTROPHE, which is a typewriter character.
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The Alaska Native Language Center and other language bodies in the region, in their publications, very often use the curly apostrophe. The same goes for languages in Yukon Territory. For publications which use the curly apostrophe, see
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and in my post above, it's not just the font rendering issue which is a problem. We can optimistically hope that these rendering issues will evenutally be sorted out. The larger issue is one of consistency across other Gwich'in and
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articles use a different kind of apostrophe. If they look the same look at the URL bar of your browser, they will encoded to URL safe characters which are quite different. Should these two articles use the same apostrophe for both?
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That's not a bad idea. I'm in favor of using the ' apostrophe in Native languages because it is harder to confuse with the ‘ and ’ quotation marks. On Knowledge there are some problems with markup, but I've used it successfully in
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Perhaps after 14 years we could open the apostrophe discussion. The support for U+02BC is now more widespread, as are keyboards with the right letter. There are different technical issues about this, but one of them is described
1220:: This is a Slavey word used to refer to all the aboriginal cultures of the Northwest Territories except the Inuit and Metis. Translating into English as, “the people,” it was important during the recent political struggles.
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Athabaskan language data. To convert from U+0027 to U+02BC is tricky, since the apostrophe is used for many things, not all of which can be represented by U+02BC. So these conversions must usually be done by hand, tediously.
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I’d like to apologise now for not keeping all of my website pages up to date. In fact, the Gwich’in keyboards from languagegeek.com use U+2019 for the apostrophe (for reasons why, see below). I’ve now updated those pages.
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The apostrophe occurs not only in the logonym, but throughout the language to indicate ejectives and glottal stops. Thus the U+2019 will create problems when we expand page to include additional Gwich'in texts and links to
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We should be able to use the correct character in the article name, shouldn't we? We can create redirects so that anybody typing with simpler characters will still be able to link to the article without any extra effort.
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Do they call themselves Dene or Dine? It doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the article. I thought all Athabascans of the Artic Circle region used that term to refer to themselves, translating as "human beings."
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U+02BC. Also, there are many English language materials which contain Gwich’in (and other languages). It is unreasonable to expect people to distinguish between the English apostrophe U+2019 and a Gwich’in apostrophe
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The Gwich'in have had a new (female) grand chief for some time and the image of Clarence Alexander is quite outdated. The current Grand Chief is Bobbie Jo Greenland Morgan, who should be appropriately recognized.
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I'm using Safari and have Times set as the display font, but in my Knowledge settings I'm using the MonoBook skin, and Knowledge text seems to be displayed in Lucida Grande. No problems with Lucida.
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a) U+02BC is not a good choice because most Native language material contains English/French words, sentences, and paragraphs. In English and French, the apostrophe in words like “can’t” is
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accept his judgement on orthography. I don't use U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK for Gwichʼin, though it is certainly preferable to U+0027 APOSTROPHE, which is a typewriter character
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Neither U+0027 APOSTROPHE and U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK should be used for Gwichʼin, as they are punctuation characters. As noted above, I take my source for the use of
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I thus recommend that we return to the use of U+0027 is the word Gwich'in and in other references to ejective consonants in Athabaskan languages. What do you think? --
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While I support correct typography in principle and I had been convinced by the discussion above, I am concerned with Knowledge's usability by the general public. The
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http://web.archive.org/web/20150911072330/http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1828&dat=19880618&id=QD0eAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fMAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1044,831391
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I’d like to thank Evertype for inviting me to this discussion. First, I would like to make a few comments about what has been written in this discussion already.
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But it is empowering for Gwich'in people to be able to type easily (as on a typewriter) rather than having to look for characters in the upper code pages.
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There is a problem here. U+0027 APOSTROPHE and U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK are punctuation marks, and neither is the real Gwichʼin character. The
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1214:: This is the traditional name used to refer to all of the Gwich’in taken together—without referring to the regions where the different groups lived.
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such combinations as ą̈̂. There is really nothing more convenient, from a text input perspective, between the dumb quote and the curly apostrophe.
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Several years late to this conversation. I will be heading up to Gwich'in territory this winter and can ask them which is more preferred.
472:). For the article titles, we have to choose between U+0027 and U+2019, however, and we should use the same character for both articles.
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Internet Explorer is unable to render the old title properly, and displays an open/empty box in place of the symbol in question.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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that the pragmatic approach and ease of using the regular apostrophe when it comes to typing on a computer keyboard.
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Based on all this, I would suggest using U+2019 for the Athapaskan apostrophe. - Friday, July 14, 2006 Chris Harvey
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Technically, it may be better with the new symbol due to IE's horrible default state of not rendering the symbol.
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Standards bodies such as Alaska Native Language Center and Yukon Native Language Center use plain old apostrophe.
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Standards bodies such as Alaska Native Language Center and Yukon Native Language Center use plain old apostrophe.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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page? Will we have to change all of these, or does this issue apply only to Gwich'in? I fear we may be opening
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It will create many problems for users of the orthography, thereby oppressing an already endangered language.
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Firefox seems incapable of using a copy and paste operation to copy the new symbol (’) into its address bar.
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which is clearly wrong. If the typist is inputting the U+2019 apostrophe, the word is correctly displayed
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Sorry to join this discussion so late. I think the U+2019 idea is not so helpful, for several reasons,
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suggests not using special characters in article titles. I am not sure whether using the "letter"
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Tatl’ahwt’aenn nenn’ = The headwaters people's country : narratives of the Upper Ahtna Athabaskans
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Shall I make the change? Let's test it with the language article, since fewer things link to it.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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We are left with three choices for the glottal/ejective: U+2019, U+02BC, and U+0027.
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per nom. Doesn't meet Speedy, though. Why do people do things like this, anyway? --
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followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with
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entries. The plain old apostrophe (U+0027) is the standard way of indicating
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Gwichya Gwich’in Googwandak: The History and Stories of the Gwichya Gwich’in
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mysterious box which gives them no clue what the character should look like.
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made, with redirects. Everyone happy? If so, I'll do this article as well.
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no clue as to what the character should be. Going back to the revision by
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This may be OS specific, as I have no problem with it on Mac OS X. —
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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is a Navajo word, each meaning “person”. The Gwich’in cognate is
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal.
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And perhaps most importantly for our discussion, Thompson 1984.
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The apostrophe is consistent with other Athabaskan languages.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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Athabskan languages and the schools: a handbook for teachers
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Mid-importance Indigenous peoples of North America articles
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character to use is U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE (see
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Knowledge:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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1365:have permission
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1258:It's all good
1174:
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1129:manual of style
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366:Low-importance
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1427:— Preceding
1423:
1420:Change image
1400:
1375:source check
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1283:
1260:— Preceding
1257:
1243:Languagegeek
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896:Languagegeek
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51:WikiProjects
1495:OhanaUnited
1479:OhanaUnited
1342:Sourcecheck
1212:Dinjii Zhuh
1151:Luigizanasi
848:Conclusions
1514:Categories
1266:76.9.57.99
1224:Athapaskan
1133:apostrophe
1116:Kevin_b_er
1074:Discussion
1065:Thumbelina
1023:as above.
765:0933769016
752:1555000541
739:1555000002
661:Deg Hit'an
500:Change to
427:Apostrophe
211:U.S. state
1395:this tool
1388:this tool
1179:Badagnani
970:Wknight94
904:I agree.
669:Tanacross
665:Tsuut’ina
657:Gwich 'in
1429:unsigned
1401:Cheers.—
1299:cbignore
1289:Gwich'in
1262:unsigned
1206:Loucheux
1200:Gwich’in
1037:Dhartung
1025:Evertype
906:Evertype
647:Evertype
621:ejective
599:Evertype
559:Evertype
506:Evertype
493:Evertype
484:Qutezuce
474:Evertype
442:Qutezuce
437:Gwich'in
1411::Online
1328:checked
1293:my edit
1100:Jéioosh
1053:Jéioosh
1049:Support
1033:Support
1021:Support
1007:Support
920:Jéioosh
884:’ink’ez
880:‘ink’ez
866:U+02BC.
677:Gholton
629:Gholton
589:Jéioosh
569:Gholton
542:Gholton
466:correct
457:Jéioosh
368:on the
253:on the
142:on the
41:C-class
1336:failed
1307:nobots
1239:Dinjii
1086:Notes:
1061:Oppose
1011:Oppose
999:Survey
528:texts.
341:Canada
332:Canada
278:Canada
226:Alaska
216:Alaska
167:Alaska
47:scale.
1005:Add *
638:never
553:from
287:Yukon
1456:. -
1454:here
1437:talk
1332:true
1270:talk
1247:talk
1235:Diné
1231:Dene
1218:Dene
1172:Dene
1041:Talk
1015:~~~~
1009:or *
974:talk
968:. —
966:Move
762:ISBN
749:ISBN
736:ISBN
675:. --
663:and
582:Font
435:and
431:The
1369:RfC
1346:).
1334:or
1319:to
863:not
642:any
360:Low
245:Mid
213:of
134:Mid
1516::
1439:)
1382:.
1377:}}
1373:{{
1344:}}
1340:{{
1305:{{
1301:}}
1297:{{
1272:)
1249:)
1241:.
1193:.
1039:|
991:→
976:)
540:--
285:/
281::
100:,
1474::
1470:@
1461:·
1435:(
1397:.
1390:.
1268:(
1245:(
972:(
886:.
412:.
392:.
372:.
257:.
146:.
53::
20:)
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