Talk:Dwarves in Middle-earth

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names, which would not be used around or known by non-dwarves. The name "Gimli" for example, cannot be a representation of his Khuzdul name, since it used by Men, Elves and Hobbits. This is clear in LotR appendix F.I ("Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin.") and in F.II ("The still more northernly language of Dale is in this book seen only in the names of the Dwarves that came from that region and so used the language of the Men there, taking their 'outer' names in that tongue.") The referenced essay "Of Dwarves and Men" in HOME XII, although not canonical in not being published by Tolkien himself, still agrees with this: "The case of the Dwarves of Moria was an example of adoption of names from Mannish languages of the North....", and even explicitly disclaims a connection between the inner and outer names: "Whether the adopted names that had meanings were selected because these meanings had some relation to their secret 'inner' names cannot be determined." (Actually I think this article should refer to the published LotR appendices rather the unpublished essay.)

1022:) the newer conception was well-established, continued in LOTR. I believe the "Diaspora" element and the Semitic-styled language is crucial to the "Jewish connection", but before those elements came to be... in short, I still think Norse and fairytale dwarves should probably be mentioned first. Perhaps we could mention those first but add "particularly" to "inspired by medieval Jewish...". Of course, the Norse dwarves are already bearded smiths/metalworkers and makers of treasures. OR, but the story of the 740:"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of the other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone.'" ROTK Appendix A III Durin's folk. 962:

sources to confirm them. My rationale for putting the Jews first is that the sources I have (chiefly Tolkiens Letters and the HoTH), put greater emphasis on the Jewish nature of the Dwarves rather than the Eddaic (to which I can only find references to the names being taken) or the Grimm. The aspects of being smaller along with mining and metal etc. are found firmly in Grimm, which is more likely to be Tolkiens first contact with dwarves. Although this is

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same state as they were earlier in the diaspora, and that they no longer exist as only one or two minority groups in a uniform society as they did in Medieval and parts of Early modern Eutrope (the other displaced group having been the Roma), but in a world teeeming with more and more refugees, immigrants and returnees from fallen empires, some of mixed race, makes us have to go back in time to understhand the way in which the swaves could be Jewish.

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took their names from the people the live amongst, and kept their true names hidden and that the Dwarf names given would be Mannish in origin (the long essay in HoME Vol 12 "Of Dwarves and Men"). Of course, Tolkien knew the Eddas and there are Dwarves in them, are there some sources that the Eddas Dwarves provided anything more than just the names? --

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Middle-earth is not a continent. Middle-earth is the whole of the world, as opposed to Valinor, which after the fall of Numenor was removed from Middle-earth. Numenor was part of Middle-earth before it sunk. True, this leaves us with no designation of the land-mass on which the whole of the action of

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It seems like the Dwarves of the Hobbit are clearly Jews, although their time of displacment means they are more early Medieval than contemporaries of Tolkien. The fact that the vast majority of Jews today live in either Israel in a state of return or in the US where they are not seen as quite in the

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It's clear from Letters that JRR intended dwarves to 'represent' Jewish people, and based their language and characteristics largely upon medieval accounts of them. The fact they take their names from the Eddas does not mean they take any other influence from the Norse - indeed Tolkien says that they

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Is there any evidence whatever that "Middle-Earth" is in Tolkien restricted to a particular continent? Since the origin of the phrase is to refer to the entire Earth, the world among the 9 where Men dwell, I would be surprised. But I've turned out to be ignorant before, and I don't want to change an

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Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called the Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. (p. 242, HarperCollins

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reprints the draft text of The Hobbit, but the extensive notes and commentary encompases its relationship to the rest of Tolkiens work, including it's thematic and textual links to the earlier and later Silmarillion etc. I highly recommend it. The order should, of course, reflect the history of the

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I would guess the basic concepts of dwarves as creatures of the earth, treasure-hoarders, skilled in metalworking, mining and smithing, at least - though their shorter size seems not to derive from the Eddas but from later versions, if the Wiki article on Norse dwarves is accurate. I'd say JRR used

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Ok, I have edited the section appropriately. For now I have commented out the linguistic map, both because I don't know exactly how to change it, and because I'm not sure it's actually useful. It seems more confusing than helpful, especially with the compass rose in it that seems to imply there is

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No more than a shallow grot it looked, with a low broken arch; but further in it had been deepened and bored far under the hill by the slow hands of the Petty-dwarves, in the long years that they had dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. (p. 130, HarperCollins paperback edition,

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Within Arda, Dwarves are limited to the continent of Middle-earth (with the sole exception of Gimli). I propose to slightly rewrite the article to change Arda to Middle-earth; this would be more precise, and won't mislead those who imagine that the whole fictional universe is called Middle-earth.

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Ok, in that same section, there is stated a belief among men that dwarves spring from stone, or such. That appears to come from the movie, and thus is non-canonical. I doubt any Tolkein book mentions that (unless perhaps an appendix?), but encourage someone to similarly name a Tolkein source if

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The above link does not work. It may be true but I would be slow to rush. Tolkien was a Catholic, not a Protestant. As such we cannot assume he ever read the Bible. Also is not the Temple Mount most often in English rendered Moriah? How would it have been rendered in the Bible Tolkien would have

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I don't believe this is correct, or at least is not expressed clearly. A dwarf had a secret "inner" name in Khuzdul, and a public "outer" name, in a "northern Mannish" form. The Norse names used in The Hobbit and LotR are feigned to be translations of the outer Mannish names, not of the Khuzdul

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not the weight of influences, unless we change the title of the section to "influences". Incidently Rateliffs only other Dwarf/Jewish comment mentions that the traditional Jewish calendar and the Dwarven calendar begin at approximately the same time (late autumn), in opposition to the medieval

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What is clear is that Tolkien drew a triangle between Fairytale - Medieval Jewish - Eddas and called that triangle "dwarves". Which influences came to him first - I don't know, and the sources I have to hand don't say. Your guesses, though reasonable, are unfortunately just guesses without the

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Tolkien's own opinion on the matter is now in the article. The letter was to the person in charge of the Lord of the Rings radio dramatization, and the forn of the reply, especially the part about accents, does make me think that the question was about similarities between Khuzdul and Hebrew.

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When he came to The Lord of the Rings, where he had a proper language for the Dwarves, he was obliged to pretend, in the essay Of Dwarves and Men, that the Old Norse names were translations from Khuzdul, just as the English spoken by the Dwarves to Men and Hobbits was a translation from

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I found these quotations using the indexes in these books, but I would be interested in a quotation (which would be from some unindexed page) showing specifically that they were hunted "for food and sport". Until then, I've changed the text and citation to fit the sources I've found.

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The only direct statement that I'm aware of is in the Prologue to LOTR, where he says that hobbits are "smaller than Dwarves ... ranging between two and four feet of our measure." Which would imply that dwarves were taller than about four feet, but how much taller is unclear.

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Thank you. John Rateliff, Marjorie Burns, and Bradford Lee Eden are all major Tolkien scholars with many respected publications between them, so the claims in the paragraph are robust. It is supported, too, by the quotations from Tolkien's letters in the second paragraph.

1194:). I suppose he referred to the inappropriate image of Narsil which was indeed useless here, and so reinstasted "Adaptations" section, adding some more commentary (any further input would be appreciated). I have also removed CJRT's map of Beleriand – its inclusion into 1166:

Tolkien as a Catholic would accept Maccabees as cannon in a way that Protestants would not, so this may lead to his understanding Jewish militarism differently. Tolkien was a mass and confession going Catholic among other things, so this is a factor that should not be

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on

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Good edits anon. I'm not sure what the comment relates to, many things are bearded and warlike, and if reliable sources relate them to Tolkiens dwarves then the article should mention them. Incidentally i don't recall any dwarf wars in the Eddas.

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was first published in 1937. There is no possible way that the "representation of Dwarves as evil changed dramatically with The Hobbit," because the "representation" being referred to in that sentence would not exist until 46 years after

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I'm fairly sure seven magical hammers were never mentioned in the Silmarillion, much less hammers which could summon Aule(!), and as far as I can tell this is the only page on the net that mentions such items. Looks a bit bogus to me.

982:(Iceland being the home of the Eddas) on the other hand, has a significantly smaller range of instruments, neither of which appear in the book. Although I think this puts even more weight on the Jewish nature of the dwarves, it is 490:

I am curious as to how Dwarvish is like Hebrew...as far as I recall there is very little Dwarvish in the books, and Tolkien just didn't create a full language for them. And what other similaritiess are there with "the Jews"?

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I agree with the verifiability concerns (the more sources the better) and the singing and instruments - interesting. I've been thinking about the development/evolution of the dwarves, and how it might relate to this. By

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1. You do agree with the current analysis that compares the dwarves to the Jews? So do you really believe that the most spiritually and 'blood line' related place to both (Jews and dwarves) has the same name by chance?

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No, Middle-earth specifically refers to the great continent lying east of Belegaer the western ocean upon which most of his tales and histories take place, as distinct from the Undying Lands in the West, and Numenor in

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I've tweaked it temporarily, will tidy it up when I'm with a decent graphics editor. The compass just tells that Dale is off to the east, not a very contentious point really. Of course the map is also used elsewhere.

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I have heard of a nation, or house of Dwarves called Dourhands. It says in the book there are only seven nations, all of which are mentioned. Is Dourhand another name for a dwarf house, like Durin's Folk/Longbeards?

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and feel free to discount it. On another note, I find the first thread on this talk page very concerning in the editorial precedent it is trying to set, and I may be over-compensating for the "don't mention the Jews"

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However does anything in the Hobbit or even LotR prove female dwarves have beards. Was this an idea present in the Hobbit (where Thorin refers to his sister so female dwarves clearly exist) or was it merged in later

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article is debatable, and here it is surely prohibited - and the image of a "generic" dwarf – the author of the latter intended no connection with Tolkien's works, and its usage here would be just "unencyclopedic".

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I have also rearranged sections, grouping together all in-universe material and moving "Concept and creation" to follow it. The reasons I have already described in a similar discussion that I raised at the

1549:? Perhaps dwarf houses in the mountains, with thatched roofs, timber and mortor, for instance? Alpine longhouses? They were miners and the Nordic people claim to see them in modern times. Perhaps they are 2008:

is one more go at it. For what it is worth, all these link Jerusalem to the lonely mountain, not to Moria. Thus making that above mentioned link of the Temple Mount to Moria not really workable.

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is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

1191:"Adaptations" section, and then by Davémon, with a claim that they "fall out of scope of a limited number of web-resolution screenshots for identification and critical commentary on the film" ( 2921: 2884: 2847: 2810: 2773: 947:

and making them smaller, giving them axes, etc. That's what I meant with one influence "predating" another - poorly worded. So that's why I would mention mythical/traditional dwarves first.

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is an unnecessary content fork of this page. We can easily merge the relevant content from that page into the sections on this page about the history of the Dwarvish race.

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Attributed the claim directly to Rateliff: he is a reliable source and this is his stated opinion. The matter is however not in doubt; among dozens of possible examples,

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aren't dispossessed exiles (no Erebor or Moria to be displaced from). No Semitic dwarf-language at this point either. One major source for the Jewish connection concerns

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has anyone a copy of the 'Rune to letter' translations of the runes pictured? it might be useful/interesting to some. i have a copy in a book, but no means to upload...

991:. Either way I think I've put my case forward as well as I can, and will leave it to you or others to represent the various weights of the influences as they see fit. -- 487:"he Dwarvish language, called Khuzdûl and created by Aulë, sounds much like Hebrew, and one may draw the similarities between the Dwarves and the Jews even farther." 182: 2104: 211: 3130: 3090: 2950: 1809:

No, Middle-earth is the central continent, distinct from Valinor and Numenor and the Eastern continent. In Tolkien it was never a word for the entire world. --

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is never used to refer to Tolkien's Dwarves, so I removed it from the opening of the article and did not put it in bold text. --] 21:22, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I have taken the liberty of removing the section entitled "Seven Hammers", but I encourage the original contributor to submit a reference, if it exists.

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Ending with Brackmann's excerpts from Mythlore is fair and balanced. However, I am concerned about the first paragraph in this section and its validity.

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VERY Bogus. I can't even recall such a reference in HoME (History of Middle Earth) by Christopher Tolkien. Without verification, this needs to go.

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that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material

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Just what Book and comment states that female Dwarves have beards? I've read they're so alike in appearance does not mean they do have them.

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Concept and creation really must come first, it's the only section with any real world context which is what the article should be about re:

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the

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2. The dwarves dispersed after losing Moria much like how the Jews dispersed after losing their Temple, located at Mount Moria (aka the

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With several recent revisions, all screenshots from Peter Jackson's movies were removed from the article, first by CharlesMartel, who

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Interestingly the most pertinent detail to Tolkien I have learned from that article is that he would go to confession before mass.

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The Dwarvish language is (IIRC) based on three-letter roots, like Hebrew and Arabic. Also, some folks think "Khazad" sounds like "

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Moved back to the plural, for consistency with other articles. (And for the vast majority of links) ] 22:02, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1655: 859:. Its the same issue as with the article about Elves so lets have the discussion there to keep it in a centralized place 560:. Speculation on how Dwarves resemble Jews is not wanted here I believe, as it was mainly a philological musing by JRRT. 518:, not here. And we don't want any comparisons between Dwarves and Jews: gem hoarding, beards, etc.—could get nasty fast. 813: 3027:

Yes, feel free to change the ref to the appdx, and to tweak the diagram. I can do the latter when I'm back at my desk.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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As you make it clear it is his stated opinion, and we are not getting into Biblical exegesis here, I'll leave this.

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as potentially being Tolkiens source for the Dwarves warlike behaviour. The books of Joshua and Judges appear in the

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I was wondering if Talkien ever described the statue of his /or the nordic/ dwarfs. How high were they actually?

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Rateliff is claiming the Hebrew Bible portrays Jews as warlike? How is this citation presented and defended?

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the Hobbit and LotR take place, but hey, we have no adequate descriptions for the Euro-Asia-Africa landmass.

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read? How often? What other sources would cause this connection? Did Tolkien ever say the Dwarves were Jews?

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The diagram "Linguistic Map of Middle-Earth.svg" in the article near this text seems to repeat this error.

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You mention three of the clans and the Petty Dwarves. Is it appropriate to mention the clans from the East?

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and defined them with "Jewish" traits and a "Semitic-ish" language, instead of taking stereotypes of Jews

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1286: 1204: 503:". The obvious antisemitic stereotypes get in there, too. *shrug* It's overanalyzing, is what it is. -- 1707:

http://contemporaryreligiousrationalism.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/non-fiction-tolkien-friend-of-jews.html

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Tried to bring some balance. Am I to believe Norse dwarves weren't bearded and warlike (when roused)?

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