2044:. And it's a pretty solid line that's hard to go wrong with. Various countries/nations can have multiple folk styles, the older traditional ones, or newer contemporary folk ones. While traditional music is way more vague as a concept. And is in line with your football analogy. Classical and religious music can also be called traditional music because both follow established musical traditions. And the content of this article will have a problem with that logic. But in my opinion, labeling the article as folk only makes it more obvious that the content of the article would be consistent with folk music definitions.
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partially about the genre term rather than just some fundamental realities that exist independent of the words. In my absence, someone split it which was also fine, particularly since the article had become very large. My advice leans weakly towards keeping them combined with the current or similar title. If you do split or significantly re-retitle, keep in mind that "traditional music" and "folk music" are not quite the same thing. For example, "traditional" can include orchestral and classical. Sincerely,
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1917:. And the situation is just the same in all Eastern European countries. In some countries of Central Europe, the main term for traditional folk music is "popular music", somewhere it is called folkloric, somewhere ethnic, somewhere it is an untranslatable word play, etc. However, on wikipedia, we ignore regional naming conventions and adhere to the "(nation) folk music" scheme throughout, as such articles are intended to be a coverage of a regional subspecies of
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711:, we should use the "most common name of a person or thing" when naming articles. Unfortunately the name of this article isn't ideal. In short, the VAST majority of people in Ireland (locals and visitors) would never refer to "folk music" in this way. It's always "Traditional music", "Trad music" or some variant. (Not "folk music"). Can we move/rename this article to
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Catholics. However, in a balanced article it should be possible to produce something that covers this important aspect of traditional music on the island without being partisan or offensive. I will try to put something together when I can find time, but I am flagging this up for comment from editors since it may be contentious.--
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It should be clarified that on
Knowledge (XXG) we have an established scheme on naming traditional and folk music articles. The articles with the name "... traditional music" refer to music that combine classical and folk music, where it is close-to-impossible separate them. This mostly fair to East
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We can't just take a major-word-with-a-vague-common-meaning and have it go really nowhere in
Knowledge (XXG) because the commonly-accepted one meaning is technically two. My approach was one big Folk Music article somewhat split into two halves. Articles about genres are inevitably defined by and
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has 4 paragraphs under "Revivals of traditional Irish music", which just describes contemporary folk scene. There's no such thing as "contemporary traditional music". Irish folk music = Irish traditional music + Irish contemporary folk scene. Such scheme looks way more fitting than placing it under
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should be used. I don't know if this is the right approach regarding wiki guidelines or if we should start splitting articles into overviews and genre-specific ones (like you are trying to position this article now). But such a systematic approach where a scope of articles are built to be overviews
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from the "U.S." players paragraph to the "modern" players paragraph, as his page lists him as being born in Dublin. I don't see any reference to his being particularly represntative of a regional style - if you have a reliable source that indicates he is, then we should probably move him there. I
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OK. There is definitely a value in having the "traditional Irish music" content separated from the more general "Irish music" (which might include "Irish pop music", "Irish classical music", etc). However, the name of this article (though equivalent to the corresponding
English article) is possibly
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In the last paragraph of the introduction, we read, "By the 1970s Irish traditional music was again influencing music in the USA and further afield in
Australia and Europe." Since Ireland is in Europe, Europe is not "further afield" than the USA. I suggest a rephrasing to, "...music in the USA as
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We've had the exact same situation, issues and questions regarding folk music in general. Although I don't know if Irish had the prominent transitional event/link analogous to the US Folk
Revival. They are two different but related genres which have the same name, and, importantly, which casual
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This article inorporates almost all of the material rating to Irish folk music, that used to be present in "Music of
Ireland". The idea is to create the equivalent of the article "Folk music of England" and to allow the "Music of Ireland" a new chance to be return to the status of "good article".
1192:) and some of this information should be added to the article. It's all very well to talk about the origins and cultural context of the music, but you could read the entire article without any the wiser as to what it actually sounds like or how you would recognize it as being particularly Irish.
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The audio samples by "Dancing Willow" have absolutely nothing to do with traditional irish folk music. They are not representative, I guess that the band wanted to use
Knowledge (XXG) for self-promotion. I removed them. They should be replaced with real samples like the Harmonica tune. There are
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From an
American point of view the line between folk and tradtional is probably more blury because I don't see a large devide here, first of all lots of good work on the article, secondly, it would probably be good to add info about ballad and song as well if the similarly titled english article
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I have no strong feelings either way. The problem lies with those singer-songwriters who call themselves "folk singers". Where do they belong? They are not traditional, so they don't belong here. There are not very popular, so they can hardly justify going into pop or rock. Should "Folk music of
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This article is designed to deal with music in the whole of the island, but does not have anything specific on music north of the border. There are obvious reasons why this is the case, as the flutes and drums of Orange Bands have been seen as instruments of oppression by some northern Irish
1839:. Scenes of contemporary folk music should not be assumed to be the main focus of the articles with the "(region/country) folk music" title but such scenes may be mentioned in a separate paragraph within the article as part of folk revival if necessary, see
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on
1872:'s summary, in the 2017 RM discussion, was correct. And remains correct. And the outcome of that RM was and remains the correct one. The groups (several statutory) involved in preserving Irish traditional music all refer to it as just that. For example
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Therefore Irish, Danish, Gaelic, Kosovo, "Galicia, Cantabria and
Asturias" should also be renamed to folk (articles themselves refer to folk literally everywhere, without describing anything about the art music), but this is getting ahead of time
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Printed Irish folk music dates from the 18th century. Harps existed in
Ireland in the 10th century, probably earlier. The music was played, it just wasn't printed. Ensemble playing probably wasn't common until the late nineteenth century.
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You seem to want not only to rename the article but also to change its content/focus to match the new name? Maybe instead accept that the current content matches the current title and neither is broken. Instead you might make
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This suggests yet more reorganisation to me. I would suggest breaking article into Folk/Ballads and Trad (instruemental) alongside other forms, like Sean Nos, Portaireacht and so on. We could also take a leaf out of
1847:. I think it's important to stick to this scheme, at least until someone decides to rename all the articles to "... traditional folk music", which would finally make it unnecessary to clarify the state of things :)
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Decided by logical sense. When you are describing general concept, you will also describe its subspecies. Any traditional folk music is still traditional folk music per listed characteristics and definitions here:
1973:— intended by whom? who decides what is a "single specific concept" as opposed to a "subspecies" of some larger concept? What if it's a subspecies of two concepts with differing naming conventions? Should we move
1843:. Otherwise, contemporary folk scene articles should be named in a different way, due to the prevalence of traditional folk articles with, once again, consistent naming scheme. See also similar case of renaming:
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Why is there so much stuff about dance? It only clutters up this article. The title is "Folk MUSIC of Ireland". I suggest removing all but a couple of short paragraphs on dance. Put them into their own
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Nowhere in the page is there any discussion of scales, modes, or other characteristics of the music that distinguish it from other kinds of folk music or common practice. Many summaries are available (eg
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for all articles instead of doing them one at a time. It would attract more contributors and avoid rehashing the same arguments multiple times (or indeed using inconsistent arguments in different cases).
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I need help !! i read that instruments are used in irish folk since the 18th century, but hat the bodhrán ist used since 1600. what's right now? please give me right information, i really need them.
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also removed "the Master himself", since that description seems like a matter of personal opinion (not that I'm disagreeing with you, but it deviates from Knowledge (XXG)'s intended neutral tone).
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I would suggest that if the new section "Festivals" is to be part of this article, it should be done properly, and not simply mention an obscure German festival simply for advertizing purposes.
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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But that's just my original logic, which as you correctly point out does not coincide with the wiki guidelines you listed. So I think it can be left as it is until the further article rework.
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Irish traditional music, in my opinion. But this is just a matter of reworking the article. These paragraphs should probably be in the new article called "Irish folk music" just like you said.
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is not a literal translation of the local name, but rather the name most used in reliable English-language references. Since Ireland is largely anglophone, the relevant guideline is
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There are several Irish dance main articles that contain all the purely dance information currently in this article. Any opinion on removing this redundant non-music information?
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I will rewrite it when I get a chance. Keening and popular laments are very different song forms and have totally different functions. The current section is way off the mark.
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The improvements are good in early 2008.. but don't go far enough. There is tons more info available, and this and associated articles are set to grow a lot... take a look here
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and other types of song. This article is about "traditional music", which is a single form of instrumental music, mostly as an accompaniment for dancing. Note that
818:... page is better structured For one, we need to transfer some of the Folk (eg Table with top rock groups in the Folk article e.g. into some other article...).
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are Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, and Consistency; changing from the current to the proposed title improves Consistency but loses the other three.
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concept is certainly way more convenient for both the editor and the reader. And I don't see this article as an exception to the rule (unlike, for example,
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Yes you know your stuff but this is meant to be an article highlighting the major players. It's not a laundry list of everybody you have heard of or like.
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The problem is that in Russian the name "Russian folk music" is not used, in fact it is called "people's music" there, while "folk" is always means
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is what determines the titles of individual articles. And, in Ireland, the common term is "traditional Irish music" or "Irish traditional music".
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has a heavy emphasis on song. So either the article needs to be expanded to include other forms of folk music, or it needs to be renamed.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Asian, Indian, some Middle Eastern and Turkish-Mongolian genres. There is no such music in Europe as there is a clear division between
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1646:. There is of course a lot of overlap, but such overlap can be covered just as well under the title "Irish traditional music".--
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people outside Ireland probably call (b) "Irish folk music" rather than "Irish traditional music" or "traditional Irish music"
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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I dont think "Irish traditional music" can include classical, its a pretty well-defined genre within the Irish folk scene.
528:, an attempt at building a resource on the music of all the peoples and places of the world. Please visit the project's
2037:"intended by whom? who decides what is a "single specific concept" as opposed to a "subspecies" of some larger concept?"
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2004:, and add some info at the latter anchor about whatever you think is "missing" from the Irish traditional music article
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Might one argue that Trad is a subcategory of folk? And if so might we solve the problem by treating them as such?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The harmonica sound file posted adds nothing to the article. I suggest the audio samples section be removed. --
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Andy Ross Conroy (1911 - 1999). Poorly represented (if at all) on recordings so should not be mentioned here.
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This is very inaccurate and obviously doesn't cite any references as it's very confused and conflated.
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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under
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Sean Maguire. Fair enough, but you linked into the wrong person's article.
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such articles are intended to be a coverage of a regional subspecies of
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genre-specific ones (like you are trying to position this article now)
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Hmm, tricky. The most thorough strategy would be to divide it into
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User at 72.37.171.20, if you're reading... I moved your addition of
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and as the new title has long been one of the akas in the premise
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Knowledge (XXG) article constitutes fair use. In addition to the
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addresses it. (also add the roots template to these articles) --
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For non-anglophone countries, the appropriate article name per
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page for ideas on how to structure a genre article and help us
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and so the word that they would search by for both of them.
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quite a few available in the Archive.org audio archives. --
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Nevertheless I think it is worth considering whether per
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Music/Music genres task force
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articles on Knowledge (XXG). Please visit the task force
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Regional and national music
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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High-importance Regional and national music articles
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on wikipedia, we ignore regional naming conventions
1642:and the like as played by Irish musicians, such as
1476:and its subcategories – is this supposed to be the
1425:the article ought to be renamed. Possible renames:
1341:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1864:. I'm all for consistency in article titles. But
734:England" be renamed "Traditional English music"?
686:Organisation of content of this and related pages
811:http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S13901.htm
549:Template:WikiProject Regional and national music
2048:"accept that the current content matches title"
2033:I mostly agree with you. Except of few things:
1410:This article seems to be about (b). Of course
1414:there is plenty of overlap between (a) and (b)
1244:This message was posted before February 2018.
1693:well as in Australia and mainland Europe." --
1472:. Also, something would need to be done with
1402:(b) "traditional music" is the kind of thing
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1207:External links modified
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423:WikiProject Roots music
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43:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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1246:After February 2018
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653:good article status
299:and the modern day
109:WikiProject Ireland
1845:Russian folk music
1797:The Aafī on Mobile
1375:unresolved in 2008
1300:InternetArchiveBot
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927:Joey Flynn - minor
878:fair use rationale
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1770:& with
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1339:move review
1170:Dereksmootz
1134:—Preceding
1006:—Preceding
965:—Preceding
941:Randal Bays
641:music genre
538:push to 1.0
532:to see the
445:Roots music
384:Roots music
212:Irish music
203:Irish music
175:Irish music
2117:Categories
2097:jnestorius
2026:jnestorius
1965:folk music
1928:folk music
1919:folk music
1901:Guliolopez
1870:jnestorius
1648:Cúchullain
1560:jnestorius
1556:folk music
1550:; article
1470:WP:NATURAL
1453:jnestorius
1443:jnestorius
1423:MOS:ENGVAR
1389:folk music
1307:Report bug
1165:Sean Keane
717:Guliolopez
645:guidelines
309:discussion
1899:works...
1792:permalink
1736:not moved
1594:North8000
1290:this tool
1283:this tool
1140:Seamasmac
311:. Please
2062:Solidest
1957:MOS:TIES
1936:Solidest
1849:Solidest
1776:Solidest
1744:Dekimasu
1348:move to
1296:Cheers.—
1148:contribs
1136:unsigned
1051:Hohenloh
1037:Hohenloh
1035:article.
1020:contribs
1012:Hohenloh
1008:unsigned
967:unsigned
867:fair use
851:fair use
786:contribs
761:Scolaire
2087:out of
2014:though.
1816:Amakuru
1630:Support
1618:snunɐɯ·
1614:·maunus
1575:snunɐɯ·
1571:·maunus
1220:my edit
1108:SabreBD
753:ballads
570:on the
530:listing
472:on the
359:on the
239:on the
150:on the
123:Ireland
114:Ireland
70:Ireland
41:C-class
2081:Oppose
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1740:WP:CFD
1546:is in
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326:Assess
323:, and
320:Create
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428:roots
332:Celts
297:Celts
264:Celts
2066:talk
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464:High
434:and
432:folk
314:Join
142:High
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