Talk:2015 European migrant crisis/Archive 2

886:. It does look like some are random snapshots rather than encyclopedic article support, or at least all these pictures of a crowd or fence that doesn't show anything in particular and are not adding to the text -- that need caption to even say what it is -- seem unhelpful and by far not the best choices. I suggest it would be better to WP norms and to the story to show the more-covered iconic photos, ones of massive crowds on road rather than all these of 20-ish standing somewhere, of drowned child that raised outcry and sinking boats rather than a few of small craft landing somewhere, of crowd swarming over large fence rather than all these images of some random chain-link or unreadable sign. The following images I think could be removed, in order of appearance. : 2450: 2750:, which, as a more detailed article covering the intersection of the topics immigration, crime, and Germany, is better able to provide the necessary context with due weight for all the aspects selected by the title. Including detailed information (e.g. sexual offences by immigrants in Germany) may appear to work if we include only sexual offences and only Germany, but that risks giving undue weight to the sensational and recent, so I would be inclined to restrict the information on crime in individual countries to little more than a link to the relevant article (e.g. 3687:

worthy topic in this article. The article already takes into account several of the "most common routes" but the details are lacking. I do not think that each route needs to be explained in full detail but I do think that the general route to safety that these migrants face would be a good way to include a refugee perspective. In doing so, there rises an opportunity to address the obstacles that are otherwise glossed over in this article; such as crime, violence, persecution, and health among others.

1867:

immigration, but I don't want encyclopaedia articles to read like opinion pieces. The last sentence of the opening paragraph is no more on-topic than it would be to mention in the first paragraph on the Great Britain article that the country in question is home to many terrorists and illegal aliens, or to mention in the first paragraph of the Holocaust article that several of the people killed in the Nazi camps were pedophiles, wife-beaters and murderers.

38: 2876:

selective. The additional context provided by the report is that cases per 100,000 have dropped from over 300 in 1940 to less than 10 for the last few decades. As I understand it, the "migrant crisis" began in 2015; in 2014, there were 7.1 cases per 100,000; in 2015, this increased to 8.5 and in 2016 it decreased to 7.3. So we need to choose what context to provide and what statistics to select. At the moment, we have

3202: 3135: 1017:

was a wider consensus to use them). Anyway, some of those photos could indeed be removed, feel free to do it on a case-by-case basis. I would leave those which show migrants even if they are not huge crowds; I would definitely leave the one in the lead, which is a featured picture perfectly showing the way in which most refugees and migrants arrived in the EU in 2015 (it was even

220:: "Anyone can be bold and move a page without discussing it first and gaining an explicit consensus on the talk page." I do not need your permission before making a bold edit. There are sources which call them "migrants" and there are sources that call them "refugees" and there are editors who favor one title and there are editors who favor the other. This can be the most 3978:, it is clear that immigration in Europe turned into a huge human and political problem (a 'crisis') in 2015, which makes "21st century" unnecessary broad. Having said that, there is probably room for another article about immigration to Europe for a longer period of time (also including the years after 2015). For this article however, I would support a move to 1631:

refugee is not a migrant and a migrant is not a refugee. The two words have got conflated in recent times, but in principle remain entirely different concepts. I have seen that the page "European refugee crisis" redirects to this one. Should there not be a separate page for "European refugee crisis", because this one is not suitable.

1496:, has only three entries from August 2015 and has not been updated since. I'm asking here whether anyone could have a look at it and help update it maybe? It's got other problems and I sort of think it may be a possible deletion candidate if it is not updated. Thanks for looking at it, and also thanks for anyone who helps improve it. 2470:

inference made by some people. The news coverage (sex sells) and public concern may justify more encyclopedic coverage of sexual offences than would otherwise be the case, but we must be careful not to misrepresent the tenor of the report by selecting only the more salacious elements and ignoring the points that are highlighted.

1085:- There's waaaaaaay to many images on there and it makes Commons redundant at this point - I would say the graphs and images need to be cut down as so far there's 45 images (and that's without the "Image:" search!), 10-20 would be sufficent and I'm not fussed what gets removed - Cover your eyes and just smack delete. – 4428:

population in Europe, that has nothing to do with the scope of this article, which is about the migrant crisis. Also, what does exactly "reactions by native citizens" mean? Like, there are hundreds of millions of "native" Europeans, are we going to list the reactions of every single one of them? Even

4093:

this specific rename as too vague - it is clear that the article relates not to immigration in general, or in historic terms, but to a specific phenomenon and the accompanying 'fallout'. Perhaps the title can be improved, but the present title is the nearest thing to an accurate COMMONNAME that I can

2843:

The tuberculosis example seems to illustrate – to a greater or lesser extent –several potential problems. Here I was talking about the journalistic content that probably doesn't belong in English Knowledge (XXG) at all, such as the mention of four cases of tuberculosis in a single hostel. It's not a

2469:

The cited publication reports that the most frequent (suspected) offence by asylum seekers and refugees is theft, mainly shoplifting, but we present a graph on sexual offences. This may not be intended to convey the message "Immigrants are raping your wives and children", but that is likely to be the

1630:

I am concerned about the wording of the title of this article. A migrant is someone who willingly moves to another country for a better life e.g. better economic prospects. A refugee is someone who has no choice but to flee their country because their life is at risk and they are being persecuted. A

1067:

I endorse a lot said by Markbassett above, photographs of barbed wire fencing are the same the world over, it might as well be the railway line near my house. Do 'background' images add anything, I was thinking of map of Schengen area, photo of European Parliament etc, which do not relate directly to

1016:

I would obviously be happy if someone cared to "get better images" to replace the existing ones - until then, I think we'd better use the ones which are available on Commons rather than removing almost all of them (by the way, it wasn't me who added any of the photos mentioned above, so I think there

3686:

The article does not present any "refugee perspective" but rather everything is shown through the lens of the EU and its surrounding politics. Some things that might be worth including are the scenarios faced by refugees while migrating to Europe. For example, detailing the path to asylum would be a

2875:

in 2016 (compared with 2015) as might be expected because of the decrease in asylum-seekers and the fact that most cases of tuberculosis are found in people recently arrived from other countries. So yes, it does establish a connection between the migrant crisis and tuberculosis, but this is somewhat

2856:

An increase in the number of tuberculosis cases due to increased immigration may be valid encyclopedic content (though I'm not sure it is best in this section of this article), but I think the mention of the four cases is journalistic, used to provide "human interest" (i.e. identification of Swedish

2698:

hasn't finished until the migrants have assimilated into the destination country. Of course the sections on other countries could be expanded too. Of course the Cologne sexual assaults belong in this article as many of the perpetrators were migrants who not yet had citizenship of Germany - i.e. they

2465:

Attempted and committed sexual offences by immigrants in Germany 2012-2016". This might give the incorrect impression that the graph is taken from the publication by the German Federal Criminal Police Office. The figures do indeed seem to have been taken (selectively) from that publication. However,

2017:

The article states that the refugees came illegally, but the UN source used in the lead only hints at the economic migrants coming in an illegal manner as they are bound to a nation's law for travelling to it. It states that refugees are entitled to international protection, but doesn't seem to make

1841:

While this might be factually correct, putting it in the first paragraph like this exaggerates its relevancy and gives the article an anti-immigration slant. Of course all sorts of people were "hiding" among the refugees, and it is obvious that the author wants to emphasis the IS operatives in order

1141:

I think that the paragraph about Italian reactions is inaccurate and defamatory. Mafia Capitale scandal was caused by a restricted number of corrupted local politicians, businessmen and criminals, whereas thousands of migrants/refugees have been rescued and assisted by Italian Coast Guard. In Europe

3110:

The section of the page title "Spain," contains some text that directly quotes the article without any quotation marks. This section of the page should be revised and paraphrased instead of being copied and pasted. The text copied and pasted is in regards to citation 322, the citing of the article,

2745:

article. The high-level article must cover all countries and all aspects. And whether we are talking about summarizing other Knowledge (XXG) article or relevant official reports, we need to maintain balance and avoid selecting the more sensational issues. Accounts of crimes by or against immigrants

1866:

The opening paragraph is still not NPOV. The subject of this article is the migrant crisis, not IS terrorism or whether the migrants have valid reasons for asylum or not. Sourced or not, things like this should be discussed further down in separate sections. I can see the case for reducing European

509:

There should be an updated paragraph regarding the latest developments regarding Turkey's threats to kill the deal. For example, biometric passports were just distributed in Turkey, which takes a step towards completing the requirements for visa liberalization. This isn't reflected in the article,

462:

A point espoused by the "Leave" campaigners for Brexit was that if Turkey became a member of the EU, migrant flows from Syria would essentially be able to reach the UK (due to the perceived porous border with Turkey and assumed subsequent adoption of Turkey into the Schengen Area). Either a section

224:

title. This also cannot be called a "European crisis". European crisis means that "a crisis happening inside Europe". This is an exodus to Europe which consists of migrants and refugees. Please do not make empty and baseless accusations that I am making reckless edits. To me, your edits can qualify

3840:

article is justified because of the sheer volume of material, the connection with historical patterns of migration needs to be made clearer. The present title is inappropriate and ambiguous: some would say there is a crisis in intra-European migration but this is not covered by the article (which,

1878:

The Holocaust claim of yours in wrong - the Holocaust was primarily about trying to wipe out the Jewish people; if some of the Jews happenned to be "pedophiles, wife-beaters and murderers" (which statisticly is quite likely, since millions of Jews were murdered), this was irrelevant in context. On

340:

Are you daft? Not only is the Schengen zone fragmenting but tens of thousands of asylum seekers and other migrants are suffering in Greece. I even read a news article that reported that many migrants from Iraq returned home from Germany, one of the two nations that have welcomed migrants the most,

4242:

Is this truly a migrant crisis? The channels of the migration have existed prior to this time period. These migrants were usually temporary migrants sought out from the European countries in question. People would temporarily migrate from Africa to work in Europe then return home following, this

1971:

were actually granted asylum there. The UNHCR never said that this is the number of "actual refugees", it did say that 40% of arrivals are in "need of international protection", and they also mentioned that half of all those who arrived in Italy never requested asylum in the first place, probably

1309:

The German pushed quota system which would see enforced settlement of Middle Eastern and African populations to European countries was rejected and is now no longer valid, mostly due to efforts of Visegrad Group(Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary). Last month EU itself admitted that the

4419:

I reverted your edits because you were misrepresenting sources (like the Independent article about the number of deaths in the Mediterranean, where you wrote "The UN Refugee Agency found that since 2014 at least 18,900 Muslim individuals died while attempting to cross Mediterranean Sea" which is

1183:

It's tough to draw a correlation between the migrants and an explicit increase in attacks. While there certainly are attacks done by migrants in Europe, I'd argue those for the large part are the exception. This is a subjective issue that, if included, would detract from the neutral stance this

597:

What you (Nykterinos) are saying is of course true: the origins section does mention wars in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan. After all, this sort of information could hardly be suppressed. But i think Prinsgezinde has a point as well, that the US government is largely culpable through its wars

1121:

images of border fences that has no migrants in them. I also removed a monument that symbolizes a summit about migration rather than struggle of migrants. I could not remove pictures of migrants yet. Now that consensus from previous discussion agrees that there are still too many files in the

839:? There are certainly many images and graphs in the article, but I don't think they make it more difficult to read - neither on laptop, nor tablet, nor smartphone. On the contrary, I think they are informative - especially graphs and maps -, so I would keep all of them. As for the lead, 2640:

Such an overall conclusion is not useful for an encyclopedia. What if a geographer were to conclude, in the article about Canada, that "most of earth's land surface is overwhelmingly not covered by Canada". Such conclusions are entering the realm of absurdity because they are neither

660: 3075:

Paragraphs 4 and 5 in the introduction do not have any references or citations indicating where the information was received. The paragraphs discuss three different operations and some of their details, yet fail to cite where the information regarding the operations came from.

3013:

I think that the last section of the article should avoid general speculation such as "soon headed towards the next stage of illegal immigration". Also the reference to the talks in Paris in 2017 should be explained further and discuss the policies proposed at the conference.

2382:

Can someone verify if William Ress Mogg predicted the European migrant crisis in 1993? Somewhere in one of his books he laid out the argument for African migration into Europe. It could be the book that is "The Great Reckoning" from 1993. Can someone verify this please?

2021:

Reliable sources preferably from the UN need to be used about what should be defined illegal. It is established that economic migrants came in an illegal manner.But does the same apply to those from conflict-ridden countries? I think answer to these questions are needed:

447:

Euroskeptic parties have been growing in popularity since 2008. Is there any citation to support the claim that their rise has been due (at least in part) to the migrant crisis? Preferably one that's not just from some journalist getting, and not behind a paywall. Thanks

2754:), perhaps with a very brief summary of the overall assessment. The BKA article does seem to do a reasonable job of providing the necessary context and giving the necessary weight to different topics. This is done, for instance, by providing an overall assessment. -- 2670:

Reflecting on this a bit more, I am inclined to think that the last three paragraphs of the Germany sub-section (and the image about the sexual assault protests in Cologne) do not belong in this article at all. This sub-section on Germany is part of the sub-section

4392:

I recently made some edits to include more information regarding the reactions of native citizens to immigration of Muslims into Europe. Going forward, I recommend including some updated events on the matter. Why aren't there already a lot of coverage on this?

550:

I believe it deserves to be mentioned how the United States has been involved in the crisis, and how many refugees they took in (hint: it's none). Also absolutely needed is the cause, the Syrian civil war (and War in Iraq and War in Afghanistan). The leader of

4364:

It has by now turned out that the "scandal" being referred to in the German section (regarding the asylum office in Braunschweig) was a big media show and didn't really happen in that way. The media is under heavy fire for that now. Some sources (in German):

2466:

the graph presented by the German authorities also shows the figures for the same offences where no immigrant suspects were involved (showing, for instance, that in 2012, immigrants were involved in only 1.8% of cases but that this increased to 9.1% in 2016).

2330:

carefully, and consider viewing some examples before opening future requests. RfCs are a process for asking for broader community input in order to resolve particular disputes, and not for broad requests for general assistance. Consider posting instead on

983:

as some of these use the word refugees where the source used migrants or vice-versa. Functionally correct or not, convey what the cite is giving. I think it tends to be migrant for West Africa and refugee from Syria, but use whatever the source says.

840: 3941:. This article describes the crisis that started 2015, and it is made clear in the first sentence. Most sources also call it that way, so this is the correct title. There is also no need for an addition, as this is the most common use of the term.-- 3173:

The German government has created very extreme laws of censorship for social media such as Youtube, Facebook, and Twitter. Accounts that break the rules have to immediately be shut down, or the companies will have to pay 50 million Euros in fines:

3034:

This section could add more information about other Eurosceptic parties in countries such as Austria, Hungary and Germany. It could also elaborate on the increasing number of anti immigration platforms in Europe in response to the migrant crisis.

1524:

500 footnotes. That's too big. I'd love to see some thought about splitting this into a reasonably-sized summary article that is fairly stable with drill-downs into articles about specific situations that are more volatile. Feedback encouraged!

661:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160328233432/http://www.libertaciviliimmigrazione.interno.it/dipim/site/it/documentazione/statistiche/servizi_civili/2016/1_2016_Statistiche_2015_sbarchix_esiti_domande_di_asilo_e_posti_in_strutture_accoglienza.html

1976:

is actually over 5%, and that there is a number of possible explanations for this - Italian bureaucracy, lack of housing capacity, political pressures, etc. - which may or may not have anything to do with whether they are "actual refugees".

664: 578:

crisis. It may be restored (by the way, Obama increased the number of resettled refugees to 100,000 a year; only Germany accepted more refugees in the EU in 2015). Some of the motivations of refugees and migrants are explained in the

1972:

because they moved onto other countries within the Schengen area like Germany or Sweden (Italy is not the preferred destination for the vast majority of migrants/refugees). This all means that the percentage of granted asylums for

1966:

ceased to be considered a reliable source for the English Knowledge (XXG). The reason for this is exactly the sort of misinformed conjecture you posted here - the article which you point to cites UNHCR as saying that only 2.65% of

598:

against various Muslim states, including Syria. However, it may well be impossible to include it in the article since it is largely absent from the narrative presented by sources that are reliable in the sense of the wikipedia.

422:

I agree the page had to be moved back and that further moves need to be discussed first. I think that "Exodus to Europe" is not adequate, primarily because "European refugee crisis" and "European migrant crisis" are the only

3090:

The section of the page labelled "Deaths and Incidences" contains no references or citations. The information provided seems very broad and there is no concrete facts or evidence of the causes of death that are discussed.

3828:, which nowadays in the UK is simply referred to as "Suez", although that's clearly not a suitable article title). It's clear that the contributors to this article don't even agree on when the current "crisis" began (see 2409:

A new study, assembling evidence from thousands of articles published in German media about the immigration crisis in 2015, has found that it largely systematically lied about the situation and published pure propaganda:

3702:

This article is titled EUROPEAN MIGRANT crisis. i. e. it is about the current ongoing increased influx of immigrants. Start an Arabian/South Asian/African emigration article, there u can present migrant perspectives.

3164:

3347:

here recently with the following reasoning: I see no need for a separate article on Finland with this issue since all the timeline-ish data gathered could be more feasibly converted into prose on the main article's

847:, albeit updated only to June 2015, is the richest in information, as it shows both the main entry routes into the EU and the number of asylum applicants per country, with their origins. It may be replaced with 2629:

The numbers presented by BKA on page 15 show, that sexual assaults not involving immigrants are on a slight downward trend whereas when immigrant cases are added, the overall trend is reversed to slightly

2809: 2581: 2551: 2521: 3824:– The use of the word "crisis" in an article title is already non-neutral, and I would suggest such a word should only be used historically of a situation with a defined beginning, middle and end (e.g. 665:

http://www.libertaciviliimmigrazione.interno.it/dipim/site/it/documentazione/statistiche/servizi_civili/2016/1_2016_Statistiche_2015_sbarchix_esiti_domande_di_asilo_e_posti_in_strutture_accoglienza.html

650: 2161: 4243:

would be cyclic in nature. The idea of the European migrant crisis that began in 2015 does not really address the historical aspects and origins of the migration routes. (Particularly with France)

4132:

refers to the increased level of immigration to Europe since 2015. Note also that "in the 21st century" is misleading, as the article is only about events that have been ongoing since 2015. Moving to

295:

That's why I put in timeline in the title and once the issue is over it can be changed to 2015-nn Exodus to Europe. The timeline in the title and then the article itself describes what exodus is that.

3153:

I might get topic banned soon, so I would greatly appreciate if somebody could please evaluate, possibly reword, and if it is deemed appropriate add the following references to this page. Thank you.

1202:

There are statistics from various governments. The German BKA statistic shows an increase from 77,298 felonies involving migrants in 2013 to 289,753 felonies in 2017. This is an increase by 274.85%.

186:

have reverted back with that flippant edit summary. Do you really think you're the "sheriff" here? I've seen a bit too many "slightly too bold" edits coming from you lately, if I may point that out.

4429:

in that section you focus on the "reactions" (namely, some incidents) involving native Europeans and Muslims, but again, the article is not about Muslims in Europe, it's about the migrant crisis. --

4032:

of migrants to Europe was only the case in 2015, and that the situation after that came back pretty much to what it was before. Events in the article seem to focus on 2015. Alternatively, I suggest

2880:"In 2015 an increase of 22% on the previous year was noted, this was largely attributed to an increased inflow of migrants over that year. 90% of people infected with tuberculosis were born abroad." 1232:. Both were written by someone called "SOOPERMEXICAN" and I'm not sure if this was a sneaky way of trying to insert this into the website. Either way, it doesn't look like it'd be considered a RS. 2620:, thanks for delving into the source given. Yes, I agree that we should present a more balanced view rather than outright deletion. I didn't find a page from BKA on its copyright policies, like 4157:

While the current name is indeed not fully neutral, it does conform to what sources call it, and apparently has no real alternative; "Immigration to Europe in the 21st century" is too generic.

96:

What is this? The fact there wasn't agreement on whether to call it "migrant" or "refugee" doesn't necessarily justify a unilateral move to something entirely different and a word as loaded as

4309: 2434:

Since there has been a lot of public discussion about immigrant crime, it is probably appropriate to discuss it in this article but it must be balanced. In particular we need to remember that

2080:

I need help with evaluating which of the following information that should be inserted into the article, and would appreciate help with incorporating it in an academically appropriate manner:

3182: 2772:; nor is it a collection of statistics without context. I would suggest we remove and stop adding items of local news that mention migrants or refugees. I am thinking of isolated items like: 1142:

Italy and Greece are the most exposed countries to both the economic crisis and the migrant crisis. In addition Pope Francis is an authority of Vatican City. You should add more information.

1021:

by the Economist on the cover of a report about the EU's crises); I would leave Rosling's video (it's a video, not an image) explaining the EU's directives on carrier's responsibility, etc.

3833: 1815: 2871:

As regards context and selection: My Swedish is not that good, but the new source seems to be about tuberculosis in general (in Sweden) and mentions as a matter of fact that cases have

3829: 3420: 1399: 3410: 3253: 2675:". For the other countries, the information seems largely limited to the migration itself and government responses to it, not including the life of the immigrants afterwards. -- 1818:, etc). If that isn't enough, the same claim that Reuters reported in February has been made again by German authorities later that year at different moments, being picked up by 1879:

the other hand, a significant part of the current European migration crisis is the inability to filter out the terrorists; their presence is a significant part of the problem.

1290:

The topic of migrant health could be added to this article in order to provide more information on the standpoint of overall health affairs in correlation to the migrant crisis.

4329: 2808:) which makes the connection between the migration wave and the rise in the cases of TBC in Sweden. The connection is made in the text and the number of cases is available in 1254: 2816:. The second bullet point was hardly local news either, the nazi attack was reported in national media. They were not "some youths", they are part of the nazi organisation 2026:

Is it under international statues legal for people from war-torn countries to flee to any country per international statues even if they already may be in a "safe country"?

1906: 1677:

The crowds include both migrants and refugees from various countries. Their lack of documentation makes establishing their point of origin and their motivation difficult.

3918:

I recommend you made a formal request then, so that it gets onto the "Requested moves" page. For me, part of the point of the renaming is that the so-called "crisis" did

2801: 3628: 3624: 3610: 3518: 3514: 3500: 3490: 3285: 3281: 3267: 2955: 2951: 2937: 1431: 1427: 1413: 1122:

article, we can discuss types of images. What about an image of protestors reacting to New Year's Eve rape in Germany? I don't think it adds anything to the article. --

722: 718: 704: 3596: 2645:

nor balanced. A useful qualitative statement should at the very least mention prevalence (such as "twentieth", a "hundredth" or "thousandth"), a trend and also causes.

844: 651:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160307140022/http://www.balkanews.org/index.php/2016/03/01/europe-migrant-crisis-greece-seeks-emergency-funds-from-eu-to-shelter-refugees/

2923: 4424:

what the source says – you know, "migrant" is not equivalent to "Muslim", right?), and you were giving a lot of information about reactions and statistics about the

1257: 1161:

I'm surprised that there is minimal mention of the numerous terrorist attacks along with chaos and disorder that has been caused by the migrant flow into Europe.

368: 137: 3849:

recognises that it is problematic. Other articles will be affected by this change and I volunteer to clean them up accordingly if this proposed move is accepted.

2449: 2094: 654: 2480:"Festzustellen ist, dass der weit überwiegende Teil der seit Anfang des Jahres 2015 nach Deutschland gekommenen Zuwanderer weiterhin keine Strafta¬ten begeht." 640: 482:

So,is Turkey real have a chance that Turkish nationals could access to Schengen passport-free zone even Turkey does not reach the EU passport-free standard?

2844:

question of whether the incident is "notable" in the sense of being reported by national media but whether it is encyclopedic. The article currently states:

1038:- photos should at least be in the right section e.g. something labeled Greece is misplaced in 'Origins' section, which would do better with something like 848: 3183:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/06/30/with-new-law-germany-tells-social-media-companies-to-erase-hate-or-face-fines-up-to-57-million/

1904: 1493: 1486: 1265:. This should probably be linked to criticisms of the "pull" factor of the welcoming refugee policy in Western Europe, above all in Germany, as seen here: 1253:

I think we need a bit more on deaths and other mistreatment migrants suffer en route to the EU (and even within the EU). There are some good RS out there:

83: 78: 66: 3955:

The article says the crisis started in 2015 because that is what a contributor chose to write. The cited source actually suggests 2014, and even that is

1903:

According to research in the year 2016, 40% of Moroccans who came via Greece pretended to be syrian. Pretending a wrong citizenship was not an exception.

2717:

for the phenonmenon, it makes little sense for enwp to refuse to write about it for reasons of "scope". Or shall we have a new section in this article?

1329: 2488:"It continues to be the case that the overwhelming majority of immigrants that came to Germany since the beginning of 2015 do not commit any offences." 670: 1585: 395:

as there is no confusion to be had with other similar events if a more concise title were used. Despite a move back having already been requested by

380: 2633:

Yes, we could mention the most prevalent & over-represented crimes in a summary in this article. More detail could be given in the main article

525: 1819: 104:

unless we have multiple of these events to describe. For some reason, I already cannot seem to be able to move the page back, but I wholeheartedly

2086: 3421:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160202045306/https://about.hr/news/europe/protest-rally-against-razor-fence-slovenian-croatian-border-crossing-5450

3159: 2332: 2287: 2110: 1909: 1400:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150923031741/http://www.praguepost.com/czech-news/49701-full-text-nato-secretary-general-jens-stoltenberg-in-prague

2290:

and it says nothing about refugees or migrants. It mentions "returning foreign fighters" which refers to European citizens who had joined ISIS.

1908:

In 2015 also many people from Morocco (10.258), Algera (13.883) applied for Asylum in Germany, not regarding those pretending wrong citizenship.

3411:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160202060746/https://about.hr/news/croatia/istrians-protest-against-razor-wire-fence-croatia-slovenia-border-3925

3254:

https://web.archive.org/web/20151020000722/http://www.northjersey.com/news/young-and-alone-europe-sees-record-surge-of-child-refugees-1.1430278

1708: 1704: 1700: 1826:, etc. I'm undoing the removal one more time, since I believe there is due weight for its inclusion. Perhaps more sources should be included? 2036:

Does the migrant crisis include people directly fleeing from war-torn countries directly to European nations. If yes, then is it still legal?

1811: 1746:

The whole article is full of right wing propaganda. i deleted/changed some things like "most are economic migrants" (which is bullshit)...

1353:

The image is accurate for January to June 2015. Considering how dynamic the refugee crisis is, it's likely outdated and should be replaced.

1151: 3868: 3846: 1995:

The article anyway is about those reaching Italy, cannot be applied in the same manner to all routes including Greece and Balkans or Spain.

4453: 4280: 1657: 1596: 1360: 1269: 174:, which is what you are when you single-handedly move a page that officially lacked consensus for a move. Another thing is that there is a 3789:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

1403: 3710: 3438: 3424: 1753: 1545: 1168: 4373:. Should we add this new info or rather completely remove that paragraph since it now basically provides no more value to the article? 3257: 2714: 4205: 3414: 3168: 2442:

a conclusion not stated by the sources. I have a number of concrete concerns regarding the information on Germany, in particular the

2413: 1857: 4313: 3491:

https://www.welt.deregionales/baden-wuerttemberg/article145573021/BWIHK-Praesident-will-Mindestlohn-fuer-Fluechtlinge-aufweichen.html

1606:

The last ip edit to be reverted is from December 26 and it wasn't rampant vandalism in that case either, just a lack of oversight of

3606:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

3597:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170916225451/http://www.interno.gov.it/sites/default/files/cruscotto_giornaliero_14_settembre_2017.pdf

3496:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

3344: 3263:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

2933:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

2390: 1409:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

54: 17: 2924:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160304075359/https://www.bundestag.de/blob/284870/ce0d03414872b427e57fccb703634dcd/basic_law-data.pdf

2132:

is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content. What is the dispute here? —

2091:

The EU admits that extremely few of the immigrants to Europe have been actual refugees, and are rather there for economic reasons:

1225: 1266: 1229: 4258: 2751: 2747: 2634: 2295: 1982: 1646: 4223:

Hi. I am missing this info. The article contains death/disappearance statistics for previous years, but not for 2016 and 2017.

3821: 3802:

the page to the proposed title, and no consensus to move to any other particular title at this time, per the discussion below.

2165: 2095:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/819670/Migrant-crisis-EU-admits-hardly-any-people-arriving-Italy-refugees-deportations/

4213: 1936: 2805: 1930:

According to a new UNHCR statistics report, less than 3% of the immigrants currently arriving in Europe are actual refugees.

1807: 655:

http://www.balkanews.org/index.php/2016/03/01/europe-migrant-crisis-greece-seeks-emergency-funds-from-eu-to-shelter-refugees/

3696: 3600: 1823: 641:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160310200237/http://www.ecre.org/topics/areas-of-work/access-to-europe/7-carrier-sanctions.html

3986:

since after 2015 it has become just one of many ongoing political problems and it no longer has the character of a crisis.

2927: 807:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

4408: 2041:

If there is something illegal, then what it is. What kind of travel is legal or illegal for those from war-torn countries?

1108:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

498: 3444: 2820:

according to the source. It does not serve enwp to trivialise nazi violence by characterising them as some random youths.

2768:

There are, of course, things that Knowledge (XXG) should not write about, such as trivial local news. Knowledge (XXG) is

2226:

Well, this is a rather brief and concise segment. I do not understand why it is supposed to be so difficult to evaluate.

783: 463:

or a point made about this would enhance readers' understanding of the connection between Brexit and the migrant crisis.

399:, I am requesting this as a controversial move because the above section shows that the editor making the original move, 4033: 3671: 3561: 3328: 2998: 2018:

it clear whether the way they arrived is illegal. In such case I had to change the lead until there was clarification.

1712: 1474: 4176: 3780: 2462: 2453: 2291: 1978: 1911:

This article does not mention this, numbers mentioned in the article can be considered as outdated or questionable. -

346: 4378: 4133: 4025: 3983: 3901: 3872: 3754: 3747: 1332: 644: 392: 101: 4137: 4021: 3979: 3834:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_February_8#Category:Crimes_related_to_the_European_migrant_crisis

671:

http://web.archive.org/web/20160129114648/http://www.sydsvenskan.se/sverige/flyktingstrom-bakom-stor-okning-av-mrsa/

2031:

Based on that, this may sound stupid but are they allowed to choose in which country they want to live temporarily?

1544:

As an IP editor, I cannot f***ing believe this article is open to IP editors! The abuses are ongoing, and flagrant.

45: 3141: 851:, which is updated to December 2015, but it's less informative, as it only shows the number of asylum applicants. 4343: 3830:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_June_18#Category:Crimes_related_to_the_European_migrant_crisis

2050: 2000: 1318: 1276: 314: 240: 124: 3728:, and this is just one of many articles where NPOV is being more honoured in the breach than in the observance. 3627:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3517:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3284:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

3177: 2954:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1699:

There have been a few discussions already about the name of the article regarding "refugee" and "migrant". See:

1430:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

721:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

4284: 4145: 2597: 2567: 2537: 2146:

No dispute yet. I just thought that the subject is important, and need help with unbiased outside evaluations.

2087:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/02/italy-calls-european-countries-take-migrant-ships-country-struggles/

1594: 278: 145: 4299:"Mediterranean sea arrivals to Greece and Italy from January 2015 to September 2016, according to UNHCR data" 4186: 3790: 3160:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/islamic-state-changing-terror-tactics-to-maintain-threat-in-europe

2111:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/islamic-state-changing-terror-tactics-to-maintain-threat-in-europe

1661: 1364: 424: 336:

This also cannot be called a "European crisis". European crisis means that "a crisis happening inside Europe".

3714: 1933:

This is extremely important and relevant new information, and should be cited somewhere within this article.

1757: 1172: 1147: 820:. Which ones shall any of them be retained? Removed? Also, which image and/or graph should be in the lead? -- 674: 4209: 3817: 3662: 3588: 3580: 3552: 3462: 3402: 3394: 3319: 3245: 3237: 2989: 2915: 2907: 1853: 1549: 1465: 1391: 1383: 1328:

It probably wouldnt have worked anyway. Refugees originally accepted by the Czech Republic left for Germany

1207: 781:

Consensus reached that some images should be removed, especially those that are not very directly relevant.

632: 624: 603: 580: 571: 342: 4396: 4305: 4276: 4246: 4129: 4073: 3706: 2848:"In August 2016 four workers at asylum centres for refugee children were reported to have been infected by 2394: 2386: 1845: 1749: 1667: 1634: 1356: 1164: 915:

Migrants waiting for their entry to Germany (crowd in the dark -- no significant content, no match to text)

486: 112: 4254: 4041: 3991: 3584: 3398: 3241: 2344: 2137: 1314: 791: 560: 4374: 2340: 1589: 933:

Rescued migrants near Malta (dozen folks in a boat... if the caption didn't say rescued you'd never know)

903:

Migrants along Balkan crossing in Migrant routes (no significant content, match nothing re article text),

4001: 3909: 3888: 3837: 3762: 3646:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

3634: 3536:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

3524: 3375: 3370:

No reason why we can't have both this article focusing on Finland, and the article on Europe as a whole.

3357: 3303:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

3291: 3060: 3040: 3019: 2973:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

2961: 1916: 1831: 1772: 1615: 1575: 1449:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

1437: 1236: 1047: 989: 912:

Migrants arriving in Munich (mislabeled - these are police in a train station, still no help to article)

760: 740:

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

728: 4438: 4412: 4382: 4354: 4317: 4288: 4262: 4232: 4166: 4149: 4120: 4103: 4085: 4064: 4045: 4013: 3995: 3968: 3950: 3931: 3913: 3892: 3858: 3811: 3766: 3737: 3718: 3676: 3587:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 3566: 3401:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 3379: 3361: 3333: 3244:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 3223: 3195: 3120: 3100: 3085: 3064: 3044: 3023: 3003: 2914:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 2893: 2866: 2829: 2795: 2763: 2726: 2708: 2684: 2659: 2503: 2424: 2398: 2369: 2355: 2313: 2299: 2277: 2263: 2235: 2221: 2198: 2184: 2155: 2141: 2123: 2069: 2054: 2004: 1986: 1954: 1920: 1886: 1849: 1835: 1776: 1761: 1740: 1686: 1671: 1650: 1619: 1601: 1568: 1553: 1534: 1513: 1479: 1390:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1368: 1342: 1322: 1299: 1280: 1243: 1211: 1193: 1176: 1131: 1098: 1077: 1051: 1030: 1011: 993: 874: 860: 829: 795: 768: 631:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 607: 592: 564: 540: 519: 502: 472: 457: 436: 416: 350: 322: 282: 270: 248: 195: 171: 149: 128: 3476: 1404:

http://www.praguepost.com/czech-news/49701-full-text-nato-secretary-general-jens-stoltenberg-in-prague

1043: 985: 23: 4333: 4250: 4081: 4004:

but it is too long to include all this material, otherwise I would have proposed incorporating this.

3439:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschlandenminister-warnen-vor-noch-mehr-fluechtlingen-a-1052575.html

3425:

http://about.hr/news/europe/protest-rally-against-razor-fence-slovenian-croatian-border-crossing-5450

3116: 3096: 3081: 2046: 1996: 1883: 1732: 1694: 1642: 1638: 1505: 1272: 1026: 856: 695: 588: 536: 432: 400: 300: 226: 157: 4273:

Cited source 126 doesn't back up the statistics of section: Number of first time asylum applicants

3258:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/young-and-alone-europe-sees-record-surge-of-child-refugees-1.1430278

2060:

I agree that 'legality' is irrelevant to refugees. Economic migrants should be seperated textually.

1018: 960:

Anti-immigration rally in Prague (it's 'anti-refugee', and not much significance or impact to topic)

449: 4434: 4228: 4141: 4055:. It is clearly a crisis, as stated by various sources, whether it's media, NGOs or governments. - 3415:

http://about.hr/news/croatia/istrians-protest-against-razor-wire-fence-croatia-slovenia-border-3925

3353: 3216: 3169:

https://www.thelocal.de/20170721/german-media-failed-to-report-refugee-crisis-honestly-study-claims

2414:

https://www.thelocal.de/20170721/german-media-failed-to-report-refugee-crisis-honestly-study-claims

2217: 2180: 1912: 1868: 1530: 1263: 1127: 1007: 966:

Migrants in Budapest railway station (20ish folks look like camping out on floor near escalator...)

957:'Syrian Refugees Welcome' rally in Vienna (not part of text, not particularly significant to topic) 924:

Hungarian fence in hungary section (seriously, just a photo of chain-link fence does not add value)

870: 825: 453: 396: 364: 274: 179: 141: 136:

Agree with above, what kind of editor takes such an ad-hoc move without discussion? Posted request

2473:

Our article ignores the overall assessment presented at the end of the cited report, which states:

2102: 490: 4099: 4060: 3807: 3484: 3470: 3456: 3432: 2591: 2561: 2531: 2065: 1872: 1682: 1203: 1143: 1073: 599: 3956: 3631:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

3521:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

3288:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

2958:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

2621: 1803: 1720: 1434:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

725:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

4366: 3647: 3537: 3304: 2974: 1450: 741: 4404: 4162: 4116: 4037: 3987: 3946: 3191: 2825: 2722: 2704: 2655: 2420: 2365: 2309: 2273: 2259: 2231: 2194: 2151: 2133: 2119: 1950: 1189: 954:

Refugees strike in front of the Budapest Keleti (not part of text, no particular significance)

787: 556: 515: 494: 468: 2852:

and health services reported a marked increase in tuberculosis infections due to the crisis."

2323: 2099:

Germany admits that most of the immigrants almost completely lack education and work skills:

1607: 388: 372: 299:

Guys, take off your stereotypical glasses and consider it. It's not that bad that you think.

221: 217: 213: 3905: 3884: 3842: 3758: 3692: 3371: 3056: 3036: 3015: 2336: 1827: 1768: 1767:

Going forward with editing, has a decision been made regarding using "migrant" vs "refugee"?

1611: 1338: 1233: 969:

Rescued migrants are brought to southern Italian (nothing in text, not significant to topic)

921:

Syrian refugees arrive by boat from Turkey (no particular significance to this boat or date)

756: 583:

section; it may be expanded, but the wars in Syria, Afghanistan etc. are already mentioned.

3654: 3544: 3311: 2981: 2769: 2327: 2169: 2129: 1937:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4442910/Less-3-migrants-reached-Italy-refugees.html

1457: 748: 209: 175: 4370: 4077: 3112: 3092: 3077: 2889: 2862: 2791: 2759: 2680: 2499: 1880: 1725: 1498: 1295: 1035: 1022: 999: 852: 584: 532: 428: 4330:

Draft:Initiatives to counter migrant smuggling on the Central Mediterranean Sea 2013-2018

3601:

http://www.interno.gov.it/sites/default/files/cruscotto_giornaliero_14_settembre_2017.pdf

3156:

Europol reports that the Islamic State is radicalising Muslim immigrants into jihadists:

2435: 2107:

Europol reports that the Islamic State is radicalising Muslim immigrants into jihadists:

1039: 963:

Pro-immigration rally in Prague ('pro-refugee', still not significant or impact to topic)

2928:

https://www.bundestag.de/blob/284870/ce0d03414872b427e57fccb703634dcd/basic_law-data.pdf

2494:

The BKA report also has information about the immigrants broken down by age and sex. --

945:

Royal Navy ship HMS Enterprise (is part of text, but seeing stock photo seems removable)

942:

Concert "Voices for Refugees" (not related to article text and not significant to topic)

4430: 4224: 3613:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3503:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3270:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3211: 2940:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 2210: 2173: 2083:

10000 immigrants arrive in Italy every week, and mostly want to go to northern Europe:

1564: 1526: 1416:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1123: 1086: 1003: 866: 821: 707:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 3653:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

3620: 3543:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

3510: 3445:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150814130015/https://www.amnesty.at/de/traiskirchen-pa2/

3310:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

3277: 2980:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

2947: 1941: 1456:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

1423: 892:

Hans Rosling in front of a podium at Carriers Responsibility (no significant content),

747:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

714: 4447: 4095: 4056: 4009: 3964: 3927: 3854: 3803: 3733: 2061: 1678: 1069: 412: 191: 138:

Knowledge (XXG):Requested_moves/Technical_requests#Uncontroversial_technical_requests

120: 1580:

It's really not as bad as some other articles on my watchlist. In any case, anyone (

4400: 4158: 4112: 3942: 3187: 2849: 2821: 2718: 2700: 2651: 2416: 2361: 2305: 2269: 2255: 2227: 2190: 2147: 2115: 1946: 1185: 555:

stated that if wanted the migrant crisis to stop, we should end the war in Syria.

511: 464: 3055:

The third and fourth paragraph in the introduction are missing citations/sources.

2812:. Ergo, a nationwide falling trend in TBC cases reverted by immigration is hardly 2622:

this one from OECD which state graphs may be used directly with source attribution

948:

The European Parliament (is part of text, but seeing stock photo seems removable)

930:

Migrants arrived in Lampedusa (another crows of 20ish standing on some plain dock)

645:

http://www.ecre.org/topics/areas-of-work/access-to-europe/7-carrier-sanctions.html

1715:. See there for some of the reasons why the article currently is called European 3825: 3725: 3688: 2737:, as you put it. But that does not mean that Knowledge (XXG) should write about 1610:(if you don't count the recent good faith edit reverted for lack of consensus). 1334: 1260: 53:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2775:

4 workers at an asylum centre apparently contracted TB from an infected refugee

2438:"includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach 4185:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

3619:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 3509:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 3448: 3276:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 3201: 2946:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 2885: 2858: 2787: 2755: 2676: 2615: 2495: 1962: 1422:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1291: 713:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 574:

section, but someone removed it arguing that it's not directly related to the

266: 3178:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-23/germany-full-censorship-now-official

927:

Migrants in Hungary walking to Austria (back view of about 60 people walking)

909:

Marking of a minefield in Croatia section (picture of sign, not adding much)

1560: 216:, I considered this to be a best title and moved the page to this title per 3836:). Although the creation of a separate article in addition to the existing 2781:

one municipality created gender-segregated housing for unaccompanied minors

972:

Japanese-born Czech politician, Tomio Okamura (not very important to topic)

843:

was chosen because it's a featured picture on Commons and en.wiki, whereas

570:

Info about the number of refugees resettled to the USA was included in the

2456:

Attempted and committed sexual offences by immigrants in Germany 2012-2016

675:

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/sverige/flyktingstrom-bakom-stor-okning-av-mrsa/

4128:

I disagree that "crisis" is "non-neutral". The "European migrant crisis"

4005: 3960: 3923: 3850: 3729: 3463:

http://www.regeringen.serattsdokument/proposition/2015/12/prop.-20151667/

939:

Border crossing between Russia and Norway (another picture of a sign ...)

408: 258: 203: 187: 116: 2304:

Okay. I would appreciate if you could check through the others as well.

384: 97: 900:(just a crowd, no significant content, match nothing in article text), 889:

a boat at Lesbos (no particular significance to the header or overall),

403:, is being somewhat combative about defending it, even to the point of 1788:

and a small number of hostile agents including Islamic State militants

383:

on any move. The new name was assigned without consensus and the word

1798:

claimed it was a rumor, though the source does not say that, and the

1656:

This is a wiki encyclopedia. Not a SJW politically correct soap box.

262: 170:, on Knowledge (XXG), you can in fact be bold, but you should not be 100:, nevermind the fact that adding "(2015-present)" is unnecessary per 2857:

readers with the Swedish victims) and therefore not encyclopedic. --

2378:

Did William Rees Mogg predict the European migration crisis in 1993?

951:

The Knot, a monument (not part of text, doesn't help understanding)

4200:

It appears this section once did have refs, but they vanished with

3477:

http://www.pes.eu/eu_response_to_direrefugee_crisis_urgently_needed

906:

Wien Westbahnhof railway station in Austria section (same issue ...

2448: 2162:

Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment/Politics, government, and law

918:

Protesters gather outside Cologne Cathedral (crowd with flags ...)

3350:

Migrant routes, development and responses in individual countries

2673:

Migrant routes, development and responses in individual countries

936:

The Melilla border fence (another picture of chain-link fencing)

3144:

by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

2778:

some asylum seekers were attacked by some youths with fireworks

2103:

https://amp.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f

3841:

frankly, is an invitation to edit in a non-NPOV manner). Even

3129: 1926:

A new statistics report from the United Nations Refugee Agency

391:. Additionally, the "(2015–present)" label is unnecessary per 32: 2583:

Kriminalität im Kontext von Zuwanderung - Bundeslagebild 2016

2553:

Kriminalität im Kontext von Zuwanderung - Bundeslagebild 2016

2523:

Kriminalität im Kontext von Zuwanderung - Bundeslagebild 2016

4367:

http://www.message-online.com/vom-politik-zum-presseskandal/

3883:

to describe a new, mass migrant movement that began in 2015.

865:

I crossed that part out to make the rationale more neutral.

680:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

3875:, a name supported by the article and by the COMMON use of 182:

reverted you and I voiced my disagreement here, you should

3591: