Talk:Dalida/Archive 2

1943:

across Knowledge, but there was no decision that "actress stays" nor any claim that "all female actresses on wiki are called actress". There was a call for further discussion. Are you prepared to discuss this dispassionately, and are you prepared to read up on previous discussions and the sources presented in support of how English changes? Some of the things you say look as if you have made up your mind once and for all and that you won't accept changes to the article that you don't personally agree with, but I hope that is not the case. Again, I understand that in French, the concept of gendered nouns is a very very different thing from what it is in English. In my native language, the female-gendered word for "actress" is considerably less marked, and it is a fairly neutral term. But I cannot use my native language to gauge the status of English. Nor can I go on intuition or how my friends speak. Knowledge has to go on what research shows us, in the form of reliable published sources. --

1406:. There are still a few issues with some of the word choices - words such as 'triumph' are considered WP:PEACOCK terms for example - but it's definitely moving in the right direction. It does need some copy editing for grammar, which I'll be happy to do, but can I ask you first about sources - there aren't any references in this. I'm assuming that you have references for the assertions, that you will include in the copy-edited text? I also have a suggestion - rather than fill up the talk page with large samples of text like this, you could perhaps use your sandbox and then provide a link on the talk page. Once you confirm about the references, I'll go through the text and make a few tweaks. 407:, very typical in French for reporting past events, and very atypical in English. There are numerous other indications as well, including convoluted syntax and awkward translations ("applauded by all of Paris", "her three-week-long triumph of concerts", "soon completed her province tour"), grammar issues ("the common consequence of all hers new releases", "Regardless to them she refuses without hesitation..."), vocabulary issues ("she promoted her energic version", "one of her evergreen hits", "The record obtains a success of esteem"), and transliteration issues ("Hava Naguila", correct in French, but "Hava Nagila" in English). Such problems can be found all over. I've added a 149:

dual nationality. How many nationalities are you trying to attribute to her, and why argue against her blood when that is what is being disputed here!??!?! And you truly are not racist, huh? "French singer" implies she is French by blood or birth. She was NOT! She was neither. She was a foreigner, graciously accepted among the French. In fact, she became famous in France due to this: her exotic quality, her accent and FOREIGN demeanor. Otherwise, she would have been queuing at the unemployment office with the rest of the Frenchwomen who were lovely and could sing!

1866:

slowly change each article so no one realises it, just to later come up and say "oh but genderless word is well accepted on wikipedia". Plus, I have repeated several times that common wiki rule is "if it is not broken, don't fix it". Actress worked okay for 15 years on Dalida article. You just came and changed it, then referrimg to me how I should stop reverting. Do you understand that these kind of chamges on article can be done only after the discussion ends. During the discussion, the article should stay in original shape and wait to conclusion.

1269:

Returning to France, she released two more albums; "Dalida Internationale", that gathered all her songs she was performing on tour, and "Loin the moi". Loin de moi recieved her first scoptione that quickly gained success. Both albums were promoted in early December during her first concert residency at Olympia, wich was a sold out success with standing ovations. Then she recieved congratulating from Edith Piaf who told her: "After me, it will be you." In Belgum. On the very end of December, she completed her world tour in Ancienne Belgique

70:

French men. Or just as dumb as referring to her as Japanese cos she was born there. Someone please FIX THIS! Dalida was NOT French. She was an Arab, of Egyptian blood whose parents emigrated from Cairo to Italy. From there she moved to France, a country that "adopted" her as a star, with open arms. To call her "French" is to deny her most exotic quality, which made her a success in Paris. Not to mention, an insult to Egyptians and Italians everywhere, by denying them their "celebrity heritage", for lack of better term!

2538:, where, if your argument prevails, it will be applicable Project-wide. Before you do that, though, check out those links I left above to the MOS Archives, where this has been tried before and failed every time. I really think you are tilting at windmills, here, but you never know; it wouldn't be the first time something has failed an attempt at being codified in policy numerous times, before finally making it on the last attempt. Maybe you can drive it through this time, where others have not succeeded. Good luck! 2418:– Nothing; you did the right thing. You made your case as best as you could. If your question is non-rhetorical and you really want a response, then you could advertise the discussion on relevant WikiProjects and Talk pages of related articles, to see if you can persuade other editors of your PoV, and overturn the consensus. I'm not optimistic that that would be a good use of your time, but that would be the next step, imho, if you wanted to pursue this. 307:

decide will they go to cinema and leave contest to the jury, or go to contest in person. Coquatrix goes outside for car and leaves them to decide. They play 421 wich leads them to Olympia." This event is one of most important ones in career of Dalida because the 421 game made three men discover her. If they went to cinema, she would have finished up just as other contestants... in cabarets. So this is why it musn't be messed up. I propose this:

145:

China as a young adult, and start singing there with a strong American accent, that's gonna make me (a) Chinese (singer) according to you?! Neither her speech nor her demeanor, neither her culture nor her blood were French! She didn't even have a piece of paper that said French, and even if she were to have acquired one, your passport is not your DNA, your race, YOUR LIFE, FCOL! She was a famous singer IN France, period!

858:, I have last few proposals to make in 50s section until I show you my new text for 1960-1966. I found out that Dalida had names for her tours, and that her singing tours, that followed cyclist race "Tour de france", were named "Tour de France avec Dalida" or on posters shortened as "TDF avec Dalida" (Tour of France with Dalida), with an addition of year of tour at the end. So I suggest changes in title and in article; 153:

taken literally here, not by the insult derivative it's turned into, look it up!) and it makes just as bad as those Holocaust-deniers. Denial is denial and denial is A LIE! The truth doesn't cater to your denial, your personal feelings, your delusional entitlement that thinks you can appropriate Dalida and rewrite her birth blood and DNA just because you are a self-appointed "president" of your own club. Grow up!

568:

to add? I plan to continue editing like this when I have time, but since I am unfamiliar with the subject matter it is sometimes taking me some time to work out what it is saying - since you are much more of an expert on the subject, if you felt able to write in a similar tone you might be able to make edits much more quickly, which I could then check for grammar?

2058:, that is, Knowledge is an encyclopedia, and it doesn't get out in front of trends or even ride them; by it's nature, Knowledge is conservative about language, and follows changes of language with a certain time lag, while printed books and articles catch up with spoken language that may have changed on the bleeding edge years earlier. On the flip side of this 513:, if I understand you correctly you are saying that this text is indeed machine translated - is that right? If so, can you confirm the source of the text that you are translating - have you written this yourself in Croation, and are machine-translating it into English? Or is this coming from a published source that you are translating? Thanks 1768:

is the unmarked term, it seems almost like an attempt to make some kind of (inexplicable) point to change it back. Why do that? The only appropriate reason I could see would be if she herself had a strong preference, but as she was not a native English-speaker that seems less likely. But please provide sources to show I'm wrong! --

2293:

why do I want to keep actress. I am solely for keeping the "current state" of ANY article before the ending of ANY discussion. I excuse myself for that way of respones but I've had enough experience with editors who make edits without discussion, and when I revert it seeking for previous discussion, I got reported or warned.

2273:

personal universe trumps impressionistic investigations on the slightly problematic GBooks corpus - did you control for varieties of English in your research, for instance?) I am not prepared to continue it. It is not a case of leading change, it is a case of trailing it, but apparently I am useless at explaining that. :-( --

1906:, though the only person there who refused to accept the change was an offensive troll, which you are not. Let's discuss this. That being said, it is difficult to carry out a discussion when my factual arguments based on reliable secondary sources are met with emotional outbursts. Please comment on edits, not on editors. And 1287:

massive success as the song peaked number one. She also released album Le petit Gonzales, named after her biggest success of year. In January 1963, following the release of moderate successfully Tu croiras, she recieved Cortina d'Ampezzo award that symbolized biggest disc sales in Italy of her 45rpms in past period.

2450:– Yes, but it didn't seem worth posting two more links which demonstrated the same result. One could well have criticized the search expression I used as only one possibility among many, and that would be a valid criticism. I'm open to other searches that point to a different conclusion, but I couldn't find one. 882:, wich became end of year hit and chart topper of France and Belgium. Its B side "Si je pouvais revivre un jour ma vie" peaked number one in Canada. By the end of the year, she had received three more golden discs, and again compiled previously released EPs on two new albums; "Gondolier" and "Les Gitans". 2292:

Just one thing before further discussion; I don't know what made you think I am French, whereas the topics I edit or my struggle with "spirit" of writing in english, but I am Croatian and I know very well the gender situation in several widespread languages today, so no need of trying to find reasons

1901:

From my point of view, which I acknowledge is coloured by the fact that I work professionally with teaching and researching the English language (and so I am probably more intimately aware of how the language changes), this change is uncontroversial because it is such an obviously neutral change from

1823:

Language changes, and it is a simple fact of contemporary English that "actress" is becoming old-fashioned and is a marked term - that is certainly not a personal opinion, which as you know has no place in Knowledge. The term "actor" is used interchangeably with "actress" for female performers and is

1354:

Whole year 1966 was marked by an extensive one year long world tour that starded on February 13, in Paris, and ended on December 31, in Toulouse. She toured From Canada, Latin America to Arab states and across Europe. In January El cordobes was her first EP of the year, and it achieved big success in

1345:

In late September she released EP Il silenzio, and album of a same name. The song Il silenzo was recorded in several languages and achieved big sales success and topped charts in Europe, Canada and Latin America, becoming her secong big entry there. Scandale dans la famille also recieved high success

1328:

Last release of the year was Amore scusami in November, wich she promoted through TV appearances and with the scoptione video for B side song Je n'ai jamais pu t'oublier. The EP was her biggest success of the year peaking number one in French charts and earning her a golden disc. At the same time she

1315:

In January of 1964, she immediately started a new world tour from Fort-de-France where, welcomed by a huge crowd at the airport, journalists wrote that she received a welcome as strong as of General de Gaulle, a few months previously. In support of tour, she also released an EP Ce coin de terre, wich

1242:

In June, "Les enfants du Piree" was released released and quickly became her first big international succes and a million seller. Recorded in five different languages, song became the summer success and chart topper across Europe, primary in France. In Italy she was awarded with "Oscar di popolarità"

1019:

you both agreed about "...was a French vocalist and actress, born in Egypt to Italian parents." and I agree too, but I reverted it to my edit because right now I and some editor focuse on "career" part of article, and many fans have violated Dalida as they simply "jump in" to article, as unregistered

306:

Well the text was obviously not enough understandanble so you messed up the fact that 421 dice game had to deal about will men attend the singing contest. 3 different biographies and movies from 2005 and 2017 explained this happening like this: "Morisse, Barclay and Coquatrix are in cafe. They can't

285:

I've amended the first few paragraphs of the text to what I believe is a more appropriate tone. I've tried to keep all of the existing references, and all of the pertinent information, while cutting out peripheral details, simplifying the language and making it more impersonal. You might want to look

148:

There is a HUGE difference between citizenship (aka NATIONALITY) which is nothing but a piece of paper, and your DNA, your blood, your race, which makes you what you truly are. PS: Dalida did NOT possess any papers as being from France, neither by birth or naturalization: she had Italian and Egyptian

2272:

above why I made the changes - surely you are aware of the fact that DalidaEditor's latest revert was not challenged by me? What am I expected to do, in addition to a) explaining why I reverted and b) not persisting?) nor previous discussions based on actual linguistic research on usage (which in my

1833:

we need sources - what a baffling statement to make! If there is disagreement about what is the case, we use sources to discover what is in fact verifiable. Some individuals have a personal preference for "actress", which is the only appropriate reason to consciously use that term about them, and if

1767:

for much more background, and several different sources.) I would not go around the encyclopedia changing all instances of "actress" to "actor" since "actress" (unlike many other female-marked terms for professions) is not entirely obsolete or offensive, but when it has been changed to "actor" which

1295:

Then she decided to dedicate herself more to filming so she went for three months to Hong-Kong for filming L'Inconnue de Hong-Kong. During filming she recorded Le jour du retour, that recieved success in Canada, peking on its charts in July. The movie was released in August, just before beginning of

1132:

you shouldn't be saying that you decided to leave the introduction 'unfinished', or suggesting that other editors are jumping to change the article, because we are working on the Career section. Anyone can edit the article, and we don't all have to be working on the same part at the same time. If an

937:, which became the Christmas number one in France and Belgium. Its B side "Si je pouvais revivre un jour ma vie" reached number one in Canada. By the end of the year, she had received three more golden discs, and again compiled previously released EPs on two new albums; "Gondolier" and "Les Gitans". 567:

What do you think about the changes I've been making so far? I'm not as familiar with the subject matter as you are, but I hope I've retained the key information while adopting a more appropriate tone. Do you think that you would be able to write in this sort of style with any further stuff you want

111:

Same thing for Dalida. She made her whole career from France so she is French singer, o matter that many people from Italy loved her and that she was in their Top5 favorite singers. Even Egypt, so what thay Salma ya salama and Helwa ya baladi are songs about love to homeland? It doesnt mean that she

99:

1 I never said I was a site owner, I said how I'm president of a Fan club so that's why I think I know best what to write about Dalida. 2 Yes, administrators warned me because I have constantly abolished someones editing that Dalida is also "Egyptian-Italian singer" without going to discussion page.

1548:

I've finished editing that text - sorry it took a few days to find time to complete it, there was quite a lot of material. It's all in my sandbox now - feel free to copy and paste it from there. Note that one thing I haven't done is go through and format the titles of songs, films etc. I think that

1299:

The tour was a triumph with sold out concerts in Germany, Canada, Hong Kong, Fort-de-France, Brazil and the Eastern countries. During a concert in Warsaw, she discovered that an collection of shoes "Dalida shoes" was named after her. In Saigon, the enthusiasm was such that the police must intervene

1277:

In January she toured Canada where Tu peux le prendre peaked number one. On February 5, 1962, in a French TV program Toute la chanson, she caused a sensation by interpreting La leçon de twist, accompanied on the piano by Johnny Hallyday. It was followed by release of her second yé-yé hit Achète-moi

1251:

Back in France, as the new musical wawe yé-yé appeared while she was still a Music hall singer, recording the song "Itsi bitsi petit bikini" in September secured her popularity. Today one of her signature songs, it became late-summer international hit as it peaked chart positions in West Europe and

1090:

You should not have reverted it to your version, as it makes no sense like this. If you agree, as you say you do, that "...was a French vocalist and actress, born in Egypt to Italian parents" is a better locution, please change it to that. Or if you prefer, I can do it if you're busy on the other

664:

Oh no I didn't copied literal text. And yes, this helps in future and I will use it. Regarding evergreen; evergreen is english word that indicates that something is always green/young, fresh, new. In Croatia we use word "zimzelen" for trees that have leaves during winter "zim-zima-winter", and word

529:

No, this text is from my head and I wrote it down in English immediately, not that I translated. But the informations are not invented by me haha, I learned all this from books and from websites of Dalida. All books I read are in French so some words and sentences I didn't quite understood so those

182:

I'm pinging you because you've obviously put a huge amount of work into this very detailed article. I wonder though whether you have considered whether the style of the prose is appropriate for an encyclopaedia. The lede and the 'Childhood in Cairo' sections are very good - factual, straightforward

152:

How many French people do you know who are of French birth and blood and speak with a strong Italian (or foreign) accent?! I rest my case. IF you're not racist, then don't deny Dalida her true birthright, blood, DNA and race. Otherwise it makes you ignorant (this is not an insult, the word is to be

144:

You can cry all you want that you're not racist, basically what you are doing is appropriating a colored person for "white people". She was NOT Italian, she was NOT French she was Egyptian, by blood, by birth. She didn't even live in France until she was in her late 20's or her 30s. So if I move to

107:

Singer affiliation with a state is another. That means if some singer is Egyptian-Italian, it doesn't need to have anything to do with his/her nationality. The singer can be half Portugeese half English like Shawn Mendes and as he is be born in Canada he god the canadian nationality. As he lives in

1367:

During summer, on a Italian TV in Rome she interpreted Bang bang, her number one success of the moment in Italy and Argentina. In September her italian managers suggested her to participate with Luigi Tenco, a new avant-garde cantautor, at the next Festival de San Remo. Although she had previously

69:

Yeah right! She sang with a THICK ITALIAN ACCENT! How much French can she be?! Silly! Yours is the most ridiculous claim LynwoodF and you know it! It's as dumb as calling Olivia De Havilland French because she moved there in 1953 and her last name is obviously French and she probably married a few

1942:

and found there: American actress, French actress, Swedish actress. It seems to me that the replacement of the “actress” by the “actor” is not a consensus at the moment. Perhaps need a broader discussion of this issue, rather than edits in a single article." In other words, there is no consensus

1865:

not at all. Maybe actress is becoming old fashioned word in your universe, but here on Earth not. It has more politicall connections due to recent gender ideology. The third view on my own talk page decided that actress stays as all female actresses on wiki are called actress. We are not going to

1790:

Dalida is women. Female version for actor is actress. That is not old fashioned, that is reality. Keep your attempt to inflict your modern opinions private, not on wikipedia. We don't need any sources to provide. Btw you are the one who changed actress to actor without any discussion in the first

1358:

Also, as of January, Dalida employed her family and worked decisively with her cousin Rosy as her secretary, and brother Bruno as her artistic director. In May she met El Cordobes in Toulouse during a Corrida, so he dedicated her a taurus as she dedicated him the song earlyer. The following month

1264:

In 1961 most of all songs released by Dalida were covers from forgein singers. In January, she released "Garde moi la derniere danse" that charted second, just after "Itsi Bitsi Petit Bikini" and remained her biggest French hit of the year. Then she went on "Dalida internationale" world tour that

478:

Yes, everything you said is true. The best I can do is to further upload text following wiki parametres, but it will still need a large help from other wikipedians. Btw native Croatian with 10 years of experience with English, and 5 with French. I am noted as perfect speaker, but my mother tongue

31:

Dalida was an Egyptian-Italian, period! She was a singer in France, where she became famous but NOT a French singer!!!! She became famous in France, where she sang in French, with a dreadfully accented Italian accent. She couldn't speak proper French, that is NOT a French person! At best, she was

1828:

more common, and more neutral. Of couse different languages work differently, and some other languages (such as French) have gender marked nouns used in different ways, but we can't apply knowledge of how other languages use gendered terms to describe English. There are multiple reliable sources

1332:

In February 1965, she embarked upon world tour, in Canada and Europe, and released Top 10 charting EP Viva la pappa. The B side song La sainte totoche was applauded by critics as it touched the theme of "the hypocritical behavior of men towards women". In poll conducted by IFOP on April 24, 1965

1319:

The tour's French leg started on 11 April where she traveled 30 thousand kilometers by using only car, during its five months run. The TDF 64 Tour was incorporated where she performed on a giant podium, in each stage city of the Tour de France 1964. An iconic moment was her entry on the scene on

1255:

Then she completed her world tour that lasted whole year, spanning across whole Europe, Canada and several Arab states. For Christmas, she recorded EP "Joyeux Noël Dalida" wich was promoted next week in the new year's eve "Dalida show". It was broadcasted on French TV for welcoming 1961 with the

869:

Over Christmas in 1957, Dalida released "Gondolier" wich became her biggest hit since Bambino, earning her third golden disc. Topping international charts, it's B side song "Pardon" also proved popular as it topped charts in Canada. In March, "Dans le bleu de ciel bleu" was released and replaced

207:

Thank you very much, I am glad that you pinged me because in this way someoneat least explained how the work I did is good, but not suitable for wiki. Exactly that is problem of this article, as I'm a huge fan I'm also trying to complete article in as much as neutral point of wiew style, plus my

183:

prose providing relevant details. After that however, it starts to read like a biography, or even a fan site. The language is very colourful and effusive, which can be great in the right context, but what we should be aiming for here is formal, impersonal and dispassionate. If you have a look at

1286:

In September 1962, in front of large audience on the first floor of the Eiffel Tower, Dalida interpreted her new song Le jour le plus long wich immediately recieved music video where she was dressed as a soldier and sang in a war atmosphere. It was distributed by Scopitones in cafes, and gained

873:

In June, she embarked upon a "TDF avec Dalida 58" tour (Tour de France avec Dalida). During the summer, she performed in Algiers, supporting the morale of French soldiers who fought in Algerian War. In July, she recieved Coq d'or award for song "Les Gitans". Around this time, she had five songs

673:

Writing this now I've just realized that for English speakers this was completely confusioning use of word, so the better way would be "one of well remembered songs"... I am not quite sure how to describe song of a singer, that is one of severals songs that are still well remembered. But it is

2573:

Thank you for your reasoned response. I completely agree with your assessment that this is a windmill. It's often a very bad idea to be involved in topics you actually have expert knowledge about on Knowledge, and I'm definitely not going to pursue this any further since (as I have pointed out

921:

Over Christmas in 1957, Dalida released "Gondolier" which became her biggest hit since Bambino, earning her third golden disc. Topping international charts, its B side "Pardon" also proved popular, reaching the top of the Canadian charts. In March, "Dans le bleu de ciel bleu" was released, and

1311:

Her end of year bestseller became song Eux, after wich album Eux was named. Song was recorded in four languages and sold more than one million examples of accumulated international sales in fourth tertile of the year, for wich she was awarded with her first Oscar mondial du disque de l'année.

1268:

Tour was followed with release of her "Canta in italiano" EP, and several other songs that entered top 10 like "24 000 baisers", "Nuits d'espagne" and "Tu ne sais pas". In April she made "Pepe" number one hit in Germany. In late spring she went to Italy for filming movie "Parlez moi d'amour".

1918:

becoming old fashioned, that has nothing to do with me or my opinions - as I already said - it is shown by independent research, which is the only way to find out how language changes and works), and how can a word have political connections? If you mean that it is not a true change but only

1341:

Following it's release in June, La danse de Zorba became summer hit and dance of the holidays, as in the discotheques people were unleashed on its rhythm. On TV, Dalida interpreted it barefoot, creating an inspired choreography. Song charted number one in France, in Brazil and entered Top in

1475:

and am going through the copy editing. When I'm done, I'll stick it back on your sandbox underneath your original. One quick question at the moment - the first section mentions 'the new musical wawe yé-yé' - what is that? Is it a musical (meaning a piece of musical theatre, like Cats or Les

2043: 1133:

edit is unsourced, or badly worded, or is plainly wrong, then by all means revert - but don't do it because you are working on a different section at the moment and intend to come back to the introduction later. That kind of approach is probably why people have accused you of attempting to

253:

I've had a look at the Career section, and I think that the same issue with tone appears there. There is a great deal of unnecessary detail, which would be appropriate for a book of biography, but not for an encyclopaedia article - we are trying to summarise key information and present it

1238:

First hit of 1960 was song "T'aimer follement" released on EP that topped charts of France and Belgium in February. Then she embarked upon a "Elle, lui et l'autre" world tour. The next EP "Romantica" was second hit of the year as it reached peak positions in France and Belgium in April.

1644:. It still has to be changed and fixed alot because it seems like a bunch of scattered informations. You can be free to change complete style so that it has somekind of tone. There are no sources but I will add them by time, for save time you dont need to wait for me. Cordially 585:, here's another possible suggestion: when an English-speaking reader not familiar with Croatian or French reads your text, it can sometimes be difficult to correct it into proper English, unless we know what your original intent was. An example is the "evergreen hits" example 1320:

August 14, at Draguignan, when for the first time she become blonde. In June she released chart topper Chaque instant de chaque jour. Tour ended in September as she returned to Olympia for her third concert residency there, wich again proved to be an sold out success.

735:

Can you expand on what this is intended to convey? I understand that 'low speed' means a slow tempo, but 'exotic-high vocal style' - does it means that she uses high notes? Or that she is very dramatic and expressive in her vocal style? Or something else? Thanks!

606:

The second part will be visible only to editors, and not to someone reading the article. Another editor can come along later, see your intent from the hidden Croatian text and fix the English accordingly, and remove the hidden text. So it might end up like this:

103:

Now, Dalida has never had Egyptian nationality. Dalida was born in 1933 in Egypt and automatically gained Italian nationality through jus sanguinis of both Italian parents. In 1961 she replaced it with French nationality through marriage with French citizen.

458:) which have a few hundred search results. From context this appears to mean, "perennial hits" or "all-time greatest hits" or something like that. Guessing now this is just personal or machine-assisted translation from Croatian. (OTOH, "Hava Naguila" is 261:. He arranged an audition for her with Eddie Barclay, and on the 2nd of May 1956 she signed a renewable one-year recording contract with him. Bruno Coquatrix planned a series of concerts for her, including repeat performances at the Olympia, two weeks in 343:, a dice game, which Morisse won. As the owner of the Olympia Bruno Coquatrox joined them, they were introduced to Dalida and all three were greatly impressed with her performance. The three men went on to play a large part in launching her career." 877:

In September Dalida played supporting roles in two B movies; in "Rapt au deuxième bureau" and "Brigade des mœurs". On October 9, she again performed at Bobino, this time for three weeks as the headline performer, where she promoted her last release

932:

In September Dalida played supporting roles in two B movies: "Rapt au deuxième bureau" and "Brigade des mœurs". On October 9, she again performed at Bobino, this time for three weeks as the headline performer, where she promoted her last release

265:, and a tour of the provinces. Her first record "Madonna" was recorded in June as an EP, and was first played on August 28, 1956 on Radio Europe n°1. The record sold well, and was followed by "Le Torrent" a month later which was also successful. 665:

evergreen is actually translated as vazdazelen(always green). Now, evergreen is word that here we all know as English word, and use it only for describing a song that was recorded long time ago(usually songs of 40s, 50s and 60s) and that are

1819:

I have no ida why this appears to arouse such strong feelings, but I ask you please not to comment on other editors in that manner. Another editor harmonised the terminology in this article to current English usage and I simply restored

459: 589:, which clearly comes from literal translation from Croatian; this took me quite a bit of work to figure out, and even then, I couldn't be certain I knew what your intent was. In a case like that, can you please either leave 2519:. One can hardly extrapolate from this to get accurate figures, but if that's anything close to typical, it means that among Wikpedia articles tagged in that category, 98% are marked "actress". As I said at the outset, 2175:

with other articles: I am not aware of any MOS requirement for consistency of word usage across different articles about a similar topic (actors). If a great number of articles about female actors appear to use the word

1086:

and as already pointed out, there are two many nationality adjectives in too close proximity to make sense of this. Furthermore, the fragment "Italian Egyptian-born" is meaningless, since you can only be born in one

2108:

is on the editor who wishes to make a change to an article to persuade other editors of their view. That hasn't happend here yet, and while the matter is under discussion, it should remain what it originally was.

1333:

Dalida was proclaimed the favorite French singer of decade, largely distancing Piaf and a few others. The intellectuals also praised her recent successful concerts at Bobino and Tête de l'Art in Paris.

208:

English is not that perfect because my maternal thounge is Croatian (7 deflications).... so I will keep my mind on this as I continue, but is the "Career" part until 1960 good? I uploaded it recently..

1109:

Mathglot is right, the proposal above is both more informative, and it reads much more easily. Making this change now doesn't affect ongoing work on the career section, so I've gone ahead and done it.

2424:– is there some Knowledge policy that says we defer to linguistic research, over, say, what reliable sources say? And if by "previous discussions" you are referring sepcifically to the arguments at 1553:

as well to make them stand out from the rest of the text - if you think that's appropriate, please go through and make these changes. Let me know if you have any questions about what I've done.

1278:

un juke-box. From April to July she toured across Italy and Vietnam and recorded Le petit Gonzales wich topped international charts and eventually remained her most successfull yé-yé recording.

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Canada. It eas also her second record to sell more than a million. That was followed with Milord, that became hit in Germany and Italy, and produced her first Italian album of the same name.

1303:

Soon the popularity meter for scoptiones placed her well ahead of other singers and she was also awarded with World oscar of juke-box for being most listened artist on juke-boxes in Europe.

112:

is Egyptian singer just because she loved her homeland Egypt where she spent her childhood... amd looking in numbers, Dalida recprded 443 sings in French, 127 in Italian amd 5 in Egyptian.

32:

Francophone, the word you wanted. If you're gonna call her French, might as well call Jodie Foster French, cos her pronunciation is flawless, and you don't hear her claiming to be French.

925:

In June, she embarked upon the "TDF avec Dalida 58" tour (Tour de France avec Dalida). During the summer, she performed in Algiers, supporting the morale of French soldiers fighting the

115:

As far as I'm concerned, I think that Dalida was French who enjoyed highly successfull international career. The correct answer of this dilemma should be in the "personal life" section.

1727:

That edit was made by some random user in course of several vandalism edits. It is nonsense, I restored immediately my previous edit that you can see in current version of the article.

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descriptions in-line in the original Croatian (or French), showing what you originally meant, or bring those expressions here to the talk page and ask native speakers for translations?

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refused joining, she accepted because she saw the perfect opportunity to reach a new audience, especially young people. Since the meeting, Dalida and Tenco developed an secret love.

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Sorry, misunderstood you there - I thought when you were said 'everything you said is true', that included the part about machine translation. I was worried that we might have some

236:

I'll have a look at that section tomorrow and get back to you; if you like, I'll start proposing rewrites of a paragraphs to tidy up the English and adopt a more encyclopedic tone?

2192:. So MOS offers no guide, and neither is there a consistency principle here imho. (Which also means I find the kindly offered 3O opinion above unpersuasive, or not that helpful.) 979:, or something similar. But leaving it as it is, is not an option. If you like, respond below in French how you would like to phrase it, and I'll translate it properly for you. 2460:– I don't see that; looks to me like you're on the bleeding edge of change. Knowledge may catch up in five or ten years, when the reliable sources do. Or it may never catch up. 2245:, neither in general, nor with Dalida in particular. For anyone who believes there is evidence that would support a new consensus about this, probably it should happen first at 1020:

and edit her affliation as singer by their will. So I decided to leave the "introduction" partly unfinished for short period until we finish down below article, and I inserted

2104:, when an editor makes a bold change, it is not up to editors at the article to show why your change is wrong, they can simply challenge the bold change by reverting it; the 2511:

and mouse over the names on the list, it will pop up a snippet and you can see if it names them as an actor or an actress. Starting with the A's, the first "actress" is #8,

2088:, and if an article has been a certain way for some time, even if there is some support that language has changed in a certain area in the interim, if an editor makes a 703:

The type of old song that remains popular is called an "old standard" in English. The term "golden oldie" is sometimes used, but has a slightly different connotation.

2074:"? This has not been decided. English has no "Academy", but professional writers still have to discuss how to resolve such questions in English, and Knowledge has a 1902:

one accepted but old-fashioned and not quite neutral form, to another accepted and more neutral form. In retrospect I should have recalled how high tempers flew at

96:

Fisrt of all I would ask other users that don't agree (because they obviously look st this from fan side) to not insult me that I am racist. I dont act like one.

929:. In July, she received Coq d'Or award for song "Les Gitans". Around this time, she had five songs simultaneously in the Top 10, a record that she still holds. 2309:

yes I understand everything you said but I made problem in communication with my way of my responses, I just led myself according to example of articles like

1864:"Another editor harmonised the terminology in this article to current English usage and I simply restored that (...) actress is becoming old fashioned" -: --> 2466:– I think you're an effective proponent of your PoV, I just don't think that the data is there to support the change you favor in the context of Knowledge's 2149:

One reason it may not be in MOS (if it isn't) is that consensus hasn't formed yet. Discussions about this issue have occurred before on the Talk page of the

1763:

The term "actor" is used interchangably with "actress" for female performers; it is also less old-fashioned and much more frequent. (See the discussion at

1582:

no worry and big thanks for edits and help. Do you like the way that we edit the page and can I ask you for same help with text for next period; 1967-1974?

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replaced Gondolier as number one in France. This release was followed by her receipt of the RMC award, which she went on to win for six consecutive years.

600:"Histoire d'un amour" later became one of her evergreen hits. 339:, met discuss of attending it. Barclay preferred the idea of going to the cinema, whereas Morisse the Olympia. They settled their disagreement by playing 2166: 2162: 2158: 2154: 2140: 1919:

something that a few political activists use, well, that's been disproven for us by the usage-based investigations presented in the previous discussion.

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to clear the surroundings of the performing venue Rex. In Algeria, she became the first French artist to appear since the proclamation of independence.

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Canada and makes his career from there, he is an Canadian singer, no matter how much fame and love he recieves from frans from USA, UK, Portugal etc...

998:, have come up with a wording which flows naturally in English. So I suggest "...was a French vocalist and actress, born in Egypt to Italian parents." 1912:

Maybe actress is becoming old fashioned word in your universe, but here on Earth not. It has more politicall connections due to recent gender ideology

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Gondolier on peak position in France. This release was followed by her receipt of the RMC award, which she went on to win for six consecutive years.

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became first perosn to be awarded with the platinum disc, in this case for accumulated sales of over 10 million records since her debut in 1956.

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Make sense? If you are attempting to translate or use text you have read in French, but are not certain how to render in English, you can just

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template to one section, but probably it would be better to tag the top of the article, since multiple sections are affected, though not all.

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Yes, happy to help with further edits. Again, if you write your text in your sandbox then ping me, I'll copy it into mine and edit it there.

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worldwide charts. In August, she added Maroco and Algeria as a third leg of her tour and released her first single record Wenn die Soldaten.

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What does it mean, 'she didn't pass' - was it a competition? Can you expand on this a bit please so I understand how to amend this? Thanks!

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started from zero in 1960, and has been making steady, slow gains, but remains minority usage in English books. Another factor here is

1182:, and it's not further complicated by saying that she's also French. (I note that we could have referred people to the article on 432:

Dalida Editor, if you're a native Croatian speaker, you must know French or be using machine translation from French; am I right?

2609: 971:. First, this is too many country adjectives piled up together; and second, it is unclear what it means. The previous version, 2180:, that may be indicative of a consensus to use it or it may simply be herd behavior. What's clear from MOS is that there is no 960: 1838:

take the time to read the discussion linked above. It feels like a waste of everybody's time to rehash it again. Thank you! --

1371:

In October, she releasedher last EP of the year Petit Homme, wich gained significant success in Europe, Canada and Argentina.

917:, I've made a few edits to the text below for spelling and clarity. If you agree, please go ahead and insert into the article. 2526:

The right venue for this in my opinion, if your are serious about wanting to change this is not at individual articles like

2301:

thanks for this professional response, I am very sorry that I couldn't do the same when I initially replied this discussion.

2062:, as a French speaker, you are probably aware of the changes going on in French right now, for example, the struggles of the 1359:

Parlez moi de lui was released, which in the future became significant to her, as the songs was discussing her private life.

2198:

To some extent, there may be a generational thing going on. Some of the younger women working in Hollywood might well claim

2581: 2425: 2280: 1950: 1903: 1845: 1775: 1764: 2624: 2329:; all actresses. Why would Dalida be exclusion? Instead obviously someone more professional had to join the discussion. 630: 447: 400: 2523:, so this has no direct bearing on consensus, but it does indicate the inertia of present mass that you are up against. 2169:. You can see how they turned out, and what arguments you find persuasive. (And these discussions link to yet others.) 2500: 1498:

An musical style that has its wiki page. Only thing I forgot was to link some things in text with their wiki pages.

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Hi again - no problem, I'll take a look over it when I get a change, and will let you know when I'm done. Cheers!

2042:

for women in film and plays; and I would have thought it was majority opinion. But, it turns out that it is not:

1834:

you do have sources supporting a claim that Dalida had such a personal preference, please provide them here. And

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Can we deal with it later, when we finish Career secrion the next move will be making new secrion "Artistry"?

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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This isn't really relevant to an article Talk page, but I'll leave a user page message for you but basically

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to deal with very similar questions, such as what happens if a woman is elected President of France? Is it, "

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Dalida talk page is not the place to generally discuss the topic regarding linguistics of some word's usage.

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I Just wonder "former spouse" when she was married AFTER? Also it seems that there vas some kind of bigamy?

187:, there is a lot of guidance there about tone. Is this something you would be interested in working towards? 286:

at the section now entitled 'Decisive Dice Game' - the original text was a bit difficult to understand. Is

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would not. Dalida was born in 1933 and belongs to a generation of women who overwhelmingly used the term

2035: 1881: 1806: 1742: 1682: 1659: 1620: 1597: 1562: 1535: 1513: 1485: 1453: 1415: 1388: 1195: 1146: 1118: 1043: 942: 900: 833: 806: 768: 741: 689: 573: 545: 518: 494: 377: 358: 295: 273: 241: 223: 192: 130: 2100:. So, following a first revert, it should be discussed, which is what we are doing. So that's good. So, 1225:, I have finally made a new text. Please fix any mistakes, make aestheticall changes or anything needed. 1896: 257:

After the performance at the Olympia, Dalida met with Lucien and performed Barco Negro, a recent hit by

2574:

repeatedly) it is a case of variation between two acceptable uses. I'm leaving this discussion here. --

2218:

would trump any preference of her own if they differed; but in this case it doesn't seem like they do.

450:, Croatian uses the historical present as well. Literally reverse-translating "evergreen hits" gives 156: 73: 35: 1711: 254:

dispassionately. For example, the entire 'First contract and debut record' could be reduced to this:

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Well, if people don't take the time to read my arguments or explanations (I am very well aware of

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as I can't quite understand what it means - apart from the offensive phrasing, it's incorrect (it

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OK, understood. Your revision is better; I've made a couple of grammatical changes and inserted.

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supporting the English usage, so again it is nothing to do with personal (or "modern") opinion.

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place. "Actress" in article stayed for over a decade, changing that should be discussed before.

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was clearer, although it didn't include the Italian part. You could adjust that, by saying:

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OK thanks - I thought that would probably be the case from the context, but wanted to check.

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Yes, I remember now, you told me once before your nationality. Sorry about the confusion.

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article. Please check out her article and tell me why can't Dalida have same thing as her.

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This retains the important information, while maintaining a much more encyclopaedic tone.

2512: 2310: 2097: 2089: 1983: 1939: 1082:", the answer is, you could. But that is not what you have, now. Currently, it reads: 793:, another question. The 1967 - 1973 section has the following as the second sentence: 2601:

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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say. From what I can see, the preponderance of evidence doesn't support your theory.

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She sang the song at the Sanremo Music Festival in January 1967, but she didn't pass.

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Continuing the "evergreen hits" example, you could code it like this in the article:

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I'm looking at the start of the 1960-1966 section, which begins with this sentence:

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My plan is to completely change that section soon. I will show you the suggestion.

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Partner(s) Lucien Morisse (1956-1961) (former spouse) Jean Sobieski (1961-1963)

1079: 1067: 976: 972: 17: 2487:, however if you go through the category lists of actors starting at the root, 627:

me here on the talk page and I will give you the proper English for it. Please

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question, but I can't find it right now. If I do, I'll link it. Knowledge's

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unneccesarry now because proposed edit by Girth on my talk is completely fine!

335:, and Lucien Morisse, artistic director of of newly established radio station 2203: 1549:

they should be capitalised as the titles of artworks, and possible put into

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That was my fault and I apologized because I forgot on the discussion page.

731:

Dalida entered the 1960s with exotic-high vocal style songs with low speed.

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either. Surely she is an Italian film actress born and raised in Tunisia.

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The evidence is not available, in my opinion, to overturn long-standing

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I don't know Croatian, but on further examination according to at least

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that actress stays as all female actresses on wiki are called actress.

1640:. After an abstence, I have finally made a new text that can be found 1316:

proved successful as all four songs charted internationaly in Top 10.

2527: 2030:

To the first point: language does undergo change, and in my opinion,

1178:

It's not quite as bad, since it provides a link to what is meant by

611:"Histoire d'un amour" later became one of her top hits of all time. 2483:

One final thought, and this is *not* evidence for my PoV, because

2153:, which can now be found in the Talk archives there, for example, 994:

I agree that the present wording is awkward and I think that you,

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for French you do not understand; bring it to me, instead. Adding

2474:, which requires us to make assertions in proportion to what the 2318: 1186:

for Dalida, but I think what we've got now is probably better).

967:'s edit restores a version which contains the awkward clause, 54:

She was French by virtue of her marriage to a French citizen.

2530:

or at the Disambig page, which are each subject to their own

874:

simultaneously in the Top 10, a record that she still holds.

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and therefore nothing decided there has any relevance here.

2422:

previous discussions based on actual linguistic research...

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Miserables), or are you referring to a new musical style?

1363:

Success of Bang Bang in Italy and collaboration with Tenco

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and a "Lupo d'oro" for the best record sales of the year.

403:

from French. One give-away about this, is the use of the

479:

messes it up as I have Croatian grammar rules in my mind.

2428:, then I'm sure you are aware that they are subject to 2014:

should be used for different women or not, and finally:

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a French vocalist born in Egypt to Italian parents...

399:

Various portions of this article appear to have been

2131:

has an impicit recognition that women can be called

1078:" you mean to question why you couldn't you have, " 462:than "Nagila"; maybe a Croatian/French bilingual?) 92:

Nationality of singer/Singer's affiliation to state

2214:. In the end though evidence from the majority of 1355:Latin America and entered top of European charts. 1260:Year of covers and first Olympia concert residency 1910:provide the sources that support your assertion 2034:is correct where they wrote on your talk page ( 1701:Spouse(s) Lucien Morisse (m. 1961; div. 1962) 1084:was an Italian Egyptian-born French vocalist... 2615:Participate in the deletion discussion at the 1022:was an Italian Egyptian born, French singer... 969:was an Italian Egyptian born, French singer... 2438:– Knowledge is a different universe, I guess. 1265:started in Teheran in front of royal family. 1234:International success of Les enfants du Piree 669:- will never get old, can be listened always. 290:right about this being a machine translation? 8: 2442:on the slightly problematic GBooks corpus... 2188:, but neither is there a requirement to use 1922:The third opinion on your talk page did not 1324:Platinum disc and favourite singer of decade 586: 2092:change and is reverted, they should follow 2141:Category:21st-century American male actors 2050:holding fairly steady from 1960 on, while 2000:about the issue (of which there is plenty) 530:ones are translated via google translate. 154: 71: 33: 2485:Knowledge itself is not a reliable source 2202:as their profession, but I'm pretty sure 2007:with other articles, and a related issue: 2464:apparently I am useless at explaining... 2159:107: Gender neutrality: actress vs actor 2137:Category:21st-century American actresses 1256:audience of nearly six million viewers. 2509:Category:20th-century British actresses 2436:which in my personal universe trumps... 1971:There are a few things going on here: 1080:Dalida was an Italian Egyptian vocalist 1076:why can't Dalida have same thing as her 2078:which addresses some of these points. 2038:) that there is some movement towards 1930:: "I looked at random three articles: 1923: 1911: 1698:The section about short dat contains: 1429:, I made quite big changes so look at 1273:High success in Canada and Asian debut 2505:Category:British actresses by century 2115:I thought there was something in the 1981:whether one version or the other has 1229:1960-1966 International breakthrought 7: 2196:different terms for different women: 952:Italian Egyptian born, French singer 454:(m-noun genitive pl. form; nom. sg. 91: 973:an Egyptian-born French vocalist... 1350:Extensive intercontinental touring 1291:Filming career parallel to singing 24: 2155:118: Actor vs Actress terminology 1337:Debut in Latin America with Zorba 2448:did you control for varieties... 1471:OK - I've copied your text into 2046:comparing two expressions show 2444:– A point upon which we agree. 1626:12:35, 16 September 2018 (UTC) 1606:01:29, 16 September 2018 (UTC) 1568:12:37, 15 September 2018 (UTC) 1: 2629:04:07, 17 February 2020 (UTC) 2515:; the next "actress" is #79, 2426:Talk:Actress (disambiguation) 1904:Talk:Actress (disambiguation) 1765:Talk:Actress (disambiguation) 1541:16:33, 9 September 2018 (UTC) 1522:16:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC) 1491:11:53, 9 September 2018 (UTC) 1462:02:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC) 1421:11:55, 8 September 2018 (UTC) 1397:01:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC) 2470:; the main issue here being 2135:: contrast these two names: 1751:05:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1720:15:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC) 1688:07:23, 1 November 2018 (UTC) 1668:01:24, 1 November 2018 (UTC) 1402:I think this tone is better 719:Description of singing style 169:07:09, 19 October 2019 (UTC) 86:07:02, 19 October 2019 (UTC) 2416:What am I expected to do... 1994:guidelines about this issue 1346:both in Canada and France. 1201:14:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1174:13:28, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1152:09:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1124:09:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1105:05:08, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1052:01:55, 31 August 2018 (UTC) 1024:following the principle of 1008:11:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC) 989:09:46, 30 August 2018 (UTC) 947:08:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 909:00:19, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 842:17:29, 20 August 2018 (UTC) 811:00:30, 18 August 2018 (UTC) 777:17:29, 20 August 2018 (UTC) 746:00:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC) 713:10:13, 19 August 2018 (UTC) 698:01:41, 16 August 2018 (UTC) 648:07:24, 15 August 2018 (UTC) 578:17:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC) 554:17:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC) 523:14:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC) 503:02:10, 11 August 2018 (UTC) 472:19:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 382:07:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC) 367:02:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC) 300:14:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 278:09:57, 10 August 2018 (UTC) 2644: 2610:Dalida Miss Egypt 1954.jpg 2501:Category:British actresses 2167:101: "actor" vs. "actress" 1137:this article in the past. 442:22:22, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 427:22:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 246:23:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 232:21:58, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 197:14:55, 9 August 2018 (UTC) 139:22:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC) 2589:08:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2569:08:47, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2548:08:44, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2388:08:23, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2353:08:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2288:07:35, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2259:07:13, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 2084:There is such a thing as 1958:06:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 1926:I'll quote what was said 1890:05:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC) 1431:User:DalidaEditor/sandbox 1307:Bestseller Eux and TDF 64 327:, other two co-producers 64:08:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC) 48:07:14, 21 June 2019 (UTC) 1853:10:59, 8 June 2019 (UTC) 1815:18:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC) 1783:13:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC) 1068:Claudia Cardinale is an 1066:" you are referring to " 405:historical present tense 2497:Category:British actors 2468:policies and guidelines 388:Translation from French 325:Les Numéros 1 de demain 2410:Surely you are aware.. 460:100x rarer in Croatian 141:--------------------- 27:NOT a French singer!!! 2129:categorization system 862:Gondolier and first 2517:Vivienne Chatterton 2096:and take it to the 2032:User:Revirvlkodlaku 2023:) of the discussion 1296:her World tour 63. 1282:Queen of scoptiones 1247:Transition to yé-yé 631:machine translation 2621:Community Tech bot 2406:Re your comments: 2163:144: Actor/actress 2064:Académie française 401:machine translated 2587: 2412:– Yes, thank you. 2398: 2383: 2348: 2315:Catherine Hepburn 2286: 2268:, thank you, and 2229:Assume good faith 2208:Dame Maggie Smith 2147:Prior discussion: 2072:Mme la Présidente 2048:she is an actress 1956: 1885: 1851: 1810: 1781: 1746: 1663: 1601: 1517: 1457: 1392: 1184:Italian Egyptians 1162:Claudia Cardinale 1063:Claudia Cardinale 1061:the principle of 1047: 1026:Claudia Cardinale 904: 837: 772: 693: 549: 498: 452:zimzelenih hitova 412:rough translation 398: 362: 227: 171: 159:comment added by 134: 88: 76:comment added by 50: 38:comment added by 2635: 2580: 2558: 2476:reliable sources 2465: 2459: 2455: 2449: 2443: 2437: 2423: 2417: 2411: 2405: 2392: 2372: 2370: 2363: 2337: 2335: 2327:Elizabeth Taylor 2308: 2300: 2279: 2239:WP:EDITCONSENSUS 2216:reliable sources 2086:WP:EDITCONSENSUS 2068:Mme le Président 2044:this ngrams plot 1998:prior discussion 1949: 1900: 1874: 1872: 1863: 1844: 1799: 1797: 1774: 1735: 1733: 1680: 1677: 1652: 1650: 1618: 1615: 1590: 1588: 1560: 1557: 1533: 1530: 1506: 1504: 1483: 1480: 1446: 1444: 1413: 1410: 1381: 1379: 1193: 1190: 1180:Italian Tunisian 1144: 1141: 1116: 1113: 1091:section. Adding 1085: 1081: 1073: 1070:Italian Tunisian 1036: 1034: 1023: 978: 974: 970: 893: 891: 826: 824: 761: 759: 682: 680: 626: 620: 612: 601: 538: 536: 487: 485: 416: 410: 392: 351: 349: 259:Amália Rodrigues 216: 214: 123: 121: 2643: 2642: 2638: 2637: 2636: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2617:nomination page 2603: 2552: 2532:local consensus 2493:Category:Actors 2489:Category:Actors 2430:local consensus 2399: 2382: 2368: 2357: 2347: 2333: 2302: 2294: 2241:for the use of 2151:Manual of Style 2117:Manual of Style 2052:she is an actor 2028:Facts of usage: 2012:different terms 1975:the real-world 1894: 1884: 1870: 1857: 1809: 1795: 1761: 1745: 1731: 1696: 1685: 1678: 1675: 1662: 1648: 1634: 1623: 1616: 1613: 1600: 1586: 1565: 1558: 1555: 1538: 1531: 1528: 1516: 1502: 1488: 1481: 1478: 1456: 1442: 1418: 1411: 1408: 1391: 1377: 1365: 1352: 1339: 1326: 1309: 1293: 1284: 1275: 1262: 1249: 1236: 1231: 1219: 1217:60s section (1) 1198: 1191: 1188: 1149: 1142: 1139: 1121: 1114: 1111: 1046: 1032: 954: 903: 889: 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