450:
The standard study by
Gerhard Reichling "Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen" concludes that 2,020,000 Germans perished as a result of the expulsion and deportation to slave labour in the Soviet Union. One German researcher RĂźdiger Overmans has claimed that only 1,100,000 people lost their lives, but these lower figures and the methodology for obtaining them are disputed by reputable scholars as Dr. Fritz Peter Habel and Alfred de Zayas, who maintain in the newest editions of their publications that the death toll was well over two millions. Czech and Polish sources give a much lower estimate (Czech historians arguing that most of estimated population drop is because of soldiers killed at the front).
591:), despite the detrimental effect such activities have on discipline and combat effectiveness, would indicate that there was sinister intent behind. On the other hand it is hard to tell at this time how much effect Ilya's propaganda had on the thinking of the average soldier, and if there indeed was a well thought-out motive behind Stalins and Ilyas activities, such as to simplify the already agreed upon border changes for Germany, or if it was just indifference, lust for revenge upon german women of all ages, or the natural tendencies of Russian soldiers unleashed when no-one holds them back. I'll leave it at that as I lack ready access to relevant literature, as well as the time to dig deeper.
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well, thanks to Stalinâs massive industrialisation efforts. If it hadnât been for the communist âpeasantâ revolution in China it would have as well. The Fall of the
European Colonial Powers, most notably the U.K, from their position of âGreat Powersâ would probably have been slower, with much more bloodshed than was the case now. Imagine if the U.K hadnât been broke and instead had tried to stay on as occupier in India the same way that the Netherlands tried to stay on in Indonesia, or France in Vietnam and Algeria etc.
638:
General
Gouvernment: 12,107,000 According to p.6 of "Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from East-Central Europe" Volume 1, (Bonn, 1954) the following was the German population of these areas when they were annexed from Poland in 1939: Polish Territories attached to the Provinz of Ostpreussen: 31,000. Polish Territories of the Reichsgau Danzig-Westpreussen: 210,000. Polish Territories of the Reichsgau Wartheland: 230,000. Eastern Upper Silesia: 238,000. Generalgouvernment: 80,000. --
613:
changes in WW2Â ? The map doesn't show the exact date and as German population changed in very significant way during XX century in
Central Europe it isn't neutral. It isn't clear what the map presents, if the map presents those Germans born in Poland or those people who spoke German as mother language ? Second option would indicate he counts occupation in his map. The use of colours is very strange since it hardly shows significant populations of Poles in Silesia left after 1921.
512:", has been found useful to describe other events of the same nature, regardless of when they occured. I'm aware that the name holocaust has been around for a while, but I mean the new meaning it was given. I suspect very few people use it in it's original meaning anymore. I also expect very few Germans left their homes of their own free will, unless you count the large numbers of German civilians who fled their homes before the advancing Russian army. In particuar after
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541:. Which actually most people do (google: armenian genocide 1,970,000 vs armenian holocaust 44,000). Proofs by google can be tricky. I would say most people still use it in its original meaning, while it's also frequently used/abused for rhetorical pourposes - as a dramatic say some suffering was as really horrible (e.g.
794:
whether they would have happened anyways is unclear. I do think that if we are going to title an article "effects of World War II" it should give proportionate space to the most consequential technologies, organizations, and events flowing from the war, this most pivotal historical event of the 20th century.
652:
Article now presents a picture that
Germany was the main victim of WW2, nothing is mentioned about the enourmous devestation made by German armies in WW2 in terms of infrastracture, industry that needed to be rebuilded after WW2 in territories of Poland and Soviet Union, the claim of organised rapes
637:
According to p.27 of the Reich
Statistical Yearbook for 1941 the population of the territories annexed from Poland was as follows in June 1940: Province Ostpreussen: 994,092. Reichsgau Danzig-West-Preussen (not including Danzig): 1,487,452. Reichsgau Wartheland: 4,538,922. Prov. Schlesien: 2,603,550.
751:
Stor stark7, there is no need to get so defensive. You type as if someone had insulted you personally. Molobo's criticism is constructive, a POV tag is appropriate in lieu of a wholesale overhaul. I would like to also add that the rise of the US/USSR/Cold War, the end of imperialism, and the effects
672:
Instead of spreading POV tags around you like fertiliser when you don't like the efforts of other editors, or feel they have not written enough, why don't you be a bit constructive instead and add to the article by writing an additional chapter that describes the effects of the war on
Eastern Europe
879:
I've suggested the opposite: anything redeeming (not much of that though, because it's nearly all unsourced) in this article should be moved to
Aftermath article, of which revision has already commenced as per ongoing discussion there, whereas this article is stagnant and there's been no discussion
628:
In 1921 Pomerania 1921-18Â % of population is German Poznan 1921-16Â % of population is German This numbers obviously don't support the map presented here where the impression is that in those areas
Germans made up almost total majority. And in 1931: Pomerania 1931-9%Â % of population is German Poznan
587:
part of the discussion), Ilya
Ehrenburg, the Russian counterpart to the German Propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, did quite vehemently urge the Russian soldiers to kill all germans and (this is disputed) help themselves to the German women. This and the fact that Russian authorities did little to
555:
To say Russian soldiers used rape to frighten the civilians into leaving like Yugoslavian soldier did is gross distortion of reality. Russian soldiers took their revenge, quite simple. Some Germans were evacuated by German authorities, hard to say how to count that. Millions fled, particulary after
449:
According to Federal Statistics Bureau of Germany in 1958 more than 2.1 million had lost their lives during this process. The monumental statistical work of the Gesamterhebung zur Klärung des Schicksals der deutschen BevÜlkerung in den Vertreibungsgebieten, Bd.1-3 Munich 1965, confirms this figure.
793:
Stor stark7, perhaps you are right about Molobo in general, I was just referring to his remarks in this article. In any case, I don't think it is our job to speculate as to whether any of these things would have happened anyway. The things I listed are pretty much all a direct consequence of WWII;
769:
I think however that we should separate those events that were a direct consequence of WW2, and those events, however âmomentousâ that were pretty much bound to happen, war or no war. It think the U.S. was destined for Superpower status no matter what. The Soviet Union was probably going there as
490:
Knowledge (XXG) articles related to expulsion tend to be POV warfields for years, so I'm a bit sceptical about using them as reference. I suspect most of the German sources do not distinguish among those who were evacuated by Nazi authorities, fled from their own will, had to go because of having
722:
Untill the article describes in detail devastation made by Germany in Central and Eastern Europe and how countries rebuild from it to this date, the egnorinmjusn population loss made by German genocide in Soviet Union, Poland that influenced those countries future, the fact of saving at least 50
612:
The author has ignored massive settlement of Germans into Poland after 1939 (estimated by some at over 1 million with certain number of hundreds of thousands).The author doesn't explain why the same map is used for several different era's-1937, 1945 and WWII ignoring the fact of major population
491:
Reich citizenship and those expeled/transfered because of ethnicity. German law does not distiguis among those categories. Neveretheless, your numbers are reasonably sourced and I don't have time to do a review on topic "estimated deaths in relation to historian ethnicity", so let it be. --
653:
is being repeated. The article is very biased and actually could be renamed German views of the end of the war rather then presenting a wider picture. Please include a wider view, including the fact that at least 50 million people were saved from genocide planned by German state in WW2.
428:
The historically correct number is 15 million expelled people, 3 million of whom died. It was the greatest ethnic cleansing in European history. Poles were expelled from Eastern Poland,too. They had mainly lived there after 1918, whereas Germans often settled in their areas in the 12th
752:
in Asia and elsewhere are given very little or no attention. The rise of the two superpowers is arguably the central effect of WW2, these being the two main victors of the war. Compared to that, the effects on Germany itself or even the Marshall Plan/EU seem to be marginal.
453:
If you are still not satisfied there's this document. It is a bit hard to read, but at the bottom of page 5 you can clearly see that a German Ministry claims that civilian losses due to the war were 1,100,000 and the losses due to the following expulsions were 2,100,000.
773:
As for sounding defensive, this has itâs explanations. Molobo seems determined to rub me the wrong way. I do my best to be civil though. However, considering Molobos recent one year block from English Knowledge (XXG) I guess Iâm not the only one with that experience.
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by expelees. Neither of the terms is without bias and POV. Of course some of the "transfers" were everything but "transfers in human and orderly manner". On the other hand some of those expeled in fact moved voluntarily or were evacuated by Reich's
508:". The lower figure for the armenians is understandable, as the plight of the Armenians is very much forgotten as oposed to the plight of the european jews. Anyway, this seems to me to indicate that a term created at a later date, "
556:
Red Army crimes in Nemmersdorf were used by German propaganda with the intention to strenghten combat morale. If I remember correctly, this flea in harsh winter condition between fighting armies caused major part of casualties. --
668:
Molobo. Knowledge (XXG) is work in progress. Why don't you also complain at the lack of information on the consequences for Western Europe, for the Middle East, for Africa, for China, Japan and the rest of Asia while you're at
580:: But how can you use the term genocide for something that hapened before that term was coined? Genocide was first used in 1943, long after the "Armenian Genocide". You are arguing against your own thesis when using that term.
676:
Since this is the english wikipedia few of its authors have literature describing the situation of the countries that were behind the iron courtain. You obviously have access to literature on the subject, use it instead of
456:
In 1966, the West German Ministry of Refugees and Displaced Persons published statistical and graphical data illustrating German population movements, whether voluntary or enforced, in the aftermath of the Second World
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702:
Not one German does not feel deeply sorry for the many victims of Nazi Germany. Why can´t Poles and Czechs feel sympathy for 15 million Germans expelled from their homes of many centuries? What a lack of
732:
Those countries are now EU members. It was Germany which wanted to get them in and which is the greatest payer for those countries. So be fair like other former enemies Britain, America and France.--
471:
IMO it is propaganda / historical revisionism to call it ethnic cleansing. AFAIK that term was invented for what happened in former Yugoslavia, use of it for post WWII events is as historical as
461:
If you are still determined to make changes, do them in the main article first, and se to it that you reach consensus, otherwise we'll end up with different versions in different articles.
825:
By all means go a ahead, I was not trying to discourage you from adding new material, just giving you my "view" on historic events. You can probably find useful material for the task in the
425:
It is not propaganda to call it ethnic cleansing, when Germans were infact expelled due to their ethnicity. But, seing as the euphemism is commonly used in wikipedia I'll have to accept it.
516:
became known. They were not allowed to return after the war ended. In former Jugoslavia this kind of behaviour, using rape and murder to frighten the civilians into leaving, was labeled as
500:
IMO terms created at a later date are fully justifiable to apply to previous events, when they convey a more precise and commonly understandable description. If you do a Google search for "
333:
693:
Right now I have little time, that is why I asked others to contribute to the article and I certainly believe it needs to be added that it has oneside Germanocentric view of history. --
419:
Expulsion was a euphemism for genocide in World War II; The Nazis used this term to describe the forced deportation of Jews and other victims to death camps during the Holocaust.
900:
It says in the introductory paragraph "the creation of Israel", so Israel didn't exist after the World War? That's not what we learn in our Religion class :O I want an answer!
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clearly shows that German settlement isn't as widespread in Poland as the author has shown on the map. Another example, a list of Polish areas with German minority listed:
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article cover essentially the same topic, and often they have the same wording. Why should there be 2 articles? Anything redeeming and different in
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1. The fact behind the 2.1 Million deaths are official German figures, not something from expelee' organisations.
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Expulsion was a euphemism for ethnic cleansing of territory that had been settled by Germans after World War II.
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2. It is relevant to state that it is mainly Polish and Czech historians who dispute the German figures.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Did a quick and dirty change, insering topics mostly from main ww2 page, thereafter trimming ww2 page.
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IMO Armenian holocaust is also bad term, abusing the word holocaust - I would use
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I am glad that someone is taking an interest in fixing this important article.
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And finally the map conflicts credible scholary data on German population.
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For quite reasonable treatment of expulsions/transfer read
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Please check out the expulsions page before making changes
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million people from elimination by German state etc. --
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3. This is what Knowledge (XXG) says about expulsion:
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halt the mass-rapes (which were on a gigantic scale
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Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#The_results
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Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#The_results
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475:would be.
338:merge to
904:unsigned
827:Cold War
673:instead?
578:genocide
330:deletion
207:Cold War
198:Cold War
173:Cold War
30:redirect
558:Wikimol
493:Wikimol
382:Thanks
372:iva1979
291:History
282:History
241:History
725:Molobo
695:Molobo
658:Molobo
640:Molobo
36:scale.
28:This
912:talk
886:talk
738:talk
709:talk
550:this
457:War.
435:talk
336:was
669:it?
927::
914:)
888:)
774:--
740:)
711:)
680:--
656:--
545:).
437:)
127:/
62::
910:(
884:(
736:(
707:(
433:(
368:S
343:.
96:.
42::
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