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corrected it only to end up getting banned from editing the article and served on my old talk page and abused) - it surprised me that
Knowledge would take--back then and now--such a partisan stance on the topic. I get that it's slowly been stacked by far leftists, but supporting communist radicals over the official name that the people, government, and foreign nationals know a region as is a bit absurd. Although it wouldn't be the first time Knowledge has found itself in bed with terrorists. Cough, Lockerbie, cough.
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use of a stroke appears to be common in both
British and Hiberno English in the context of Derry/Londonderry considering it is in Northern Ireland with the county bordering the Republic of Ireland and the city being close to the border so some crossover between the two dialects can be expected. It is also worth remembering that in Hiberno English spelling is aligned with British English unlike American English. If this is helpful, this guideline appears to be in favour of continuing to use the slash.
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searches for "Derry~Londonderry" with a tilde throughout the UK including
Northern Ireland since 2004 although "Derry/Londonderry" with the stroke was still more popular in searches from NI than searches for "Derry-Londonderry" with a dash. My comparison for searches from Ireland (Republic) over the same period yields similar results. However, there is the possibility that "Derry~Londonderry" with a tilde could be used informally when
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possible to provide them with an answer without implying we are a style guide to be imitated. I suggested the Style Guides section because it seems the logical place at present, but a separate
Knowledge Usage section would also be fine by me, even if it only says basically something like what you have just said above ("Knowledge ... follows reliable sources.") with perhaps a few Wikilinks to relevant sections such as
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this info (as I do). However I'm reluctant to try without first hearing positive feedback from here, both because I'm not too sure about what our usage actually is, and because reliable primary sources would not be a problem, but the likely shortage of
Reliable secondary Sources probably would be, so that I suspect one could only include it by citing
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sense to me. In the context of COMMONNAME and ENGVAR. As it doesn't, it seems, to the (apparently mostly
Ireland/NI/GB-based) editors who've questioned the proposed change. Almost all of whom, I note, have had their input questioned/challenged (in a way that, to my read, is at least partially covered under
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which states "Knowledge does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable
English-language sources)" The stroke appears to be the most
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I feel the article would be improved by saying something about
Knowledge's own usage in the Style Guides section, as that might be of interest to quite a lot of people (including me, both as a reader and as an editor), and because its omission probably must look rather strange to readers who may want
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which states that although words common to all varieties of
English are preferred a particular dialect of English (formal not colloquial) should be used if there are strong national ties to the topic. This is known to apply to spelling and grammar but could also potentially apply to punctuation. The
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Well, I simply don't agree with that premise or argument. To my ear and my eye, the slash/stroke separator is commonly used when referring to the topic. So much so that the punctuation/separator become a form of short-hand for the topic itself. "Stroke City". Ignoring or overriding that doesn't make
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I have taken the liberty of performing a Google Trends comparison considering it is a recommended source for determining the most common name for a topic although it should be taken with a pinch of salt. When narrowing down to searches from the United
Kingdom, I found there were actually much more
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Thanks for your feedback. I don't think Knowledge has any clear style guide on this particular matter (though if it does, I would love to see it mentioned in the article). But I think interested readers are entitled to know how we deal with the question and why, and I think it should be perfectly
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Perhaps, but soap-boxing or not, the originator has actually raised a reasonable question regarding our usage that some readers might want to see answered, most logically in the Style Guides section. But supplying such readers with an answer might be complicated given our rules, so I've tried to
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I remember many years ago when Knowledge first started I corrected 'Derry' to Londonderry (not knowing there was all this backstory to it - I tried to find Derry on Google maps and at that time it wasn't listed as a secondary name, so I assumed it was someone using slang, and innocent minded me
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in support of the proposal, but opponents of the move argued that the COMMONNAME status should overrule the MOS guidance. This latter argument had a sound policy basis (as COMMONNAME is a policy, whereas the MOS is a guideline), leading me to find a consensus against the move.The proposal also
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The stroke proposal isn't what the article is about. It's about the names "Derry" and "Londonderry". You can see that the "Derry/Londonderry" proposal is not official or widespread in any capacity, and neither side of the debate actually uses it. It only appears in the article as a couple of
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I don't think it's appropriate to mention Knowledge's own style guides here. Knowledge isn't a trend setter, it follows reliable sources. Mentioning it here could imply that Knowledge is a source of a style for others to use and I don't think that's appropriate.
745:. Even so I'm of the opinion that Knowledge should not put its style guides in an encyclopaedic article like this, other usages and guides inform us we don't want to be the ones informing others from a process perspective.
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No, it is not. The dispute is commonly named "Derry/Londonderry name dispute", not "Derry–Londonderry naming dispute". The MOS does not overwrite the common use. Nor can the MOS be used to introduce a new term.
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Why is this seen as a fair compromise? To have City as "Derry" and County of "Londonderry" when pageviews show the former with more than 3 million all-time views, and the latter with 700 thousand.
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might or might not also be relevant; and so on). After all we are supposed to be here to inform and serve our readers, not to keep them in the dark on the basis of unhelpful rules or traditions.
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Might I recommend Conservapedia if you find Knowledge too leftist ;-) Anyway these talk pages are for discussing improvements to the associated article not so that people can soapbox.
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isn't titled with the slash name. Neither Nationalists nor Loyalists actually use the slash name, and both object to it. A dash would put both the actual COMMONNAMEs on equal footing.
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Already did, that's why I asked you in case I missed anything (it's your claim, after all, you're the one who's supposed to prove it). I can't find anything definite, only
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I see no advantage at all. The MOS is not leading in this matter but the common use outside Knowledge. The proposed name is plain unused there.
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common separator between the two names when they are used together in English-language sources giving rise to the nickname of "Stroke City".
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That's the exact opposite of what it is outside Knowledge. "Derry" and "Londonderry" are the COMMONNAMEs, while "Derry/Londonderry" isn't.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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The Apprentice boys were a bunch of working class youths engaged in armed rebellion against King James. That sounds pretty radical to me
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included a phrasing change from "name dispute" to "naming dispute", but this aspect of the proposal was not discussed at all.
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Consensus emerged that, among sources seeking to use both "Derry" and "Londonderry", the "Derry/Londonderry" spelling was the
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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The way I see it, this would be endorsing the non-COMMON slash name, which is POV. After all, the article for
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I certainly never intended to badger anyone. Each have raised a certain point, and I simply discussed it.
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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redirect and section, the separator used outside the project is the slash or "stroke". Not a dash. Per
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Can you prove that the dispute itself has this specific COMMONNAME with this specific punctuation?
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898:) comes from the stroke in Derry/Londonderry, it's not nicknamed "En-Dash City" or "Hyphen City".
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1176:"The Derry/Londonderry Report on Upholding the Human Right to Culture in Post-Conflict Societies"
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and a mere 2 books that almost definitely got the name from Knowledge. Nothing to prove a
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to
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Unknown-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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Knowledge Manual of Style for this issue can be found at
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On 6 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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Derry/Londonderry name dispute#Response to the dispute
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Unknown-importance Northern Ireland-related articles
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Knowledge:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
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Template:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
