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core, sides, and cutting edge to take maximum advantage of high and low carbon steel. The edge was high carbon steel, hard but brittle, and capable of taking and retaining a razors edge. The core was a softer but more durable low carbon steel to stand up to the stress of tremendous impacts. The sides and back fell somewhere in between. All three types were forge welded together to create a weapon of unsurpassed complexity and deadliness. The technology was by no means limited to weapons of war either. Items such as woodworking tools were frequently laminated from hard and soft steel to create chisels and handplane blades that were far ahead of their contemporaries in the west. I know most of these developments took place at a later date - 900AD to 1500AD and that there is a
Japanese Sword section already, I just thought it might be worth a mention, or at least a cross link to another article.
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1557:-- Africa is a big place. Sub-Saharan Africa is an appropriate unit to deal with. The Near East and Middle East have only weak linkages with it, because there is a vast desert between. The question is what happened, not how we would like to classify it. When this article was created By merging several others, I asked an expert to check (and amend) the article. The editor who actually did so is a professor at the Institute of Archaeology.
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and skill of the champions who wielded these iron weapons would also add to the majesty associated with them. And from that start, human storytelling began weaving tall tales, as it tends to do. I need only point out the legends of Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan for the kinds of over-the-top fiction mankind can come up with using a kernel of truth. --Sunder the Gold
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Clarification: The article claims "smelting of iron in bloomeries began in the 12th century BC," yet mention is made of a dagger of smelted iron dating to 2500 BC. It's implied that the dagger is of smelted, non-meteoritic, iron, and what I've read elsewhere seems to bear this out... does anyone have
1299:
in 1556 has a lot of information on the identification of ore sources prior to modern prospecting techniques such as the us of vegetation associated with certain ores, soil types, color, and smell amongst others. While the book may not refer to "ancient" techniques per say, I highly recommend reading
1134:
Having looked, I still do not think it is exactly a history book. It is dealing with technical issues on the metallography of iron and steel artefacts. I think that most of the historical and archaeological information is derivative. Buchwald looks a valuable book, but deals with the period that I
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Some one has added a series of reference to Europe from
Needham. I am likely to remove or amend these shortly. Needham's work was primarily on China, not Europe, and it is now 40 years old. It thus does not take account of more recent discoveries. We know rather more of ancient metallurgy than we
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There probably is such an alloy, and at a guess it would be one of the high temperature nickel alloys. Yet even these (Inconel is 70% nickel and more chrome than iron) are usually termed nickel alloys, even though they contain a high iron content. They're obscure alloys though and my point remains –
1908:
The article is intneded to be mainly about the production of iron and steel, rather than about the fabrication of artefacts, which is probably best left for a more specific article. We have a terminological issue in splitting out steel. Why should we have bar iron (0%C) and pig iron (4-5%C) in one
758:
Mythic weapons such as Lugh's spear and Nuada's
Claiomh Solais might have been made of meteoric iron. Various accounts claim that the Tuatha De Danaan had knowledge of occult magics that allowed them to create these mighty weapons -- access to meteoric iron and the know-how to forge it into weaponry
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Most of the magical abilities of these mythic weapons might have their explainations in the superior luster of iron to stone or bronze, the superior strength of meteoric iron to bronze, and the overall divine air that a weapon made from a fallen star would have. "A gift from the gods." The strength
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You know, maybe it would've helped if you had explained your reasoning rather than just reverting again and again. If the external link is only relevant to a specific section and would not be accepted at the end, then it doesn't belong in the article. We could just as well copy in all the external
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I think the article should start off with a statement of what ferrous metallurgy is, rather than immediately jumping into history. The sensible decision was made not to move it to "History of ferrous metallurgy" since a statement of what ferrous metallurgy is needs to be made before talking about
1674:
IMHO, the present title is rather cumbersome, and I realized that the subject of the article is perhaps essentially the
English word "ironmaking" (with some elements of steelmaking thrown in for context), with an emphasis on the overall history. The article is functionally analogous to a similarly
1577:
Why are is there no mention of
Japanese metallurgy in this article when their tradecraft was extremely advanced and their understanding of the varying carbon contents of steel was virtually unsurpassed? The production of a traditional Katana blade, for example uses multiple types of steel for the
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I feared as much, but did not delete it when I pruned the section in March, because it was at least faintly related to iron, whereas what I deleted was about
Islamic technology generally. Some of it may be Muslim acheivements, but other portions may be derived from the Roman world but lost to the
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Some one (unlogged-in) added the view that there was no difference in principle between a bloomery and a blast furance (except size), togeterh with unhelful comparisons with modern steelmaking. I believe that the contributir was trying to be helpful, but failed to be. I have accordingly reverted
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on the article page and a request without a template on the talk page Reason given "IMHO, the present title is rather cumbersome, and I realized that the subject of the article is perhaps essentially the
English word "ironmaking" (with some elements of steelmaking thrown in for context), with an
1703:
I agree that the title is cumbersome. However, it is intended to be an overview article, covering all aspects of iron and steel: bar iron (~0% C), steel (0.5-2% C) and pig iron (4-5% C). This should lead the reader on to more detailed articels on particular aspects. I think I established its
1159:
I was wondering if there is any information regarding the methods used by the ancients, and even those in the middle ages, to identify a particular rock as being iron ore. I didn't see anything in this article about it. What methods were used? Do historians even know what they did to identify a
2034:
I don't get it. You want this to be a spinoff of an article that doesn't exist? It doesn't matter how much pruning occurs; we'll always have the article in its current state in the history. Show me a bunch of "History of Foo" articles without a corresponding "Foo" and my mind could be changed.
2433:, etc. and have an EL subsection for every section. This is why I don't approve of throwing a commons link in the middle of the article. I have absolutely no problem ignoring the MOS or any other rule that would get in the way of improving the encyclopedia, but that isn't the issue here. —
1525:
Lets have a holistic view of iron working in Africa as a whole.I think we should merge Iron working in North eastern Africa with the rest of Africa instead of taking it to Near East.We can for instance have it shown by regions e.g East Africa,West Africa,South Africa and North Africa.
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During the ] and ], ], ] and ] were making significant advances in metallurgy. Muslim engineers invented the first ]s. By the 11th century, every province throughout the
Islamic world had these industrial mills in operation, from ] and ] to the Middle East and ].<ref name=Lucas-10:
1203:
and that iron carburizing was known process in the Middle East at about 1200BC (this could be a byproduct discovery of iron production process). I guess that they just identified minerals rich with iron ore by sight. But I will look for additional information on the web to answer
774:
If this section is referring to the Old
Assyrian trading network most famous from the finds at Kanesh, can we properly call these people Hittites? They were the ancestors to the Hittites, yes, but I'm not sure the name is justified in that use. Any ideas as to a better term?
1892:
There is no mention of case-hardened steel, an early method. Also the article could benefit from the separation of iron production - wrought and cast - from that of steel. Incidentally, Anglo-Saxon knives have been excavated with surgical-steel like properties.
1504:
So what? The Quran is a religious text for
Muslims, written 14 centuries ago. It cannot contain useful historical information on earlier eras. This may contrast with the Hebrew Bible where it is dealing with historical events in its historical books.
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article and steel (0.5-2%C) in another: it does not make sense. I created this article some years ago, trying to sort out a muddle that previously existed, to provide a general overview of the subject, with sub-articles on particualrly topics.
2015:
The worst case would be for this article to stay under the new title, then to be pruned progressively to be simply the current understanding of metallurgy, and we lose the historical aspect that's already written. That would be a sizable loss.
2084:; it's not the usual RM but I think Andy Dingley's argument is persuasive. The current content is primarily about the history; moving it to an appropriate title will serve readers better, and make room to build a much-needed general article.
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would be a sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic to other cultures and the common man. In fact, wasn't Damascus steel thought to be magically derived, since it was unparalleled for strength and sharpness in its time?
1478:, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will)."
1778:
Nono, the article on ironmongery is a far more specific term, and blacksmithin is shaping iron that has already been refined. This article is about the history of refining iron ore into iron (and steel), not what is done with the
2065:(as that's what it was written as), but it's a poorly structured article if read as a summary of present metallurgy, and it would be a shame to damage that good historical article in the efforts to turn it into something else.
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if you see arabic text "anzalna" means "we sent down. Human doesnt know this truth 1400 years ago. and about this verse because of that point there was many questions from unbelievers past time. But now it is very Clear.
971:, p.65. Both cover much the same material and refer to a variety of industries, but not to iron or steel. Accordingly the material is cited from a false reference. This leads me to think that the statements are wrong.
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Adam Robert Lucas (2005), "Industrial Milling in the Ancient and Medieval Worlds: A Survey of the Evidence for an Industrial Revolution in Medieval Europe", ''Technology and Culture'' '''46''' (1), p. 1-30 .</ref:
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So far you have demonstrated that you think everyone must observe MOS slavishly, yet 3RR is optional. You are also prioritising a simplistic interpretation of MOS over readability. Neither of these are constructive.
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were invented by Muslim engineers for many ] uses, such as ] before extraction. In order to adapt ]s for gristmilling purposes, ]s were used for raising and releasing ]s to fall on a material.<ref name=Hill2:
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1850:."Ironmaking" is far too narrow. If we did rename to ironmaking, I'd expect that to be rapidly followed up by one of the pointier-haired deletomins blanking any coverage of Bessemer, as "it wasn't ironmaking".
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redirects here, why is it not the simpler title of the same?)- as history is a usual component for most pages, why is in the article title, rather than a section or focus. I propose moving the page then to
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section, not necessarily External links, as this is for CSS box float reasons, not for content placement. MOS is also quite clear that such a section should not be created to hold such a link in its own
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I was always curious why men would attribute supernatural properties to the weapons of certain heroes. A little studying here on Knowledge has allowed me to come up with a satisfying hypothesis.
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The simplest way would be "look for rust". Seriously, iron ore readily oxidizes to form iron oxide (rust), so there will be the characteristic reddish color of rust wherever you have iron ore.
1829:, but the lead may need to be changed to make it clear that this is a primarily a historical article, preferably with a link to an article concerned with metalurgy as a scientifiic subject.
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1679:, of which some of the material might be better suited in focus, rather than include the whole of both iron and steelmaking, without an appropriate umbrella page. (Alternatively, though
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would certainly he an option, but would that not lead to the article being swamped by recent stuff? On the other hand, perhaps we need more on recent developments anyway. The move to
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its history, but I don't see that this has been done. My guess is it ceases to be a question ferrous metallurgy when the iron component of an alloy drops below some threshhold?
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You are correct about 'from'. However the interpretation of Ur of the Chaldeans is essentially an issue of Biblical interpreation and should not be relevant to this article.
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50% iron, or only a small proportion of iron. I can think of no equivalent to brass or solder and the comparable proportions of zinc/copper or tin/lead found in those alloys.
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was removed, since it does not pertain specifically to iron metallurgy or repeats what had already been said. Perhaps it can be used in some otehr article. All the best, --
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That sounds reasonable. I was curious but noticed the relevant articles lacking in any indication of how iron ore was identified before modern geological techniques. Thanks.
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I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
1625:. By cutting the words "History of" the title becomes less cumbersome, addressing one of the nominators points, but "Ironmaking" as an option did not gather support.
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Donald Routledge Hill, "Mechanical Engineering in the Medieval Near East", ''Scientific American'', May 1991, p. 64-69. (] Donald Routledge Hill, )</ref: -->
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The point is less about what we have now and more about where we want to end up. The topic is major enough that we have a strong need for both
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A lot of material has been added about milling in general, bit this has little or nothing to do with metallurgy, let alone ferrous metallurgy.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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This is getting ridiculous, let's discuss. Why exactly do we need commons links in the middle of an article, in direct contradiction to
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Second paragraph, end of paragraph: I do not think it could be properly said that any particular place was where iron was "invented".
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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does not sound like a specialist book on history. I suspect that any historical sections will be derived from better sources.
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Thats a good question, but I've no good answer. All I can tell is that iron made tools from 2000BC were found in what was once
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from these: the additions are too simplistic. If they should be added at all, the correct place is probably in the article
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In quran Surah (chapter) 57 name is Hadid means Iron. Verse 25 has very interesting for this topic. English traslation is
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Those are ferrous alloys. Iron is the majority in all of them. I can think offhand of no alloys that aren't either : -->
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content on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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Call it 50%. "Ferrous alloys" have far more than this. Alloys with less, where iron still has any significance (see
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Whoever added material on milling in the medieval Islamic world has been trying to exaggerate their contribution:
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article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Whatever the largest % portion. If it's 40% iron, 30% copper and 30% nickel, it would still be a ferrous alloy.
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is heading that way, yet it would essentially require coverage across both iron and steel. Still we also need a
1457:. The tempering of steel was brought in ancient India to a perfection unknown in Europe till our own times;...
817:'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for
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do this at the end of at article, which no-one disagrees with. However in this case, a section-specific link
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when iron is used in an alloy it's either the majority, or a very small component, not something in-between.
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A lot of this type of stuff gets "cut and pasted" all over Knowledge getting more garbled with each move.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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would involve overwriting the redirect, which requires the involvemetn of an admin, via a nomination at
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https://web.archive.org/web/20071225091836/http://home.swipnet.se/islam/articles/HistoryofSciences.htm
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present structure, but then had to ask an expert to deal with the prehistoric aspects. Renaming to
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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Some of the material apparently on metallurgy was cited from Lucas, 'Industrial Milling',
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or the likes, and if need be, spinning of elements, or splitting as need be. Thoughts?
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1016:] (1996), "Engineering", p. 781, in {{Harv|Rashed|Morelon|1996|pp=751-95}}</ref: -->
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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My writing skills are not very good. But I have a couple of good sources to recomend.
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And at least one such mythic weapon, Mjollnir, WAS said to have been "a fallen star."
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to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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Vagn Fabritius Buchwald Published by Kgl. Danske Videnskabernes Selskab, 2005
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were far ahead of Europe in industrial chemistry; they were masters of
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it for information on pre-industrial ore prospecting methods. --
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Also please note that MOS states that the links belong in the
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Fourth paragraph, also end of paragraph: Abram and Lot came
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The following query was a comment in the discussion page of
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http://home.swipnet.se/islam/articles/HistoryofSciences.htm
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article, as ferrous metallurgy didn't emerge fully formed.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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saying external links belong in their own section? —
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I just used a hypothetical example. You can see that
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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2506:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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This section is not supported by the sources cited.
2169:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1072:, 9783540209638. Its got a great history section.
2634:B-Class China-related articles of High-importance
1807:; or this could be a subarticle the way it is to
2386:. This is clearer for readers. It doesn't even
2492:This message was posted before February 2018.
1811:, should we add modern information to it. --
1621:The result of the move request was: moved to
116:History of Science Collaboration of the Month
8:
1734:Can ironmaking be one word or is it two? --
1135:am most intersted in only in the epilogue.
807:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting
2579:High-importance history of science articles
1225:. Seems like it should include an answer.--
1063:The microstructure of steels and cast irons
2462:I have just modified one external link on
2176:How much iron makes it ferrous metallurgy?
1595:Proposed move to "Ironmaking" or otherwise
529:
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1659:emphasis on the overall history. ..." --
101:, an attempt to improve and organize the
1160:certain rock as being iron ore? Thanks.
1116:Its not that bad see it at google books
125:Knowledge:WikiProject History of Science
2584:WikiProject History of Science articles
1321:any idea how this dagger was produced?
1065:Madeleine Durand-Charre Springer, 2004
652:] The anchor (History of steelmaking)
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1992:This article's content is about the
1954:The result of the move request was:
1374:" when India was looked to, even by
561:This article is within the scope of
472:This article is within the scope of
367:This article is within the scope of
296:This article is within the scope of
194:This article is within the scope of
2574:B-Class history of science articles
2000:is a huge topic and we require (to
751:Meteoric Iron and Legendary Weapons
38:It is of interest to the following
1521:Merge Ferrous metallurgy in Africa
1340:The following part of a quote from
214:Knowledge:WikiProject Metalworking
14:
2614:Low-importance Chemistry articles
2466:. Please take a moment to review
2372:Objects made from meteoritic iron
1650:– Request made 27 August 2012 by
1155:Identifying iron ore in antiquity
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770:Hittite trade in Meteoric Iron?
601:This article has been rated as
512:This article has been rated as
407:This article has been rated as
387:Knowledge:WikiProject Chemistry
319:Template:WikiProject Technology
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145:This article has been rated as
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2619:WikiProject Chemistry articles
1919:14:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
1903:18:34, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
1860:15:11, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
1839:14:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
1821:20:32, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
1789:20:36, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
1774:20:32, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
1756:Isn't it traditionally called
947:03:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
884:Muslim Agricultural Revolution
390:Template:WikiProject Chemistry
113:. You can also help with the
98:History of Science WikiProject
1:
2589:B-Class Metalworking articles
2560:04:16, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
2358:history of ferrous metallurgy
2297:16:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
2279:15:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
2260:15:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
2242:12:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
2228:12:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
2214:23:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
2191:19:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
2122:history of ferrous metallurgy
2116:history of ferrous metallurgy
2059:History of ferrous metallurgy
1983:History of ferrous metallurgy
1927:History of ferrous metallurgy
1848:history of ferrous metallurgy
1744:17:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
1669:17:21, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
1642:History of ferrous metallurgy
1498:13:14, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
1402:... By the sixth century the
1284:15:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
1253:02:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
1235:17:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
1214:17:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
815:History of ferrous metallurgy
800:History of ferrous metallurgy
793:21:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
720:16:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
695:00:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
575:and see a list of open tasks.
486:and see a list of open tasks.
381:and see a list of open tasks.
310:and see a list of open tasks.
208:and see a list of open tasks.
2447:10:44, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
2412:10:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
2362:to one narrow aspect of this
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2148:13:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
1971:13:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
1361:07:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
1331:20:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
1183:15:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
1015:The first ]ed ]s<ref: -->
95:This article is part of the
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2094:13:36, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
2075:09:29, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
2045:04:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
2026:20:00, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
1989:Restore to previous title.
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1635:18:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
1567:19:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
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1336:Material for other articles
1188:Responses here copied from
581:Knowledge:WikiProject Craft
492:Knowledge:WikiProject China
131:history of science articles
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2609:B-Class Chemistry articles
2523:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2459:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
2360:at Wikimedia Commons, but
1310:23:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
1000:15:02, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
779:Bloomery and blast furnace
584:Template:WikiProject Craft
518:project's importance scale
495:Template:WikiProject China
413:project's importance scale
240:project's importance scale
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2384:belongs with that section
1590:04:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
1347:The Story of Civilization
1145:22:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
1130:20:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
1112:21:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
1098:I know neither work, but
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1942:Please do not modify it.
1874:Please do not modify it.
1609:Please do not modify it.
1573:What about the Japanese?
1349:I: Our Oriental Heritage
1316:Origins of iron smelting
825:Reference named "Hill2":
805:I check pages listed in
197:WikiProject Metalworking
2455:External links modified
2374:at Wikimedia Commons.
2340:This is not a link for
1996:of ferrous metallurgy.
965:Technoloigy and Culture
894:, May 1991, pp. 64–9. (
868:, May 1991, p. 64-69. (
842:, May 1991, pp. 64-69 (
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914:Donald Routledge Hill
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1353:Jorge Stolfi
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174:Metalworking
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107:project page
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40:WikiProjects
2421:links from
2285:Ferrocerium
2167:move review
1947:move review
1879:move review
1758:ironmongery
1677:steelmaking
1614:move review
1582:AutumnWoods
1484:—Preceding
1416:sublimation
1342:Will Durant
1295:written by
1201:Mesopotamia
832:Trip hammer
2568:Categories
2555:Report bug
2388:contradict
2376:In general
2289:MartinezMD
2252:MartinezMD
2220:MartinezMD
2010:historical
1960:CĂşchullain
1958:to move.
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1647:Ironmaking
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1380:industries
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1081:8773043087
1070:3540209638
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111:discussion
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2531:this tool
2380:generally
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2086:bobrayner
1627:DrKiernan
1451:compounds
1440:soporific
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910:Al-Jazari
858:Watermill
384:Chemistry
375:chemistry
347:Chemistry
2544:Cheers.—
2431:Iron Age
2427:Smelting
2398:section.
1895:Urselius
1543:contribs
1531:unsigned
1486:unsigned
1444:metallic
1430:without
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1420:steaming
1302:Lboscher
1272:Seeker 4
1171:Seeker 4
980:pig iron
786:bloomery
717:Darentig
2468:my edit
2437:Reatlas
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2063:history
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1057:sources
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2443:(talk)
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1400:cement
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