Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 40

4269:, I see that you removed "television personality" from the article despite the discussion here. Please stop assuming that anything you disagree with, does not have consensus by definition. Your refusal to accept consensus is starting to be disruptive. This was discussed here at length; I evaluated the discussion and edited the first sentence based on that. We can continue to discuss it here, but is no need to start the discussion all over, or to introduce terms ("billionaire", "CEO") that nobody has suggested up to now. It is frankly dishonest for you to offer 11 choices that don't include "politician" and only one that does, and not even to offer the choice "politician, businessman, television personality and PEOTUS" which appeared to be the consensus here, or the previous wording "politician, businessman, and PEOTUS". I personally wasn't crazy about "television personality" but I bow to consensus; 6 people here suggested it so I added it; if additional discussion shows significant opposition to the term then I will remove it. "Politician" is supported not just by a majority here but by what appears to have been consensus at all the other presidential articles. There also appears to have been consensus, at the other presidential articles, not to clutter up the lede sentence of a president with other activities, unless some other activity was the dominant part of their life and their notability (actor for Reagan, general for Eisenhower). -- 3403:

businessman and is now a politician" because that would be incorrect -- he spent a lifetime being a businessman, in real estate and in publishing/television/etc, and although he is now (also) a politician that does not erase that he is a businessman still. I recommend adding some footnotes with the quotes I linked to above, at the end of the is-now-a-politician portion; that ought to help. But as I mentioned before when this topic came up, I think it is perfectly fine to simply say "is a businessman and potus-elect" which skips the part about being "is a businessman and (is now a politician and) potus-elect" by entirely cutting the transitional-phrase out. After all, it does not matter whether he is now a politician-and-potus-elect, or is now simply the potus-elect... either way, what matters from a

3093:, you have removed it and replaced it with "real estate developer" a second time. Basically because you like it and regardless of what consensus says. This is absolutely against Knowledge policy and particularly against the special rules that are in place at this article. I will explain those rules to you at your talk page. Meanwhile, somebody please remove "real estate developer" which has no consensus at all, restore "politician" which does have consensus in the article above, and fix the invisible comment which Usernamen converted into a POV argument. I have already made this change once so I can't do it again per 1RR, but I request someone to do it. -- 4783:. The trouble is that wikipedia-talkpages are not very conducive to such advanced usage, and setting up securePoll or similar (as is done for the arbcom thing every year) or setting up a physical location (as is done in Maine and San Francisco and other realworld elections), is probably not worth it for a one-off. We could make it work, here on the talkpage, but it would be a bit of a mess getting the mechanics worked out. Probably not something worth attempting on an article like Donald Trump... but then again, *only* controversial articles with difficult disputes need this kind of multi-round-bangvoting, so maybe we 2698:, but I disagree that an "uninvolved closer is required". The "Closure procedure" you cited said that an uninvolved administrator is required for discussion which "are particularly contentious or unclear", and that requests for an independent closer should be made at ANRFC "Where consensus remains unclear, where the issue is a contentious one, or where there are wiki-wide implications." None of those things appear to be the case here. I really think that any one of us, even those who have participated in the discussion, could close this 13-2 discussion, and I encourage you to do so. If you hesitate to do so, I will. -- 4426:

United States" because American and U.S. citizen is redundant. Similarly, the only experience Trump has as a politician is President-elect (and President). Now, I have suggested a thoughtful compromise that is far better prose. That is to separate politician from President-Elect. Just read below. Essentially, it is "Trump is an American real estate developer, businessman, television personality, and politician. He has been designated President-Elect (or similar wording)." Alternatively, "Trump is the President-Elect of the United States. He is an American real estate developer, businessman, etc...".

2453:- yah, this is a noted item, particularly in trying to explain the surprise win, and noting the division oddity about the election that even in the 20 vs 30 states she won like California she lost most of the counties, and/or that even in Republican strongholds like Texas she was surprisingly close, a narrative that it was a strongly cities versus rural division. But really I think this is about the same boat as Electoral vs Popular -- all this stuff should get be in the election article and not the Trump article. But if this article is going to include those items then yes include this part too. 280: 4351:

president articles use the formula "is an American politician who was the XXth President of the United States," but that formula is necessary for them because of the different verbs ("is" vs. "was), and there are some here who strongly oppose a "is.. who is.." formula. So whatever other titles we put in the lede sentence, it should end "... and president-elect of the United States". And there should be only one (businessman) or at most two (television personality seemed to be the most popular) professions listed in addition to "politician". --

1994:(1835) where this French aristocrat praised the nascent United States for their admirable practice of democracy, which frankly the French had botched at the time (bloody revolutions, unstable republics, Napoleon's empire, return of monarchy…). The Electoral College was already there. Direct election by nationwide popular vote is *not* the dominant form of democracy, nor should it be, as it over-represents the already-dominant sectors of a polity. I could quote many faults of the US democratic system; this is not one of them. — 2555:. Yes, some counties have smaller populations, many of the ones Trump won do not. Remember we are writing for an encyclopedia where the more intelligent and inquisitive reader comes for neutral information. If they want a source that preaches to members of their particular choir they can go elsewhere. Anyone who is interested in where the votes came from, and there are no doubt many, would welcome this information, and it can be easily covered with just a statement in the 3864:

November 8, 2016, Trump was elected president...." So they do call him a politician in the subtitle of the page, but they do NOT call him a politician in the introductory sentences. No mention is made of his entertainment sub-career (as personality/actor/producer/author/celeb/whatever). My vote is to either elide politician, and just say businessman and potus-elect, or if we MUST include politician in the intro-prose, to explicitly say that Trump is a businessman and

4400:'s comment makes sense. I believe we have consensus that the sentence should include "businessman" and end with "P(E)OTUS". It currently has "television personality" and "politician" as well, which I would personally remove as being redundant with President (Trump is noted for being the first non-politician to be elected President in U.S. history). Perhaps we could just vote on the inclusion of each term, to avoid juggling 25 options which will lead nowhere? — 2529:. Trump won the electoral college vote and lost the popular vote by 2.5 million, making completely unsubstantiated claims about "millions" of fraudulent voters in the process. Those facts are notable and worthy of inclusion. The fact that Trump won the rural vote and lost the urban vote is worthy of inclusion. The fact that Trump won thousands of counties when many of them have populations smaller than some apartment buildings really isn't notable. 4728:

or the US supplies Iran with aircraft carriers and stealth bombers. Likewise "Trump is an American television personality and President-elect" or "Trump is an author and politician" are both probably not a choice that people would like very much. We must strive very extremely good because like Trump or hate Trump, the presidential biography is supposed to be a good article or featured article eventually. Believe me, Sad! (last part is parody)

31: 2320:, in 2012 it was around~78% for Romney, whereas in 2016 it was around~83% for Trump. I'd be more interested in seeing the totals for Reagan and for FDR, but didn't find those in a quick search (propublica only gives maps sans the datasets that I could tell). Valuable info methinks, but more for an article comparing party strengths across the years, not for a biographical article about one candidate. Of course, I also think the "by over 2 5090:

death. The New York Times correctly called it a mock Tudor but failed to show an accurate photo of the house. The Wikilink for mock Tudor did not look anything like the colonial being showed in the NYTimes article and that is what prompted me to find the correct image. I hope this over explanation is helpful for you. Somewhere down the road, and hopefully soon, this article needs to brought up to at least Good Article standards.

1375:. Actions which the APA once held to be unethical are now a legal mandate in many states. Ethics are not static, and evolve over time given history and experience. In any case, as I have already pointed out several times, the APA does not govern our actions here, and if professionals subject to the APA's tenets and guidelines choose to ignore them and speak out on a particular topic, that may itself be a notable event. 2590:

side in this election. I tend to think any such information, which relates to both candidates, is probably better placed in one of the articles on the election itself, rather than in the biographical articles of any of the individuals involved, unless the factoid is more freakish than virtually any I have seen so far, like, maybe, the first president of an alien species or something like that.

2069:

reside. This info should be welcomed. So far it appears that most of the reasons to block this perspective is because of opinion, i.e."quirkey, fuzzy". We're supposed to be writing for an encyclopedia where the more intelligent and inquisitive reader comes for information, not for 'People' magazine. No solid reason has been presented to exclude this perspective from the Election ' section. --

232: 5066:(ec) SW3, the source you added, Huffpost based on a Realtor's description, says "Tudor". The attached photo does look like some kind of imitation Tudor. Knowledge regards "mock Tudor" and "Tudor revival" as the same thing, since one redirects to the other. In any case there is nothing colonial about it. Thanks for providing a better reference to support "mock Tudor"/"Tudor revival". -- 4467:

very successful a businessman (water, steak, Trump Univ.) other than real estate. So consider "real estate developer, politician, and television personality" unless you want to promote Trump as a bigger than life person. (This commentary should not be construed as support for "politician" if in the same sentence as "President-elect" because of redundancy reasons making it bad prose).

582:

viable to cover Trump's perceived narcissism in Knowledge - as narcissism is not necessarily pathological - more of a character trait. At least two of Trump's Republican rival candidates accused Trump of being a narcissist. I heard Bruce Springsteen in an intervew accusing Trump of being a narcissist. Ideally this narcissism angle deserves a separste section somewhere. --

1717:, which doesn't mean we can't even mention it here. Again main articles and sub articles commonly have a certain amount of informational overlap. We can't keep blocking things in this biography simply on the basis that there is a sub-article for it. If this idea was practiced on such a basis consistently then this biography would be reduced to a few short paragraphs. -- 167:"Knowledge's chosen image of Trump is one that shows smoke coming out of his ear" campaign, thereby further proving Knowledge's out-of-control liberal bias. This is textbook editor overthink. In any case, the smoke "problem" was raised in the RfC and the RfC failed nevertheless. It has received due process and it's time we dropped the infobox image issue, at long last. ― 2496:

Clinton can be mentioned with just a sentence. Why would you want to keep this perspective from the readers? So far the reasons to oppose are wholly academic and opinionated. e.g."not neutral" and the "manufactured" claim seems to be manufactured itself. Again, if this methodology continues and prevails in the narrative we'll have to tag the entire article. --

426:. The latter image provides a better frontal view of Trump's facial features, with his eyes fixed on the camera lens and not elsewhere. This might involve major restructuring of articles due to the change of the unofficial portrait, yet until the official portrait will be released after Trump's inauguration, I believe we will be better off using this image. 4080:(1946-present) is an American television personality and 45th President of the United States" which is clearly a bad decision. Therefore, things have to be taken as a whole. Therefore, I declare that there is NO consensus until there is broad discussion on the whole of the sentence. Sorry to make such declaration but the logic behind it is sound. 1795:. I do not deny that the urban versus popular vote divide is important in an article on the election. But for this article, the fact that more voters wanted someone else is important because it hits at fundamental questions about the legitimacy of Trump's Presidency. Moreover the amount of people who wanted someone else (2.5 million) is historic. 839:

mean-spirited, narcissistic, amoral, intolerant, insulting, bigoted, racist, xenophobic, cheating, lying American politician, businessman, television personality, and President-elect of the United States." That's a good start. If anyone else can come up with other terms to describe what a monster he is, I would welcome those additions too!

793:

certain disability, that will be different. The doctor will specify the disability, document it, and relate it to evidence. In that case, WP can link to the disorder and readers can understand the assertion that's being made. But that's not what's being proposed here. We can't just attach casual language to a person's biography.

4179:– Cleanest and to the point. "Businessman" may be vague but if we want more precision, we's have to list too many activities, which would then have undue weight wrt to his upcoming presidency. The lead section and the article do provide enough coverage of his various business ventures, so that readers can quickly find what 874:

them, so long as per weight we explain the limitations. MEDRS merely prevents us from saying as a fact that someone has NPD. I find however that at present the issue is too trivial to mention in the main article. Many successful politicians and business leaders show symptons of personality disorders,

4742:

As I read you, what you're suggesting would require multiple rounds of !voting, probably at least three, with each round lasting at least a week. The last round should include only the leading two choices. That is the only objective way to "weed out the weakest". I am not opposed to such an approach,

4637:

I am very open minded. There are some who like the word "politician". Rather than fight, I offer a new alternative, alternative 24, which shows I am very open to discussion. Alternate 25 is to write "Trump is an American politician (and other stuff)" but end there. In another sentence, mention Trump

2345:

Ok, thanks. So that suggests that, using the three data points we have, this election merely continued the straight-line trend toward Republican dominance on a county-by-county basis. (72-78-83) In other words, nothing startling or historic. And not a statistic that has been collected, or talked much

1257:

It's more than humor, it actually has a point. It remains to be seen whether comparison to the Hitler article is apt or relevant to this discussion. If Trump starts WW III as a result of his extreme nationalism and thirst for power, committing genocide against millions of Mexicans and Muslims, we can

1199:

discusses various views of health professionals that Hitler suffered from e.g. borderline personality disorder and a long list of other conditions, even though these health professionals didn't personally examine him. In the case of a President of the United States, or another hugely important leader

3775:

As for what else to include: there is a strong consensus in favor of "businessman", with "television personality" also having a strong showing. There were several proposals for "real estate developer", but "businessman" has more supporters, and I doubt if we want to include both since they basically

2780:

so formal closure is not required. I will just summarize, acknowledging my own role as a discussant: This discussion ran for 10 days and has had no additional comments for the last 5 days. Consensus is clear: by my count there are 14 saying "don't include this information" and 3 saying "include it."

2495:

Facts are neutral in of themselves. Where are you getting "manufactured statistic" from? (Answer please.) Again, mentioning the counties Trump won are an informative demographic revealing to the reader that many of Clinton's votes came from urban and inner city areas. The 'counties won' by Trump and

2431:

Except that the popular vote 1) has only given a different result from the Electoral College (and thus actual) result five times in the history of the Republic, and 2) is being widely, widely reported - as opposed to this county stuff, which may have been mentioned here or there when the pundits ran

1594:

Yes, though Clinton's counties are a majority of the population and 2/3 of the GDP (not all counties are created equal, after all). But none of that is here nor there. Getting into the weeds of who voted how and where might be appropriate to one of the election sub-articles, but I can't imagine it

775:

The Goldwater Rule governs the actions of psychiatric professionals, not editors of encyclopediae or the press generally. If, hypothetically, psychiatric professionals are sufficiently alarmed by their observations of our subject to speak out and risk censure by their profession, and those opinions

633:

OK. Analogies aside, WP should be reporting rather than predicting Pres. Trump's performance and judgment. So, for example, we might cite sources that document experts' concern that he declines to attend presidential security/intelligence briefings and explains this by saying he's "a smart guy". On

110:

I know a section above, now closed, was discussing the photo, but maybe it's worth mentioning again and in its own section that the image used on most of the Trump articles and templates here is, because of the illusion of Trump "blowing smoke out his ear", just this side of ridiculous. Once you see

5039:

After puzzling over this for almost 2 hours, I can only guess that you misread me. Especially given my last sentence, I thought it was clear enough that I propose removal of the mention of the house's style. That's been there for some time and, unless you added it, that suggestion is not about your

4727:

That type of thinking resulted in Trump getting elected. Instead 25 options, think of 10 more. Then weed out the weakest. You'll be more likely to get a better result than a very short list for a complex issue. That would be like the Iranian nuclear issue; you only have two choices, an Iranian bomb

4544:

Support the preceding, contrary to my earlier statement. The fact that "politician" is most recent does not make it most important in the totality of his life, especially considering that he will very likely cease being a politician in 4 or 8 years. Also, since "PEOTUS" is obviously an abbreviation

4286:

I was accused by MelanieN immediately above of being "frankly dishonest". She didn't bother to expand on choice 13 so I will. Sorry if anyone misinterpreted my oversight (normal definition, not Knowledge jargon) of other possibilities. So there are 10 choices listed with "politician" and anyone can

4099:

To resolve this matter, there should be discussion as to the entire sentence, not just vote on individual titles in a vacuum. I will be so bold as to state that "President-elect" (to be replaced by "45th President of the United States") is an absolute requirement to any reasonable solution so it is

2589:

as possibly well-intentioned highlighting of a "first" factoid. There have only ever been, I think, 60 (?) U.S. Presidential elections. That being the case, it seems to me that any reporter willing to expend the time and effort to find them would be able to find some "first" of some sort for either

1414:

If a certain country requires health care professionals to behave in a certain way, that has no bearing on whether Knowledge can report on their views. Analysis of personality traits of influential world leaders is quite common (the US government for example has evaluated Putin from a mental health

515:

More to the point, Muboshgu, hard-fought consensuses should stand uncontested for awhile so we can get other things done. In this case, "awhile" reasonably means until the official portrait is released, even if that takes four months. With respect, your question, by inviting responses and responses

4928:

The NYTimes article that is being used as a source for the type of home Donald Trump grew up in, does not appear correct. This architecture style is not Tudor or mock Tudor. It seems very much colonial. I would like to remove the description of the house altogether, as it isn't accurate and uses a

4633:

In the heated discussion, we have forgotten that some have advocated very redundant prose. We should all agree that "Trump is an American businessman, business person, and President-elect" is stupid because businessman and person are nearly the same. Now think of Trump's politician role. Was he US

4503:

In case I wasn't clear: I consider the new proposal of 12 options, most of them brand new and all of them completely ignoring the previous discussion, to be an unhelpful distraction. I encourage people to ignore these new options rather than try to choose among them. Commentary on the current lede

4466:

When others agree on the wisdom on the 2 sentence structure to avoid redundancy, then you can debate the order of the professions, be it time spent, prestige, achievements, etc. To me, that is a much smaller issue. Businessman actually gives Trump more credit than deserves because he hasn't been a

4439:

Not only does the 2 sentence structure eliminate redundancy within the same sentence but President-Elect is a title while the others are professions. That avoids a valid argument that the sentence reads "Trump is the former CEO of the Trump Organization, executive producer of Celebrity Apprentice,

4183:

of a businessman he has been. "Politician" is indeed redundant with "President" and not an accurate description of his activity prior to this election campaign (he did dabble in politics by giving his opinion on political issues but he never acted in a political role, the closest to that being his

3693:

served in the military." Eisenhower, Washington, and Grant had never held public office, but they had served in the military. Many others never served in the military, but held public office. Trump appears to be the first with NEITHER in his background. And in any case, this does not belong in the

3611:

There are certain things that are of interest to the reader or a noteworthy fact. One is that Obama is the first African American president. Trump is a president (or will be) who has never held political office before. That is more informative than to argue that all presidents are politicians and,

3402:

we have this fairly unambiguous quote: "I've gotten to know the people of the country over the last year and a half that I've been doing this as a politician. I cannot believe I'm saying that about myself, but I guess I have been a politician,...." To be clear, I don't think we should say "was a

1528:

We would have to include not only the statistic but also the reason why (that writer feels) it's significant: "The president-elect accomplished something unprecedented by ranking in the top three most popular candidates while maintaining a drastic county-level lead over Clinton." My opinion: Yawn.

1238:

Internet humour terms aside, it is perfectly legitimate to point out that under Knowledge policies, it is perfectly legitimate to include professional views on the character traits and/or mental health of a world leader, as long as those views are adequately (which means very extensively in such a

976:

should not "engage in this". That is not the question. The question is whether we should reflect reliable, published sources quoting experts (assuming there are experts) who have already done so, whether or not we as editors perceive their having done so as ethical behavior. This seems to me to

581:

I have come across hundreds of newspaper articles and intervews where the claim is made that Trump is a narcissist and/or has NPD. In newspapers, many psychiatric professionals have diagnosed Trump as having NPD. It is difficult to avoid this angle when discussing Trump. Surely it must at least be

166:

Yeah, I never noticed that until someone pointed it out (and Kryn, you commented in the RfC that you didn't either). I think we're fine provided (1) we don't add the caption, "Trump with blurred text behind him that is not smoke coming out of his ear" and (2) Trump supporters don't go viral with a

5089:

I found a source for the actual house, not the image of somebody's else's house that the NYTimes article shows. That's not Trump's house from his childhood. The HuffPost has the correct house and it is indeed the house Trump grew up in, and in fact, his mother continued to live there up until her

4374:

There is a problem with politician being redundant because the only political office Trump has had is the Presidency. Other Knowledge articles are different because the individual had numerous political offices before (Senator or Governor, mayor, etc.) and were career politicians. This problem is

3817:

I don't know why that is so important to you, that you feel obliged to get it into the lede sentence. It's true that Trump's supporters like to think of him as "not a politician", because that is how he ran (at least at first) - but he unquestionably is one now. Eisenhower's article does not make

3771:

Conclusions: In addition to the numerical preference at this discussion for including "politician," we should consider the longstanding consensus that must lie behind the inclusion of "politician" in the lede sentence of every other president - even those who, like Eisenhower, spent most of their

3722:

Usernamen1 challenged my claim that there is consensus for "businessman, politician, and the President-elect of the United States", and no other titles. So I reviewed all the discussions up to now (primarily "Titles for Trump" but also several later ones). I also counted it where I could identify

2068:

The vast majority of the country is comprised of counties. Consensus can't go against policy, esp NPOV. The national media, used to cite "denial" claims, didn't think it was "fuzzy" and presented the idea as a revealing demographic which helps to explain where most of Trump's and Clinton's voters

2047:

Counties enormously vary in physical size (28 sq mi to 20,000 sq mi) as well as population (82 to 9.8 million). Some counties contain multiple cities, some no cites, New York City (not counting suburbs) is in five counties. Over 100 counties have a larger population than the state of Wyoming. Two

1096:

Frist's "diagnosis" of Schiavo should be treated as dubious at best (I haven't read the article to see how it's framed). But it was a major event in the situation, and has weight. Armchair psychiatrists talking about Trump's narcissism should have no weight, because they don't have any bearing on

4350:

I agree. Most of these proposals are non-starters. Here's the situation: President-elect needs to be in the first sentence. It is the most important thing about him right now. In a month it will be "45th president of the United States" which also has to go in the lede sentence. Most of the other

4068:

The word "politician" is over used and redundant. Many users for the term have written or implied that all Presidents are politicians. If so, then choose either President or politician and use one. Since President is more precise and accurate, that should be used. In fact, unless one is a career

3897:

Not quite correct: Trump has in fact made it clear that he would totally stop being involved in his real estate empire, letting his executives and children fully manage the Trump businesses and brands. I still think he should be called a businessman, as he intends to run the United States like a

3352:

He ran for political office, took part in numerous political debates, is filling political positions, will hold the highest political office in the US, is talking to political leaders around the world – at some point you don’t keep saying your aren’t a politician. And yes the term has pejorative

3148:

Thanks, Objective. Usernamen, consensus doesn't mean unanimity. It means that it has to be discussed and consensus reached. The fact that it gets changed (usually by people who haven't read and didn't participate in the discussion) does not overrule a consensus on the talk page. And it certainly

873:

Quite a number of articles were written about Trump and NPD, including articles about why mental health professionals cannot and should not diagnose people they have not examined. Whether or not the issue should have been raised, it was, and therefore there are no MEDRS objections to mentioning

792:

If it governs the professionals who would be considered competent experts and they violate this principle then WP should not consider their casual statements to be expert statements suitable for an encyclopedia. This just sounds like a smear. It's name-calling. If his doctor tells us he has a

696:

is both a clinical term and a popular one, and the popular definition is not always consistent with the clinical definition, I would say that no, their claims do not belong in the article as the speakers are not psychiatric professionals and hence are unqualified to make a clinical diagnosis. I

4425:

A few days ago, I explained a new proposal of a two sentence structure in a subsection below. There is not a consensus nor is it logical to have "politician" and "president-elect" in the same sentence. It would be similar to writing "Trump is an American politician, author, and a citizen of the

3051:

That could either mean that there is a consensus not to have it, agents of the Trump campaign are doing it, agents of the Hillary campaign are doing it, the Russians are doing it, or, as mentioned, there is Knowledge consensus not to do it. I don't have strong feelings either way but am leaning

2909:

But then ALL US presidents would be politicians. If so, then it is redundant. It would be like saying "Bill Clinton was an American President of the United States." or "Bill Clinton was President-Elect and President of the United States". Perhaps a good way to decide if all Presidents should be

2774:"Many informal discussions do not need closing. Often, consensus is reached in the discussion and the outcome is obvious…. When a discussion involves many people and the outcome is not clear, it may be necessary to formally close the discussion…. It may be useful to close Requests for comments." 2324:

millions votes" stuff is pretty silly for a biography article on the opposing candidate; the numeric value is not very relevant, since if the rules were different then the campaigns would have been run differently and the outcome under such counterfactual conditions is pretty much impossible to

4079:

Each individual word cannot realistically achieve consensus because the final product must be seen. MelanieN writes that she (assuming that Melanie is not a "he" using a typically female user name) think "television personality" has consensus. That could cause the article to read "Donald Trump

3863:

They subtitle their article "Donald Trump: American real-estate developer and politician" but that subtitle-bit is not visible in the URL, and then in the body-prose they only say "Donald Trump, American real-estate developer who . He was the Republican Party nominee for president in 2016. On

3657:

And that fourth paragraph lede sentence is full of errors. It claims Trump is the first individual not to have been in public office. How about George Washington? Remember him? The sentence says that Trump is the only one with no military service. Remember General Barack Obama or Admiral Bill

811:

Please define "casual" (a term you just introduced) in this context. We are not talking about comments a psychiatrist may have made to their barber. If published in mainstream sources, risking, as others have proposed, possible censure by the profession, I would not regard such statements as

1140:

People, dont get bogged down on the NPD angle. The narcissism angle is more promising for Knowledge. Narcissism is more of a character trait and is not necessarily pathological. It's quite legitimate to talk about Trump's perceived narcissism. This has nothing to do with giving him diagnostic

2743:

editor may close most discussions, not just admins," emphasis theirs. 2. The "contentious or unclear" reference is about requests at ANRFC. Consensus is not about numbers, and it's at least theoretically possible that 2 editors could have stronger arguments than 13 others, hence the need for

2275:

An additional problem here is lack of context. Do we know how the counties split in 2012? In 2008, 2004, 2000? Do we know if this result is unusual or commonplace? Personally I suspect they ALWAYS split heavily toward the Republican candidate; that's just the nature of our electorate and our

1759:

Winning the vast majority of the counties across the nation is a fact, and a revealing demographic, as is the popular vote. "Not important" is an opinion. If such facts are reported nationally by numerous reliable sources than we can do so. We'll need more than personal opinion to block this

4375:

solved for Trump if politician is not in the same sentence as President-Elect. Since MelanieN want "president" to be the first sentence, then it should be (for good prose) "Trump (1946- ) is the President-Elect of the United States. He is an American plumber, artist, politician, whatever."

1391:

That's one viewpoint, and not wrong on its face. Another is that mental health professionals are not created equal, and those who show disregard for established ethical guidelines of their own profession should not be treated as reliable sources. The statements are notable for their lack of

1630:

In the first place, this is meaningless. We do vote by states, but we do not vote by counties (some of which have a larger population that some states). In the second place, this statistic has not been widely reported by Reliable Sources and thus does not meet our guidelines for inclusion.

719:

everyone who tries to be leader of a country is a puppet or a narcissist, sometimes maybe both. Idiot "psychologists" think this is some breaking news or genius insight, "people who see themselves as the one person able to lead millions of other people have high view of themselves". wow!!!

4534:

I'd support this list although a bit long to my taste. However, I would submit that the natural order should be "businessman, TV personality, politician and PEOTUS". Seeing him labeled "politician" first is a bit jarring considering the reality of his life up until his recent campaign. —

3464:

What is your proposal - that we don't say "politician" now but we do in a month? We have seen numerous links to where he himself said he guesses he is now a politician. He has spent the past year-and-a-half running for elective office, which even he has to admit is a political activity.

838:

I agree completely. Also, many respected sources consider him "mean spirited" and immoral, so we should include that as well. These traits define the man, so they should be in the first sentence... I propose: "Donald John Trump (US Listeni/ˈdɒnəld dʒɒn trʌmp/; born June 14, 1946) is a

2023:

Editorial discretion via consensus is what determines what goes in the article. This quirky piece of data has almost zero relevance to Trump's bio because elections are not decided by who won the most counties, the most cities, or the most corn fields. This is nothing more than trivia.-

1194:

This has been widely discussed by reliable sources for a long time, and it's clearly relevant and should be included. The question is not whether to include it, but how we best do it. It is not unethical in any way to analyze the world's most influential people; for example the article

3066:

Please omit the conspiracy theories. Consensus rules here. As for Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenegger, you will find "politician" in the lede sentence of both of their articles. "Politician" is not an insult. It is simply what we call someone who runs for and wins elective office.

1282:. As any serious person can see from the above comment, the issue is not a general comparison of Trump and Hitler or a comparison of their policies, but whether Knowledge can include analysis of personality traits and mental health of very powerful world leaders. The answer is yes, 2940:

but I have proposed adding it, to be in line with the other such articles. As for why we have both "politician" and "president": politician is a description of what they do (like artist or teacher or actor), which we always put in the lede sentence. President is a temporary title.

616:

That is an apples to oranges comparison. Small hands presumably would not significantly affect the president-elect's performance and judgment as president. Narcissism and NPD most certainly could be expected to do so, presumably what the sources mentioned by the OP are saying.

4160:

There may be some merit to "CEO of a privately held company" because that can result in a different personality than one that leads one to become a CEO of a publicly traded Fortune 500 company like Microsoft or Chevron. This is an unorthodox wording and probably not my favorite.

3375:

I think Usernamen1 has struck something useful... part of the problem with the current phrasing is that we say "Trump *is* a businessman and politician who became potus-elect." But we could instead give the readership some temporal clues, and say "Trump is a businessman and

3179:

What compromise prose might be more accurate is that he became a politician late in life after a life long real estate career. That would differentiate him and inform the reader better compared to someone who held political office for 3 decades and is the career politician.

760:

And, as KMilos says above, there’s nothing surprising about a presidential candidate being narcissistic. (Personally, I think anyone that wants to be president, shouldn’t be allowed.) Also, NPD sounds like a mental illness, when I think it’s really just a character formation.

3393:

And a quick search turns up that, at least as late as February 2016, Trump was still of two minds about the designation: "It takes guts . Especially if you're not a politician. Now, I'm not a politician, thank goodness. I guess now I am but I'm not, OK? I don't want to be a

4668:

Donald John Trump (Listeni/ˈdɒnəld dʒɒn trʌmp/; born June 14, 1946) is an American real estate developer, businessman, television personality and politician. He is expected to take office as (change to "became" later) the 45th President of the United States on January 20,

4219:

This is evidence of inflexibility, battleground behavior, and being prone to edit warring. Consensus is achieved either falsely (by wearing out other editors and chasing them away) or by being able to live with more than only your opinion and choice. Scjessey writing that

4629:

MelanieN call to ignore options is stifles true consensus. By considering the sentence in totality, there may be a true consensus. Considering only one word at a time risks a lop-sided result, such as "Trump is a TV personality and President-elect of the United States."

4519:

I fully support the latter: "American politician, businessman, television personality, and President-elect of the United States." It ticks all boxes, it's neutral, well supported by sources and consistent with other articles on presidents and politicians in general. --

4014:

I think we have consensus for "television personality" (a less loaded word than celebrity) and I will add it. As for putting "politician" first, it's true that is what was done at other similar articles such as Eisenhower and Reagan, and I will make that change also.

3798:

I disagree with the conclusion that there is a consensus for politician. There is no consensus but a slightly higher vote for politician. There is also more votes for TV personality than real estate developer but he done far more as a real estate developer than a TV

2892:. I'm surprised this was not already in the article, since he effectively became a politician as soon as he began campaign, and particularly after winning an election and appointing staff. He's also run for office before, so this is fundamentally a no-brainer. -- 875: 4224:

that makes any sense is the wrong type of behavior. Even though I do not believe that "politician" is appropriate, there are certain combinations that would be more sensible than others. I will explain at the end of this section and not insert it in the middle.

2989:

I just looked up a 4th presidential article, Andrew Jackson. He is an American soldier and statesman, not listed as "politician". In addition, Jackson is controversial and hated by some, like Trump. In fact, Jackson is going to be expelled from the $ 20 bill.

755:

See the . Basically this states that one should not opine on the psychiatric makeup of a person you haven’t examined, and without authorization. So, we have a problem on quoting experts in the field of psychology on this subject as they might be violating the

4504:

sentence "American politician, businessman, and President-elect of the United States", or the one Usernamen deleted "American politician, businessman, television personality, and President-elect of the United States", or other tweaks, can continue below. --

2640:

After 14 days, I count 13–2 Oppose, not counting the OP who did not make an argument. Unless someone wants to claim that those 2 have stronger arguments than the 13, and request an uninvolved closer, I will close this in a day or two as "consensus to omit".

111:

that it can't be unseen, and although I appreciate the lol quality (and I do lol often when seeing it) and the surrealistic and social commentary made by the perceived image, I think it really should be deleted from not only those pages, but from the site.

2821:

In that case, "consensus is not about numbers" is a widely-held misconception and I stand corrected. I concede that it would be impractical to uninvolved-close every discussion that reached a consensus, but the p&g would benefit from clarification on

2304:

farmer), with *repubs* being the urban-coast-party -- NYC was a repub stronghold until "recently". The counties-won-percentage is an indicator of party strength more than candidate-strength (especially at the state-by-state-level), but can sometimes be

3919:

He's been in business for nearly a half-century, continues to talk about his businesses, they will be run by people he has appointed, he will continue to profit from them, and they are not going into a blind trust. Hard to avoid the word businessman.

597:

I don't see how this adds encyclopedic content to the article, no matter how many people believe it. It's not like observing that FDR was in a wheelchair -- closer to when Rubio indicated Trump's small hands, for which the Senator later apologized.

3941:

This really isn't difficult, guys. We have plenty of reliable sources to back up every conceivable permutation, so it falls upon us to find a consensus for language that seems appropriate. I would argue that we need only those descriptions that are

672:"any psychiatric professionals" is a very general description of those who may have made this claim. Are there any acknowledged experts on NPD who have done so? This would have to be extremely well sourced and presented neutrally, presumably with 2972:

If you look at those three articles, you will see the word "politics" used liberally. Perhaps when Trump goes down in history to the extent of these three, you will see a different description at the top of his BLP. (Sorry, that was a tad snarky.)

3175:

Rather that say "is", "is not", "is so", "is not", I've thought of another idea. Trump is definitely not a career politician. The people in Africa or a little kid in America might get the wrong idea if we call Trump a politician and businessman.

2611:

of Hawaii, which has only 89 people, will have just as much weight in county count as Los Angeles County, which has 10.17 million people. Also, inclusion of number of counties won does not make sense geographically, as the smallest county by area

4634:

Senator from New York? Was he New York City Mayor? Was he First Lady in drag? No! Trump's only political job has been President-elect. So to say "Trump is an American politician, ..... and President-elect" is redundant and, therefore, bad prose.

3882:

But not "was" a businessman. He has made it clear he will continue to be a businessman while in the White House. But I note that Reagan and Eisenhower do not make the distinction between "formerly" an actor or general, and "later" a politician.

634:

the other hand an encyclopedia should not present subjective assessments of his cognitive or emotional processes, e.g. he doesn't value expert advice because he has narcissist personality disorder, where they don't add to the factual narrative.

2561:

section which is rather short to begin with. To be fair and neutral we need more than the claim that this info is "not notable" from those so intent on blocking this information, esp since there is a section dedicated to Trump's election. --

187:

Yes, I didn't notice it until it was pointed out in the Rfc, but then there it was. I don't really care, and actually like it like that, but am thinking of the site rep. Dropping it now though (but it will still make me smile when I see it).

4704:

I think we would be very lucky to get a 25% plurality out of 25 options, and no option with 75% opposed can be considered a consensus. Exercise in futility proving, once again, the age-old wisdom that "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

3004:

How about "all U.S. presidents from the past 200 years", would that be more acceptable? I haven't personally checked all of them, it's possible one or two omit it. But things - politics - were rather different in this country 200 years ago.

5218:

So it makes sense that he was born in this house built just 6 years before his birthdate, doesn't it? And possibly the family moved to the upscale house a few years later, which makes both sources correct, although conflating them would be

4072:

The word "businessman" is accurate but overly broad. The term "businessman" could apply to everyone from billionaire Bill Gates to some Uber driver. That is why further specification, whether billionaire or real estate developer is useful.

1787:. However, the commentary is about the division within the US. The fact that more voters wanted Clinton has been produced multiple pieces of commentary regarding the legitimacy of the EC and the fact that the result is undemocratic. See, 1011:

So we should not report on published statements by experts when we as editors think they should have known better than to make them? I can see a whole lot of recovered disk space once this principle has been applied to the entire Wiki.

3540:. "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought ... and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom ... to manifest his religion or belief...." Universal Declaration of Human Rights art. 18. -- 1983:

At first I thought you were partisan, now it occurs to me that you may just be uneducated, which is an easier problem to solve. If you are an American citizen, go read about the history of your country. If you are not, I recommend

1288:. There are many other articles on world leaders which include this kind of analysis too. The insistence of some editors that the experts cited are required to have examined the world leader personally is a form of IDONTLIKEIT. -- 948:

Speaking as a licensed mental health professional, it is highly unethical to make or suggest a diagnosis like this from watching him on teevee. You'd need a legitimate diagnostic interview to do this. It's no more acceptable than

4481:

Whether we write this with two sentences instead of one, there will still be a debate about calling Trump a politician independently of his presidential campaign and election. We should settle that before optimizing the prose. —

1176:

Exactly! It's totally inappropriate to speculate upon and politically motivated. Perhaps reminding the Hillary partisans about all of the things that could go into her article in this vein is a good approach to this discussion.

4047:

Not true because Jeb Bush had far more name recognition in the primaries. The TV show "Apprentice" did not cause Trump to be President. Trump's name on so many buildings helped him as did his Twitter outburst. Believe me, Sad!

5129:

I fixed the botched cite and kept both houses; the family may have moved, as the smaller house is described as his "birthplace" whereas the other article mentions anecdotes from his childhood linked to the larger house. —

4680:) 07:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC) Absent reading any clear and convincing alternative, the bolded text is not my favourite but appears to address some of the redundancy concerns that I alerted the Knowledge audience about. 3779:

There were quite a few people favoring "television personality" - as many as favored politician. Should we add that, to make it "businessman, television personality, politician, and President-elect of the United States"?

2910:

called politicians is to discuss this with some WikiProject. It would be more useful to Knowledge if those with a series of political offices or long standing political office becomes noted as a politician in Knowledge.

4606:

You are correct that Trump has been quasi non-stop "politicking" since he launched his campaign, however that still amounts to 18 months of his 70-year life. Not the dominant thing for his overall biography page. As an

734:

I would agree with you that some degree of narcissism is a typical trait of government leaders. I assume that the sources referred to by the OP are indicating that the degree of narcissism reflected by our subject is

3494:

this is up for debate. Since the moment he threw his hat in the ring, Trump has been a politician. He has done fundraising, written policy, received lobbying, run for office and won his election. He is a politician by

4411:

I respectfully disagree that there is even consensus on the above, although near-consensus is possible at this moment. The 25 options may seem unwieldy at first but looking at things in totality is more accurate than

1876:

To say that a process that allows someone with less votes to assume an office is undemocratic is a statement of fact. The power of the office and the amount of the difference(2.5 million) makes that fact historic and

776:

are reported by reliable, published sources, we should be doubly prepared to include this information in our article. We do not have any responsibility to protect published speakers from the effects of their speech.

2296:

Repubs have won supermajorities of the counties in recent decades, since they are currently the preferred party of the non-urban-core voter (broad brush here), but historically the dems were that party (e.g. dem-nom

649:

The encyclopedia should be prepared to present "subjective assessments of his cognitive or emotional processes" made by and attributed to acknowledged experts in the field, and should not suppress these opinions.

1200:

of a country, the material is so overwhelming that it is possible for experts to offer professional opinions, and in this case, those opinions have received more than sufficient coverage in reliable sources. --

3802:

I see that many want to call him politician so a compromise would be to state very, very early in the article lead that "Trump is a politician who had never served elected public office until the Presidency".

4671:

See how less redundant that is compared to "Donald Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American real estate developer, businessman, television personality, politician, and President-elect of the United States"?

1936:

Even in a British style first past the post election system, it would be extremely rare for the party that received less votes to elect the PM. With the type of margin in this election, it would not happen.

139:

I don't mean to be that guy, but no, we cannot selectively remove something in an image that was actually there in reality. It's text on the background behind the subject, not dust, red eye, or scratches.-

2665:, an uninvolved closer is required. These things often just go to archive without a declaration of consensus, and then are cited later as showing consensus, but I feel that practice just invites conflict. 4311:

16 American real estate developer, businessman, television personality, politician and President-elect of the United States (this order reflects the time spent doing each with the longest tenure first)

516:

to those responses, effectively re-opens an issue that has been resolved. I submit that my comment was all that was necessary or appropriate, and I wouldn't object if someone else hatted this thread. ―

152:

I never thought that looked like smoke coming out of his ear. We're going to get a new, official White House photo of him in a little over a month. That will go in the infobox. Until then, patience. –

1922:

Read the first sentence. Parliamentary governments are democratic. But, the people do not directly elect the PM. Governments where the head of state is directly elected by a popular vote are rare.

1713:

section, made for the express purpose of covering the election and notable topics related to it? In main articles we cover the notable facts -- if there is a sub-article for the topic, we cover it

1702: 697:

would stay away from trying to make a distinction here between "perceived narcissism" and the clinical term, as that is a very slippery slope. We have an article for that, which is constrained by

2552: 3380:

politician who became potus-elect." Trump refused to *consistently* classify himself as a politician, throughout most of his campaign, but at several points gave explicit self-identification:

4184:

two prior floated presidential runs which didn't materialize). Also you forgot "businessman, television personality and President-elect" as a viable option (which would be my second choice). —

2171:

Thanks, O'3000. Yes, other factors must be considered besides 'democracy'. Like NPOV, policy overall, balance and inclusion of 'all' the important facts. Seems like several are missing in the

3962:- whichever people prefer). The latter is important because it is his status as a TV personality that gave him the name recognition he needed to get his campaign rolling in the first place. 197:

I never noticed it, but I have noticed a YEAR of arguments about the infobox photo. I hope it stops when Trump is president, but maybe it won't. Maybe the fact is that he's not photogenic.--

554:

Hatting. This is nothing but armchair psychology and borderline BLP violations. We are not going to be including any of this in the article and the discussion is venturing far afield. --

4944:

Correct or not, it doesn't seem very relevant whether the house was mock Tudor, colonial, ranch, or Greek Revival. It might be significant if the style were American Shanty-Town Hovel.

4453:

I am editing for Knowledge integrity and good articles, which is why I raise these redundancy issues. Don't oppose me but oppose bad prose that is not apparent to the non-critical eye.

1066:

Did I say that? Given the way the Schiavo situation transpired, that was a major event in the timeline. People suggesting Trump has NPD fits nowhere in the timeline of major events. –

4314:

17 American billionaire, real estate developer, businessman, television personality, politician and President-elect of the United States (this might reflect what people think of him)

2276:

geography. In any case, this statistic is worthless without any information about whether it is historic or routine. That's in addition to the fact that it means nothing anyhow. --

1028:

These experts are not expert on Trump, if they haven't had a one-on-one diagnostic interview with him. Which I doubt. Otherwise they're speculating and arm-chair psycholigizing. –

3658:

Clinton or Captain Herbert Hoover who served in the military (none of them did)? There are probably more that didn't serve in the military. I am ashamed of this Knowledge article.

3052:

towards not having it because Trump is among the people with the least rationale to be given the occupation of politician, along with Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarz-whatever.

4816: 4775:. There are a few municipal elections that are IRV, and just a few months ago Maine passed legislation to use a form of ranked-choice voting. We could also use the kind of 3776:

describe the same activity - with "businessman" also including his numerous other business activities such as branded products, beauty pageants, football, wrestling, etc.).

1371: 336:

I am not aware of this fact or any RS supporting this. As far back as the 1980s he has been involved in the Republican party and described by commentators as a conservative.

3033:

It WAS in the article (see the section above, "Titles for Trump"). People keep removing it and adding other things. It's supposed to be just "businessman and politician". --

1306:? I don't see that. Plenty of negative things said about her have been covered (adequately) in reliable sources, and yet have been omitted from the article on the basis of 2250:

This sounds like a way to make it seem like the election was a blowout for Trump, when it wasn't. Not every county has the same population. According to the 2010 census,

4076:

The use of the word "television personality" is a small part of Trump's occupation. Again, this would be undue weight if not balanced with what Trump's occupation is.

1156:

In that case, it's politically-motivated name-calling. If we go down that road, much work is needed in other politicians' articles, starting with Hillary Clinton. ―

419: 1574:

There are numerous items in the biography where we don't express "the reason why that writer feels it's significant". Also, this is not "gossip", this is fact. --

2048:

states don't even have any counties. Historically, a county was a jurisdiction under a count. Basically, the term is too fuzzy to have any statistical meaning.

1243:

and I suspect we will very soon have a similar article devoted to Trump as well, as this topic appears to be a huge one with very extensive discussion in RS. --

423: 263:

I'd like to change the picture of Donald Trump to make it look more presidential and professional unlike his current portrait which looks mediocre and unkempt.

4585:

defining characteristic. Since he announced his campaign, he's been a constantly politicking politician, with all other roles being more or less sidelined. --

4323:

20 American politician, television personality, author educator, real estate developer, author, educator, businessman, and President-elect of the United States

3320:". What is he doing right now, if not actively (preparing to) conduct the business of a government? What will he be doing for the next 4 years, if not that? -- 5108:

P.S. And looking back at the old NYT reference it clearly does show a colonial house. Either the NYT photographed the wrong house, or the Realtor is lying. --

4069:

politician, all the Presidential biographies should not have the word "politician". Anyone may copy this comment to other Presidential talk page biographies.

3381: 2958:

I just looked up 3 presidents and find that none of those 3 have the title "politician" in the lede. See George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson.

2415:

Isn't this equivelent to the providing the popular vote? Both are meaningless regarding this election as a whole, but both help understand the election.

3723:

someone who made a change in the article but did not discuss. Note that these discussions are "not a vote" and strength of argument is also important.

1792: 1686: 3400: 1351:

Generally decades or centuries after their death and with a thorough examination of their time in office. Certainly not before they’ve taken office.

4638:

is President-elect. That way, it provides further description, not a redundant sentence. Which sentence comes first should be an easier discussion.

2326: 2924:

All U.S. presidents ARE politicians, as are all elected officeholders, and all presidents are already described as such in the lede sentence. See

2218:

would be better imho. But I've not seen this county factoid widely covered by the RS, unlike the popular vote. On that alone, inclusion would be

1788: 3503: 1950:

And it is rare here, which is why it's important to mention the pop vote in the lead. In Israel, it's not at all rare. But, were getting into

4767:

No, it is quite objectively possible to get a settled answer from five options, or even 25 options(!), in a single round of voting, by using

4980:, you do not own this article. The idea is to work together to make the article better, not deride someone's comments or dog their edits. 3675:

The proposal is to amend that sentence and say that Trump was a politician that had never held elected public office before the Presidency.

3398: 4788: 4150:

11 American CEO of a privately held company that has significant real estate exposure, politician, and President-elect of the United States

4126:

3 American television personality and President-elect of the United States (the result that may happen if MelanieN's analysis is followed).

3869: 3408: 3388: 2328: 1784: 1513: 2112:

So if five editors want to put a picture of Santa Clause in place of Trump's picture and three do not... Ho ho ho?? I don't think so. --

1353:

The insistence of some editors that the experts cited are required to have examined the world leader personally is a form of IDONTLIKEIT.

404: 3183:

Similarly, we don't call Trump an author or a hotelier because even though he's done it, it has been a small time portion of his life.

2862:

Why did you archive the entry on pronunciation, which doesn't have any answers at all? Since Trump himself clearly doesn't exhibit the

2312: 1816:

Knowledge is not the place to call the US electoral process "undemocratic". This is outrageous and totally undermines your argument. —

3316:

Mandruss, according to "your dictionary", a politician (#1 definition) is " a person experienced in the art or science of government;

2867: 1736:

Not important for this article. For this article, the facts needed are: 1. He won EC. 2. More voters (2.5 million) voted for Clinton.

1483:

Clear consensus that the county information is undue in Trump's bio. Such details are in the 2016 election page, where they belong. —

3202:

a politician anywhere in the article, let alone in the first paragraph, and getting elected doesn't make the difference in my view. ―

1990: 2617: 1240: 344: 3450:" to become a politician on January 20, see lead sentence 2. The lead graf may accordingly be tagged for "confusing or unclear". -- 3385: 4747:

guarantee a consensus at the end of that period. If that's what we're doing, we should stop diddling around and get it started. ―

4141:

8 American real estate developer, author, educator, businessman, television personality, and President-elect of the United States

1611:

Los Angeles County has 9.8 million residents. Loving County in Texas has 82 residents. Difficult to find meaning is such a stat.

3583:" this is up for debate has rather little to do with the discussion, actually. You brought it up, not me (I just supported your 2781:

I will exclude my own !vote and tally 13 to 3. That is a clear consensus against including this particular item in the article.

1119:

If professionals speculate without examination, we should give it as much weight and article space as if I did so. I.e., none. ―

1052:

article mentions that Bill First diagnosed Terri Schiavo on the Senate floor. Are you going to remove that from that article?

4945: 4929:

wiki link that is no where near close to what that house looks like. The edit would still mention the street and neighborhood.

3818:

that distinction, not ANYWHERE in the lede section, even though he had never held elective office before becoming president. --

3499:

definition of the word. I can't see any reason to exclude this obvious description. And in case anyone is concerned, there are

3387:

There is actually a Reliable Source which has considered whether or not potus-elect Trump is, or is not, actually a politician.

2739:

What you describe may or may not be common practice, but it's not how I read the above-linked guidance. 1. It begins with "Any

1504:

This must be included as well: Donald Trump Won 2,600 Counties Compared To Clinton’s 500, Winning 83% Of The Geographic Nation.

914: 4664:

This is an innovative and also logical idea. It would generate about 10 more options, making it 35 options. Here is a sample.

3506: 3293: 2251: 4132:

5 American billionaire, real estate developer, businessman, television personality, and President-elect of the United States

3391: 2824:

I think the list should include all consensuses, not just those that some feel are likely to come up again. We have room. ―

1709:, which had nothing to do with election results either, yet we're being told we can't even mention this demographic in the 1499:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

3994:". Very commonly used and understood for its intended meaning—at least in American English, the dialect of this article. ― 3114:

MelanieN has written " People keep removing it and adding other things" which means that there is a consensus for change.

2853:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2799:

P.S. I doubt if it is necessary to list this at "Current consensuses and RfCs" - because I doubt it will come up again. --

2777: 2769: 2662: 2215: 1701:

This was reported on a national level by numerous reliable sources, including CNN, Washington Post, Fox, Huffington Post,

4973: 2398:

Pointy and non-neutral. The data can be sliced any way you wish. Let's stick with the standard, widely reported ways. --

386: 299: 97: 89: 84: 72: 67: 59: 3510: 3383: 1415:

perspective) and there are no policy-based arguments against including it if it is reliably sourced and relevant. --

812:"casual", and rather would assume the speakers are highly motivated to be heard as broadly and clearly as possible. 5204:

The Tudor house was built by Fred Trump in 1940, according to the Realtor's description. Trump was born in 1946. --

5046:

If your criticism is of a more general nature, I'm more than willing to respond to your concerns on my talk page. ―

910: 38: 5040:

edits or comments. I suppose I could have been explicit to avoid being misinterpreted. If I "dogged your edit" by

2314:

But of course there are also plenty of incorrect datasets out there, which magnify the demographic differentials.

1087: 1057: 882: 863: 130: 4329:

22 American businessman, real estate developer, TV producer, politician and President-elect of the United States

2175:

section (and elsewhere), smoothed over by obtuse, misleading and highly opinionated POV terms like "denial". --

997:

My opinion is that those "experts" should know better than to do what they're doing, and we should ignore it. –

4792: 3873: 3412: 2616:

of Virginia, which is actually a county equivalent) has just 2 square miles, while the largest county by area (

2332: 1600: 1082:

IOW MEDRS is a red herring and the issue is weight, just as in the Terri Schiavo case. Which is what I said.

4317:

18 American real estate developer, television personality, politician and President-elect of the United States

4129:

4 American real estate developer, businessman, television personality and President-elect of the United States

1517: 4326:

21 American real estate developer, businessman, producer, politician and President-elect of the United States

3970:. The order of the other two is of little importance because they are equally significant biographically. -- 2551:-- "Not notable" is clearly an opinion, esp since this cross section of national demographics was covered by 909:

I'm pretty sure you also need to have other things to be a psychopath like extroversion and lack of empathy.

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and is a revealing demographic, as is our coverage of the popular vote. We have a dedicated section for

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10 American businessman, real estate developer, TV producer, and President-elect of the United States

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is a failed proposal (and my Perot argument is not about a need to be consistent between articles). ―

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credibility. I do not propose that APA or anybody else govern our actions. I feel an RfC coming on. ―

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a politician (namely, POTUS). Is he POTUS right now? If not, he isn't a politician right now. He's "

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19 American real estate developer, businessman, politician and President-elect of the United States

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It appears that the story originated on Inquistr, a news aggregator that looks like a gossip site.

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6 American real estate developer, television personality, and President-elect of the United States

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9 American real estate developer, businessman, producer, and President-elect of the United States

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So to partially answer your question, in 2008 it was around~72% of the known-counties for McCain,

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Can't we all just wait five weeks until the federal government releases his official portrait? –

455: 396: 177: 157: 5044:, I and others have been doing a hell of a lot of edit-dogging here and everywhere at Knowledge. 4611:, we should not overly focus on current circumstances, no matter how overwhelming they sound. — 3747:

People favoring "businessman" without "politician": 2, so a total of 8 in favor of "businessman"

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Yes, "TV personality" is supposed to read "television personality" if this title is adopted. —

1783:. It is certainly true the urban versus rural divided has been commented on. See the NY Times 1355:

Well, the American Psychiatric Association suggests that this is a form of unethical behavior.

5189: 5175:. No worries, that was an easy fix, and I added metadata to the citation while I was at it. — 5154: 5095: 4985: 4934: 4780: 4030: 3841: 3588: 3541: 3451: 3150: 2929: 2563: 2497: 2399: 2223: 2176: 2113: 2070: 1842: 1761: 1718: 1575: 1420: 1293: 1248: 1205: 844: 315: 47: 17: 3612:

therefore, Trump should be called a politician and businessman. So consider working that in.

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about, over the history of the country. Because (I'll say it again) it isn't meaningful. --

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bring Hitler into it. Until then, that's hyperbole that has no place in this discussion. ―

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politician, businessman, television personality and President-elect of the United States.

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7 American real estate developer, businessman, and President-elect of the United States

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There are many other articles on world leaders which include this kind of analysis too.

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/refinery29.com/donald-trump-grew-up-in-t_b_11203144.html

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15 American politician television personality and President-elect of the United States

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of Alaska, another county equivalent) has 147,800 square miles. Definitely oppose. --

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Not by definition. Which makes it a political opinion and not proper to state here.

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so there is no reason to mention it in this article unless it becomes a big issue.

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Knowledge talk:WikiProject United States Presidents#All Presidents are politicians?

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Principles of Medical Ethics with Annotations Especially Applicable to Psychiatry.

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23 American real estate CEO, politician, and President-elect of the United States

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12 American real estate CEO, politician, and President-elect of the United States

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And then the discussion was "re-opened" by another editor without re-adding the

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and President-Elect of the United States", which is a sentence with only titles.

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I suspect that "television producer" would be less likely to get reverted than "

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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case) covered by reliable sources. We even have a whole article devoted to the

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sense 4b: "a person of importance, prominence, renown, or notoriety <a TV

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to bring it up). If you review the discussion, you may change your belief. --

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to be true. To answer her question, right now Trump is actively preparing to

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definitions. So do terms like banker and landlord. We still use these terms.

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especially : one actively engaged in conducting the business of a government

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Consensus does not mean a direct count of !votes. Knowledge is clearly not a

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since, while it would take weeks, unlike other approaches it would at least

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14 American businessman, politician and President-elect of the United States

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lives in another profession. I do think we have consensus for "politician".

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Well, if you are going to make that argument, neither is the popular vote...

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very well (except for perhaps the pejorative sense 2b, which would violate

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here. Though you opposed inclusion, I thank you for your comments here. --

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You misread the sentence. It says "without ever having held public office

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of Nebraska was a champion of the poor indebted midwestern-and-southern

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Okay, thanks for fixing that. I didn't notice it when I previewed it.

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He is a politician by definition. We've already had this discussion.

1685:– For stats lovers, there are plenty of beautifully-detailed maps at 3898:

business; he picked several business executives for his cabinet. —

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I myself suffer from Carefree Nonplanfulness! Thanks for the link.

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Our quota is two concurrent RfCs on his image. (Sorry, long day.)

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For a start, look at the first two cited sources in the article.

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Wow! It sure would've been nice to know about this little bit of

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People wanting only "Businessman" in addition to :"politician": 6

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Plus one borderline-case that is more editorial than think-piece.

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There was little support for "actor", "celebrity", or "author".

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uninvolved. I am therefore hesitating to do so, so have at it. ―

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2 American businessman and President-elect of the United States

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People opposing "politician" now but accepting it in January: 1

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You had mistakenly eaten up some of the article text into the

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1 American politician and President-elect of the United States

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I propose to change the image in the infobox from the current

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Knowledge is not an indiscriminate collection of information

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Other proposals instead of or in addition to "businessman":

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However, during the general election debate against Clinton,

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You nailed it. My dictionary Trumps your Knowledge article.

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here: armchair psychological evaluations have no place in a

4198:"Businessman" covers the real estate developer aspect. -- 3198:

Trump does blur the definition of the word. We don't call

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Looked out the window and it's snowing. This isn't close.

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As for Springsteen and Trump's Republican rivals: because

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That is already in the lede - in the fourth paragraph. --

2866:, it should be debated what the IPA should be handled. -- 2146:

If five editors propose to use a picture of Santa Clause

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Donald Trump Won 2,600 Counties Compared To Clinton’s 500

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I therefore request any uninvolved editor to close this.

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as long as it's covered (adequately) in reliable sources

5041: 4581:"Politician" should come first because that is Trump's 2149:

in the infobox, let us know and we can go from there. ―

1537:, barring more RS coverage, at least in this article. ― 547:

Narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)

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for brevity here, I'll assume that "TV" is as well. ―

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does any of that have to do with this discussion? --

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on the Senate floor. We should not engage in this. –

2936:, etc. For some reason it is currently missing from 2472:— non-neutral, non-notable manufactured statistic.-- 1785:

The Election Highlighted a Growing Rural-Urban Split

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giving encyclopedia britannica one of the not-votes

1595:being prominent enough to justify inclusion here. 1372:

Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California

4787:think about trying something a bit off-the-wall. 3149:doesn't allow people to make changes just because 2888:Trump is now a politician. In fact, it is now his 1689:. For the Donald Trump main bio, this is undue. — 4029:Appropriately worded for this C-class article. -- 3860:, but I'm not sure how to interpret their stance. 2670: 442: 4898:. I am not going to try to sort out that mess. ― 4976:The photo in the NYTimes was not accurate. And 4243:and comment on the content, not the editor. -- 2663:Knowledge:Closing discussions#Closure procedure 2371:- There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. 420:File:Donald Trump August 19, 2015 (cropped).jpg 223:Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2016 4336:This whole 23 versions thing is ludicrous. -- 3966:should come first, because that is what he is 1687:United States presidential election, 2016#Maps 3641:Yeah. Not sure what the point of this is. -- 2607:as the number of counties won is misleading. 2088:Consensus decides what goes against policy. ― 1648:- Counties are not units of the electorate.- 424:File:Donald Trump (29273256122) - Cropped.jpg 8: 2673:; otherwise I or someone else can do that. ― 2086:Consensus can't go against policy, esp NPOV. 441:A 30-day RfC on that issue just closed. See 5002:I have no idea what you're talking about. ― 1779:How about more versus less commented on by 1278:It appears that you are very familiar with 340:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usb0iE5WiZI 4100:included in all of the following choices. 1507: 570:The following discussion has been closed. 550: 390: 380: 4194:No. The only one that makes any sense is 4499:Attempt to return to existing discussion 3274:I realize WP is not an RS; but he fits: 4858:That RfC has been aborted, disregard. ― 3868:politician who became the potus-elect. 3528:You have a fundamental human right to " 383: 2776:I note that this discussion was not a 2669:They may wish to then add an entry at 2085: 1352: 1348: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4972:Found a better source for the house: 2432:out of other things to talk about. -- 7: 3985:I Support the preceding. Television 1495:The following discussion is closed. 1302:Are you making the same argument at 4064:Attempt to start over from scratch 3151:they like it better some other way 24: 4779:that arbcom is elected with, see 1241:psychopathography of Adolf Hitler 3407:is that he is the potus-elect. 2849:The discussion above is closed. 278: 230: 29: 3733:People opposing "politician": 4 3730:People favoring "politician": 7 3438:We all know the facts given by 5149:How was the citation botched? 3294:Knowledge:Consistency proposal 2252:Los Angeles County, California 1: 5228:23:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5214:23:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5194:01:42, 19 December 2016 (UTC) 5180:01:32, 19 December 2016 (UTC) 5159:01:20, 19 December 2016 (UTC) 5135:22:57, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5118:22:54, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5100:00:55, 19 December 2016 (UTC) 5076:22:48, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5062:22:43, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 5018:20:53, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 4990:20:47, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 4964:20:44, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 4939:20:35, 18 December 2016 (UTC) 4914:20:42, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 4874:20:21, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 4854:21:44, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4835:20:38, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4797:07:03, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4763:05:35, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4738:05:23, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4721:05:16, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4690:04:08, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4651:05:01, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4616:07:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4595:13:59, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4577:07:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4561:23:57, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4540:22:08, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4530:18:22, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4514:17:56, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4487:07:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 4477:04:56, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 4405:22:02, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 4385:05:08, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 4361:20:32, 15 December 2016 (UTC) 4346:13:55, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4297:04:45, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4279:15:49, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4253:13:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4235:04:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 4208:14:00, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4189:07:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4171:05:34, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4110:05:34, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4090:05:17, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4058:05:57, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4039:00:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 4025:18:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 4010:18:29, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3980:15:50, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3930:12:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3903:06:43, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3893:03:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3878:01:28, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3850:23:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3828:03:52, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3813:23:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3793:23:12, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3704:23:22, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3685:23:11, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3651:22:54, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3637:22:53, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3622:22:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3597:23:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3568:22:53, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3550:22:46, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3523:22:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3475:22:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3460:22:03, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3417:22:04, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3363:21:38, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3330:21:26, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3312:20:26, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3288:20:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3270:20:00, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3234:19:55, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3218:19:53, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3193:19:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3163:19:29, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3144:19:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3124:19:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3103:19:13, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3077:19:00, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3062:18:53, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3043:18:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 3015:03:44, 12 December 2016 (UTC) 3000:23:44, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2983:23:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2968:23:32, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2951:18:57, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2920:18:49, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2902:17:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 2876:17:38, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2840:02:33, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2809:02:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2791:02:25, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2770:Knowledge:Closing discussions 2760:01:47, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2722:01:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2708:01:24, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2689:00:08, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 2671:#Current consensuses and RfCs 2657:23:56, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 2630:21:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC) 1488:07:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 1468:23:25, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1425:23:49, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1408:23:07, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1387:22:57, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1365:21:53, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1326:21:45, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1298:21:39, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1274:21:30, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1253:21:21, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1234:21:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1210:20:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1187:18:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1172:18:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1151:18:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1135:18:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1107:20:19, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1092:20:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1076:18:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1062:18:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1038:18:59, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1024:18:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 1007:18:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 993:18:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 967:18:07, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 937:20:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 919:18:03, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 905:17:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 887:17:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 868:17:39, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 849:17:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 824:19:00, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 807:17:37, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 788:17:14, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 771:17:07, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 751:16:57, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 730:16:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 713:16:40, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 688:16:25, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 662:16:43, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 629:16:22, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 612:16:15, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 592:16:09, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 564:01:12, 17 December 2016 (UTC) 532:22:12, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 501:22:01, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 479:21:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 461:20:24, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 443:#Current consensuses and RfCs 436:20:21, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 409:22:24, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 370:03:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 353:03:52, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 326:00:54, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 273:00:48, 16 December 2016 (UTC) 207:11:52, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 193:00:10, 14 December 2016 (UTC) 183:22:36, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 162:22:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 148:17:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 135:16:30, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 116:15:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC) 3509:out there describing him as 2600:23:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC) 2574:17:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC) 2536:17:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC) 2508:05:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC) 2482:08:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2463:08:16, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2442:02:57, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2423:01:22, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2408:23:04, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2391:20:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2356:03:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2337:23:46, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2286:20:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2268:19:45, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2254:has 9,818,605 people, while 2243:19:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2187:06:15, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2165:00:06, 3 December 2016 (UTC) 2142:23:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2124:23:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2104:22:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2081:19:05, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2058:18:34, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 2032:18:35, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1999:23:35, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1991:De la démocratie en Amérique 1964:23:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1946:23:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1932:22:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1918:22:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1901:22:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1887:22:12, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1853:19:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1821:19:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1805:18:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1772:18:20, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1746:17:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1729:17:44, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1694:16:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1674:19:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1656:16:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1641:15:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1621:15:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1605:15:45, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1586:17:44, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1567:15:39, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1553:15:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 1522:11:47, 2 December 2016 (UTC) 3607:further compromise proposal 2521:- Gwillhickers, please see 389:on that issue just closed. 332:Trump is a former Democrat? 257:to reactivate your request. 245:has been answered. Set the 5246: 4640:WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? 3946:of the subject. These are 2558:Election to the Presidency 4888:and without removing the 3758:"real estate developer" 4 2661:Correction: According to 2618:Yukon-Koyukuk Census Area 3944:defining characteristics 2851:Please do not modify it. 1497:Please do not modify it. 573:Please do not modify it. 2890:defining characteristic 2694:Thanks for suggestion, 4769:instant run-off voting 3956:television personality 3838:television personality 3405:geological perspective 2778:WP:Request for comment 2299:William Jennings Bryan 972:Agree completely that 4811:Notice of related RfC 3856:I would also suggest 3534:this is up for debate 1280:men made out of straw 911:Sagittarian Milky Way 42:of past discussions. 4773:ranked choice voting 3960:television celebrity 3718:Attempt to summarize 2256:Loving County, Texas 977:fall squarely under 290:for this alteration 4844:a few days ago. -- 4815:See related RfC at 3171:compromise proposal 674:in-text attribution 300:edit semi-protected 286:please establish a 3755:"TV personality" 6 1988:'s historic essay 1498: 1308:editorial judgment 1050:Terri Schiavo case 5042:adding a wikilink 4924:Tudor style house 4241:assume good faith 3694:lede sentence. -- 3244:these definitions 2956:ERROR by MelanieN 2930:George H. W. Bush 2864:cot–caught merger 2768:OK, according to 2525:. Possibly also 2258:has 82 people. – 1760:perspective. -- 1524: 1512:comment added by 1496: 1473: 1472: 923:Working on it... 543: 542: 411: 395:comment added by 323: 261: 260: 103: 102: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 18:Talk:Donald Trump 5237: 5174: 5169: 5148: 5088: 5059: 5054: 5038: 5015: 5010: 4961: 4956: 4911: 4906: 4897: 4891: 4887: 4881: 4871: 4866: 4832: 4827: 4760: 4755: 4718: 4713: 4605: 4571: 4558: 4553: 4222:"the only one" 4007: 4002: 3578: 3437: 3309: 3304: 3267: 3262: 3215: 3210: 2837: 2832: 2757: 2752: 2738: 2686: 2681: 2654: 2649: 2533: 2420: 2388: 2383: 2236: 2233: 2230: 2227: 2162: 2157: 2101: 2096: 1982: 1875: 1815: 1550: 1545: 1405: 1400: 1385: 1383: 1323: 1318: 1271: 1266: 1231: 1226: 1169: 1164: 1132: 1127: 1022: 1020: 991: 989: 929: 897: 822: 820: 799: 786: 784: 749: 747: 711: 709: 686: 684: 660: 658: 640: 627: 625: 604: 575: 551: 529: 524: 458: 453: 381: 376:Image in infobox 368: 366: 324: 320: 313: 311: 303: 282: 281: 252: 248: 234: 233: 227: 180: 175: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 5245: 5244: 5240: 5239: 5238: 5236: 5235: 5234: 5171: 5163: 5142: 5082: 5057: 5048: 5032: 5013: 5004: 4959: 4950: 4926: 4909: 4900: 4895: 4889: 4885: 4879: 4869: 4860: 4830: 4821: 4813: 4777:approval voting 4758: 4749: 4716: 4707: 4599: 4565: 4556: 4547: 4501: 4066: 4005: 3996: 3720: 3609: 3572: 3431: 3379: 3307: 3298: 3265: 3256: 3242:He doesn't fit 3213: 3204: 3173: 3091:User:Usernamen1 2883: 2860: 2855: 2854: 2835: 2826: 2755: 2746: 2732: 2684: 2675: 2652: 2643: 2638: 2531: 2416: 2386: 2377: 2234: 2231: 2228: 2225: 2160: 2151: 2099: 2090: 1976: 1869: 1809: 1548: 1539: 1501: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1478: 1445:Volunteer Marek 1403: 1394: 1378: 1376: 1321: 1312: 1304:Hillary Clinton 1269: 1260: 1229: 1220: 1216:Godwin interval 1167: 1158: 1130: 1121: 1015: 1013: 984: 982: 925: 893: 860:Volunteer Marek 815: 813: 795: 779: 777: 742: 740: 704: 702: 679: 677: 653: 651: 636: 620: 618: 600: 571: 549: 544: 527: 518: 456: 447: 412: 378: 361: 359: 334: 316: 307: 305: 297: 279: 250: 246: 231: 225: 178: 169: 127:Anythingyouwant 108: 106:Knowledge photo 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5243: 5241: 5233: 5232: 5231: 5230: 5202: 5201: 5200: 5199: 5198: 5197: 5196: 5127: 5126: 5125: 5124: 5123: 5122: 5121: 5120: 5106: 5105: 5104: 5103: 5102: 5045: 5025: 5024: 5023: 5022: 5021: 5020: 4995: 4994: 4993: 4992: 4967: 4966: 4925: 4922: 4921: 4920: 4919: 4918: 4917: 4916: 4842:forum shopping 4812: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4806: 4805: 4804: 4803: 4802: 4801: 4800: 4799: 4789:47.222.203.135 4771:, or by using 4701: 4700: 4699: 4698: 4697: 4696: 4695: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4665: 4627: 4626: 4625: 4624: 4623: 4622: 4621: 4620: 4619: 4618: 4579: 4500: 4497: 4496: 4495: 4494: 4493: 4492: 4491: 4490: 4489: 4459: 4458: 4457: 4456: 4455: 4454: 4446: 4445: 4444: 4443: 4442: 4441: 4432: 4431: 4430: 4429: 4428: 4427: 4418: 4417: 4416: 4415: 4414: 4413: 4395: 4394: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4390: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4334: 4333: 4330: 4327: 4324: 4321: 4318: 4315: 4312: 4309: 4306: 4302: 4301: 4300: 4299: 4264: 4263: 4262: 4261: 4260: 4259: 4258: 4257: 4256: 4255: 4192: 4191: 4158: 4157: 4154: 4151: 4148: 4145: 4142: 4139: 4136: 4133: 4130: 4127: 4124: 4121: 4117: 4116: 4115: 4114: 4113: 4112: 4065: 4062: 4061: 4060: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3936: 3935: 3934: 3933: 3932: 3910: 3909: 3908: 3907: 3906: 3905: 3870:47.222.203.135 3853: 3852: 3833: 3832: 3831: 3830: 3800: 3769: 3768: 3765: 3762: 3759: 3756: 3749: 3748: 3745: 3740:Other titles: 3738: 3737: 3734: 3731: 3719: 3716: 3715: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3709: 3708: 3707: 3706: 3666: 3665: 3664: 3663: 3662: 3661: 3660: 3659: 3608: 3605: 3604: 3603: 3602: 3601: 3600: 3599: 3488: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3477: 3420: 3419: 3409:47.222.203.135 3377: 3373: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3341: 3340: 3339: 3338: 3337: 3336: 3335: 3334: 3333: 3332: 3237: 3236: 3221: 3220: 3172: 3169: 3168: 3167: 3166: 3165: 3132: 3131: 3130: 3129: 3128: 3127: 3126: 3088: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3079: 3031: 3030: 3029: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3017: 2926:George W. Bush 2882: 2879: 2859: 2856: 2848: 2847: 2846: 2845: 2844: 2843: 2842: 2823: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2794: 2793: 2765: 2764: 2763: 2762: 2727: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2637: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2609:Kalawao County 2602: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2553:national media 2539: 2538: 2515: 2514: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2485: 2484: 2466: 2465: 2447: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2426: 2425: 2410: 2400:Dr. Fleischman 2393: 2365: 2364: 2363: 2362: 2361: 2360: 2359: 2358: 2340: 2339: 2329:47.222.203.135 2289: 2288: 2270: 2245: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2173:Climate change 2144: 2061: 2060: 2041: 2040: 2039: 2038: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2034: 2014: 2013: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1749: 1748: 1731: 1696: 1679: 1678: 1677: 1676: 1659: 1658: 1643: 1624: 1623: 1608: 1607: 1597:Dragons flight 1592: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1514:194.166.159.75 1502: 1493: 1482: 1481: 1480: 1479: 1477: 1474: 1471: 1470: 1439:I concur with 1438: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1433: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1429: 1428: 1427: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1337: 1336: 1335: 1334: 1333: 1332: 1331: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1192: 1191: 1190: 1189: 1138: 1137: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1114: 1113: 1112: 1111: 1110: 1109: 1046: 1045: 1044: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1040: 946: 945: 944: 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 852: 851: 836: 835: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 716: 715: 690: 670: 669: 668: 667: 666: 665: 664: 577: 576: 567: 566: 548: 545: 541: 540: 539: 538: 537: 536: 535: 534: 508: 507: 506: 505: 504: 503: 484: 483: 482: 481: 464: 463: 414: 413: 384: 379: 377: 374: 373: 372: 333: 330: 329: 328: 259: 258: 235: 224: 221: 220: 219: 218: 217: 216: 215: 214: 213: 212: 211: 210: 209: 107: 104: 101: 100: 95: 92: 87: 82: 75: 70: 65: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5242: 5229: 5226: 5222: 5217: 5216: 5215: 5211: 5207: 5203: 5195: 5191: 5187: 5183: 5182: 5181: 5178: 5173:</ref: --> 5167: 5162: 5161: 5160: 5156: 5152: 5146: 5141: 5140: 5139: 5138: 5137: 5136: 5133: 5119: 5115: 5111: 5107: 5101: 5097: 5093: 5086: 5081: 5080: 5079: 5078: 5077: 5073: 5069: 5065: 5064: 5063: 5060: 5055: 5053: 5052: 5043: 5036: 5031: 5030: 5029: 5028: 5027: 5026: 5019: 5016: 5011: 5009: 5008: 5001: 5000: 4999: 4998: 4997: 4996: 4991: 4987: 4983: 4979: 4975: 4971: 4970: 4969: 4968: 4965: 4962: 4957: 4955: 4954: 4947: 4943: 4942: 4941: 4940: 4936: 4932: 4923: 4915: 4912: 4907: 4905: 4904: 4894: 4884: 4877: 4876: 4875: 4872: 4867: 4865: 4864: 4857: 4856: 4855: 4851: 4847: 4843: 4839: 4838: 4837: 4836: 4833: 4828: 4826: 4825: 4818: 4810: 4798: 4794: 4790: 4786: 4782: 4778: 4774: 4770: 4766: 4765: 4764: 4761: 4756: 4754: 4753: 4746: 4741: 4740: 4739: 4735: 4731: 4726: 4725: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4719: 4714: 4712: 4711: 4703: 4702: 4691: 4687: 4683: 4679: 4675: 4670: 4666: 4663: 4662: 4661: 4660: 4659: 4658: 4657: 4656: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4652: 4648: 4644: 4641: 4635: 4631: 4617: 4614: 4610: 4603: 4598: 4597: 4596: 4592: 4588: 4584: 4580: 4578: 4575: 4569: 4564: 4563: 4562: 4559: 4554: 4552: 4551: 4543: 4542: 4541: 4538: 4533: 4532: 4531: 4527: 4523: 4518: 4517: 4516: 4515: 4511: 4507: 4498: 4488: 4485: 4480: 4479: 4478: 4474: 4470: 4465: 4464: 4463: 4462: 4461: 4460: 4452: 4451: 4450: 4449: 4448: 4447: 4438: 4437: 4436: 4435: 4434: 4433: 4424: 4423: 4422: 4421: 4420: 4419: 4410: 4409: 4408: 4407: 4406: 4403: 4399: 4396: 4386: 4382: 4378: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4370: 4369: 4368: 4367: 4366: 4365: 4364: 4363: 4362: 4358: 4354: 4348: 4347: 4343: 4339: 4331: 4328: 4325: 4322: 4319: 4316: 4313: 4310: 4307: 4304: 4303: 4298: 4294: 4290: 4287:suggest more 4285: 4284: 4283: 4282: 4281: 4280: 4276: 4272: 4268: 4254: 4250: 4246: 4242: 4238: 4237: 4236: 4232: 4228: 4223: 4218: 4217: 4216: 4215: 4214: 4213: 4212: 4211: 4210: 4209: 4205: 4201: 4197: 4190: 4187: 4182: 4178: 4175: 4174: 4173: 4172: 4168: 4164: 4155: 4152: 4149: 4146: 4143: 4140: 4137: 4134: 4131: 4128: 4125: 4122: 4119: 4118: 4111: 4107: 4103: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4094: 4093: 4092: 4091: 4087: 4083: 4077: 4074: 4070: 4063: 4059: 4055: 4051: 4046: 4040: 4036: 4032: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4022: 4018: 4013: 4012: 4011: 4008: 4003: 4001: 4000: 3992: 3988: 3984: 3983: 3982: 3981: 3977: 3973: 3969: 3965: 3961: 3957: 3953: 3949: 3945: 3931: 3927: 3923: 3922:Objective3000 3918: 3917: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3911: 3904: 3901: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3890: 3886: 3881: 3880: 3879: 3875: 3871: 3867: 3862: 3859: 3855: 3854: 3851: 3847: 3843: 3839: 3835: 3834: 3829: 3825: 3821: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3810: 3806: 3801: 3797: 3796: 3795: 3794: 3790: 3786: 3781: 3777: 3773: 3766: 3764:"celebrity" 2 3763: 3760: 3757: 3754: 3753: 3752: 3746: 3743: 3742: 3741: 3735: 3732: 3729: 3728: 3727: 3724: 3717: 3705: 3701: 3697: 3692: 3688: 3687: 3686: 3682: 3678: 3674: 3673: 3672: 3671: 3670: 3669: 3668: 3667: 3656: 3655: 3654: 3653: 3652: 3648: 3644: 3640: 3639: 3638: 3634: 3630: 3626: 3625: 3624: 3623: 3619: 3615: 3606: 3598: 3594: 3590: 3586: 3582: 3579:Whether you " 3576: 3571: 3570: 3569: 3565: 3561: 3557: 3553: 3552: 3551: 3547: 3543: 3539: 3535: 3531: 3527: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3520: 3516: 3512: 3508: 3505: 3502: 3498: 3493: 3476: 3472: 3468: 3463: 3462: 3461: 3457: 3453: 3449: 3445: 3441: 3435: 3430: 3429: 3428: 3427: 3426: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3421: 3418: 3414: 3410: 3406: 3401: 3399: 3396: 3392: 3389: 3386: 3384: 3382: 3374: 3364: 3360: 3356: 3355:Objective3000 3351: 3350: 3349: 3348: 3347: 3346: 3345: 3344: 3343: 3342: 3331: 3327: 3323: 3319: 3315: 3314: 3313: 3310: 3305: 3303: 3302: 3295: 3291: 3290: 3289: 3285: 3281: 3280:Objective3000 3277: 3273: 3272: 3271: 3268: 3263: 3261: 3260: 3253: 3249: 3245: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3238: 3235: 3231: 3227: 3226:Objective3000 3223: 3222: 3219: 3216: 3211: 3209: 3208: 3201: 3197: 3196: 3195: 3194: 3190: 3186: 3181: 3177: 3170: 3164: 3160: 3156: 3152: 3147: 3146: 3145: 3141: 3137: 3136:Objective3000 3133: 3125: 3121: 3117: 3113: 3112: 3111: 3110: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3106: 3105: 3104: 3100: 3096: 3092: 3078: 3074: 3070: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3059: 3055: 3050: 3049: 3048: 3047: 3046: 3045: 3044: 3040: 3036: 3032: 3016: 3012: 3008: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2988: 2987: 2986: 2985: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2975:Objective3000 2971: 2970: 2969: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2954: 2953: 2952: 2948: 2944: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2917: 2913: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2903: 2899: 2895: 2891: 2887: 2880: 2878: 2877: 2873: 2869: 2865: 2858:Pronunciation 2857: 2852: 2841: 2838: 2833: 2831: 2830: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2810: 2806: 2802: 2798: 2797: 2796: 2795: 2792: 2788: 2784: 2779: 2775: 2771: 2767: 2766: 2761: 2758: 2753: 2751: 2750: 2742: 2736: 2731: 2730: 2729: 2728: 2723: 2719: 2715: 2714:Objective3000 2711: 2710: 2709: 2705: 2701: 2697: 2696:User:Mandruss 2693: 2692: 2691: 2690: 2687: 2682: 2680: 2679: 2672: 2668: 2664: 2659: 2658: 2655: 2650: 2648: 2647: 2636:Move to close 2635: 2631: 2627: 2623: 2619: 2615: 2610: 2606: 2605:Strong oppose 2603: 2601: 2597: 2593: 2588: 2585: 2584: 2575: 2571: 2567: 2566: 2560: 2559: 2554: 2550: 2547: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2541: 2540: 2537: 2534: 2528: 2524: 2520: 2517: 2516: 2509: 2505: 2501: 2500: 2494: 2491: 2490: 2489: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2483: 2479: 2475: 2471: 2468: 2467: 2464: 2460: 2456: 2452: 2449: 2448: 2443: 2439: 2435: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2427: 2424: 2419: 2414: 2411: 2409: 2405: 2401: 2397: 2394: 2392: 2389: 2384: 2382: 2381: 2374: 2370: 2367: 2366: 2357: 2353: 2349: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2338: 2334: 2330: 2327: 2323: 2319: 2316: 2313: 2311: 2309: 2307: 2305:illuminating. 2303: 2300: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2287: 2283: 2279: 2274: 2271: 2269: 2265: 2261: 2257: 2253: 2249: 2246: 2244: 2241: 2238: 2237: 2221: 2217: 2213: 2210: 2209: 2188: 2184: 2180: 2179: 2174: 2170: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2166: 2163: 2158: 2156: 2155: 2148: 2145: 2143: 2139: 2135: 2134:Objective3000 2131: 2127: 2126: 2125: 2121: 2117: 2116: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2105: 2102: 2097: 2095: 2094: 2087: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2078: 2074: 2073: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2059: 2055: 2051: 2050:Objective3000 2046: 2043: 2042: 2033: 2030: 2027: 2022: 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2017: 2016: 2015: 2000: 1997: 1993: 1992: 1987: 1980: 1975: 1965: 1961: 1957: 1956:Objective3000 1953: 1949: 1948: 1947: 1943: 1939: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924:Objective3000 1921: 1920: 1919: 1915: 1911: 1908: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1898: 1894: 1893:Objective3000 1890: 1889: 1888: 1884: 1880: 1873: 1868: 1854: 1850: 1846: 1845: 1840: 1836: 1835: 1834: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1819: 1813: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1802: 1798: 1794: 1790: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1769: 1765: 1764: 1758: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1752: 1751: 1750: 1747: 1743: 1739: 1735: 1732: 1730: 1726: 1722: 1721: 1716: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1700: 1697: 1695: 1692: 1688: 1684: 1681: 1680: 1675: 1671: 1667: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1660: 1657: 1654: 1651: 1647: 1644: 1642: 1638: 1634: 1629: 1626: 1625: 1622: 1618: 1614: 1613:Objective3000 1610: 1609: 1606: 1602: 1598: 1593: 1587: 1583: 1579: 1578: 1573: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1564: 1560: 1559:Objective3000 1556: 1555: 1554: 1551: 1546: 1544: 1543: 1536: 1532: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1523: 1519: 1515: 1511: 1506: 1500: 1489: 1486: 1475: 1469: 1466: 1462: 1458: 1454: 1453:Objective3000 1450: 1446: 1442: 1426: 1422: 1418: 1413: 1409: 1406: 1401: 1399: 1398: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1384: 1382: 1374: 1373: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1362: 1358: 1357:Objective3000 1354: 1350: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1342: 1341: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1327: 1324: 1319: 1317: 1316: 1309: 1305: 1301: 1300: 1299: 1295: 1291: 1287: 1286: 1281: 1277: 1276: 1275: 1272: 1267: 1265: 1264: 1256: 1255: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1242: 1237: 1236: 1235: 1232: 1227: 1225: 1224: 1217: 1214: 1213: 1212: 1211: 1207: 1203: 1198: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1175: 1174: 1173: 1170: 1165: 1163: 1162: 1155: 1154: 1153: 1152: 1148: 1144: 1136: 1133: 1128: 1126: 1125: 1118: 1108: 1104: 1100: 1095: 1094: 1093: 1089: 1085: 1081: 1080: 1079: 1078: 1077: 1073: 1069: 1065: 1064: 1063: 1059: 1055: 1051: 1047: 1039: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1021: 1019: 1010: 1009: 1008: 1004: 1000: 996: 995: 994: 990: 988: 980: 975: 971: 970: 969: 968: 964: 960: 956: 955:Terry Schiavo 952: 938: 935: 934: 930: 928: 922: 921: 920: 916: 912: 908: 907: 906: 903: 902: 898: 896: 890: 889: 888: 884: 880: 876: 872: 871: 870: 869: 865: 861: 857: 854:According to 850: 846: 842: 837: 825: 821: 819: 810: 809: 808: 805: 804: 800: 798: 791: 790: 789: 785: 783: 774: 773: 772: 768: 764: 763:Objective3000 759: 754: 753: 752: 748: 746: 738: 733: 732: 731: 727: 723: 718: 717: 714: 710: 708: 700: 695: 691: 689: 685: 683: 675: 671: 663: 659: 657: 648: 647: 646: 645: 641: 639: 632: 631: 630: 626: 624: 615: 614: 613: 610: 609: 605: 603: 596: 595: 594: 593: 589: 585: 579: 578: 574: 569: 568: 565: 561: 557: 553: 552: 546: 533: 530: 525: 523: 522: 514: 513: 512: 511: 510: 509: 502: 498: 494: 493:Objective3000 490: 489: 488: 487: 486: 485: 480: 476: 472: 468: 467: 466: 465: 462: 459: 454: 452: 451: 444: 440: 439: 438: 437: 433: 429: 425: 421: 416: 415: 410: 406: 402: 398: 397:Objective3000 394: 388: 382: 375: 371: 367: 365: 357: 356: 355: 354: 350: 346: 342: 341: 337: 331: 327: 321: 319: 312: 310: 301: 295: 294: 289: 285: 277: 276: 275: 274: 270: 266: 256: 253:parameter to 244: 240: 236: 229: 228: 222: 208: 204: 200: 196: 195: 194: 191: 186: 185: 184: 181: 176: 174: 173: 165: 164: 163: 159: 155: 151: 150: 149: 146: 143: 138: 137: 136: 132: 128: 124: 120: 119: 118: 117: 114: 105: 99: 96: 93: 91: 88: 86: 83: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 5172:<ref: --> 5128: 5050: 5049: 5006: 5005: 4952: 4951: 4927: 4902: 4901: 4862: 4861: 4823: 4822: 4814: 4784: 4751: 4750: 4744: 4709: 4708: 4667: 4639: 4636: 4632: 4628: 4609:encyclopedia 4582: 4549: 4548: 4502: 4349: 4335: 4265: 4221: 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