1639:, sorry but you won't tell me what to do regarding my involvement in either the English or Spanish Wikipedias, so keep it to yourself. The Spanish and English Google Books are identical in content, I don't know what are you talking about when pointing out the difference between them, which is just the web dominion that is different (.com.pe). Google tracks my location and assigns that dominion automatically, so that issue is completely discarded. And going back to the topic, the primary sources she refers to specifies the English name of the Fort, which bears no accent as English does not use diacritics natively, while in Spanish this is a must and it is specified in the sources I provided. It seems that you're mistaken because I haven't questioned the stance of the English name having no accent, but the Spanish one. --
1657:, that you can control which language version of Google Books you cite. As I said, you didn't give a page number in your edit summary, if you had, then you could have pointed to the Spanish version of her chapter. Since this is English WP, I used the English text of her chapter, and that is what I responded to. How many times do I have to say it? You say you "haven't questioned the stance of the English name having no accent, but the Spanish one", yet you are still ignoring my point that the primary Spanish sources researched by Deagan and Landers don't use the acute accent in
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con el remitente para informarle de este hecho y no difunda su contenido ni haga copias. Los datos personales que aparecen en esta comunicación, así como los que nuestra empresa conserva de usted y de su empresa, se tratan con la finalidad de mantener el contacto, así como de realizar las gestiones que en esta aparecen (Ley Orgánica 15/1999, de 13 de diciembre, de
Protección de Datos de Carácter Personal). Puede ejercer sus derechos de acceso, rectificación, cancelación y oposición dirigiéndose a proteccion_de_datos@rae.es.
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de Olano in 1740. It shows the location of Fort Mose, part of the town's defensive network. The text was transcribed and translated by
Charles A. Tingley of the St. Augustine Historical Society Research Library, who referred me to documents I've used. Claire Barnewolt and Chad Germany, librarians at the Historical Society Research Library, also provided assistance. The original of the Olano 1740 map in the Archivo General de Indias, accessed through the
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name in its
Spanish name, not the English one (as shown in the article's history, this is the one I only modified' because of Spanish orthography regarding phonetics, in which a tilde must be added if a word in the Spanish language has stress on the last syllable if it ends with a vowel (which is the case with Mosé) or if it ends with the letters 'n' or 's'. The irony of this is that Carlstak implied this was unsourced, while there's literally a
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1527:, p. 15, note 40: "The name is a composite of an existing Indian place name, Mose, the phrase that indicated the new town was established by the king, Gracia Real, and the name of the town's patron saint, Teresa of Avilés, who was the patron saint of Spain." Mose is not a Spanish word, and as such is not subject to Spanish grammar.
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Thanks, Alarob, but you're late to the party and we already stopped a day and half ago. I think you're reading too much into this minor contretemps. We had a disagreement that got a little heated, and we've both moved on. I'm contacting Jane
Landers, the acknowledged historical authority on Fort Mose
2015:
I've added information about the history of Mose and the historical research and archaeological work done by the Fort Mose
Research Team, with scholarly sources. I've also added an image of the Plano del Sitio de la Florida, a map of St. Augustine, Florida, drawn by Spanish royal engineer Pedro Ruiz
1945:"None of the actual documents had any accents over Mose...it's always just been in Spanish Mose...although you'll see on English maps Mossy and other variations. The full name was Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose. (By the Royal Grace...and Santa Teresa was the patron saint of the Spanish military)
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has two parts, one
Spanish, and one English. Kathleen Deagan's chapter was not translated into Spanish by her, she wrote the chapter in English, which is what I naturally referred to. The Spanish translation was done by the book's editors, Ann L. Henderson, Gary R. Mormino, and Carlos J. Cano, who
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The fact that 'Mosé' was originally an Native
American word is of no relevance, as with other languages, the Spanish adapted the name to their orthography and turned it into a proper name. This can also be seen in other cities and forts in all Latin America, with Fort Mosé being no exception on its
1483:
First off, the acute accent's name in
Spanish is 'tilde', while the tilde in that language is called a 'virgulilla'. Carlstak may seem to ignore Spanish grammar rules, which may disqualify him from even challenging Spanish orthography. The name 'Fuerte Mosé' in Spanish language has a 'tilde' on its
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in the article with the assertion that "The
Spanish name includes a tilde by language conventions". This person may be a native Spanish speaker, but he doesn't even know the difference between the acute accent (é) and the tilde (ñ), which in itself should disqualify him from lecturing other editors
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AVISO LEGAL: El contenido de este mensaje de correo electrónico, incluidos los ficheros adjuntos, es confidencial y está protegido por el artículo 18.3 de la
Constitución española, que garantiza el secreto de las comunicaciones. Si usted recibe este mensaje por error, por favor, póngase en contacto
1362:
Lamentamos comunicarle que no hemos podido documentar esta denominación (ya sea con la forma de fuerte Mosé/Mose o Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mosé/Mose) en nuestros bancos de datos, ni en diccionarios enciclopédicos del siglo XIX, ni en la hemeroteca de la Biblioteca Nacional. Únicamente hemos
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because, as I've pointed out in edit summaries, the original documents show that the Spanish authorities did not use an acute accent in the spelling of "Mose" in official communications. Not only is he changing the spelling of the name incorrectly, he's also removing the citations of sources that
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Nombre y apellidos: Daniel Eisenberg Nivel de estudios: Superiores Profesión: Profesor (filólogo) jubilado Correo electrónico: danielbeisenberg@gmail.com Repetir correo electrónico: danielbeisenberg@gmail.com Dirección de contacto: (removed) País de origen: Estados Unidos Consulta: En la Florida
1613:, your English is sub-par, so perhaps you should stick to Spanish WP. We don't link to sources on Spanish (Peruvian) Google Books for English Knowledge, we use English Google Books, and you did not give a page number when you cited the book in your edit summary. Surely you noticed that the
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as correct in Spanish, enough to make me reconsider my position. (I started the "Mose or Mosé?" discussion above and argued for "Mose".) But you haven't made a case for changing the spelling in the article, which should reflect the consensus in English usage, not try to change it.
1291:"Cabe imaginar la irritación de las colonias vecinas y de las autoridades inglesas ante esta sangría, que trataron de cortar atacando incluso el fuerte Mose, pero entonces los esclavos se refugiaban en el interior de las inexpugnables murallas del fuerte de San Agustín."
1372:«In 1738, the Spanish governor of Florida, Manuel de Montiano, had Fort Mosé (pronounced "Moh-SAY", rhymes with "José") built and established as a free black settlement, the first to be legally sanctioned in what would become the territory of the United States. (
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I'm not going to revert the spelling in the article just yet. I want to find a primary Spanish source on microfiche at the St. Augustine Historical Society Library, and a secondary source that explicitly mentions the spelling, if I can find one.
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I think the Spanish WP article is incorrect. After all, Knowledge itself is not considered a reliable source for WP articles, and if anything, Spanish WP is even less reliable than English WP. Most Spanish academic sources spell the name
1720:, your zeal to point out perceived errors in Bankster's contributions seems to have taken priority over everything else, including reading for comprehension rather than for the detection of weaknesses. You are both cordially invited to
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1316:"El fuerte Mose no pudo resistir y fue capturado; mientras, todos los habitantes del poblado huyeron encontrando refugio en el Castillo de San Marcos, amontonándose junto al resto de la población de San Agustín."
1321:"...me interesa dejar constancia de dos fenómenos ocurridos durante la época española floridana, porque los estimo significativos y precursores: uno se refiere a la existencia del fuerte Mose y a la función..."
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fue la primera comunidad negra libre en la América del Norte, sirviendo de escenario para un extraordinario capítulo en la historia de la Florida y de los Estados Unidos. Gran parte de lo que se sabe de
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Si quiere disponer de un servicio prioritario u obtener respuestas instantáneas y automáticas a sus consultas, suscríbase a Enclave RAE, la nueva plataforma profesional de servicios lingüísticos:
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We've always wondered where the name came from. It might have been an indigenous place name because there was an indigenous village at the site of the first Mose...that was ruined by an epidemic.
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Dado que no tenemos referencia acerca de su origen, únicamente podemos indicarle que, en caso de que la pronunciación sea aguda, deberá escribirse con tilde: fuerte Mosé.
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are not authorities on Fort Mose, as Deagan is. You are mistaken, because as I've already pointed out, the primary sources she refers to don't use the acute accent for
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is doggedly edit warring to change the spelling of the official Spanish name of Fort Mose. As I said in my last edit summary, Jane Landers writes in
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86:, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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appears to be more common. Here, too, we may not have a consensus. One area to explore is whether usage within Florida itself and among Spanish
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El motivo de la consulta es el de imponer una ortografía uniforme en Knowledge, donde se encuentran, dedordenadamente, las dos formas. Gracias.
1231:. The name is pronounced like "MO-say." With an accented E, the stress would fall on the accented syllable: "mo-SAY". (Compare the name José.)
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I've also got microfiche images of communications by Governor Montiano that mention Mose, which I will add to the article when I get a chance.
1306:"Cuando España cedió en 1763 la Florida a los británicos, los cimarrones del fuerte Mose fueron trasladados a Cuba, entonces colonia española."
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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It's probably not insignificant that the National Park Service omits the accent mark from the name Fort Mose Historic State Park.
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even bothers to read the link to the book I just embedded in the talk (which he certainly didn't), Kathleen Deagan's chapter on
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y sus habitantes (incluyendo mucho de lo que aquí se trata) proviene de los estudios hechos por la historiadora Jane Landers.
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podido localizarla en textos del siglo XX en Internet, si bien hemos restringido la búsqueda a libros y textos académicos.
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española hubo una Fuerte que en unos textos modernos se imprime como Fuerte Mosé, y en otros Mose. ¿Cuál es correcto?
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The proper spelling of "Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose" has no acute accent (é), and the given sources prove it.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090121013259/http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceID=2214&resourceType=Site
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090121013259/http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceID=2214&resourceType=Site
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a Spanish rendering of a Native American name. It is not Spanish in origin. We have no other source for the Native
1259:]. There is also a redirect on the Spanish Knowledge from Fort Mose to Fort Mosé. Please undo what you have done.
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304:. If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the
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I think the article needs a discussion of how the name should be pronounced — not an arbitrary accent. —
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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1296:"En junio Montiano atacó el fuerte Mose, tomado por los ingleses, dejando 68 muertos y 34 prisioneros."
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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Fortin de tunas y tepes que ocupaban los Negros fugitivos de la Carolina Nombrado Mose....
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Jane Landers has graciously replied to my query regarding the question of whether or not
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on what proper Spanish orthography is. What he calls "language conventions" is unsourced
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En este sentido se inclinaría la propia versión en inglés de la Knowledge cuando señala:
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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In Spanish you would pronounce it stressing the o if there were no accent over the e.
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Gracia Real de Santa Teresa de Mose: A Free Black Town in Spanish Colonial Florida
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The correct spelling of the Spanish name does not have any accents. It is spelled
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That's what the article is about. The State Park is by comparison unimportant.
1764:. I heard both of them speak recently at Fort Mose, and they both pronounce it
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Spanish name only, not the English one. It is subject to Spanish grammar. --
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Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
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http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=2214&ResourceType=Site
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http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=2214&ResourceType=Site
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Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
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B-Class National Register of Historic Places articles of High-importance
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Spanish Pathways in Florida, 1492-1992: Caminos Españoles en La Florida
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Spanish Pathways in Florida, 1492-1992: Caminos españoles en la Florida
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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Aunque no es un nombre muy conocido en la historia de la Florida, el
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Let me try to summarize the debate about whether to spell the name
1768:, as our own article says, and which seems to support my position.
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Fort Mose: Earliest Free African-American Town in the United States
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law has gotta be better than that corporate, Big AG law. Sorry.:-)
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WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
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may be more common, but we may not have a consensus on that.
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uses the accented name in its translated Spanish version:
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https://enclave.rae.es/herramientas/consultas-linguisticas
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Knowledge:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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is used except when quoting Spanish sources that use the
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Template:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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Departamento de «Español al día» Real Academia Española
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The correct Spanish spelling is Mosé, not Mose. Look at
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There is also an African ethnolinguistic group Mossi."
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Fort_Mose_Historic_State_Park
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B-Class National Register of Historic Places articles
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Stop insulting each other. Stop assuming bad faith.
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This article has been checked against the following
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Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment
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North American military history task force articles
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implies normal stress on the penultimate syllable (
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1107:Article reassessed and graded as start class. --
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1893:Now, talk amongst yourselves, and keep it civil
1468:demonstrate this fact. This violates WP policy.
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1411:I'm also going to post this on the Spanish WP.
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2018:Portal de Archivos Españoles (PARES)
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1350:I made a query about this to the
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1878:In English academic writing,
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954:Knowledge:WikiProject Museums
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1827:) then an acute accent (or
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2004:) 19:14, 20 June 2019 (UTC
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1379:Reciba un cordial saludo.
1341:16:33, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
1282:; here are some examples:
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1126:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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1358:Estimado Sr. Eisenberg:
1444:01:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
1122:External links modified
858:Historic sites articles
728:Associated task forces:
673:Coverage and accuracy:
497:WikiProject Ghost towns
1428:Real Academia Española
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102:Ethnic groups articles
28:This article is rated
1810:(or possibly African)
1454:An editor from Peru,
1426:Well, I defer to the
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1653:You should realize,
1465:WP:Original Research
1792:with or without an
937:WikiProject Museums
695:Grammar and style:
648:for B-class status:
520:Ghost town articles
301:WikiProject Florida
234:discuss these tasks
140:Here are some open
1920:Please see above,
1763:
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1661:. Do you get it?
1202:InternetArchiveBot
1089:on the course page
782:
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602:list of open tasks
217:Start an article:
34:content assessment
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148:Meta-tasks:
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40:WikiProjects
1575:Fuerte Mosé
1382:__________
1280:Fuerte Mose
684:Structure:
511:Ghost towns
502:Ghost towns
474:Ghost towns
2066:Categories
1842:are used.
1209:Report bug
1085:6 May 2022
151:Place the
1895:por favor
1886:spelling.
1192:this tool
1185:this tool
1109:dashiellx
161:template
2050:deisenbe
2026:Carlstak
1998:Carlstak
1926:Carlstak
1865:criollos
1806:probably
1770:Carlstak
1718:Carlstak
1709:Bankster
1681:Carlstak
1663:Carlstak
1655:Bankster
1641:Bankster
1637:Carlstak
1624:Carlstak
1611:Bankster
1586:Bankster
1565:Carlstak
1563:If user
1541:Bankster
1519:Bankster
1501:Bankster
1470:Carlstak
1456:Bankster
1436:Carlstak
1413:deisenbe
1333:Carlstak
1261:deisenbe
1198:Cheers.—
1093:Tsamp815
645:criteria
1766:MOH-say
1432:organic
1135:my edit
951:Museums
942:museums
901:Museums
876:on the
538:on the
449:on the
340:on the
313:Florida
262:Florida
144:tasks:
30:B-class
1922:Alarob
1910:ALAROB
1737:ALAROB
1494:ABC.es
1490:Outono
1247:ALAROB
1227:, not
36:scale.
1906:alias
1901:ob C.
1897:. --
1829:tilde
1812:name.
1733:alias
1728:ob C.
1724:. --
1517:User
1243:alias
1238:ob C.
2054:talk
2030:talk
2002:talk
1940:Mose
1930:talk
1884:Mosé
1880:Mose
1860:Mosé
1856:Mosé
1854:and
1852:Mose
1844:Mose
1840:Mosé
1838:and
1836:Mose
1817:Mose
1790:Mose
1774:talk
1762:then
1713:Mosé
1685:talk
1667:talk
1659:Mose
1645:talk
1628:talk
1620:Mose
1590:talk
1580:Mosé
1545:talk
1505:talk
1474:talk
1440:talk
1417:talk
1337:talk
1265:talk
1229:Mosé
1225:Mose
1113:talk
1083:and
868:High
530:High
441:High
204:Iyer
1825:-se
1821:mo-
1800:.
1376:).
1159:to
1149:to
1099:).
1052:???
970:???
332:Low
307:FAQ
232:or
112:???
2068::
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566::
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159:}}
153:{{
2052:(
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978:.
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608:.
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453:.
344:.
310:.
120:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
