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found inscribed with the name Fromo Kesaro - who, it is believed, was a ruler in the region of Kabul in the 8th century AD, and was named after the byzantine emperor to memorialise a defeat of the arabs by the latter in the 8th century. The name then came into
Tibetan, so the argument runs, as "Gesar Phrom", who is familiar as the archetypal "king of armies" who rules north of Tibet and is associated with the Turks in early Tibetan schematised geography. Gesar of Gling, the hero of the epic, shares this title 'Gesar' with this Gesar Phrom or Gesar Khrom, but he is not the same figure, since Gesar Khrom was a foe of Tibet, while Gesar of Gling was Tibet's champion. george fitzherbert
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imported from venetian merchants. The
Emperor of Ethiopia or the emperor of China have always evoked fabulous and fantastic tales in medieval Italy. Why not the same in central Asia….? The events of the distant Roman Caesar or a hellenized Scythian or Kushan king lost in the mists of time, or simply a more recent title “Kayser-i Rum” of Sultan of Constantinople (that is the same title of Tzar of Rus) are easier to mythologize than a closer king. --
879:, a text many centuries earlier than any Tibetan, Turkish, or Mongolian rendition. Etymologically, the phoneme /-s-/ in Old Persia always represents (when intervocalic) a proto-Indo-Iranian (and Vaidik) etymon */-ś-/, so that the protoytpe of the name should be (approximately) */Gaśar/. This has apparently no proto-Indo-European source, but may derive from Elamitic and/or Sumerian : the deity-name most closely similar in Akkadian texts is /
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A far king, often is more evocative. I remember the use of mongol “Khan” in medieval north Italy to see: Can-grande, Can-signorio, Can-grande, ecc, lords of Verona. They intended to recall the myth of "Gran Can", also the clothes of the mummified body of
Cangrande were produced directly in Cathay and
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Roman emperor (Julius Caesar?) with 'Caesar/Kaisar' as a title for successive rulers in Rome and the
Byzantine empires. Unfortunately, from the language used, both Hulin and Li Lianlong appear not to understand anything of this. Indeed, they do not appear to understand that Caesar meant any ruler in
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the argument is that the title "gesar" comes, via a kind of chinese whispers across the civilisations of medieval central asia, from the greek title of the
Byzantine emperor, Kaisar (ie caesar - also the etymology of the russian Tsar). This is supported by the fact that some bactrian coinage was
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The problem is, Stein says absolutely nothing of this kind, and his argument is that emissaries of the Kaisar of Fulin (拂菻) (i.e. the ruler of
Byzantium) influenced the development of the epic in the 11th century(p.292-3). No serious scholar in the West in the last century,(most were trained in
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I agree, they share the same story-kernel and could be merged. there are many versions in
Mongolian (Heissig - Geser Studien 1985) and very many versions in Tibetan. Even within regions/traditions there is considerable narrative variation ( eg Hermman S. 1991 Keser versionen aus ladakh)
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I have added a section of the translation by
Herrmanns (fascinating but in every sense havy book!) and the corresponding reference. Left the unreferenced-mark because I don't know the source of the remaining material in the article and don't have the time to check it.
842:"Combining the variants together, the epic is perhaps the longest literary work in the world, containing over 20 million words in more than one million verses. A given Gesar singer would know only his local version, which nonetheless would take weeks to recite."
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Li
Lianlong's article is far too thin on actual sourcing to past and current Western philology to be a useful source on this (as opposed to many other interesting things he has to say). I do not think the following passage can
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Indeed, is has been proposed that the character of Gesar was based on the Roman emperor, which sparked interest in the epic among
Western scholars in the 20th century, but this theory is now considered highly unlikely by many
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From the current text: "It was this text which formed the basis for the first Western-language translation, published by the Moravian missionary Isaak Jakob Schmidt in 1836. A German translation followed in 1839."
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Han criticizes the far-fetched claim that Gesar was Caesar of Rome. However, his criticism did not reach Gesar researchers outside China, who continued to follow in their predecessors’ footsteps (see Stein
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First this combining of variations wouldn't be valid unless they are distinct stories with non-overlapping verse. Second, it's difficult to believe a person can memorize "weeks" worth of verse.
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can someoen tellme what this link has to do with this article? im feeling pretty stupid right now, wondering what the connection is. i didnt mean to make the delete out of vandalism or anything
883:/ (suggesting an identification of Akkadian "Kišar" with one of Bukhe Beligte's (i.e., Geser's) three older sisters, who were born from their mother Naran Goohon's armpits and navel).
931:(1959) (Xi Zang Shi Shi Yu Shuo Chang Yi Ren de Yan Jiu). Trans. into Chinese by Geng Sheng. Lhasa: Tibetan People’s,Publishing House. pp. 12-41), that Stein believes this nonsense.
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But they are the same story. Surely that means that we should have one article about it. Of course, the differences, comparisons etc should be brought out in the article. --
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Byzantium with an imperial title, and 'Rome' throughout the Middle East through to Central Asia had absolutely nothing to do with Rome, in Italy. So I will remove the section.
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It seems to me that the citations tag is more appropriate. Its not that the language is not neutral, it is that it makes claims that should be substantiated.
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It's similar, and undoubtedly related, but it's not the same thing. The Epic of King Gesar is a Tibetan Buddhist text, the Geser Epic is a Mongolian
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This does not appear to be a reliable source, and I have excerpted it from the article until someone can come up with a RS for the points made.
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I've nominated the Oral transmission section for a POV-check as the prose is less than neutral, and the supporting citations sketchy at best. —
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Russian. His Подвиги Гессер-Хана was published in St.Petersburg that year. This was then translated into German.
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The claim appears twice that the epic has over a million verses and/or takes weeks to recite. For example:
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seems to be about the same thing. Can we merge it in to this article? --
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I.e. he thinks, from reading the Chinese version of R. A. Stein.
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These statements need to be fact checked and references added.
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FYI, I have a source from this claim in Nicolas Tournadre's
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Li's source is Han Rulin (1941/1988), and on p.322 we read
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So what language was the first 'western' translation?
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