Talk:Downfall (2004 film)/Archive 1

2090:. "At the end of Downfall, two of its characters, Hitler's private secretary Traudl Junge and the young Hitler youth Peter ride (on a bicycle) into the sunset. They are innocent, the film suggests, and, with the Nazi regime in tatters, they are ready to build a new Germany. This, too, is not a new view of history, but one that once had much currency in the postwar Germanies, where the downfall of the Hitler regime was equated with a new and unencumbered beginning Rather than depicting Traudl Junge as an innocent and, literally, wide-eyed German, the film could have made much of the life of the real Traudl Junge. She actually appears at the very end of the film; her reflections on her own involvement are infinitely more interesting than anything Downfall's recreation of the last days in the bunker has to offer. But we learn nothing about why she chose to work for Hitler, and what she thought when she became privy to his thoughts and deeds." 2204:

from a secondary source. And even eyewitnesses can see the same thing and not state the same facts as to events. So one must first look at what is stated; then look at the source or sources (and many newspaper articles are weak sources and have hearsay problems); then look at the CONTEXT and cross check things, if possible. The fact is not all sources are "reliable" nor NPOV, as you know. And when dealing with a film, usually even more "liberties" are taken for drama, artistic effects and time constraints of a film. Further, I am not saying that minority views should be excluded, either. In the end, truth in history, historical or biographical matters are generally a matter of consensus (and certainly Knowledge is a matter of consensus). I believe we can agree on that, I trust.

2132:

And membership in "Nazi organisations" could mean something like being a member of the female branches of the Hitler Youth (HJ), such as: (BDM) – "League of German Girls" or "BDM Belief and Beauty Society" (the branch of the "League of German Girls" began in January 1938 and open to girls age 17 to 21). One must also remember that membership was mandatory, in later years. As for "riding (off) into the sunset", the film also does not show, nor tell that Christian, Krüger, Manziarly and Junge were raped by soldiers of the Red Army. Should not that have been shown or told, as well for more realism; I am sure the director would say, again this is a dramatization, not a documentary or bio film.

1382:, the poison used was prussic acid and it was a superlative poison. Note that Kershaw discounts the notion that Hitler took acid and then shot himself because the speed of the poison would have hampered his ability to hold the gun, although we never do see Hitler actually take poison in the film. Additionally, Kershaw states that contrary to some accounts nobody actually heard the gunshot. However the scene in the room after Hitler's body is removed-specifically the position of the blood and the gun-I am proud to say is exactly as Kershaw describes it. Hitler was sitting on Eva’s left and had bled through his right temple, and his gun was lying on the floor. ( 2462:

army depicted, that are rarely publicized. I intend to create a section that will describe different types of uniforms worn by these units and also create links to pages that give a testimony of the unit itself. I will also add a section that discusses the relation of several characters commiting suicide. I will also add to the plot several scenes in the film that are not discussed on the page. There is also a serious question attached to a film such as this; that question is authenticity. Anyone that follows history would like to know how accurate this film is. I will provide a section that takes a specific testimony and examine its authenticity.

606:

people who was hopelessly out of touch with reality. I imagine the film's title, on the lines of 'American Psycho', might not necessarily be about the environment around the man, but of his slowly crumbling mental state and delusions of grandeur before the reality check finally kicks in. The acts of murder and suicide were shocking acts of brutal loyalty, and arguably, immeasurable stupidity. Overall, I was familiar with the subject matter but simply blown away its interpretation in the remarkable performanc by Bruno Ganz. It is sad that such a role will never win strong support for an actor who portrayed one of the most hated men in history.

364:— to depict Hitler as anything but an evil madman, this uniqueness is not in itself controversy. Still, I have found some comments by critics who felt the film too "sympathetic" to Hitler, while others felt the film depicted Hitler and his clique not as monsters but as human beings, albeit despicable ones. (My own POV fits into the latter group; though the film moved me to feel pity for Hitler, I left the theater detesting him, his ideology, and his actions as much as I did when I entered.) I'll try to incorporate some of the critical viewpoints in an addition to the article shortly. — 580:

Reich, but was the focus for a spontaneous uprising by many of the German people, fueled by racism, xenophobia, grandiosity and fear. He was skilled in the ways he exploited that feeling, and surrounded himself by gifted strategists and propagandists, but he was not a great man, simply one armed by fate to unleash unimaginable evil. It is useful to reflect that racism, xenophobia, grandiosity and fear are still with us, and the defeat of one of their manifestations does not inoculate us against others.

31: 170:--a much harder call, because most people known the English title as "Remembrance of Things Past". I just now did a Wiki search for "Downfall" and found the film way down the list at 30 percent relevancy! Most people search for this article in an English-language Wiki will have the English-language version of the film in mind, and will be searching for Downfall, not Untergang, esp now that it is available in DVD format. -- 2079:; "It's Junge who remains the audience's entree into the inner circles of absolute power, as well as being the main avenue for understanding Hitler's powerful allure with ordinary Germans... played with a nice blend of star-struck innocence and fresh-faced shyness by Alexandra Maria Lara ("The Tunnel," "Naked"), that sets her apart from the rest of the monomaniacal or conflicted characters." 1340:. Far from making an unsolicited confession, on this occasion it was Hitler who angrily attacked him with Martin Bormann’s evidence of Speer’s disloyalty in not carrying out the scorched earth policy. Speer’s reaction was to unequivocally stand by Hitler and promise to carry out the orders, though in the Spandau draft he wrote that he had no intention of doing so (Sereny, pp.497-8). 1331:(pp 529-531), author Gitta Sereny reports that it never took place. She quotes Speer’s “Spandau draft” (manuscripts smuggled out) in which he says: “There can be no question of a touching scene or, even more than that, of a confession such as the Frenchman reported”. However in Speer’s later writings such as the published version of 2077: 2525:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to comment, but I found the detailed plot description very helpful. I watched the film for the first time yesterday, and had a hard time differentiating the characters; this page was incredibly helpful and although there is a tag at the top that says the plot

2413:

Didn't they really make a version of the famous "angry Hitler" scene? In Iron Sky the female president of the U.S. receives bad news from some employees, asks those of lowest rank to leave her office, then with a shaking hand removes her glasses and starts some angry rant and cursing at the remaining

2165:

And if you note, NPOV issues was one of my main points. I was not arguing irrelevancy, but you can't say it "doesn't really matter if its a documentary or fiction". Of course it does as that is partly how one judges (context) what the writers and director are driving at as far as characters, realism,

2131:

Well, I would disagree as to including some of it. Some of what is in the "thread" above is just POV; newpaper cited opinion articles. Further, one must remember the film is a dramatization not a documentary. Junge is the protagonist device through whom the story is mainly told; from her perspective.

1435:

This line I feel is rather POV and needs a citation. I agree with the section where it mentions that no other groups were mentioned, but the "director only looked for a job in Hollywood". Well thats a bit slanted. First off the film was primarily for a continental audience otherwise it's likely it

1368:

Upon watching the film I'm curious what kind of poison was meant in the film when the doctor stated it caused death in 1 - 2 seconds. I thought it was cyanide, but to my knowledge it wouldn't take effect nearly that quick. Anyone know and want to add some info to the article? It would also be nice to

1254:

Traudl Junge was not as is shown in the movie 'Der Untergang', saved by a boy by walking with him through Russian lines, but was imprisoned and raped many times (as were many other German women by Russian soldiers) and was for several months the 'personal prisoner' of a high-ranking officer in Soviet

1130:

I agree. I think whoever wrote the plot synopsis probably doesn't speak English as a first language. I'd love to rewrite the whole section, and I've seen the film, but it's a huge undertaking; I'd need to watch the film a few more times, I think. And if my editing of this article in the past has lead

635:

In the synopsis section "desperately ordering counterattacks that will never happen, from armies that exist only on maps, commanded by men who are most likely dead" is written. I believe that there is no suggestion in the film that any of the commanding generals are dead. I will change this if no one

579:

What I also felt, however, was the reality of the Nazi sickness, which has been distanced and diluted by so many movies with so many Nazi villains that it has become more like a plot device than a reality. As we regard this broken and pathetic Hitler, we realize that he did not alone create the Third

3204:

Some time ago the meme was also used after Square Enix decided to ban a number of Final Fantasy 11 players on all of the servers for using exploits. It wasn't just a few, it was a substantial number including some of the better known players out of all the servers. The subtitles were replaced with a

2233:

Yes, something along those lines. I didn't exhaust the available sources by any means. There are scholarly articles on this topic, but I'm not shelling out $ 30 a piece to check what they have to say about Junge's depiction! I found a book that refers to it though, it says how showing the viewer the

2086:

John Harris on Newsnight Review said "Then there are the innocents caught in the midst of it all - I don't think Traudl Junge, the secretarial character, by her own admission, was quite as innocent as she made out but nonetheless she is there showing the distorting effects on simple humanity of this

2006:

The protagonist of the movie was Traudl Junge, played by Alexandra Maria Lara. The tall, doe-eyed Lara stands as the moral center while around her everything goes to pieces. She is positively radiant in the role, from start to finish. Not a smidgen of Nazi depravity adheres to her. I was sickened by

914:

and I have to admit that I even didn't know that Ganz is a Swiss before I read this discussion. Of course it was some kind of a taboo before, but it is not more or less a taboo, because a not German but German-speaking person plays the role of Hitler. There would had been no different, when a German

620:

This is an article about a movie, and I'm afraid the controversy somehow overshadowed the movie itself. I know a Knowledge article is not a fan page, but I think someone should find a way to nevertheless give the devil his due; i.e: Bruno Ganz (an actor unknown to me) did an astounding job as Hitler

2490:

JMHENDER-additions are fine as long as they are not too lengthy and on topic. There are, for example, already several pages as to German uniforms and units. One doesn't need to go into a lot of detail in those areas; a mention and Wiki link to main articles on those subjects will do. Also, as noted

1753:

I however found something that really bothers me, I found that on certain movie placards, those showing Hitler and he's Natzi friend outside the bunker a.k.a. "The last picture of Adolf Hitler Alive" are completely photoshoped :O I mean completely. They lowered Hitlers head and moved hes hands from

448:

One thing I think the article could use is a bit more detailed plot summary (with appropriate spoiler warning). Also, the articles referring to the debate in Germany on the film were roughly contemporaneous with its release, and I would be interested for any references to how the debate has shaken

3385:

I have some doubts about the historical accuracy of this film. First of all, all those Russian soldiers just dancing and staring at the Germans seems unlikely. What about executions on the spot, rapes, robberies....? Hitler's bunker is depicted as a place where the officers and guards are openly

2461:

I do not want to change anything on the Knowledge page. I want to add several sections that will give the reader a more detailed description of specific things in the film, all the while adhering to Knowledge’s standards. This film is unique in the sense that there are several units of the German

2390:

The original meme, the one that started it all, was "Sim Heil: Der Untersim" in August 2006, a full year before the XBL parody. In this video, Hitler is furious at the numerous bugs and poor performances of Flight Simulator X, and threatens to switch to X-Plane. The file was incidentally the first

2341:

In the scene where Dr Schenk and his adjutant come across some "deserters" being shot. They are described in the article as German Military Police. In the script, you can hear Schenks adjutant call them "Greifkommando" which was a more ad hoc group that only formed after military discipline and

2304:

Interesting finds. It goes to what I was saying earlier above that she is a protagonist device through whom the story is mainly told and this is a (historical) dramatization. I did add your suggestion, Fences, as to pointing out the narrative was from her perspective. That was a good point to add.

2203:

You are making assumptions. The problem is the process and dissemination of what is being said or claimed. In the study and/or writing about history, historical or biographical matters (including historical dramas) it can be similar; unless the writer was there then it is always information coming

1208:

Again, which of you people is going to hold the knife and make the cut? The only votes in favour of keeping the synopsis - which is overlong sixth-form drivel, I imagine the writer was typing with his right hand whilst jerking off with his left hand - are anonymous IP addresses, whose opinions are

1189:

The long synopsis was most helpful. I have the German DVD with Dutch subtitles and I don't speak German or Dutch. Indeed several scenes were missing from the synopsis and I can only guess what is happening. I can assure you not every 5 minutes has been summarised! Could somebody rewrite it in even

389:

Congrats on your edits - great job! I spent quite some time in Germany and came to realize that the conventional explanation and portrayal of Hitler quite likely out of synch with historical reality. I'm glad this move was made while a few eye witnesses were still alive. It helps one to understand

3102:

If you think you can write it in one sentence, that would be great. It would be better than not including it at all. Since you haven't seen the parodies, I think you may be unaware of their impact. Perhaps in the future there will be consensus in favor of a separate article, but I certainly won't

2262:

This source argues that the film shouldn't be criticised for showing the film from the limited perspective of those in the bunker, including Junge, as the aim is precisely to show their "claustrophobic viewpoint" and to question the reliability of eyewitnesses, as is confirmed when the real Junge

1946:

A CBS report says that some recently loaded parodies have Adolf screaming about being removed from Youtube, while conversely, in a clip featured on ifmagazine.com, the frustrated uniorchidate apparently rants about the news that the Downfall meme will never die. As this has made news, perhaps the

3232:

There is too much space given to parodies which is not something that adds to an encyclopedia article such as this one. I believe they should be mentioned in a few lines, only. However, if they must be kept, then state a smaller sample of the most famous of them. A last option is to have another

605:

I watched this film recently and was startled to find myself fascinated by the multi-faceted interpretations of what Hitler meant to his followers. For some, fanatacism, for others, blind faith that he was some kind of ultimate being - "But he is the Fuhrer!", for yet others, just a leader of a

216:

IMDB policy is different from Knowledge's. They always use the original name of a film. Knowledge's policy is to use the name something is most known by speakers of English. If "De Ondergang" was the name in England and Australia, then there would be a good case for leaving it be, but I don't

2218:

With the above said, I would suggest something like this (with proper cites added, which I don't have at present): The portrayal of secretary Traudl Junge (the protagonist in the film), has also been criticized by some for the innocent, naive young woman we see in the film.(cite) As John Harris

1335:

he himself repeats the confession version. Either he had forgotten it was made up, or perhaps he thought the false story would help rehabilitate his reputation in post-war Germany. Speer’s last meeting with Hitler was on April 24 1945, and according to pp491-2 of Sereny’s book, the last time he

1087:

Holy shite the "Plot" section is overkill. Why is it necessary to have a complete play-by-play of the entire movie? Absolutely ridiculous. I admire the dedication of someone typing that up so I'm not deleting it for that reason... but seriously, it's just way too much. There's just no reason to

2884:

There is no mention of this quote from the film, and I am struggling to find other sources from reviewing other pages regarding the death of Adolf Hitler or his final days. If I remember correctly, it is either said at the dinner table when Hitler is informed of Himmler attempting to negotiate

2433:

I will be making several additions to this film page, as part of a project that I am doing for my English class. I encourage any crticism and critiques by any user of Knowledge. My goal is to provide a neutral and accurate portrayal of the film Der Untergang A.K.A.(The Downfall). Please do not

2601:

A few journalists in wondered aloud whether the "human" treatment of Hitler might not inadvertently aid the neo-Nazi movement. But in his many rants in Hitler says that the German people do not deserve to survive, that they have failed him by losing the war and must perish – not exactly the

1343:

Moving an event in time for dramatic effect may be a legitimate movie-making tactic, and Speer did much to prevent scorched earth being carried out. Overall, though, the effect of the movie is to depict Speer with his ‘confession’ in a much better light that he deserved, and by also depicting

492:

There was a lengthy discussion on the moderated WWII Usenet discussion group about the offensive nature of the Goebbels family suicide (or more exactly, murdering the kids). Certainly a number of people in that discussion found the movie controversial! More generally, many find any humanizing

242:

by Channel 4. Channel 4 are usually pretty good with retaining foreign titles where they are applicable, but I believe the ditributor in this instance thought the literal translation, "The Fall", would not have had the desired meaning. Brilliant film though, Ganz should have won an Oscar.

1323:

This is touched on twice in the movie and the article: “Meanwhile, Hitler discusses his scorched earth policy with Speer”. And later: “Finally, he meets Hitler himself, and confesses that he had been ignoring and acting contrary to most of his orders given over the past several months”.

3087:

Speaking for myself, I saw the movie when it came out and have not seen, and am not interested in seeing, any of the parodies. The material you added was interesting but too long and with too many quotations. Could we compromise on a one-sentence summary, supported by the same reference?

851:

Hmm. Ganz is indeed Swiss (albeit German-spaking). Perhaps the statement should have been "the first German film release where Hitler is depicted by an actor ". In any event, seems like this point needs further confirmation/detail (from the German Knowledge site, among other sources). —

2282:

And another source: "Downfall is focalized through Hilter's young secretary, Traudl Junge. Through her eyes we see the German officers, both Nazi and army, trying to bring some reason into an insane world reminds us that in the same situation, we would probably behave in just the same

1595:

are three entire articles about this phenomenon in two of Britain's leading newspapers, plus The Guardian. If you haven't got the gumption to turn those concrete references into at least a short paragraph, there's no hope for you; that's why you're anonymous IP addresses and I am

206:

With the exception of the US and Italy, this film is known by the title "Der Untergang" in most of the world. It is not called "De Ondergang" in The Netherlands.. IMDB lists it as "Der Untergang" as well. The Americanized title you suggest is a redirect already, so why move it?

873:

Well, being honest Ganz is a Swiss actor but hes living in Germany for years. They wanted an austrich actor, because Hitler was austrich nocht german but they couldn*t find anyone who wanted to do the job because the austrich dont want to see that hitler was one of them::_

2885:

surrender, or the conference room when he assures General Walther Wenck's 12th Army will rescue Berlin. Following this quote and I cannot determine whether his generals agreed the attack could not be commenced or whether it was somewhat ignored in the rest of the script.

2007:

her performance and the positive light cast on her by the filmmakers. Are there no published movie reviews that note the incongruity of Lara's Florence Nightingale-like performance and Junge's actual complicity (albeit as a minor, subordinate figure) in the Nazi machine?--

2082:

Her portrayal has indeed been criticised: Peter Longerich, a modern history prof, has said that "Traudl Junge never admitted she was a member of the Nazi party; but of course she was a member of Nazi organisations - far from the innocent, naive young woman we see in the

2375:

The person above is right. Altough the "Gets banned from Xbox live" was the one which started the meme big time, it was definitely not the first one. Similar parodies were made nearly a year before. So the section in the article should be removed or heavily modified

1432:"Controversy also followed after the films end texts where the director only mentioned one race that were murdered by the Nazis but no other ethnic group like the Romani were mentioned which lead many to believe that the director only looked for a job in Hollywood." 1950:

I also think perhaps it's time the meme stuff had an article of its own, as it really has very little to do with the film as a dramatic work. It just uses the scene as some handy German-language footage of Hitler, portrayed by an actor, ranting at his generals.

1436:

would have been dubbed or English speaking actors cast (not that I would have agreed with such a move). Just putting "Some people thought the director was after a Hollywood career" isn't enough. If you have citations from film reviews or whatever, fair enough.

3060:

That's a good point. However, it seems to me that for this particular movie, the parodies are the biggest reason for notability. I myself had never heard of the movie until the parodies came about, and I suspect that this is true for most other people as well.

778:

who had previously played a Nazi. Neither have there been no other Germans portraying Nazis, nor were all actors on the set German. ok? Ganz is Swiss, but I don't see what this has to do with anything, or the statement about Kretschmann in particular. Please

933:

According to his insignia in the movie, and according to the German Knowledge and other on-line sources, Günsche was Sturmbannführer in april 1945, not Hauptsturmführer. I'm editing the article to reflect this, but please correct me if I am mistaken.

1677:

I believe the Iron Cross 1st class is worn on the breast pocket, the 2nd class is the small red ribbon sometimes seen on the buttonhole of a uniform jacket and the Knights Cross (and it's additions like Swords, Oak Leaves etc) are worn at the neck.

449:

out, now that the film's been exposed to German audiences for over a year now. I've read quite a few accounts that this powerful film leaves people in stunned silence, but I'd like to know what they're discussing after they recover their voices. —

217:

think that is the case. The English language Knowledge is for speakers of English. I would probably agree to changing the Knowledge policy to only have the original foreign language names of books and films, but that would be a policy change. --

538:? The Goebbels' murder of their six children is particularly shocking, as is the "explanation" attributed to their mother: "They belong to the Third Reich and to the Führer, and if these two cease to exist there can be no further place for them." 2146:

It doesn't really matter if its a documentary or fiction. if reliable sources have taken an issue with the film and multiple sources have done so then it is worth mentioning. We don't get to leave it out because we think its irrelevant. That is

808:(as opposed to using actual film footage of Hitler)". That clearly indicates, erroneously, that Ganz is German. I thought the correction didn't warrant its own section, but wanted to raise the point in case someone else had information that he 503:

I'd like to know how the Goebbels family suicide was found 'offensive'. Granted it's an extremely distasteful act, but if the film aims to be true to life, any alteration to such a horrible act only trivialises it, or am I missing the point?

2075:

asking if reliable sources exist, this is a fair comment. The film is indeed narrated from her point of view, so she is the protagonist, something we should note more clearly: "Narrated from the perspective of Hitler's secretary, Traudl

308:

to portray Hitler "up close and personal", but I don't think anybody actually questioned the film's good faith. I cannot remember serious controversy, in any case. Some people liked it, some didn't, but you can say that of most movies.

3386:

drinking alcoholic beverages and playing with half-naked women. None of the witness accounts tells about anything like this. There was some sort of panic and desperation in that bunker, but the discipline was maintained until the end.

1661:

It says in the article that Weidling lifts the Iron Cross at his neck at Burgdorf when asked to explain himself. I can't remember the scene myself, but it sounds like the Knights Cross to me(carried around the neck), not just the Iron

3213:

Information about the parodies' resurgence and the second removal sweep by Constantin has been removed from the article. I was in the process of finding sources for this. So why was it removed? it's relevant to the parodies section.

1344:

Hitler’s acquiescence to it the impression is given that Hitler relented on the policy. For these reasons I think the main article should contain a brief note that the ‘confession’ and Hitler’s acquiescence did not actually happen.

1353:

Speer was a very cunning liar. If the truth about him had been known at Nuremberg, he would have been hanged. Read Adam Tooze's new book on the Nazi war economy, which makes his deep guilt over the use of slave labour very clear.

186:

it would be found there. This film, is not know by english speakers as "Der Untergang", thus, in articles it should be listed as "Downfall" which would need to be dissambiguated to reach this page. I suggest moving this page to

2219:

pointed out, Traudl Junge, the secretarial character, by her own admission, was not quite as innocent as she made out but nonetheless she is there showing the distorting effects on simple humanity of this madness and evil.(cite)

1813:

Haha.. but yes, I have seen the movie and do understand that it's not Adolf Hitler himself that act as Hitler. But how can you be sure of that it's a hole new photograph ? To me it seems very similar, do you have any sources ?

1732:

and his military theories, but I'm guessing these two aren't related as burning documents and moving stolen art doesn't exactly relate to military doctrine. What exactly is this Clausewitz plan about, and what's its history? --

712:

I added the German bit (rather hastily) because it seemed to make sense of a completely ambiguous sentence, but as you say it cant surely be true. "the only actor in Der Untergang's cast" seems most likely, but is it accurate?

1249:

I read the article about Traudl Junge and saw that the story of the movie differs from reality on a very important subject. The subject of what happened with her after the war. This is a quote from page about Traudl Junge:

2180:

No it doesn't, because we're not judging it. We let reliable sources judge it however they want and we simply compile that information and make an encyclopedic article out of it. If you're judging it, you're committing

1495:

Any room for all the Parodies on the scene where they tell him they are defeated? Hitler gets banned from Xbox live, HD DVD's downfall, Hitlers car gets stolen, hitler on Second Life, hitler installs Vista, etc...

3183:

comments, "Four years after the controversial film's North American release, it has reappeared in the cultural landscape – only this time, as farce." This is now a significant aspect of the information about the

1698:

Wheres the basic reception section? The usual Rotten Tomatoes and so on? I mean the point with currently have are taken into context as a debate over some of the film's context rather than a pros and cons check.

423:. You must have spotted my edits "right off the presses"; I hadn't even had time to add a snippet to this talk page! Anyway, all I was going to say here was "Hope this edit didn't make the article too long." 2602:

sentiments that would spark a recruitment drive. This Hitler may be human, but he's as utterly degraded a human being as has ever been shown on the screen, a man whose every impulse leads to annihilation.

1891:

There have been countless youtube videos exchanging the subtitles of the bunker scene with hilarious dialouges. Why is there no mention of this in the article either under pop cultural impact or trivia?

290:

I believe the controversy pertains to the portrayal of Hitler. It's not commonly acceptable to show him as anything else but an evil caricature or a raging madman. (Not that I would be a Nazi sympathizer)

3251:

The parodies are a meme, and many memes have their own articles on Knowledge, so i would support moving them to their own page. However, I also believe in democracy, so I think we should put it to vote.

1018:

Who are the two Generals/Field Marshals who kill themselves in the bunker near the end of the film? I know Jodl and Keitel both survived the bunker and went on trial, but I wonder who these two were.

1855:

They may seem more or less alike at first glance but when one looks carefully, nothing matches up. The angle is telltale, also AH's coat. If you want to put something about this in the article, it's

1620:

There should be a mention about the Extended version of the film. It was shown in german tv and is also available on DVD. The extended version is 22 minutes longer and has lots of additional scenes.

1532:

So do I - I came here looking for that. I think it deserves its own stub and there should be a link to it from here. Does the phenomenon have a name yet ? - like "hitler rant" or "downfall scene" ?

2052:

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I am asking for editors to supply sources! I am using this page for the purpose that it is designed for -- suggesting ways to improve the article!--

1149:

Keep it. I enjoyed reading the synopsis having watched the film itself. The film is around 2 hours 20 minutes therefore the synopsis reflects that. Why cut it briefly for convenience's sake?

2113:

I've put in the whole thread, above. Thanks for coming up with some sources, as I had reminded the IP to do. Please do put them in the article if you want (and have the time to do so).

3270:

For what it's worth my outlook is that the parodies are notable on their own as another topic altogether. I would think putting them in their own article might end any weight worries.

3401:

The reception has pretty much explained what most critics thought surrounding the accuracy of the film, are you asking about a potential section for the inaccuracies to be laid out?

1209:

meaningless. This is an article about a film about Hitler, why has it attracted so many weak people? Did Hitler have that effect in real life? Was he a magnet for internet typists? -

821:

this is true, and significant. It is not a coincidence that a Swiss actor played Hitler. The taboo-breaking would have been driven home much more if a German had played the role.

1478:

At over 4,000 words, the plot summary had been marked as overlong for several months. I've trimmed it to a more appropriate length and level of detail, using an older revision

98:

I also intended to write about this. I feel it is repectful of other cultures (and of original artworks) to use titles in original languages. I also favour "Der Untergang". --

621:

and sent chills down my spine (the "Mein Person! Mein Person! Mein Person!" bit almost gave me nightmares), and the movie was just about the best I had seen all year.

335:

Point taken. Perhaps we could mention what we *believe* was the source of some uneasiness, if not controversy. I offered my best guess, hope others might too. Cheers

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still, the controversy should be somehow described, with pointers to people who objected to the film, or else the descriptor "controversial" should be removed. It is

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As far as anyone I've ever talked to about this meme/parody is concerned, the parody section should remain, as this movie owes any notoriety it now has to them.

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better, it popularizes a historically more accurate depiction of the events instead of promoting a myth out of excessive fear of a continued cult of personality.

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Parodies are now a such a huge internet phenomenon, and have so little to do with this film, that they deserve (or at least need) their own separate article.

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I agree with this, actually. This is how a lot of people learned about the film; it's heavily parodied and should probably get a "cultural impact" section.

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Description of the plot is very helpful, not too long for me. I suggest that the wiki-editorial block saying plot is too long should be removed. Thanks! --

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Should we not have something in this article about that? It seems like the movie creators wanted a "happy ending" and that should be important to note. --

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with its square brackets is clearly a pov quote, yet it is not indented and marked as such. Is it part of the quote block that is just above it? --

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lot of the game terms and it is still widely circulated by the playerbase. I wanted to add this as well, but it does look rather lengthy already.

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me to believe anything, it's that the non-native English speaker who wrote the original synopsis will revert major changes to her/his work. Blah.

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see a section on historical accuracy for viewers who are curious how much of what they just saw was reliable and how much fabricated or altered.

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Anybody know who is the guy whose picture Hitler looks in the Bunker's wall when Traudl Junge enter in his room (sorry for my poor english)? --

2644: 1628:...the youtube 'dubbed' subtitles for the scene where Hitler goes off his nut, er, where they point at the map and the girl starts crying.-- 666:

Prior to this film, Thomas Kretschmann (SS Gruppenführer Hermann Fegelein) is the only German actor who had previously portrayed a Nazi, in

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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The movie has her dressed in a SS uniform for this reason. They seem to hint at this in dialogue, right before they leave the bunker.

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That's the only sensible way to read the sentence, and it does't seem unplausible. Actual verification is another matter, of course.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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and was taken only a few years ago. It is not at all the same photo. You do understand, don't you, that when watching the movie,

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Who amongst you has the courage and the wherewithal to do anything about this? Who will write the first sentence? I'll help you;

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events from Junge's naive perspective allows the viewer to comfortably relax unlike when watching more uncomfortable films like

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6029357/Elon-Musk-tweets-hilarious-parody-video-Hitler-shorting-Tesla-stock.html

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order had largely disappeared. The deserters were actually, fairly old men who probably deserted from their Volkssturm unit.

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The plot section needs to be shorten substantially. It has to be cut to one fifth of its current length at the very least. --

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article I changed it to read 'third german playing hiter' because in that article is mentions "feature" films. I dont think

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The synopsis was extraordinarily useful. I would not have understood the historical meaning of half the movie without it. --

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And the second, why is it so important, that Kretschmann portrayed a Nazi this often? Why you discussed this point so often?

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The policy states that it should be at the most commonly known name. If a film is known by its foreign language name, like

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I second that. It's supposed to a short summary. Please shorten it considerably. This is an encyclopedia, not a fan site.

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overcame attacking forces, turning defeat into victory and elevating Prussia from European backwater to a strong state

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What I was referring to was this section in the previous revision: "the film broke one of the last remaining taboos by

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What are these people thinking? Did they expect the depiction of the final days of a war and of a horrid regime to be

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in the first place? Did that article exist? There is another dead link, but it has an article in German Knowledge.--

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discussed the scorched earth policy with Hitler was on 29 March 1945, about two weeks before the events depicted in

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An IP's comments on this topic were excised by Gwen Gale, but I don't think this was reasonable, so here they are:

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portrayal of Hitler offensive; the film was damned on that account by several reviewers in Britain and the U.S. --

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131031010218/http://www.theguardian.com/internetting/hitler-downfall-video-youtube

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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cast. If anyone has a source, let's use it and clear up the ambiguity. IMDb doesn't mention this trivia item. —

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I can't take this shit, why spend €13,500,000 on a great movie and then ruining it by a little enormous hoax ?

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appears at the end. The film is a "challenge to viewers to investigate their own perceptions and mindsets."

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Given the above stated, I therefore cast my vote for moving the parodies to their own topic page/article.

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who specializes in them. In case anybody is interested, my all-time favorite parody is (needless to say)…

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very much human. To never show this and only caricature him as an evil madman is to lay the path for the

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as a controversial film, but nowhere in the article is the nature of this so-called controversy stated. —

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https://web.archive.org/web/20130323023042/http://www.svtplay.se:80/video/1110425/del-2-av-12-hitlerhumor

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Bruno Ganz is Swiss, not German, as far as I'm aware. He was born in Zurich, and makes this statement in

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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as early as 1955. It is unsourced anyway, so I'll delete it. If anyone wants to revert, please discuss.

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Completely agree. The parodies have been viewed millions of times and absolutely need to be mentioned.

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Yup, I'm yet another person who came here and was surprised there was no mention of this internet meme.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20150711182434/http://berliner-unterwelten.de/myth-of-germania.1882.1.html

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in subsequent "clean up" watch your information as to description and spell check your work, as well.

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Yes, it is — check Amazon or your favorite retailer. See it in a theater first if you can, however. —

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hesitate to post any edits to my work and let me know what your thoughts are on this page. JMHENDER

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I agree with that in general. However, is that the general convention with film or book titles? --

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This movie has been rated R by the MPAA for strong violence, disturbing images and some nudity.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Significant Quote from film not in Article 'I have 10,000 fighter planes in the Czech Republic!'

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Please, we have established that the meaning of the statement is that Kretschmann was the only

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Perhaps a separate article should be created for this extra information about the parodies?

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As for the "humanizing" portrayal of Hitler, the dictator was, like it or not, a member of

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one to be forcibly removed by Constantin Film and was never again uploaded by its author.

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it, and commented, "removing commentary; undue weight; this article is about the movie."

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Can someone provide a link or add further detail on what discussion happened after this?

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The greek film should be moved as well if this page gets moved - too similar in name. --

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Hi, I fixed the references. If you find a mistake please tell me so I can correct them.

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Yes, and it is very badly-written. I suggest someone who watched the movie re-write it.

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I'll see about starting up its own page, but we'll need to add to it when it's there.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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I've started the synopsis edits. If I find the patience later, will keep trimming it.

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The ending might not come as a shock for most, but should there be a spoiler warning?

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Keep the parodies section as is, as long as it is, and on this page, and — Fegelein!

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I agree, there should be some mention of this relatively recent Internet phenomenon.

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actor had played him. It is the fact that it is a German film, which portrays Hitler.

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where that stuff belongs, but mind, Knowledge doesn't link to copyright violations.

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is less notable than this movie. I was considering maybe requesting a move to just

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Beats me! But someone did indeed find the movie upsetting, hence a controversy. --

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

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it was the parody clips that led me to see the original (and well done) film.

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states that most of the remaining members of Hitler's entourage departed the

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did not join in the exodus and instead shot themselves in the cellar of the

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Is there a DVD avaliable? Would be interesting to show my history teacher.

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I agree (On a sidenote, I can't believe this movie didn't get an Oscar!).

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http://www.language.iastate.edu/main/department/calendar/pix/downfall.jpg

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The two generals are indeed Krebs and Burgdorf. (Greetings from Germany)

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fact that the meme has now become self-referential should be mentioned.

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that ending was dodgy. The bit with the bicycle was way too contrived. -

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better -- but I agree with you about keeping the parodies section. As

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Feel free to have a stab at the article (with cites, as well). Cheers,

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https://www.theguardian.com/internetting/hitler-downfall-video-youtube

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in the UK, and was shown on British TV on 2nd March 2006, promoted as

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This confession was first reported by a French author in 1952, but in

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FEGELEIN! — stop taking yourselves so seriously. FYI, there is even

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I added a substantial amount of info to the section on parodies.

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It is, Hitler would often look at the portrait for inspiration as

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According to Kershaw, page 1038, footnote 156 of Chapter 17 from

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Speer's 'confession' of disobeying Hitler's scorched earth orders

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its depiction of Adolf Hitler in a central role by a German actor

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I think another article on the parodies alone is the way to go.

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Breaking taboo by depiction of Hitler by German-speaking actor?

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The original text didn't qualify the context and simply stated

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that someone was going to make a YouTube video about this RM.

25: 3209:(I'm not sure if my old wikipedia user page is still around) 2368:

The original, as far as i can tell, was this one in spanish:

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article on the parodies alone, as Gwen Gale suggests above.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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http://berliner-unterwelten.de/myth-of-germania.1882.1.html

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http://www.svtplay.se/video/1110425/del-2-av-12-hitlerhumor

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This is clearly wrong. Hitler was played by Albin Skoda in

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which was unambiguous? It's the original title, after all.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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I don't know if these were the generals represented, but

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the back to the front. It's a HISTORY FORGING ffs (!)

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Wiki policy is to use english titles. See for example

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

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JMHENDER proposes several additions to this film page

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http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/downfall-hitler-reacts/

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My childhood was in Switzerland, and this is my home.

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correctly redirects to that disambiguation page. --

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fact and fiction in portrayal of same (and events).

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Anyone know what model of car they used in the film?

3440:. No further edits should be made to this section. 2982:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2821:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 2691:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1789:, but rather, a professional actor playing a role? 1056:. Shirer stated that it was believed that Generals 3626:. No further edits should be made to this section. 1088:summarize every 5 minutes of the movie like that. 988:I'm not sure, but it could be Frederick the Great 692:the only actor who had previously portrayed a Nazi 356:Thanks to all for responding. While it is indeed 1759:http://www.flickr.com/photos/njuuton/2541182348/ 2004: 3529:could ever be a primary topic title. There is 2968:This message was posted before February 2018. 2807:This message was posted before February 2018. 2677:This message was posted before February 2018. 1405:was such a film and more an art house movie. 8: 3171:Among the parodies of the parodies, I like 3426:The following is a closed discussion of a 2938:I have just modified one external link on 2912:I've removed it, but why was there a link 2757:I have just modified one external link on 2627:I have just modified one external link on 2370:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RTYO0TT5C8 1771:Where in the article should I put this ? 1749:Question about photos (retitled section) 3070:I will obey whatever the consensus is. 3154:Hitler rants about the Hitler Parodies 2521:Detailed plot description very helpful 1445:I reverted it, and he's been blocked. 1397:I changed it to read 'fourth'. In the 1393:number of germans playing hitler films 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3556:and speedy close next editor please. 2796:to let others know (documentation at 2666:to let others know (documentation at 276:The introductory paragraph describes 7: 3573:per Netoholic and In ictu oculi. 3445:The result of the move request was: 2259:Aha, some more interesting analysis! 1942:Hitler is not taking this lying down 1329:Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth 1035:The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich 2594:Quote section not marked as a quote 2337:Feldgendarmerie or Greifkommando ? 480:fascist dictator. Never forget. 24: 3537:, which lists several films, and 2942:. Please take a moment to review 2761:. Please take a moment to review 2631:. Please take a moment to review 1730:Prussian general of the same name 1403:Hitler - ein Film aus Deutschland 700:the only actor in Der Untergang's 2372:as no older ones can be found! 29: 1920:Adolf Hitler in popular culture 555:— he wasn't a space alien. As 1264:15:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC) 1145:09:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC) 1009:01:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC) 1: 3200:12:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC) 3041:Weight of parodies in article 3036:10:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC) 2875:11:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 2745:13:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC) 2589:21:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC) 2501:20:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC) 2483:16:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC) 2455:16:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC) 2386:09:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC) 1873:20:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC) 1834:19:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC) 1359:06:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC) 1349:06:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC) 1314:23:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC) 857:21:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC) 835:13:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC) 817:12:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC) 797:10:50, 24 December 2005 (UTC) 765:09:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC) 419:Many thanks for your praise, 3351:02:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC) 3166:16:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC) 3135:15:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 3113:14:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 3098:20:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC) 3082:17:09, 2 February 2010 (UTC) 2542:16:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC) 2358:11:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC) 2015:) 9:26 pm, Yesterday (UTC+1) 1932:19:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC) 1908:17:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC) 1486:23:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC) 1469:00:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC) 1293:08:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC) 1237:02:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 1073:08:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC) 1023:18:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 993:22:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 984:00:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC) 969:06:11, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 959:04:47, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 939:14:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 736:08:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC) 718:10:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 707:00:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC) 641:10:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC) 591:09:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC) 522:20:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 509:15:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 498:11:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 454:02:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 395:02:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC) 369:22:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 340:21:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 323:20:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 296:20:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 285:20:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC) 222:09:12, 4 February 2006 (UTC) 212:10:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC) 198:00:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC) 175:11:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC) 3067:What do other users think? 1799:23:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC) 1787:you didn't see Adolf Hitler 1757:Just compare the original, 1743:19:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC) 1652:17:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC) 1450:20:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC) 1441:20:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC) 1374:03:42, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 1280:05:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC) 1165:11:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC) 754:but I’m very strongly Swiss 3643: 3485:, but that would be a big 3419:Requested move 2 July 2018 3396:00:09, 27 April 2018 (UTC) 3302:21:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 3280:15:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 3262:13:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 3243:13:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 3224:09:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC) 2999:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2935:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2838:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2754:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2708:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2624:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1961:04:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC) 1610:20:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC) 1577:18:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC) 1527:14:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC) 1421:09:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC) 1245:Traudl Junge a rape victim 1219:20:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC) 1044:during a mass breakout on 694:. The edit changed it to 360:— and some would even say 3459:16:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC) 2926:15:24, 16 July 2017 (UTC) 2903:13:09, 8 March 2017 (UTC) 2566:22:16, 1 April 2014 (UTC) 2516:01:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC) 2404:18:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC) 2315:21:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2300:19:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2278:19:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2255:19:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2229:17:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2214:13:40, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2199:13:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2176:13:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2161:07:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC) 2142:20:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC) 2123:16:11, 16 June 2010 (UTC) 2108:15:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC) 2062:20:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC) 2040:20:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC) 1781:, the poster photo is of 1688:23:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC) 1672:12:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC) 1557:02:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC) 1542:22:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC) 1512:14:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC) 1387:19:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 1184:21:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 626:03:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC) 611:19:14, 3 March 2006 (UTC) 264:02:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC) 248:16:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC) 18:Talk:Downfall (2004 film) 3619:Please do not modify it. 3604:12:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3587:19:19, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3566:07:02, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3549:20:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 3512:17:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 3497:16:45, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 3433:Please do not modify it. 3413:16:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 3371:03:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2615:17:51, 12 May 2016 (UTC) 2424:22:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC) 2364:Origins of Downfall meme 1991:03:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC) 1709:01:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 1638:20:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC) 1203:09:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC) 1136:05:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC) 1118:12:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC) 1105:14:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC) 1093:02:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC) 156:23:51, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC) 113:15:46, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC) 94:07:09, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) 3156:(especially at 1:45)… 2931:External links modified 2750:External links modified 2620:External links modified 1724:Ever since I first saw 1624:Maybe we can discuss... 1491:parody / in pop culture 1006:.:Stirb Nicht Vor Mir:. 999:Frederick II of Prussia 485:17:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC) 472:That is just it—Hitler 137:16:45, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC) 124:ok, I moved it back... 102:18:34, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC) 2017: 1859:who will need to find 1333:Inside the Third Reich 1257: 1190:more details, please. 943:You are correct, sir. 168:In Search of Lost Time 1411:comment was added by 1252: 1155:comment was added by 1066:New Reich Chancellery 696:the only German actor 646:Only German? Indeed, 42:of past discussions. 3465:Downfall (2004 film) 2980:regular verification 2940:Downfall (2004 film) 2914:Igor Romanov (actor) 2819:regular verification 2759:Downfall (2004 film) 2689:regular verification 2629:Downfall (2004 film) 1783:the actor Bruno Ganz 1657:Weidlings Iron Cross 1014:Who are the Generals 882:comment was added by 783:the comments above. 654:The latest edit (by 255:Definitely known as 77:Why not leave it at 3479:The Downfall (film) 3381:Historical accuracy 2970:After February 2018 2809:After February 2018 2788:parameter below to 2679:After February 2018 2658:parameter below to 756:. I can’t hide it. 234:It was released as 3492:In Memoriam A.H.H. 3477:and the fact that 3024:InternetArchiveBot 2975:InternetArchiveBot 2863:InternetArchiveBot 2814:InternetArchiveBot 2733:InternetArchiveBot 2684:InternetArchiveBot 2409:The movie Iron Sky 2087:madness and evil." 1863:about it to cite. 1761:to the faked one, 752:- "I am European, 684:Head in the Clouds 259:up here in Canada 3585: 3341:comment added by 3332: 3318:comment added by 3198: 3177:the cited article 3000: 2839: 2709: 2577:The Last Ten Days 2532:comment added by 2486: 2469:comment added by 2458: 2441:comment added by 2348:comment added by 2236:Life is Beautiful 2183:original research 1994: 1977:comment added by 1898:comment added by 1836: 1820:comment added by 1579: 1567:comment added by 1514: 1502:comment added by 1424: 1168: 1030:William L. Shirer 912:I am from Germany 896: 833: 795: 776:German on the set 734: 559:concludes in his 321: 136: 93: 67: 66: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3634: 3621: 3577: 3493: 3472: 3435: 3406: 3353: 3331: 3312: 3191: 3034: 3025: 2998: 2997: 2976: 2873: 2864: 2837: 2836: 2815: 2803: 2743: 2734: 2707: 2706: 2685: 2673: 2548:Der Untergangers 2544: 2485: 2463: 2457: 2435: 2360: 2297: 2293: 2289: 2275: 2271: 2267: 2252: 2248: 2244: 2105: 2101: 2097: 1993: 1971: 1910: 1887:Youtube Parodies 1861:reliable sources 1815: 1616:Extended version 1562: 1497: 1406: 1277: 1150: 1062:Wilhelm Burgdorf 945:User:ratzinger81 875: 825: 812:in fact German. 787: 726: 313: 128: 85: 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3642: 3641: 3637: 3636: 3635: 3633: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3617: 3592:I was hoping... 3539:Downfall (film) 3527:Downfall (film) 3491: 3475:WP:PRIMARYTOPIC 3470:Downfall (film) 3468: 3431: 3421: 3402: 3383: 3336: 3313: 3103:start one now. 3043: 3028: 3023: 2991: 2984:have permission 2974: 2948:this simple FaQ 2933: 2910: 2882: 2867: 2862: 2830: 2823:have permission 2813: 2797: 2767:this simple FaQ 2752: 2737: 2732: 2700: 2693:have permission 2683: 2667: 2637:this simple FaQ 2622: 2596: 2573: 2550: 2527: 2523: 2464: 2436: 2431: 2411: 2366: 2343: 2339: 2295: 2291: 2287: 2273: 2269: 2265: 2250: 2246: 2242: 2103: 2099: 2095: 2000: 1972: 1968: 1944: 1893: 1889: 1751: 1716: 1696: 1659: 1626: 1618: 1493: 1476: 1457: 1430: 1407:—The preceding 1395: 1380:Hitler: Nemesis 1366: 1346:Rexparry sydney 1321: 1271: 1247: 1151:—The preceding 1142:EnemyOfTheState 1085: 1016: 977: 952: 931: 652: 633: 274: 268:And in the US. 190:Downfall (film) 75: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3640: 3638: 3629: 3628: 3614:requested move 3608: 3607: 3606: 3589: 3568: 3551: 3515: 3514: 3462: 3443: 3442: 3428:requested move 3422: 3420: 3417: 3416: 3415: 3382: 3379: 3378: 3377: 3376: 3375: 3374: 3373: 3309: 3308: 3307: 3306: 3305: 3304: 3285: 3284: 3283: 3282: 3265: 3264: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3227: 3226: 3186: 3185: 3181:Globe and Mail 3150:a YouTube user 3142: 3141: 3140: 3139: 3138: 3137: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3115: 3042: 3039: 3018: 3017: 3010: 2963: 2962: 2954:Added archive 2932: 2929: 2909: 2906: 2891:many thanks, 2881: 2878: 2857: 2856: 2849: 2782: 2781: 2773:Added archive 2751: 2748: 2727: 2726: 2719: 2652: 2651: 2643:Added archive 2621: 2618: 2598:This section: 2595: 2592: 2572: 2569: 2558:Martinevans123 2549: 2546: 2534:67.177.191.110 2522: 2519: 2504: 2503: 2430: 2427: 2410: 2407: 2365: 2362: 2338: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2332: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2318: 2317: 2280: 2257: 2185:and violating 2126: 2125: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2064: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2042: 1999: 1996: 1967: 1964: 1943: 1940: 1939: 1938: 1937: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1888: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1881: 1880: 1879: 1878: 1877: 1876: 1875: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1841: 1840: 1839: 1838: 1837: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1750: 1747: 1746: 1745: 1715: 1712: 1695: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1658: 1655: 1644:75.150.135.249 1625: 1622: 1617: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1602:Ashley Pomeroy 1598:Ashley Pomeroy 1549:216.69.223.249 1545: 1544: 1504:88.107.158.181 1492: 1489: 1475: 1472: 1456: 1453: 1429: 1426: 1394: 1391: 1371:Thelastemperor 1365: 1362: 1320: 1317: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1295: 1283: 1282: 1274:Michael Dorosh 1246: 1243: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1222: 1221: 1211:Ashley Pomeroy 1187: 1186: 1177: 1176: 1175: 1174: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1157:124.168.195.74 1123: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1108: 1107: 1099: 1084: 1081: 1078: 1076: 1075: 1015: 1012: 976: 973: 972: 971: 951: 948: 930: 927: 926: 925: 924: 923: 922: 921: 920: 919: 916: 902: 901: 900: 899: 898: 897: 885:80.136.213.247 878:The preceding 866: 865: 864: 863: 862: 861: 860: 859: 842: 841: 840: 839: 838: 837: 772: 771: 770: 769: 768: 767: 741: 740: 739: 738: 688: 687: 680:In Enemy Hands 662:section says: 651: 644: 632: 629: 618: 617: 616: 615: 614: 613: 598: 597: 596: 595: 594: 593: 584: 583: 582: 569: 568: 567: 566: 565: 564: 544: 543: 542: 541: 540: 539: 527: 526: 525: 524: 512: 511: 490: 489: 488: 487: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 461: 460: 459: 458: 457: 456: 435: 434: 433: 432: 431: 430: 429: 428: 427: 426: 425: 424: 406: 405: 404: 403: 402: 401: 400: 399: 398: 397: 378: 377: 376: 375: 374: 373: 372: 371: 362:unconventional 347: 346: 345: 344: 343: 342: 328: 327: 326: 325: 299: 298: 273: 270: 253: 252: 251: 250: 229: 228: 227: 226: 225: 224: 219:Samuel Wantman 201: 200: 195:Samuel Wantman 164: 163: 162: 161: 160: 159: 158: 157: 143: 142: 141: 140: 139: 138: 117: 116: 115: 114: 104: 103: 74: 71: 69: 65: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3639: 3627: 3625: 3620: 3615: 3610: 3609: 3605: 3601: 3597: 3593: 3590: 3588: 3584: 3580: 3576: 3575:Roman Spinner 3572: 3569: 3567: 3563: 3559: 3558:In ictu oculi 3555: 3552: 3550: 3547: 3544: 3540: 3536: 3532: 3528: 3524: 3520: 3517: 3516: 3513: 3509: 3505: 3501: 3500: 3499: 3498: 3494: 3489:. Thank you. 3488: 3484: 3480: 3476: 3471: 3466: 3461: 3460: 3456: 3452: 3448: 3441: 3439: 3434: 3429: 3424: 3423: 3418: 3414: 3410: 3405: 3404:NowIsntItTime 3400: 3399: 3398: 3397: 3393: 3389: 3380: 3372: 3368: 3364: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3357: 3356: 3355: 3354: 3352: 3348: 3344: 3340: 3333: 3329: 3325: 3321: 3317: 3303: 3299: 3295: 3291: 3290: 3289: 3288: 3287: 3286: 3281: 3277: 3273: 3269: 3268: 3267: 3266: 3263: 3259: 3255: 3254:ggctuk (2005) 3250: 3249: 3244: 3240: 3236: 3231: 3230: 3229: 3228: 3225: 3221: 3217: 3216:ggctuk (2005) 3212: 3211: 3210: 3208: 3202: 3201: 3197: 3194: 3190: 3182: 3178: 3174: 3170: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3163: 3159: 3155: 3151: 3147: 3136: 3132: 3128: 3124: 3123: 3122: 3121: 3120: 3119: 3114: 3110: 3106: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3095: 3091: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3068: 3065: 3062: 3058: 3056: 3053:Another user 3051: 3048: 3047: 3040: 3038: 3037: 3032: 3027: 3026: 3015: 3011: 3008: 3004: 3003: 3002: 2995: 2989: 2985: 2981: 2977: 2971: 2966: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2952: 2951: 2949: 2945: 2941: 2936: 2930: 2928: 2927: 2923: 2919: 2915: 2907: 2905: 2904: 2900: 2896: 2892: 2889: 2886: 2877: 2876: 2871: 2866: 2865: 2854: 2850: 2847: 2843: 2842: 2841: 2834: 2828: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2810: 2805: 2801: 2795: 2791: 2787: 2780: 2776: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2768: 2764: 2760: 2755: 2749: 2747: 2746: 2741: 2736: 2735: 2724: 2720: 2717: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2704: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2686: 2680: 2675: 2671: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2650: 2646: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2625: 2619: 2617: 2616: 2612: 2608: 2603: 2599: 2593: 2591: 2590: 2586: 2582: 2578: 2570: 2568: 2567: 2563: 2559: 2555: 2547: 2545: 2543: 2539: 2535: 2531: 2520: 2518: 2517: 2513: 2509: 2502: 2498: 2494: 2489: 2488: 2487: 2484: 2480: 2476: 2472: 2468: 2459: 2456: 2452: 2448: 2444: 2440: 2428: 2426: 2425: 2421: 2417: 2408: 2406: 2405: 2401: 2397: 2394: 2388: 2387: 2383: 2379: 2373: 2371: 2363: 2361: 2359: 2355: 2351: 2350:124.185.84.18 2347: 2336: 2316: 2312: 2308: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2298: 2290: 2285: 2281: 2279: 2276: 2268: 2261: 2258: 2256: 2253: 2245: 2240: 2237: 2232: 2231: 2230: 2226: 2222: 2217: 2216: 2215: 2211: 2207: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2196: 2192: 2188: 2184: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2173: 2169: 2164: 2163: 2162: 2158: 2154: 2150: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2139: 2135: 2130: 2129: 2128: 2127: 2124: 2120: 2116: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2106: 2098: 2092: 2089: 2085: 2081: 2078: 2074: 2071:As the IP is 2063: 2059: 2055: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2048: 2047: 2046: 2041: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2016: 2014: 2010: 2003: 1997: 1995: 1992: 1988: 1984: 1980: 1976: 1965: 1963: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1953:Tasty monster 1948: 1941: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1921: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1909: 1905: 1901: 1900:76.203.150.17 1897: 1886: 1874: 1870: 1866: 1862: 1858: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1849: 1848: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1835: 1831: 1827: 1823: 1819: 1812: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1800: 1796: 1792: 1788: 1784: 1780: 1776: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1769: 1766: 1764: 1760: 1755: 1748: 1744: 1740: 1736: 1731: 1727: 1726:Der Untergang 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1714:"clausewitz"? 1713: 1711: 1710: 1706: 1702: 1693: 1689: 1685: 1681: 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1664:83.109.85.160 1656: 1654: 1653: 1649: 1645: 1640: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1623: 1621: 1615: 1611: 1607: 1603: 1599: 1594: 1590: 1586: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1578: 1574: 1570: 1569:204.110.112.2 1566: 1559: 1558: 1554: 1550: 1543: 1539: 1535: 1531: 1530: 1529: 1528: 1524: 1520: 1515: 1513: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1490: 1488: 1487: 1484: 1480: 1473: 1471: 1470: 1466: 1462: 1454: 1452: 1451: 1448: 1443: 1442: 1439: 1433: 1427: 1425: 1422: 1418: 1414: 1410: 1404: 1400: 1392: 1390: 1388: 1385: 1381: 1376: 1375: 1372: 1363: 1361: 1360: 1357: 1351: 1350: 1347: 1341: 1339: 1334: 1330: 1325: 1316: 1315: 1311: 1307: 1306:88.109.185.96 1303: 1294: 1291: 1287: 1286: 1285: 1284: 1281: 1278: 1276: 1275: 1268: 1267: 1266: 1265: 1262: 1256: 1255:intelligence 1251: 1244: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1225: 1224: 1223: 1220: 1216: 1212: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1200: 1196: 1195:71.112.16.145 1191: 1185: 1182: 1178: 1166: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1143: 1139: 1138: 1137: 1134: 1129: 1128: 1127: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1119: 1116: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1109: 1106: 1103: 1100: 1097: 1096: 1095: 1094: 1091: 1082: 1080: 1074: 1071: 1067: 1063: 1059: 1055: 1051: 1047: 1043: 1042: 1037: 1036: 1031: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1024: 1021: 1013: 1011: 1010: 1007: 1002: 1000: 995: 994: 991: 986: 985: 982: 981:201.8.246.224 974: 970: 967: 963: 962: 961: 960: 957: 956:63.146.46.202 949: 947: 946: 941: 940: 937: 928: 917: 913: 910: 909: 908: 907: 906: 905: 904: 903: 894: 890: 886: 883: 881: 872: 871: 870: 869: 868: 867: 858: 855: 850: 849: 848: 847: 846: 845: 844: 843: 836: 832: 830: 824: 820: 819: 818: 815: 811: 807: 803: 802: 801: 800: 799: 798: 794: 792: 786: 782: 777: 766: 763: 759: 755: 751: 747: 746: 745: 744: 743: 742: 737: 733: 731: 725: 721: 720: 719: 716: 711: 710: 709: 708: 705: 701: 697: 693: 685: 681: 677: 673: 669: 665: 664: 663: 661: 657: 649: 645: 643: 642: 639: 630: 628: 627: 624: 612: 609: 604: 603: 602: 601: 600: 599: 592: 589: 585: 581: 577: 576: 575: 574: 573: 572: 571: 570: 562: 558: 554: 550: 549: 548: 547: 546: 545: 537: 533: 532: 531: 530: 529: 528: 523: 520: 516: 515: 514: 513: 510: 507: 502: 501: 500: 499: 496: 486: 483: 482:128.194.23.41 479: 475: 471: 470: 469: 468: 455: 452: 447: 446: 445: 444: 443: 442: 441: 440: 439: 438: 437: 436: 422: 418: 417: 416: 415: 414: 413: 412: 411: 410: 409: 408: 407: 396: 393: 388: 387: 386: 385: 384: 383: 382: 381: 380: 379: 370: 367: 363: 359: 355: 354: 353: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 341: 338: 334: 333: 332: 331: 330: 329: 324: 320: 318: 312: 307: 303: 302: 301: 300: 297: 294: 289: 288: 287: 286: 283: 279: 278:Der Untergang 271: 269: 266: 265: 262: 258: 257:Der Untergang 249: 246: 241: 237: 233: 232: 231: 230: 223: 220: 215: 214: 213: 210: 205: 204: 203: 202: 199: 196: 192: 191: 185: 184: 179: 178: 177: 176: 173: 169: 155: 154:62.64.223.207 151: 150: 149: 148: 147: 146: 145: 144: 135: 133: 127: 123: 122: 121: 120: 119: 118: 112: 108: 107: 106: 105: 101: 97: 96: 95: 92: 90: 84: 80: 79:Der Untergang 72: 70: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3618: 3611: 3591: 3570: 3553: 3531:WP:NOPRIMARY 3518: 3482: 3463: 3446: 3444: 3432: 3425: 3384: 3363:Cramyourspam 3343:68.32.86.125 3334: 3310: 3203: 3187: 3180: 3145: 3143: 3072: 3069: 3066: 3063: 3059: 3052: 3049: 3044: 3022: 3019: 2994:source check 2973: 2967: 2964: 2937: 2934: 2911: 2893: 2890: 2887: 2883: 2861: 2858: 2833:source check 2812: 2806: 2793: 2789: 2785: 2783: 2756: 2753: 2731: 2728: 2703:source check 2682: 2676: 2663: 2659: 2655: 2653: 2626: 2623: 2604: 2600: 2597: 2574: 2551: 2528:— Preceding 2524: 2505: 2460: 2432: 2414:officers. -- 2412: 2389: 2374: 2367: 2340: 2235: 2149:a neutrality 2073:specifically 2072: 2070: 2054:84.58.21.196 2009:84.58.21.196 2005: 2001: 1998:Traudl Junge 1969: 1949: 1945: 1890: 1856: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1777:Uhm, it's a 1770: 1767: 1756: 1752: 1725: 1718: 1717: 1697: 1680:Douglasnicol 1660: 1641: 1627: 1619: 1560: 1546: 1516: 1494: 1483:Tony Sidaway 1477: 1474:Plot summary 1458: 1447:DurinsBane87 1444: 1438:Douglasnicol 1434: 1431: 1413:82.29.231.97 1402: 1399:Joachim Fest 1396: 1379: 1377: 1367: 1352: 1342: 1337: 1332: 1328: 1326: 1322: 1301: 1299: 1273: 1272: 1261:Mailerdaemon 1258: 1253: 1248: 1192: 1188: 1181:24.22.210.14 1086: 1077: 1041:Führerbunker 1039: 1033: 1020:Douglasnicol 1017: 1003: 996: 990:Douglasnicol 987: 978: 953: 942: 932: 929:Otto Günsche 911: 877: 828: 809: 805: 790: 780: 775: 773: 757: 753: 750:an interview 729: 699: 695: 691: 689: 683: 679: 675: 671: 667: 659: 653: 647: 634: 619: 608:Bigpinkthing 578: 563:of the film, 553:homo sapiens 552: 535: 506:Douglasnicol 491: 477: 473: 361: 357: 316: 305: 277: 275: 272:Controversy? 267: 256: 254: 245:Bigpinkthing 239: 235: 188: 181: 165: 131: 88: 76: 68: 60: 43: 37: 3624:move review 3438:move review 3337:—Preceding 3314:—Preceding 3207:CharlieP216 3105:Grundle2600 3074:Grundle2600 2908:A dead link 2895:ToonIsALoon 2800:Sourcecheck 2670:Sourcecheck 2581:91.6.138.20 2465:—Preceding 2437:—Preceding 2416:31.45.79.44 2344:—Preceding 2026:, see also 1973:—Preceding 1894:—Preceding 1816:—Preceding 1563:—Preceding 1498:—Preceding 1428:Controversy 676:The Pianist 557:Roger Ebert 36:This is an 3596:Randy Kryn 3189:JamesMLane 3031:Report bug 2870:Report bug 2740:Report bug 2093:etc. etc. 1701:Stabby Joe 1694:Reception? 1662:Cross..... 1455:References 1058:Hans Krebs 936:JeroenHoek 814:Slideyfoot 762:Slideyfoot 668:Stalingrad 650:he German? 209:JeroenHoek 100:Liberlogos 3583:contribs) 3543:Netoholic 3523:WP:INCDAB 3487:snow pile 3447:not moved 3388:Mazarin07 3272:Gwen Gale 3179:from the 3146:Fegelein! 3127:Gwen Gale 3014:this tool 3007:this tool 2853:this tool 2846:this tool 2723:this tool 2716:this tool 2115:Gwen Gale 2032:Gwen Gale 1979:Dbmills62 1924:Gwen Gale 1865:Gwen Gale 1791:Gwen Gale 1630:Editor510 1534:Machete97 658:) to the 519:Cubdriver 495:Cubdriver 261:Sherurcij 172:Cubdriver 61:Archive 1 3535:Downfall 3483:Downfall 3451:Favonian 3339:unsigned 3328:contribs 3316:unsigned 3173:this one 3158:Asteriks 3020:Cheers.— 2859:Cheers.— 2729:Cheers.— 2530:unsigned 2479:contribs 2471:JMHENDER 2467:unsigned 2451:contribs 2443:JMHENDER 2439:unsigned 2396:Kaminari 2346:unsigned 2151:issue.-- 1987:contribs 1975:unsigned 1896:unsigned 1830:contribs 1818:unsigned 1565:unsigned 1519:KHorberg 1500:unsigned 1409:unsigned 1384:Mchelada 1338:Downfall 1300:Hmmm. I 1153:unsigned 1090:Pariah23 893:contribs 880:unsigned 636:objects 631:Synopsis 536:pleasant 358:uncommon 306:uncommon 240:Downfall 236:Downfall 183:Das Boot 3504:Denniss 3294:Kierzek 3235:Kierzek 3055:removed 2944:my edit 2786:checked 2763:my edit 2656:checked 2633:my edit 2607:Elmeter 2554:YouTube 2493:Kierzek 2378:El Ucca 2307:Kierzek 2296:Windows 2274:Windows 2251:Windows 2221:Kierzek 2206:Kierzek 2191:Crossmr 2187:WP:NPOV 2168:Kierzek 2153:Crossmr 2134:Kierzek 2104:Windows 2076:Junge". 2024:sources 1966:Ratings 1822:Njuuton 1364:Poison? 1302:thought 1115:Herunar 1070:JonRoma 966:JonRoma 854:JonRoma 704:JonRoma 588:JonRoma 451:JonRoma 366:JonRoma 282:JonRoma 111:Brutulf 39:archive 3571:Oppose 3554:Oppose 3519:Oppose 3320:Ggctuk 2918:Adûnâi 2794:failed 2664:failed 2508:d-axel 2288:Fences 2266:Fences 2243:Fences 2096:Fences 2083:film." 1461:Webhat 1290:Donbas 1229:DJRafe 1133:Avalyn 975:Trivia 715:mervyn 660:Trivia 656:Mervyn 623:Rayaxe 561:review 421:Jbetak 392:Jbetak 337:Jbetak 293:Jbetak 3579:(talk 3184:film. 2292:& 2283:way." 2270:& 2247:& 2100:& 2028:WP:OR 2022:Cite 1779:movie 1269:Done. 1102:Peter 1050:May 2 1046:May 1 672:U-571 73:Title 16:< 3600:talk 3562:talk 3521:per 3508:talk 3455:talk 3409:talk 3392:talk 3367:talk 3347:talk 3324:talk 3298:talk 3276:talk 3258:talk 3239:talk 3220:talk 3162:talk 3131:talk 3109:talk 3094:talk 3090:John 3078:talk 2922:talk 2899:talk 2790:true 2660:true 2611:talk 2585:talk 2562:talk 2552:The 2538:talk 2512:talk 2497:talk 2475:talk 2447:talk 2420:talk 2400:talk 2382:talk 2354:talk 2311:talk 2225:talk 2210:talk 2195:talk 2172:talk 2157:talk 2138:talk 2119:talk 2058:talk 2036:talk 2013:talk 1983:talk 1928:talk 1918:See 1904:talk 1869:talk 1826:talk 1795:talk 1739:talk 1705:talk 1684:talk 1668:talk 1648:talk 1634:talk 1606:talk 1593:here 1591:and 1589:here 1585:here 1573:talk 1553:talk 1538:talk 1523:talk 1508:talk 1481:. -- 1465:talk 1417:talk 1356:Adam 1310:talk 1233:talk 1215:talk 1199:talk 1161:talk 1083:Plot 1068:. — 1060:and 1054:1945 950:DVD? 889:talk 781:read 682:and 638:Hobo 478:next 3616:. 3495:. 2988:RfC 2958:to 2827:RfC 2804:). 2792:or 2777:to 2697:RfC 2674:). 2662:or 2647:to 2189:.-- 1857:you 1735:MiG 1048:or 1032:'s 895:) . 823:dab 810:was 785:dab 724:dab 474:was 311:dab 126:dab 83:dab 3602:) 3581:• 3564:) 3510:) 3473:– 3467:→ 3457:) 3449:. 3430:. 3411:) 3394:) 3369:) 3349:) 3330:) 3326:• 3300:) 3278:) 3260:) 3241:) 3222:) 3164:) 3133:) 3111:) 3096:) 3088:-- 3080:) 3001:. 2996:}} 2992:{{ 2924:) 2901:) 2840:. 2835:}} 2831:{{ 2802:}} 2798:{{ 2710:. 2705:}} 2701:{{ 2672:}} 2668:{{ 2613:) 2587:) 2564:) 2540:) 2514:) 2499:) 2481:) 2477:• 2453:) 2449:• 2422:) 2402:) 2384:) 2356:) 2313:) 2227:) 2212:) 2197:) 2174:) 2159:) 2140:) 2121:) 2060:) 2038:) 2030:. 1989:) 1985:• 1959:) 1957:TS 1955:(= 1930:) 1906:) 1871:) 1832:) 1828:• 1797:) 1765:. 1741:) 1707:) 1686:) 1670:) 1650:) 1636:) 1608:) 1587:, 1575:) 1555:) 1540:) 1525:) 1510:) 1467:) 1419:) 1389:) 1312:) 1235:) 1217:) 1201:) 1163:) 1052:, 891:• 760:" 678:, 674:, 670:, 648:is 586:— 3598:( 3560:( 3546:@ 3506:( 3453:( 3407:( 3390:( 3365:( 3345:( 3322:( 3296:( 3274:( 3256:( 3237:( 3218:( 3196:c 3193:t 3160:( 3129:( 3107:( 3092:( 3076:( 3033:) 3029:( 3016:. 3009:. 2920:( 2897:( 2872:) 2868:( 2855:. 2848:. 2742:) 2738:( 2725:. 2718:. 2609:( 2583:( 2560:( 2536:( 2510:( 2495:( 2473:( 2445:( 2418:( 2398:( 2380:( 2352:( 2309:( 2223:( 2208:( 2193:( 2170:( 2155:( 2136:( 2117:( 2056:( 2034:( 2011:( 1981:( 1926:( 1902:( 1867:( 1824:( 1793:( 1737:( 1703:( 1682:( 1666:( 1646:( 1632:( 1604:( 1571:( 1551:( 1536:( 1521:( 1506:( 1463:( 1423:. 1415:( 1308:( 1231:( 1213:( 1197:( 1167:. 1159:( 887:( 876:— 831:) 829:ᛏ 827:( 793:) 791:ᛏ 789:( 732:) 730:ᛏ 728:( 686:. 319:) 317:ᛏ 315:( 134:) 132:ᛏ 130:( 91:) 89:ᛏ 87:( 50:.

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