Talk:First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana)

2821:, but it must be done properly. Ballenger was convicted of molesting 1 girl, not 3 or 4. The other girls that testified that they were molested did so during a hearing and not a trial as Arbustoo wrote. Also, it is important to note Hyles opinion of the case against Ballenger -- mainly that he always believed he was wrongly convicted. Arbustoo's original edits here made it look like Hyles not only knew that Ballenger was molesting children, but that he supported the molestations as a matter of doctrine. We must surely include the information about the Ballenger trial, but you cannot distort the truth by making it seem worse than it really is. Ballenger was convicted of molesting 1 girl, not 4. The other girls that testified did so during a sentencing hearing, not at a trial before Ballenger's peers. And Hyles' viewpoint about the case is highly relevant and should be included, since the entire point of Arbustoo's edits is to make it seem like Hyles spoke indifferently about molestation, when nothing is further from the truth. Arbustoo is sacrificing the truth in his nearly single-handed mission to defame Hyles. 3242:-- FYI, even though it is irrelevant whether Arbustoo has heard of such a thing or not. There exists a history of many thousands of years of churches banning disabled people, because the bible specifically says in Leviticus 21:17-23: "Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries." Now I believe that most Christian churches teach that the book of 666:

feeling that the page has been hijacked by those with a grudge against this man. Also, you are in effect trying to get readers to come to a conclusion that Hyles is guilty of all these charges, simply because someone accused him and those accusations were published in the press. Yes, I'd say a lot of people who supported Jack Hyles have a problem with your efforts to discredit him and his ministry and a lot of people dispute the facts as you present them here, hence, the disputed tag. Try writing your controvery sections in a NPV, adjust the sheer amount of data downward to reflect a more reasoned presentation when compared to the other data here (or increase the other data here to compensate for the large amount of controvery data, and don't try to lead readers into false conclusions based upon such juvanile reasoning as "the press quoted the accusations, therefore it must be true". --Teeja 01:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

3277:

such distateful events, how does an editor compare the whole of the thing to the distateful action and write an article about the whole darned thing? In this article we have (about) 10 people who have engaged in or had forced on them or were associated in some manner with distateful actions, actions somehow associated with the First Babtist Church. Ok, (about) 10 people. But even it is (about) 100 people, I would say, compare that quantity of persons with the quantity of persons who are enjoying and actively engaged in, successfully enganged in the group's activities. What is that, maybe 10,000? Then look at this ratio, 10/10,000 (or whatever ratio works out to be). And let the article reflect that ratio, you know? 10,000 lines about what the church generally does and 10 lines about the distasteful actions associated with the church. The ratio, not the absolute numbers, you see?

3093:

You can't say "Ballenger molested 4 girls", but you can say, "Ballenger was convicted of molesting 1 girl and later, 3 other girls testified during his sentencing hearing that they were also abused by him in the past." And in each of the cases you mention you must also present the full story including Hyles' opinion of the matter. It is highly relevant to this story that Hyles believed that Ballenger was innocent of the crimes and that he was wrongly convicted. That information must be in the article too. Otherwise you are mistakenly leaving the impression that Hyles knew that Ballenger was molesting children and let him continue doing so because he approved of such behaviour. This is clearly a false impression, but it is the exact impression that Arbustoo leaves when he discusses the issue.

3206:. First of all, what was cited was that a blind man alleged that he was banned from the church -- there is no evidence that he was actually banned -- nor is there any indication about why he was banned. First Baptist Church of Hammond has a special mission devoted to helping and caring for the blind, deaf, and handicapped. It is absurd to suggest that they have a policy to ban blind people when there is only one person that has ever made that claim (over 20 years ago). The claim was not ever verified by any other sources and it wasn't repeated by any other sources. It is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article about FBCH to include every last mention of the church that has ever appeared in any newspaper article. This is not what encyclopedias do. 853:

against this church and it's ministries, simply because it's fundamentalist Christian beliefs don't fit into your world view. All anyone needs to do is check out Arbustoo's editing history to confirm that. Of course, he'll reply with a lot of arm waving himself, I'm sure. Arbustoo posts a bunch of unverified, unsourced, or poorly-sourced data against the church and college and gets a few of his editor and admin buddies to back him up, who now say that it's somehow the church supporters who must constantly be on guard against his 24/7 misinformation spree and if they don't spend hours and hours and hours correcting Arbustoo's junk, (which only gets reinstated anyway), they deserve what they get. That sir, is not fair. --

2163:

consistently made better through the application of guidelines and policies. You have demonstrated that when left to yourself, you would have the Hyles article be 80% criticism of Hyles or more based on the comments of a couple of malcontents, when the man ran a 50 year ministry and he was loved by tens of thousands of followers. I am willing to leave in edits describing the "controversy" around Hyles, but they must be in proportion to the amount of credibility that they deserve. Since not a single professional researcher or journalist has ever accused Hyles of any misdeeds, let alone any crimes, it is inappropriate for an article about Hyles to be entirely consumed with these tabloid claims.

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reputation. Of more weight is the word of Robert Sumner, a man with whom I have had direct, though brief, communication. I have never attended Pastor Sumner's church, or sat under his preaching, but I have corresponded with him via mail and a Web forum. From what I know of him, he is an honest man, but I simply don't know either him or Hyles well enough to decide who is more reputable. The article mentions court cases brought against Hyles, but it does not state the deposition of those cases. As far as I know, no one was able to convince a jury that Jack Hyles was responsible for all these things of which he is accused.

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hearing. The girls claims were only used by the judge to decide on the sentence that Ballenger should get. He did not rule on the truthfullness of the girl's statements. And indeed, if the judge truly believed that Ballenger was a serial molester that had molested 4 or more girls, it seems unconscionable that he would have sentenced Ballenger to only 4 years, don't you think? Also, if the other 3 girls molestation claims had merit, why wasn't Ballenger charged with molestating them? Wouldn't an additional 3 convictions put him away for even longer?

1300:

especially if you MENTION the individual ministries on the wiki. How can you not see that? The fact is that it's a link to an OFFICIAL church web site, which is not only allowable on Knowledge (XXG), it should be almost standard that if you're going to mention a church ministry on a wiki, and that ministry has an OFFICIAL web site, you should include a link to that OFFICIAL web site in the interest of providing information to the readers. It adds no more text - just a link to those who want to check out the OFFICIAL web site. --

3305:, not argue the points of the debate and the controversial actions, but to frame the debate from an outside point of view. The principle of proportional representation in this article would be not so much to give 10,000 lines of glowing praise and 10 lines of condemnation, but to give an appropriately representative section of explanation or the church's ideas, and a similarly-representative section of criticism, with regards to the critics and advocates, as opposed to the members and criticized members. -- 119: 92: 809:

nothing can be done to stop him from using the Jack Hyles, First Baptist Church and Hyles-Anderson College and related wikis as a forum for his grievances. I'm done editing this wiki. It's all yours. In the long run, reasonable readers will see right through this kind of one-sided article, anyway. Nice try at keeping the "community spirit" and "cooperative efforts" of Knowledge (XXG). That's nothing but a joke, it seems, at least on these entries. Good luck and happy editing. --

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Sunday School students? A newspaper editor called Hyles directly and accused him of cruelty to animals. Pastor Hyles replied that he had done even worse. The editor asked what he had done. Hyles replied, "I ate their mother!" Something similar happened when the Sunday School gave away guppies (small fish) to the Sunday School students. The newspaper was up in arms about the little fishes flopping around in the dwindling puddles in the parking lot.

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controversies regard the career of Jack Hyles, it is odd that little else is said about a church that is more than 100 years old. It is all the more odd, considering that I never heard of any of these allegations until 1988. All those years that I heard of Jack Hyles, and heard his detractors, but no one brought these kind of charges into the public until then. They sound so out of character for him.

234: 61: 1991:. Clearly, this user either didn't really believe not having the station's name was important or has failed to pay attention to what is being added. If its the former, this action demonstrates a user trying to white wash DOCUMENTED criticism or if it's the latter it demonstrates a user with a strong POV who cares little for the quality content. Vivaldi's merge vote is in bad faith either way. 311: 3211:

that claim in an encyclopedia article about the church. This blind guy is not a notable person. His unproven claim was not repeated by any other person. No other source has ever mentioned in the last 50 years that FCBH has a practice of discrimination against the blind. This tiny blurb in a newspaper 20 years ago is not worthy to be included in an encyclopedia article.

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repudiation of Schaap's teachings. If you have PROOF that they have repudiated ANY of Schaap's teachings, please provide a link here to the official church websites statement that would indicate such a claim. Short of that, you have no evidence to back up your fake assertions, and your repeated attempts to blank out the "Teachings" section will be rejected. --

3156:

blind people in general are not welcome at FBCH, nor is it clear why the church banned him. There are dozens of good reasons why a blind man (or a one-legged deaf-mute or whatever else) might appropriately be banned from church. This particular claim does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article unless further verification or explanation is provided.

2120:

time affair with Nischik's wife and Hyles' was doing financial misdeeds, as reported in newspapers and several years later Nischik's book. 3) Robert Sumner a former Hyles follower made allegetions published in newspapers. If you choose to believe or not believe these people I DON'T CARE. They are documented are part of the Hyles history and go in the article.

1483:

able to see that I clearly documented your bias against Jack Hyles. It's there for anyone who wants to check it out. I encourage readers to go to your talk page and see your wholesale deletions that were made by you (16:45, 22 July 2006). (More proof that you're abusing your Admin authority to bury the truth). Yeah, you sure are unbiased, there, buddy.--

2655:"The third victim, a 20-year-old woman from the Columbia Center public housing project in Hammond, told how she would ride a bus Sunday mornings to the First Baptist Sunday school, and that A.V. Ballenger was her driver. She described the church as "a good church" she enjoyed attending, and said she liked Ballenger. But she said there were several times 4566:) Maybe you should consider creating a First Baptist Controversy page because there is much more to First Baptist Church of Hammond than controversy and scandal, which used to make up a fifth of the page! I also gave you evidence that the statements were wrong, and if you change it back, your wrong because your knowingly lying to people! 1876:-- And anything that is implied or insinuated should automatically be inserted into an encyclopedia article? Encyclopedias don't operate on innuendo. The church has a specific mission dedicated to serving the needs of blind people. This is ridiculous to include this sort of unfounded claim in an article about the church. 1082:). I would suggest that Arbusto's edits display a good grip of policy, and who cares if he has decided to fight whitewashing of Southern Fundamentalist articles? Is that beter or worse than Talk edits saying that Dick Mountjoy has a funny name? You will find that several admins are watching these articles fairly closely. 1521:. Your edit contains claims that are not in the article you listed as a reference. Also I was not aware that the Disablities Act allows people with disablities (including their assistance animals) access to everywhere able-bodied people can go with the exception of the Hammond church. A reference on such a claim is needed. 724:

somehow responsible for Mr. Combs' actions. That's very poor logic and does nothing but try to lead readers into a false conclusion. All these things together add up to a GREAT dispute of the facts as you have presented them here. The "Dispute" tag will remain; this is a dispute of the facts, not just a NPV concern. --

4501:

section, but tried to make things true (positive!). As long as there are lies,the churches testimony will be ruined. Please consider removing the controversy section altogether as that is what it is. Controversy based on unreliable proof and no evidence should not be found in an encyclopedia. 03:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)~

3712:, like most church directory companies, takes photos of all church members and their families for the directory in hopes of selling them photo packages, etc. Descriptive filler pages suppled by the church are added to the directory. So in effect what you have is an self-promotional brochure put out by the church. 2641:"Another state witness was a former security officer at the church, who testified he saw Ballenger fondle a young girl in 1978 or 1979 in a Sunday school room after being called to the room by a female teacher. He said he confronted Ballenger, who was in a "trancelike state" with his hand under the girl's dress." 3036:

allegetions 2) the 1993 molestation at the church 3) the 1993 news report linking the North Sharon molestation to Hyles and FBCH 4) the 1997 rape lawsuit 5) the 2000 Comb's conviction 6) the blind man being banned. Those are all different cases documented in the press, which deserve a place in the article.

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material. ("Teaching a semi-pelagian version of salvation," "puts forth the belief that "God cannot and He will not personally come to anyone and try to reconcile with him." What in the world does "puts forth the belief" mean anyway. It's just a fancy way of saying "I think he believes," which is opinion.

4221:

It's likely that I'll soon unprotect the page. A "flood" of sourced information about this church and its activities will go a long way towards NPoVing and settling this content. A section about the legal worries/scandals is helpful, even needed, but only if it's carried in a much more widely written

3092:

I agree that the molestation convictions should be mentioned in this article. There is substantial independent evidence that shows that Ballenger molested at least one female and possibly 3 or more. In all the cases it is important that you present the information truthfully and in a neutral tone.

2119:

That's your personal bias on who is "reputable" and what you mean by "source." 1) Voyle Glover an attorney who worked for a prosecutors office was quoted by newsappears and appeared on TV interviews with his allegations. 2) Victor Nischik who worked for Hyles as an accountant claimed Hyles had a long

2000:

You were advised to assume good faith by another admin. Please do so. 8 out 10 people said that we should get rid of this article. That seems like a clear consensus to me, but I am willing to let all the interested parties discuss the issue here. Perhaps you think that you and one other guy makes

1907:

I just came back to this page after a few month's absence, and glanced again at the Seeing Eye Dog story. Do you know how stupid that paragraph looks? Twenty-two years ago, a blind man got upset that the church would not let him have his dog in the church with him. Would any airline allow a guide dog

1482:

Oh, I see. Links that present Jack Hyles in a positive light are spam; links that bash Jack Hyles are "well-documented sources". Ok. Got it. At least I know what your definition of "spam" is now. Also, I see you deleted the entire FBC editing discussion on your talk page, JzG, so no one would be

1299:

Explain to me why linking to First Baptist Church OFFICIAL ministry web sites, on the First Baptist Church Wiki is not appropriate? Any reasonable person can see that if I'm writing an article about an organization, a link to that organization's OFFICIAL web site(s) should be included in the article,

1057:

Secondly, you reverted the section I had on ministries. It shows that you are bent on making this nothing but an attack page. Your large sections obout people with weak allegations have stayed but that isn't enough for you. If you you won't let others add non-negative information, then there is no

959:

Yes, there is a lot of controversy surrounding Jack Hyles, but all this encyclopedic article has done is repeat a lot of rumors and reports; there is very little fact-finding. For example, I am told that the controversy over the seeing-eye dog was instigated by the dog relieving himself in the church

660:

The "Disputed" tag should remain because Arbustoo has added an enourmous amount of negative data to this wiki, and other wikis relating to Jack Hyles, Hyles-Anderson College and First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana and other editors are disputing it, including me. The explaination for adding the

4135:

As a helpful note coming from an uninvolved admin, I would like to say that if the article carried a description of the church's big campus (and perhaps some history on its development), which sounds like it's as notable as a small town on Sundays, everything would tend to become much more balanced.

4080:

Read the article. Nowhere does it say the building seats 20,000. Nowhere does it say the church puts 20,000 people in one building. It clearly states it has 22,000 active members, not tourists. When it said it had 14,000+ in attendance, it does not state in one service. It states that attendance for

3795:

In 95% of all the information on this page, it is obvious that there is a strong bias AGAINST First Baptist Church. Oh btw, before accusing me of copy & pasting, check out the First Baptist Church website and tell me if any of that information was on there -- it isn't. So don't make false claims

3473:

Just want to explain that I made a couple of mass deletions without realizing that the article was on probation, and then immediately reverted them myself when I saw. Let me note that this article is currently 60% spurious advertising, and 30% libel that ought to be immediately removed according to

1955:

eight out of ten editors that commented on the article suggested that it be merged with this articule or deleted outright. Preying from the Pulpit is not notable enough to warrant its own article. The person who created the article cannot even tell us what channel, date, or time this show appeared

1329:

link to the OFFICIAL website of the subject if it has one - which it does, and we link it, both as the OFFICIAL website and as a source. The ministries are linked from the OFFICIAL website and that's fine. We do not need multiple links to the OFFICIAL websites of every OFFICIAL sub-ministry of the

4485:

helpful, sourced content about the church and its churchly activities, along with any descriptions and history of its campus, as discussed above. I would strongly suggest staying away from the criticism section altogether for the moment, at least until I've had time to look into it more and perhaps

4163:

I appreciate it. It is true that this church does good -- actually, it does a significant amount of good. It's sad that a couple of people fight to keep the bad history of the church alive and on this page. Their bias against our church and ministries is obvious but they continually hide behind the

3742:

It is true that there is no ISBN number. I do understand that the source may be considered unreliable and I apologize for that. I just don't understand how when any good chunk of information is added it is immediately deemed unreliable and taken off. However, people fight tooth and nail to keep all

3138:

No I did not. Arbustoo has repeatedly mistated the facts regarding my edits here and in other places. The diff you provided clearly shows that my version includes the molestation charge: "There is one documented instance where a member of First Baptist was found guilty of a crime of abuse. Daniel

3035:

I agree the history and article should be expanded, but whether the church is 500,000,000 every Sunday or 3,000 (the Hammond page claims its 3,000 every Sunday including busing in the surrounding areas) the criticism belongs there. There are different controveries, which should be included: 1) 1989

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of that effect is nefarious. Lately the discussion page has wrapped itself in an expose' kind of article inclusion, rather that create an article about the church, about its effects in the community, about how people use the church as a place of fellowship, to improve their lives, to have some fun,

2610:

I want to get rid of any article that doesn't rightly belong in an encyclopedia. This article does not belong here. Only one other person on Knowledge (XXG) agreed with you that this article should stay here. It is patently ridiculous to include such nonsense in an encyclopedia. Are we going to

1379:

JzG, your anti-Hyles bias is obvious here. As evidence, you edited out what you called the "hyles fansite" link (edited on 13:37, 22 July 2006 by JzG) with your edit summary of "Hyles fansite can go on the Hyles article"... and you DID NOT edit out the 2 anti-Jack Hyles links under the "Criticism"

992:

BTW: The whole thing about "the seeing-eye dog was instigated by the dog relieving himself in the church aisle" I don't buy. Even if it did happen why ban a person from church because of the dog's mistake- a dog he needs. Then why not even take the time to explain your position with something other

943:

The statements made by the news media would have more weight with me if I had not witnessed their attacks on Jack Hyles for several years prior to these allegations. They always were looking for something to bring him down. Remember the time that FBCH gave out chicks (that is, baby chickens) to the

862:

Why don't you start with something specific? Speaking in broad general terms will get this discussion nowhere. Pick a single point - just one, and dispute it. Argue against the source, it's factuality; provide a counter-source, whatever. Maybe you don't have "hours and hours", but with a little

838:

Where? I asked Teeja to specify which facts should be omitted, which are provably false, which are missing. No answer, just a lot of arm-waving. I'm serious about wanting this article to be neutral, right now it looks as if FBC is a business run for the benefit of high-rolling pastors, if that's

713:

Much of the information you have currently in the controversy section is not from a reliable or neutral source and is therefore not a valid factual source for a Knowledge (XXG) entry. As examples, the paragraph concerning Bob Ross and the associated backup documentation is not from a reliable news

671:

The article doesn't say he's guilty or the color purple. It offers facts that Jack was accused of this, Ballenger connected to Jack raped a 7 year old, and Jack was sued for various things. Whether he's innocent or not, it comes from a credible source and will be included. Also don't edit/add to my

564:

I have added the "totallydisputed" tag to this wiki. If the anti-Hyles people edit all these Hyles-related entries so much so that 75 percent of the information presented is concerning their anti-Hyles "controvery information", something is wrong and additional sections need to be added to balance

4428:

Gwen, while you're dealing with this, perhaps you could look over the Criticism section? In my judgement, the only part that may meet Knowledge (XXG) standards of sourcing and relevance is the "AV Ballenger" section -- he was apparently a church deacon who was actually convicted of something that

3018:

Terryeo- I appreciate your comments. I am impressed that you, a person that has had numerous disagreements with me over the last several months, have come here to this article and made your viewpoints known, despite knowing that you are supporting my viewpoint. You are more honorable than I have

2737:

1) No one said he was charged, but three girls including his niece testified they were molested by him (plus the church worker and security guard). 2) The words "testimony," "testified," "court," "hearing," "prosecution," "prosecutors," "witnesses," etc. all give the impression it has to do with a

963:

There should be some mention in the article of the number of buildings and ministries operated by the church, and of the range the bus routes cover. It would be nice to add some history, such as the fact that the neighborhood surrounding FBCH used to be a red-light district, which the church under

955:

This issue is highly controversial, even within Christian fundamentalism. I know of several leaders within fundamentalism who never spared Jack Hyles from criticism. Several of his fellow preachers around the world simply did not like him, and easily accepted these reports when they came out. But,

677:

Of course you didn't say he's guilty, but that is obviously what you are trying to get readers to believe, and you are having an aweful struggle to write anywhere near a NPV style here. Your edits have proven that you indeed want readers to draw this faulty conclusion, but your conclusion is not a

3368:

An anonymous editor seems ot think we should link to every single one of the church's ministries' websites. We already cleaned that lot out months back. We already link to the church website, that's a reliable source for the article, the other links are not sources for the article and are linked

3276:

Any really large, successful group will, over a period of time (this is my opinion), have a few distateful actions associated with it. Perhaps Angels never, but for us humans, well, here and there, if you look hard enough, you are going to find some distateful thing. How does an editor evaluate

3210:

A newspaper may report all sorts of sensational claims, even anonymous claims, and claims made by people walking down the street. Just because a newspaper reports that "Joe Blow walking down the street says that he believes the FCBH is a bad church", doesn't mean that it is appropriate to repeat

3051:

It would be necessary too, to specify what action the individual was charged with. "molestation" is a different kettle of fish than "abuse", which might, conceiveably involve physical abuse such as beatings or bruisings or even (god forbid) broken bones or something. While "molestation" might be

3002:

handful of (about 4) individuals. A large church in any community will spawn, perhaps 10 newspaper clippings a week, maybe more. "Youth group meets Wed. at 4 PM" and "The Babtist Church is holding a bake sale Sunday at the Safeway" and many more details of people's lives. A large church has an

2868:

You are 100% completely wrong. It wasn't a trial. It was a sentencing hearing. That is completely different from a trial. The same standards of evidence do not apply to a sentencing hearing as a trial, and there is no jury to evaluate the truthfulness of the claims the witnesses make during a

2231:

Likewise I corrected your statements as well when you claimed "people" hadn't attended the college, when really it was Hyles' BELIEF that one "person" hadn't. Later on there was a police investigation. You misatttibuted the quotes of the obituary making it seem like they cam from separate sources

1156:

LOL. It is not notable when 2 out of 100,000 members of a church have committed burglarly. I believe every college would say they try instill a strong moral code in their students. I know lots of public and private universities that are not bible colleges that state just as much in their course

819:

This is not a competition. This not about being "anti-Jack Hyles." This is about sources. If you want to add a tag that questions the sources, you must give a reason. You were given the chance, you did not. You were asked to give an example, you did not. You were given a chance to remove the tags

784:

Teeja, the article on Adolf Hitler also contains mainly critical data. OK, this church is not the Nazi party, but the data is verifiable and appears to be stated in neutral terms. Which data do you think should be excluded as trivial, or alternatively what additional data do you think should be

4500:

Please be aware that my editing this article is for its own good. Also feel free to take a look at what I wrote. The claims were based on no proof! First Baptist is still KJB only. By stating that it departed from its "King James Only" standing is a lie. I did not add negativity to the criticism

3818:

Without preference for any version I have locked the article from further editing. Please make sure all edits are in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines, and please do not edit war by reverting each others' changes. Material should not be copied from other websites, even with

3155:

As for the blind man being banned from the church -- I don't believe that is appropriate for an encyclopedia article about FBCH. We only have one person's statement about the matter and no other verifiable sources to back up his claim. There is no indication from the Church that indicates that

935:

I attended First Baptist Church of Hammond, Indiana, as a young sailor during the Fall of 1984. For years, I had heard of Jack Hyles (I remember my pastor giving high school graduates from his school a copy of Hyles' "Blue Denim and Lace."). I was quite willing to make the 100-mile bus ride from

872:

I really enjoy the personal attacks. First this anon. editor claims there is a conspiracy behind "unsource" attacks, then I source the article and provide independent sources and I become part of the conspiracy. Anon. IP, attacking me does nothing for your case. This is about facts. If you can't

723:

footnotes are unreliable and highly opinionated, but yet you have it listed here like it's a legitimate news source; also, the section on Joe Combs should not even be here, this is like suggesting that because Joe Combs used to be member of First Baptist Church many years ago, the church is now

4193:

I can't fight this fight alone, and you and I along with many others that read this or are involved know that it has been a fight. I'm asking you to help me at least flood out the bad with some good. I'm working with people to gather up positive and CURRENT articles of the church from "reliable

4148:

organization with 15,000-20,000 members is going to have its share of scandal and worries. Here we have an article about an organization with thousands upon thousands of members throughout its history and yet it narrowly homes in on three incidents from years ago, saying little about the church

3446:

Why can't this man sit in the area where all the parents sit with there kids. I do understand that the man would be a interupption but everyone has a right to come and hear the words of God. Who are you to say he can't come to church. You are not the man uupstairs. The man has rights you know.

3409:

A survey was sent to more than 2,000 of the largest non-Catholic congregations in the nation by Church Growth Today. A small selected group of smaller churches was invited to recommend churches. Participants were asked to recommend up to 10 churches they considered to be among the nation's most

3019:

imagined. As soon as I saw your signature here, I figured that you had followed me here to disagree with me on all my articles just to spite me. How refreshing to see that you are willing to sacrifice whatever personal distaste you have for me and to stand up for writing a good encyclopedia.

2162:

Just because the paper documented that a unproven allegation was made, doesn't mean that it should appear in an encyclopedia article. And I DON'T CARE what you think about it either. All I care about is that the policies and guidelines of Knowledge (XXG) are followed and that the articles are

947:

When my sister was an aide to Pastor Hyles, about the same time that these allegations began to surface, I asked her about the allegations of sexual misconduct. She said they were untrue. She still attends FBCH, along with her husband (who she met at Hyles-Anderson Christian College) and her 4

852:

You guys are not all interested in verifiable anything. We have corrected Arbustoo's junk with a more balanced view, only to have his junk reinstated again and again, supported by his admin friends, who state that we are "valdalizing" the wiki. This seems to be nothing more than a hatchet job

3760:

Firstly, the information concerning Jack Schaap, though it may be "cited," targets not a dead person, but a living person. Secondly, the cited information is from his book with someone misinterpreting what he said and distorting and twisting his words in addition to his motives of writing that

3344:

The "Teaching" section of this article is a bit lopsided as far as reporting is concerned. This information actually belongs under the "Controversies" section. What does the church really teach? Everything in the "Teachings" section is completely negative and subjective. Both sides are not

3296:

You are really missing the point. Articles must include documented criticism leaving such information out because you and Vivaldi consider it a small minority (when you can search the internet and find all kinds of sorid details on Hyles from past supporters) is insane. If you want to write an

2889:

I'm not trying to remove the fact that Ballenger was a convicted pedophile. That information properly belongs in this article. In all likelihood Ballenger probably did molest those girls, but my feelings (and Arbustoo's feelings) do not belong in an encyclopedia article. And no matter what,

1014:

students (according to the text). This is only remotely related to the church. Are you going to include every story about a person associated with FBC Hammond? I doubt it. It would make this Wiki extremely large and off topic. You seem to be trying to post anything negative that you can find -

808:

Congratulations, Arbustoo, your steadfast efforts have paid off for you. This is a big waste of time and effort. Arbustoo has too many editor friends and admins who are willing to defend his warped view of what constitutes "facts" and valid sources. He also has so much time on his hands that

665:

As a reply / response to your questioning of this tag, please note that the "manner of presentation" of the controvery is an issue and is not written in a NPV, also, the sheer quantity of "controvery" data as presented in relation to other Hyles information on this wiki gives readers a distict

4570:

Please do not blank out entire sections (Church teachings) in order to hide what the FBC church leaders believe. Jack Schaap's teachings have NOT been repudiated by staff or leadership at FBC, therefore the Teachings Section will stand as-is, unless and until the church website issues a full

4429:

took place on church property. It also seems reasonable to state that Jack Hyles has repeatedly been accused of misconduct, and refer to the article on him for details. The remaining material looks to me like mudslinging that is either poorly sourced or has marginal relevance to the church.

4108:

Then ask. The church has a campus with dozens of buildings and hundreds of rooms and locations where individual preaching services and Sunday school classes are held. About 55 preaching services are held on any given Sunday. There are departments for every group of people (nursery, primaries,

2078:

My opinion is that, if the article was not deleted, it should stay and be cleaned up. Thus, I don't support Vivaldi in merging that article here, not because he is working behind the curtains, but because I don't really think it should be merged here. However, I repeat: assume good faith! --

951:

I think that it is appropriate to be highly skeptical of such scandalous accusations against someone of Jack Hyles' stature. For the reason I mentioned, newspaper reports aren't very useful. Hyles attracted a lot of enemies, so it is natural there would be people who would try to destroy his

2561:

The actual program refers to seven different churches around the country. While this particular church is mentioned as the common thread, as shown with various articles, it has significance outside this one church and individual. Some researchers might be interested in the program for those

939:

There are many things about First Baptist Church of Hammond that have not been mentioned in this article, but the article is lop-sided with controversial negative statements regarding the church--criticism identical to that found on the page regarding Jack Hyles. Considering the all these

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fact that the information is "relevant" (which it is not relevant at all to the present ministry and leadership of the church) and "properly cited from reliable sources." Their only excuse for anyone trying to remove that information is exactly that and they won't let anyone touch it.

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The point of a reference is so anyone can find the source and back it up. Right now, I can't find any proof this book exists. What's its ISBN? Who is the author? I can't even fine one google hit for "Olan Mills Publications." Rather there is a church directory using that number:

699:

The tag you add claims "factual accuracy of this article are disputed." How is the accuracy disputed? You are claiming the "amount" of criticism is POV. That is not factual dispution. The tag will be removed if you cannot prove that the Chicago Tribune is a disputed source.

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are not a reliable source, since it was this paper's editor (Robert Sumner) who first launched the public attack upon Jack Hyles in 1989 - hardly an unbiased and pristine source - Mr. Sumner has a deep personal axe to grind here; also, all the information supported by the

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I'm a disinterested 3rd party. I don't live near any of the churches involved. The article states the weekly attendence is about 20,000. About 1/2 the article states some facts about the Church. About 1/2 the article then is newspaper clippings which talk about a very

920:

Consideing the amount of cited documentation for the "disputed" sections, I'm removing the disputed tag. If citations are available that amplify or conflict with the information already provided, those citations should be added to the "Controversy and criticism" section.

2075:. Seeing Vivaldi's previous contributions, I don't think he is acting with bad faith. He is just checking if the article should be merged here by discussing in the talk page. He is bringing the different options that have appeared in the AFD under others' considerations. 3984:

and you'll see that they were doing that back in the 1970's. I'm sure that they arrive at that number over multiple services. At the time this article was written, they were the most attended church in the US. I don't think that TIME MAGAZINE is a "sketchy source"

2710:

You are also now stating an outright lie. The other 3 girls did not testify at Ballenger's trial. Not only that but the word "trial" didn't even appear at all in the source you gave. Do you know why Ballenger was not ever charged with molesting the other girls?

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valid nor logical fact. Guilt by accusation is not the way things work in the United States and many civilized countries. The whole point is that all these things are in dispute, not the existance of the press reports you cited. --Teeja 02:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

4056:

I'm not sure what the weekly attendance is on the Corn Palace or Wall Drug. Perhaps you should go look that up and run an analysis on it, get back to us and let us know what you find out. If it turns out to be relevant to this or another article, then put it

2105:, but you have tried to make his article 90% about unproven allegations of a couple of malcontents, one of whom was fired by Hyles. Your edits show a clear bias and I'm confident than anyone who takes a gander at your edits will come to the same conclusion. 2157:

LOL. No newspaper has ever accused Hyles of any misdeeds. Glover has never been published by anyone but himself! Nischik has never been published by anyone but himself. They are not professional researchers and they are not professional journalists.

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article that excludes criticism do it on your own webpage. Until then articles with public access will allow criticism, which include information on convicted child molestors, tv news, newspapers, books, and a blind man getting banned from the church.

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I have unlocked the article. However, please be aware that, given the long and sad history of this article, edit warring of any kind, even below the threshold of 3rr, will not be allowed until this article has truly settled down. If Knowledge (XXG)

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Call Olan Mills Publications. The book is a published book and thousands of copies of the book were published. It was published in November 2007. CALL THEM AND GET PROOF YOURSELF. Reference number is 18665. Olan Mills - (800) 845-1157 -- jonsuh

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Because that is what sells newspapers! Perhaps the guy had a history of all sorts of bad behaviour in the Church. There is nothing that was said by anyone at FCH that indicates that seeing eye dogs are in general banned from the church.

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Primarily because the prosecutation believed them. A perjury charge would require that the prosecution show that the events that were described did not take place and that the girls willingly lied about that fact. Proving that something

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I don't know, and I don't really care. It is their property to use or misuse how they want. Is this still a rule at FBC? I don't know. I personaly don't want strange dogs around me. If I were there, it would probably have bothered

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at 20,000, although I think this is likely still too high (and either way it's unclear whether "attendance" here means unique visitors to the building or would include repeat visits by those attending more than one event each week).

2938:

I see no need to remove massive amounts of criticism in the press especially an article about police "worrying" over a convicted child molestor passing candy to kids at Hammond. Nor is there any explanation left for its removal.

1061:

I'll start adding some info about remotely related events. See how full of clutter this becomes. Why don't you just state your true motivations. You say you can't find other stories? I assume you are unable to use the search

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I don't think the number of lines of criticism should be based on supporters. Also it is rather strange that Vivaldi removed all mention of a deacon convicted of molesting a child during a Sunday school class at the church

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Additionally, please don't ask me to "prove that these things didn't happen". You are the one using this Wiki entry as a list of grievances - the burden of proving these wild accusations using valid sources is upon you.

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free reign if it caused problems? More than that, would someone still harp on a single incident involving a single man 22 years later? It's things like that paragraph that keep Knowledge (XXG) from being taken seriously.

879:, how have you "corrected Arbusto's junk with a more balanced view"? Please support assertion with a citation. The only thing you have done is removed cited information from newspapers. You have not "corrected" anything. 2890:

untruths that are not verifiable do not belong in the article. The 3 girls absolutely 100% for certain did not testify during a trial as Arbustoo claimed. They testified during a hearing, which is "without question"

2509:

Who cares? Hyles was never charged with a crime. The police said that neither he or his church were under investigation. And now you want to put it in an encyclopedia as fact. Your bias is showing through clearly

2022:

I added references from four cities around the United States showing it mentioned outside of the Detroit broadcast and the Hammond community. Researchers outside of the Hammond church might find the article of use.

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Should every college/university student that commits a crime have his story posted to his schools Knowledge (XXG) article? It would make every article cluttered and useless. And this Wiki isn't even for the

4136:

Likewise, text on the church's activities (ministries and so on), along with its influence on other churches and ministries would be helpful. Moreover, I see that some content is needlessly duplicated in the

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my comments were made at 02:33 and Vivaldi's edits to recruit the delete votes was made at 02:22, 7 May 2006. Since my comments of 02:33 Vivaldi began contacting the rest of the voters at 02:37, 7 May 2006.

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particular churches, such as the San Diego one, which is outside the scope of this article. And perhaps letting the article exist it will lead to others expanding it. It can always be merged down the road.

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It doesn't hurt anything if organised properly. The ministry section has been chopped down to a single paragraph too. Maybe the other external links should be listed at the end and indented with a :*.

882:

For those interested, I finally listened to the "preying from the pulpit." There are some very disgusting quotes by Hyles and his son-in-law who is defending the convicted child molester (AV Ballenger).

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Once again you state your opinion on this, but I disagree. A blind man getting banned from the church cited in the media is worthy of mention. I've never known of any church to ever do such a thing.

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etc. A large church necessarily is supported by a lot of people. The main effect of a large church with a lot of people should a major part of the article, instead of the effects of 2 or 3 people.

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I'm not trying to whitewash anything. Maybe some others here have, but not me. Arbustoo deletes almost anything that isn't scandal related. I post relevant information about FBC and he deletes it.

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Concerning the information about Jack Hyles, NO allegations concerning him led to an arrest or charges put forth. Yet the information is up there to represent what the church is and he was about?

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article, it seems to me that pretty much all the content from that article could easily be merged into the controversies section in this article. Is there any reason why we shouldn't do this? --

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But Sgt. Hedinger was corrected by his boss a few days later, when Capt. Bill Conner, chief of detectives, said "There is no investigation of the First Baptist Church of Hammond or Jack Hyles".

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included? And what grievance does Arbustoo have here? Other than a general tendency to look for (and find) data to balance hagiographic articles I don't see he has any particular agenda here.

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Above, on this talk page, is a long consensus of supporting the inclsuion of these notable controversies. If you view the history of the article, you'll notice a long history of IP whitewash.

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It would also be good to mention that if the Spanish Ministry at First Baptist Church of Hammond were to form their own church, it would be one of the largest congregations in the nation.

4882: 3291:. Clearly those changes show a deliberate attempt to make the criticism seem like it comes from a select few while removing court cases and other controveries the church was involved with. 2039:. Two out of ten thought we should keep it. Clearly the consensus of editors is against keeping it as-is. A single nightly news broadcast is not a notable topic for an encyclopedia. 502: 2767:

1) Why wasn't Ballenger charged with molesting the 3 other girls? 2) A hearing is different from a trial. There is no jury to weigh the evidence and make a conclusion at a hearing. 3)

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than a "no comment." If you have a uncitation it should be included, but without a concrete source to back it up from a paper it seems like something told to justify it after the act.

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the description of a trial. It mentions witnesses, testimony, prosecutors, etc. Moreover, the content of these witnesses testimony is pretty much consistent with Arbusto's claims.--

735:

You are too busy removing stuff and not reading it. For example, you are claiming the Combs piece has not business in the article. If you take the time to read it, the connection is:

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is innappropriate. I have removed numerous edits where you even mischaracterized the words of the sources cited so that the claims against Hyles seemed even worse than they were.

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As long as it contains a few links to relevant sites. But when they are all links to the organisation's own programs and are available from the official website, it's unnecessary.

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Arbustoo is not longer editing Knowledge (XXG) actively and the RfC on Vivaldi is still awaiting 2 people that can certify that they have tried and failed to resolve the dispute.

2611:

start making articles for every expose that appears on Extra! and 60 Minutes? It is just plain dumb. This article is dumb. This is no reason it should exist in an encyclodia.

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article. Either way, a church this big is overwhelmingly likely to be doing stuff readers would take as "positive" but the article hardly even hints at this and lastly, minding

646:

Since there is no evidence on this talk page of what facts are supposedly in dispute, and since verifiable citations have been provided for them, I suggest the tag is removed.

176: 2189:: The Jack Hyles Case," written by Glover, delves into Texas-based evangelist Robert Sumner's allegations of moral laxity, doctrinal heresy and financial impropriety by Hyles. 839:

not the case then we need real verifiable facts to balance it out. It's not going to be fixed if those who support the place are just going to shout abuse from the sidelines.

4099:

So 14,000 show up for Sunday school. Fine. Are they all in that building at once? Do they run them in shifts? Do they hold classes in a nearby spacious parking lot? What???

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Does this church have meaningful involvement in its local community (which seems to include part of a major US city), other than busing in thousands of attendees each week?

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So that's probably a direct quote from their website or something, and it simply means that 20,000 people walk through their doors, in total, every 7 days. Whoop-tee-doo.

3139:

Lehmann of the Chicago Sun-Times wrote, "In March, 1993, a deacon at First Baptist, A.V. Ballenger, was found guilty of one count of child molestation dating from 1991."

1054:

First off, DON'T EDIT MY COMMENTS ON THE TALK PAGE. If you want to respond, do so. But your editing of my comments shows that you are trying to hide your real motives.

590:

It is completely untrue that they do not use the KJB, and is based on a rumor. This kind of material does not belong in an encyclopedia. Don't troll on Knowledge (XXG)!

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I contributed to the Ministries and Outreach section. It also needs expansion and linkages, since I know this is not the full extent of the ministries of this church.

469: 430: 406: 284: 212: 4842: 3349:. If you must leave the other information under the "Teachings" section, at least add this information from the link I provided. Thank you for your consideration.-- 367: 4222:

article. Given that this topic is indeed encyclopedic, here are some things to think about putting in (with sources, even from the church's own website if need be):

3073:

What are you referring to? The article clearly states "In 1993 a First Baptist deacon was found guilty of molesting a seven year old during a Sunday school class."

2648:"Three women said Thursday they were fondled by a Hammond church deacon who was convicted in March of molesting a 7-year-old girl in 1991 in a Sunday school class." 4446:

Yes, I've been thinking rather much the same things. Moreover, although these evangelical churches do tend to get muddled with their charismatic leaders, the late

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The book reference, "First Baptist Church 120th Anniversary," according to google and amazon brings up nothing- no books or mentions at all. Therefore, its not a

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In no means am I a writer, nor do I pretend to be one. I'm trying to gather some people to help me write material to put on here. Your help and input along with

1600:

come across that from the humblest chapel to the great Cathedrals of England. Do you think St Peter has a "no dogs" sign at the pearly gates? I'm guessing not.

534:

Please use this area for discussions concerning this Knowledge (XXG) entry on First Baptist Church of Hammond. I think we should talk about positive things...:)

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Individually? No. A "crime spree" by a group all of whom are alumni? Of an institution which prides itself on inculcating a strong moral code? Absolutely.

4613:

The Arbitration Committee are proposing to remove sanctions related to this topic area which appear to be no longer required. Details of the proposal are at

3679:. The "book" was made through olan mills that produces merchandise on demand by people who want it. It is no different that using their website for a source. 1203:

insists on including. I deleted his scandal section because he keeps deleting my edits. Go ahead and leave the scandal section, but quit removing my edits.

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Was Ballenger ever charged with molesting the "two other girls"? How can you say the other two "were molested". Did you witness it happening yourself?

1541:. And if you say that it is constitutional, you obviously haven't read the Constitution or have no ability to understand it (like most American idiots). 898:, is the issue? I've seen a whitewash, and that was clearly unacceptable, but I haven't seen any credible refutation of the content Arbustoo has added. 171: 4872: 4832: 4257:

Here is a list of articles that would be considered "Reliable Sources." The articles are relevant to the ministry, outreach, and influence of the church.

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Kalmia, anyone who wants to see Arbusto's edit history can see it trivially easy without using Interiot's tool, just click "user contributions" (or type

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If you read the source you would know that four girls (including the 7 year old), a church worker, and a former security guard testified at the trial.

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excepted from any no dogs rule. Do you not think that standing on the letter of the law in order to exclude guide dogs reflects poorly on a church? A

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Jack Hyles bought and converted to church buildings. Indeed, the Sailor Ministry building, which I have visited, used to have such a sordid history.

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itself, which I find highly PoV and very likely misleading (never mind that main church building strikes me as one of the ugliest I've ever seen).

820:

yourself, you did not. Your bias is very clear. You are personally involved with this church and another editor as you admitted on your talk page.

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essentially barring a disabled person in this way. Since it is sourced and several editors think it is pertinent, it has a place in the article.

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I have written hours and hours of reasons explaining to you on talk pages why your deliberate efforts to use biased language in an article about

1187:

Please explain why we need links to every single one of their little ministry pieces and why we need things like who the 5th grade principal is?

2088:

It's a little hard to assume faith when this user has constantly deleted my changes without giving reasons and has made personal attacks to me.

737:

one babysitter testified "that they suspected Esther was mistreated but didn't want to contradict Combs, who had been their Bible professor at

4031:

How about you just put the reference given in the places for historical attendance in the first paragraph? No problem in giving the date...--

142: 97: 4822: 4812: 4550:) 04:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)) Also here is Jack Schaap stating it in a youtube video that it's what "First Baptist Church uses exclusively". 1380:

section? Seems to me that you're more than willing to edit pro-Hyles links OUT of the article, while maintaining all the anti-Hyles links.--

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It's a good article about the topic in question, and the lack of it being in the article led to the article being nominated for deletion.--

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of the criticism and negative information when it falsely misrepresents the church and its CURRENT ministry, outlook, goals, outreach, etc.

3404:

First Baptist Church of Hammond has been named one of the 50 most influential churches in America, according to The Church Report magazine.

1978:'s edits are strictly POV. For example, Vivaldi wrote at the Preying from the Pulpit AfD nomination: "It was a nightly news series from an 4603: 4542:

states that they believe that the KJB is the word of God. I attend the college and sit under long lectures about it also. I should know! (

3520:. There may be a few things there that are sourced well enough to be acceptable, but it isn't my job to extract them from all the libel. 3052:

something like .. well, I don't know but less lasting, wouldn't you think? Perhaps the newspaper or the court proceedings are specific.

3003:

effect into the community. The problem with this article is, only a tiny percentage of that effect into the community is included. And

2527:

The sources show that this grabbed the attention outside the Hammond community, and also don't break apart my sentences and paragraphs.

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instead of the one, and among many other examples you removed the mention that a BLIND MAN WAS BANNED FROM THE CHURCH in this article.

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magazine described the church's claim that it had the "world's largest Sunday school" as "rock solid for the U.S., if not the world."

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In response to Terryeo above, I think that the important item to bring this article into a neutral point of view would be to, as the

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If you or anyone else would like to propose additional text supported by this cite, to add to the article, I'll be happy to do it.

2800:

Vivaldi, the citation provided by Arbustoo is from a reliable source. You'll need a really good reason not to include that stuff.

2575:

It can always be gotten rid of immediately as well. 8 out of 10 editors voted to get rid of the Preying from the Pulpit article.

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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Pastor denies adultery, 2 other charges Michael Hirsley, Religion writer.; Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); May 25, 1989; 1;

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juniors, teens, single adults, adults, homeless, sailors, etc.). The organization of a Sunday is quite complex and intricate.--

1040:

Yes, please do stay on topic. The article states "former students" and it deals with the church, its leaders, and its attorney.

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aisle. And, in a group with 20,000 people, there probably are going to be a few bad apples, so naming some doesn't mean much.

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Surely you have evidence to support your claim, or to refute the information you tried to remove. Please present it here. —

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Charges all lies, Hammond pastor says Michael Hirsley, Religion writer.; Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); May 28, 1989; 3;

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it would seem to me that this article is not under probation anymore. Nor are several other articles that are listed in the

4291: 3823:. Material that is repsented neutrally and which cites reliable sources should not be removed with cause and an explanation. 1985:

However, when the station name and other changes were added to tighten up the Hyles article, Vivaldi reverted these additions

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there are many other people who are fiercely defensive of Jack Hyles. It is not easy to tell who is fighting for the truth.

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Considering Hammond Baptist controls the school and this was reported in a court of law, it is very relevant to the article.

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What is the history and current state of this church's influence upon other Baptist churches in the states and/or worldwide?

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May 24, 1993. Even though Jack Hyles said he welcomed such an investigation, the police chief Capt. Bill Conner confirmed

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I'm guessing a lot of them pass through just because it's a tourist attraction, kind of like the Corn Palace or Wall Drug.

376: 4774:. I will be removing the arbcom probation template from all of the pages listed at the first link cited in this message. 4071:

Perhaps I should. I'm just still wondering how they stuff 20,000 people into that building without violating fire codes.

1043:

It stays. I'd add positive news articles, but haven't found any. If you do please add them. Stop removing cited sources.

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First Baptist was ranked 24 among the other churches on the list. The churches were recommended by other church leaders.

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Looks to me like he did give a reason for questioning your sources, with examples (try reading the above paragraphs). --

550:

A section listing ministries and a brief description of each should be added. I may add one. Others should contribute

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Great Lakes, Illinois to First Baptist Church every Saturday so that I could attend church services there on Sunday.

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You originally sought to delete the article, but now that is it still around you want it to disappear by merging it.

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So did you change your mind on including it? Because you have removed this material, without comment, several times.

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source, rather, it's from a completely biased and dubious web site (www.kjvonly.org); also, the quotes supported by

602:

search archives for Jack Hyles and you will find the sources in the article. To read the articles you must register.

1825:"Perhaps" is your uncited personal conspiracy theory. A church banning a blind man is notable enough for a article 1065:

It isn't about positive or negative. It's about relevancy. But according to you, anything negative is relative.

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Church leaders sued in sex-abuse case Chicago Tribune wires.; Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); Oct 16, 1991; 3;

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It doesn't hold 20,000 people and the article doesn't claim this. The article (and rather sketchy sources) claim

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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was a sketchy source. Anyway, let me know if there is anything else in that article that you'd like added here.

3493:. BLP deals with living persons. What claim, and subsequent source, about a living person are you calling not a 474: 3354: 78: 60: 625:

Newspaper feud adds fuel to preacher's fire Eric Zorn.; Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); Jun 30, 1989; 1;

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No investigation of church in abuse cases, police say Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext); May 24, 1993; 3;

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and other policies are followed, this is very likely to happen, but not foregone. Please feel free to add

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when both were on the bus alone that he would run his hand inside her dress and fondle her private areas.

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The Links at the bottom are relevant. Some of you insist on making this Wiki nothing but a scandal page.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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Please do and anything you write yourself, if need be, can easily be smoothed out, so no worries there.

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represented here which makes for poor reporting. Here is a link to what the church believes and teaches

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

332:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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and a clear attempt to white wash the page. More non-critical material needs added, but not like this.

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Regarding "Divine Inimacy": Changes made to reflect the Wiki article on Jack Schaap after discussion.

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An "External Links" section at the bottom of a page is in keeping with the format of most Wiki pages.

3516:, I have removed the entire Criticism & Controversy section, because it is full of violations of 616:

REV. JACK HYLES LED BUS MINISTRY James Janega, Tribune Staff Writer; Chicago Tribune; Feb 9, 2001; 11;

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Alright, looks like things are going a little back-and-forth up there. Anyway, after looking at the

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2007/03/20/community/lake_county/doc7e760a90739bde7b862572a3006660f8.txt

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I was wrong on the ADA date. Care to reference a 1984 or pre-1984 citation for the claim you added?

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A editor just added a totally disputed tag to the page. For interested parties on the sources visit

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https://web.archive.org/20090117131521/http://outreachmagazine.com:80/docs/top100_2007_largest.pdf

4141: 3981: 3902: 3845: 3560:. The church is not a BLP (Living Person), but it doesn't matter because all claims are backed by 3278: 3053: 3009: 2103:

Not a single reputable or reliable and verifiable source has accused Jack Hyles of any crimes EVER

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Dogs are banned from most public buildings and almost all establishments selling food in the UK.

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http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2008/04/18/news/top_news/doceae584c6872032e08625742f000e4ec3.txt

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The page is protected now, but someone with authority should edit and add the following source:

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First Baptist Church of Hammond has been named one of the 50 most influential churches in America

2192:) Again in 1991 Glover's Fundamental Seduction is mentioned in the Times: "Glover wrote the book 4713:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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First of all, NO, They are allowed to exclude dogs. Those buildings were built well before the

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/03/07/news/lake_county/doc2b48be0d5794c919862574050011c9d7.txt

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2007/10/24/news/lake_county/doccfb45d915067ad468625737e0001bd6c.txt

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/03/20/news/lake_county/doc2e2d4cf3650dc19386257411007eb580.txt

4316:

http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/03/15/news/lake_county/docd557ab348cbb9bde8625740c0081930d.txt

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/07/11/news/lake_county/doc5447a77d8c4de07b862574820083a863.txt

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2007/07/01/news/lake_county/doc89de41a9ed77c9a08625730a00804507.txt

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magazine article. This at least clearly establishes some historical notability for the topic.

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http://nwitimes.com/articles/2008/07/18//news/top_news/doc3dd98f998d518e288625748a000861d7.txt

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Sgt. Charles Hedinger, a Hammond police detective, described the investigation as "open-ended.

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Because the OFFICIAL title of this article is OFFICIALLY First Baptist Church of Hammond, not

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BY: Capsules were compiled by Nathan Baird, Henry Del Valle,Chicago Tribune; Nov 18, 2002; 14;

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These claims are cited in reliable newspapers. Such as you attacking Glover, "The pamphlet, "

1019:

You seem to be trying to post anything negative that you can find - however remotely related.

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2007/03/21/news/top_news/doce2518f4c4f908c77862572a50007eabe.txt

4274:

http://www.nwi.com/articles/2006/07/13/news/lake_county/a301a8026b30fdcc862571aa000f4581.txt

4268:

http://www.nwi.com/articles/2005/10/20/news/lake_county/11344c5cd0542c22862570a0001422c5.txt

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Sunday school attendance. There is more than one Sunday school class for people to attend.--

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Pastor Denies Adultery, 2 Other Charges Hirsley, Michael; Chicago Tribune; May 25, 1989; 11;

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Would you prefer if I stated someone elses opinion on the talk page? What is your point?

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http://www.nwi.com/articles/2008/07/17/updates/breaking_news/doc487f8290e1fc7404591655.txt

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What ministries and other activities are sponsored by (or have spun off from) this church?

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Eight out of ten editors have voted that we either merge the article or delete it outright

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Charges All Lies, Hammond Pastor Says Hisley, Michael; Chicago Tribune; May 28, 1989; 2C3;

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However, while the FBI concluded "there is insufficient evidence to probe allegations,"

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The fact that there is a policy against dogs is implied, though. Why else make a fuss?

1199:

It's info related to the church. It's more relevant than some of the other things that

542:

a section about its history should be added. I may add one. Others should contribute.

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The fact that there is a policy against dogs is implied, though. Why else make a fuss?

1772:

The fact that there is a policy against dogs is implied, though. Why else make a fuss?

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to claim that FBC should have been forced to allow dogs into their buildings in 1984.

239: 4735:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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Just my 2č ... I agree with JzG and Arbusto here. The article that Arbusto quotes is

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So you say, but I find it significant. I can't think of any comparable example of a

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Therefore, the tag should not be removed, and doing so would constitute vandalism. --

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A description of the campus and its uses, along with the history of its development.

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the article ... can you please comment on the proposed merger of the article at..."

1550:

and they are church buildings. Secondly, you show your stupidity when you cite the

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Yes, that story is true, but this isn't even the Hyles-Anderson Wiki, and they were

661:"Disputed" tag is in the discussion area of the Jack Hyles Wiki, which I list here: 4523: 4339: 3251: 3212: 3157: 3094: 3020: 2974: 2895: 2870: 2844: 2822: 2777: 2712: 2676: 2612: 2576: 2546: 2511: 2438: 2399: 2347: 2278: 2164: 2160:

Not one single reputable or reliable source has ever accused Hyles of any misdeeds.

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children. Her two oldest children are now students in the day school run by FBCH.

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http://www.elmertowns.com/books/online/10_largest_ss/10_Largest_SS%5BETowns%5D.PDF

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That church company does not appear to be a "publisher," but a company that makes

3204:

A blind man getting banned from the church cited in the media is worthy of mention

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I think it might be worth mentioning Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Hyles Murphrey,

4539: 2276:"There is no investigation of the First Baptist Church of Hammond or Jack Hyles". 1208:

I agree that the ministries section needs to be cleaned up, but quit removing it.

4615:

Knowledge (XXG):Arbitration/Requests/Motions#Motion: Removal of Unused Sanctions

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I'd like to see some concrete evidence that that building holds 20,000 people.

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is the person who added promotional material directly from the church's website

3246:

no longer needs to be followed word-for-word. However, suffice it to say that

1707:

So leave the section, but my edit to it should stay too. I guess what you and

396: 4701:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 4591: 4551: 4447: 4137: 3709: 3346: 2920:. The way to resolve content disputes is not through edit war. Please go to 2742:. 3) Do you know why the girls who testified were never charged with perjury? 2098: 1909: 970: 810: 764: 725: 690: 451: 306: 300: 269: 229: 124: 3672: 2071:

I am one of those contacted by Vivaldi. Please, Arbustoo, remember to always

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a consensus Arbustoo, but I'm not sure too many others feel the same way.

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babysitter testified she "reported her suspicions to the college president

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More bad faith by Vivaldi. This user is contacting users who voted delete

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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add

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Do you know why the girls who testified were never charged with perjury?

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The testimony from two girls relating to Hammond is a part of the past.

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Yep, but you got them from one source and should be presented that way.

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Feel free to add positive information. Just make sure they are sourced.

2916:

This is not good, guys. I have had to block two editors for violating

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The controversy seems to be more interesting than the subject-matter...

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Two other girls allegedly molested at First Baptist Church of Hammond

3208:

Newspapers and encyclopedias have different standards for inclusion.

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Post Staff Writer. Denver Post. Denver, Colo.: Aug 22, 1993. pg. 7.C

2196:, which was critical of Hyles' financial dealings with church funds" 4594:, talking about its history, finances and describing it as a cult. 2468:"Springs drive-by baptisms immersed in controversy." Bruce Finley, 4665:

to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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carefully.). This seems more like vandalism than a valid concern.

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Somebody can add this. Maybe I will. This was in todays paper.

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Jack Schaap is the pastor at First Baptist Church, 473 Sibley St.

2475:"7 accused of abuse linked to preacher." The Grand Rapids Press. 4617:

where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee,

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Was Ballenger ever charged with molesting the "two other girls"?

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Since it's mentioned in this article, some may be interested in

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effort over time you can improve the quality of the article. --

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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913788,00.html

3546:, which is the same person who removed all the cited criticism. 2489:"Lehmann, Daniel J. "Pastor Linked to Sex Abuse Lashes Out," ' 54: 26: 1953:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles_for_deletion/Preying_from_the_Pulpit

1927:

Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion/Preying from the Pulpit

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find relevant stays, but what I find relevant gets reverted.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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http://www.outreachmagazine.com/docs/top100_2007_largest.pdf

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http://www.neighborhoodsinc.com/Annual%20Report%202006.pdf

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Once again you state your opinion on this, but I disagree.

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I have just added archive links to one external link on

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I've added the 1975 Sunday school attendance information

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I want to include the information about Ballenger trial

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The following was summarized and added to the article:

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Articles from different cities on the Preying article:

2272:"NO INVESTIGATION OF CHURCH IN ABUSE CASES, POLICE SAY" 2056: 2054: 1989: 1986: 1983: 1519: 672:

posts or titles. Arbustoo 02:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

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I've never known of any church to ever do such a thing

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The police say otherwise. The Chicago Tribune writes

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influential. A total of 83 churches were recommended.

2058:. Note Vivaldi's comments are "you suggested that we 1028:

to see how you obsess over these FBC related topics.

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Unknown-importance Charismatic Christianity articles

4808:

Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance

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Lastly, you have not given a valid reason to remove

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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Evangelical Christianity

473:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 328:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 4705:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 4194:

sources." Your help would be greatly appreciated.--

3347:

First Baptist Church of Hammond Doctrinal Statement

1234:Add substance then. Adding a list of links is what 1518:If you are going to add "details" please cite them 2776:in the distant past is almost an impossiblility. 2589:You just want to get rid of this article so bad. 4883:Low-importance Evangelical Christianity articles 4340:http://www.neighborhoodsinc.com/Partnerships.htm 4585: 3514:wikipedia:administrators' noticeboard/incidents 2482:"Hyles rally takes aim at accusers." Northwest 4848:Unknown-importance Baptist work group articles 4691:This message was posted before February 2018. 4540:http://www.fbchammond.com/new/what-we-believe/ 4123:I did ask, several times. Finally, an answer. 1537:POV, defending unconstitutional laws like the 1058:reason to let your phony scandle section stay. 4878:Start-Class Evangelical Christianity articles 4868:WikiProject Charismatic Christianity articles 4858:Start-Class Charismatic Christianity articles 2465:Union San Diego, Calif.: May 17, 1993. p. A.7 2461:"Preacher has links to molest suspects." The 490:Template:WikiProject Evangelical Christianity 8: 4586:Jack Hyles' daughter, Linda Murphrey, speaks 2954:Knowledge (XXG):Requests for comment/Vivaldi 3819:permission, if it does not comply with our 2398:The quotes came from seperate individuals. 1951:to this article. In the AfD discussion at 58: 4552:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-JnRbj8wqE 3906:, 1 December 1975, retrieved 7 August 2008 2194:Fundamental Seduction: The Jack Hyles Case 1982:, on an unknown date, at an unknown time." 1015:however remotely related.] Stay on topic. 419: 264: 86: 3369:from the church's website, therefore per 187:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 2924:and come to some sort of understanding. 342:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Christianity 4843:Start-Class Baptist work group articles 4762:Removing Arbitration Probation Template 4643:First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana) 4452:First Baptist Church (Hammond, Indiana) 3891: 1947:I suggest that we merge the content of 421: 266: 88: 4266:Christian Womanhood Spectacular 2005: 1635:This was obviously an overblown story. 1588:, which are (in as far as I can tell) 4803:Low-importance United States articles 4232:What is the organizational structure? 3673:potraits, cofee mugs, etc of churches 3250:still think that Leviticus matters. 2706:Why didn't you answer the question? 2437:They all had the same source listed. 7: 4838:Low-importance Christianity articles 1939:Merging with Preying from the Pulpit 470:WikiProject Evangelical Christianity 467:This article is within the scope of 407:WikiProject Charismatic Christianity 322:This article is within the scope of 140:This article is within the scope of 18:Talk:First Baptist Church of Hammond 2862:The article that Arbusto quotes is 1157:catalogs and on their web pages. 873:dispute them you don't have a case. 77:It is of interest to the following 4828:WikiProject United States articles 4798:Start-Class United States articles 565:out this kind of one-sidedness. -- 190:Template:WikiProject United States 25: 4873:WikiProject Christianity articles 4833:Start-Class Christianity articles 4645:. Please take a moment to review 493:Evangelical Christianity articles 345:Template:WikiProject Christianity 4338:Neighborhoods Inc Partnerships: 2493:Sun-Times, June 2, 1993. pg. 5" 2486:Times. June 2, 1993 12:00 AM CDT 454: 444: 423: 309: 299: 268: 232: 127: 117: 90: 59: 41:on 7 August 2008. The result of 30: 4818:Low-importance Indiana articles 3653:http://www.olanmillschurch.com/ 3489:All the criticism is backed by 2199:. Cited criticism is included. 1548:Americans_with_Disabilities_Act 1539:Americans_with_Disabilities_Act 507:This article has been rated as 462:Evangelical Christianity portal 362:This article has been rated as 207:This article has been rated as 37:This article was nominated for 4772:Category:Articles on probation 4629:20:55, 23 September 2015 (UTC) 4581:05:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC) 4242:Thoughts on this are welcome! 3512:Followup: after discussion on 3153:6) the blind man being banned. 2912:Protected, two editors blocked 2479:, Mich.: May 17, 1993. pg. B.2 1080:Special:Contributions/Arbustoo 609:The search that comes up is: 1: 4095:That still tells me nothing. 1533:There you go again with your 926:05:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC) 907:10:55, 24 February 2006 (UTC) 888:01:28, 24 February 2006 (UTC) 868:21:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 858:20:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 848:16:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 834:13:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 825:02:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 814:01:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC) 794:21:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 768:20:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 756:08:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC) 729:20:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 705:19:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 694:18:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 655:13:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 607:05:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 580:01:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC) 570:23:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC) 481:and see a list of open tasks. 404:This article is supported by 384:This article is supported by 336:and see a list of open tasks. 245:This article is supported by 4823:WikiProject Indiana articles 4813:Start-Class Indiana articles 4757:06:55, 12 January 2016 (UTC) 4604:19:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC) 4362:'s would be very helpful. -- 4097:Where are they putting them? 3821:neutral point of view policy 1913:07:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC) 1596:banning guide dogs? I have 4853:Baptist work group articles 4260:Pfc. Shane Penley funeral: 3437:20:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC) 3393:20:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC) 3338:18:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 2866:the description of a trial. 1317:of FBC, and OFFICIALLY per 4899: 4722:(last update: 5 June 2024) 4663:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} 4638:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 4496:18:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4464:16:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4439:16:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4419:02:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4392:21:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4372:17:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4252:16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4204:16:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4159:13:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4131:05:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4119:04:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4104:04:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4091:03:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4076:01:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4067:01:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4051:00:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4041:00:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 4015:23:55, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3995:23:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3964:22:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3947:22:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3925:22:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3882:22:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3857:21:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3834:00:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3806:04:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC) 3722:12:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC) 3689:23:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3633:23:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3600:23:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3578:23:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3530:20:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3507:23:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC) 3484:15:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC) 3474:Knowledge (XXG) policies. 3359:20:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC) 1934:08:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC) 1733:13:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1716:11:19, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1677:10:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1640:09:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1609:09:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1568:09:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1559:09:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1526:08:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1271:10:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1254:09:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1243:08:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1230:03:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1192:03:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1130:13:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1117:11:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 1091:10:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC) 998:19:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC) 984:02:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC) 974:07:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC) 513:project's importance scale 368:project's importance scale 213:project's importance scale 4592:speaking about the church 4564:04:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC) 4534:03:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC) 4454:are not the same topics. 3934:weekly overall attendance 3463:19:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC) 3382:15:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 3310:13:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC) 3282:15:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC) 2952:A RfC has been opened at 1488:18:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 1438:16:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 1385:15:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 1343:15:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 1305:13:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC) 1070:04:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC) 1048:02:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC) 1035:06:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC) 506: 439: 403: 383: 361: 294: 228: 206: 143:WikiProject United States 112: 85: 4784:05:24, 14 May 2016 (UTC) 4332:Neighborhoods Inc 2006: 3260:03:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 3221:03:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC) 3183:22:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 3166:03:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 3122:22:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 3103:03:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 3078:22:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC) 3057:07:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC) 3041:03:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC) 3029:03:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 3013:00:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC) 2983:16:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC) 2961:02:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC) 2944:23:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC) 2933:08:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2904:03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 2879:03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 2853:17:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2831:03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 2809:08:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2786:03:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC) 2747:07:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2721:04:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2694:03:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2685:03:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2670:00:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2621:04:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC) 2594:03:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2585:03:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2447:03:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 2356:03:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC) 1886:16:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC) 1425:Bzzzt! Wrong. My anti 1183:Links and Related issues 739:Hyles Anderson College." 484:Evangelical Christianity 475:Evangelical Christianity 431:Evangelical Christianity 325:WikiProject Christianity 148:United States of America 4634:External links modified 4296:Youth Conference 2008: 4290:Youth Conference 2008: 4284:Youth Conference 2008: 4278:Youth Conference 2007: 4272:Youth Conference 2006: 3675:on demand. It is not a 2567:08:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC) 2555:03:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC) 2543:Preying from the Pulpit 2532:18:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2520:06:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2498:02:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2433:18:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2408:06:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2302:18:48, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2287:06:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2219:02:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2204:03:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2173:03:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2125:03:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2115:03:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2093:02:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2084:02:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2067:02:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2049:02:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2028:02:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 2011:06:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1996:02:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1966:02:12, 7 May 2006 (UTC) 1949:Preying_from_the_Pulpit 1919:Preying from the Pulpit 1830:00:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC) 1785:10:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC) 1334:a link farm: OFFICIAL. 1167:11:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC) 741:Furthermore, the other 716:The Biblical Evangelist 4320:Pastors' School 2008: 4314:Pastors' School 2008: 4308:Pastors' School 2007: 4302:Pastors' School 2007: 1112:isn't in the South. 721:Way of Life Ministries 600:www.Chicagotribune.com 400: 380: 225: 193:United States articles 67:This article is rated 3373:we do not want them. 3328:comment was added by 2187:Fundamental Seduction 1586:Except for guide dogs 399: 379: 348:Christianity articles 224: 71:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 4703:regular verification 4688:to let others know. 4649:. If necessary, add 3796:like that either. -- 3469:Deletions/reversions 1110:Lake County, Indiana 135:United States portal 4693:After February 2018 4684:parameter below to 4486:clean it up a bit. 1330:OFFICIAL subject. 317:Christianity portal 248:WikiProject Indiana 161:Articles Requested! 4698:InternetArchiveBot 4609:Arbitration Motion 3564:(You need to read 1024:Wiki users can go 931:Incomplete Article 894:Once again: what, 877:User:68.21.178.199 401: 387:Baptist work group 381: 226: 73:content assessment 4755: 4723: 4529: 4507:comment added by 4350:City of Hammond: 3635: 3619:comment added by 3465: 3453:comment added by 3341: 3001: 2073:assume good faith 1552:"Disablities Act" 1429:bias is obvious. 1321:we include links 806:OK, you guys win. 745:, but apparently 594:A note on sources 575:Improve it then. 527: 526: 523: 522: 519: 518: 418: 417: 414: 413: 263: 262: 259: 258: 53: 52: 16:(Redirected from 4890: 4751: 4750:Talk to my owner 4746: 4721: 4720: 4699: 4664: 4656: 4626: 4531: 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2435: 2434: 2431: 2427: 2409: 2405: 2401: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2393: 2392: 2391: 2390: 2389: 2388: 2387: 2386: 2385: 2384: 2383: 2382: 2381: 2380: 2357: 2353: 2349: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2333: 2332: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2303: 2300: 2297: 2294: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2284: 2280: 2277: 2273: 2269: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2264: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2252: 2235: 2230: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2225: 2224: 2223: 2222: 2221: 2220: 2217: 2212: 2209: 2205: 2202: 2198: 2195: 2191: 2188: 2184: 2174: 2170: 2166: 2161: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2126: 2123: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2100: 2096: 2095: 2094: 2091: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2082: 2077: 2074: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2065: 2061: 2057: 2055: 2052: 2051: 2050: 2046: 2042: 2038: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2029: 2026: 2021: 2018: 2017: 2012: 2008: 2004: 1999: 1997: 1994: 1990: 1987: 1984: 1981: 1977: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1967: 1963: 1959: 1954: 1950: 1946: 1943: 1942: 1938: 1936: 1935: 1932: 1928: 1920: 1917: 1915: 1914: 1911: 1887: 1883: 1879: 1875: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1831: 1828: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1820: 1819: 1818: 1817: 1816: 1815: 1814: 1813: 1812: 1811: 1810: 1809: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1805: 1786: 1782: 1778: 1773: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1760: 1759: 1758: 1757: 1756: 1755: 1754: 1753: 1734: 1731: 1723: 1722: 1721: 1720: 1717: 1714: 1710: 1706: 1705: 1704: 1703: 1702: 1701: 1700: 1699: 1698: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1678: 1675: 1667: 1663: 1662: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1658: 1657: 1656: 1655: 1654: 1653: 1652: 1641: 1638: 1634: 1633: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1610: 1607: 1599: 1595: 1591: 1587: 1583: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1569: 1566: 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