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Who are you to dictate what is well known? A publication that has existed since 1966 may be to low brow to someone who has nothing better to to then argue a 2 and a half year old post for 9 hours, but may be "well known" in other circles. My issue here is your arrogance thinking you can dictate and
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Even a publisher of a "Magazine" would have to check sources. I don't think it should be discounted based on mass publications sold. This is from the magazines site, Every month they strive to inform, educate, and entertain the metal detecting/treasure hunting community. This is achieved, in great
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the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the
Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
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You say it shouldn't be niche, but the world of the Flor de la Mar IS NICHE. Just because
National Geographic hasn't pulled up a cannon with Flor de la Mar written on it doesn't mean the information isn't of interest to the reader. Once again, that is your opinion, not the entire world's.
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I really doubt that is true, but if it is, the presence of other stuff that isn't policy compliant is a reason to fix that, not to add more badly sourced stuff. Rushby is a well-known journalist (currently travel writer for the
Guardian) who was writing for a very well known publisher.
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You know I object, I have told you multiple times that that magazine is not a reliable source. Even if it were reliable (it isn't, once again) it would be unusable because it is written by
Langrehr - it is a primary source, not the independent coverage we should have here.
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The Frol de la mar did not sink in 1511, i have an
Italian merchants eyewitness account that states it left Malacca on the 20th of january 1512 and sank 6 days later, so january 26th 1512 would be the date, also all of my archaic spellings of the ship read Frol not Flor.
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I am very interested in the subject of the Flor de la Mar and have followed an individual by the name of Rick
Langrehr who was involved in a search for the Flor de la Mar in 2020. I made a post about the find 2 and a half years ago and it was up on this page until today.
1053:, "de la" is as much a spelling "mistake" as "Frol"). The original move did not have much of any discussion and really had no basis beyond a intuitive jarring discomfort with "Frol", and really just ignored the sources. So I propose a return to the common
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The person who found it, Rick
Langrehr has posted working with the History channel's oak island team on their social media and I see no reason why his finding should be discounted. I am looking for some other editors to give their thoughts on the matter,
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Knowledge (XXG) is full of first hand accounts, not independant coverage, but as long as someone is citing a book published by a "major publisher," in your opinion, first hand written books don't matter. Kevin Rushby for example once again.
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In the 2020 August edition of
Western and Eastern Treasures magazine, an article appears regarding a silver tanka coin being found off the coast of Sumatra in a search for the Flor de la Mar by explorer Rick Langrehr. along with the link
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was a mistake, akin to "correcting" the spelling of "Beatles" to "Beetles". The current article title is not even a full "correction" but a bastardization of the correct and misspelled terms (the original
Portuguese would have been
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Sorry but this has got to fail to be worthy of inclusion. A video and an article created by the alleged finder speculating that the coin is actually from this shipwreck without any independent discussion, opinion or support.
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Though based on the supporting source of the magazine, (which they also argue is not credible) I feel having a primary and secondary corroborating sources should be enough to make mention of the coin having been discovered.
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You do understand that you are speaking with multiple other people, right? I wrote one of the comments you just quoted, and
ScottishFinnishRadish wrote the other. Look at the signatures after the original comments. -
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part, thanks to their talented and dedicated team of Contributing Editors and freelancers. Their contributors are among the most respected, informed, active, and accomplished writers in the treasure hunting field.
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in September 2020. But the fact that it took someone else a while to notice that you had added an event of nearly zero importance based on unreliable sources does not mean that this error cannot ever be fixed.
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your comment "A magazine for metal detector enthusiasts isn't the 'reputable publisher' that Knowledge (XXG)'s policies envision," seems to indicate that you are a final authority on the matter. Which you are
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I prefer not to discuss the same issue in two places simultaneously, but I do hope someone there is able to explain why your sources are unreliable in a way that you are willing to accept and understand.
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
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I am asking that the original coin statements and links, or replaced with a direct YouTube link if not a personal site, be reposted. Or we look at the next steps for arbitration on the matter.
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1032:) and my research since indicates that most secondary sources spell it this way as well. Moreover, all children's books I have come across on the Portuguese discoveries insist on spelling it
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Given there are no guidelines that measure a professional publication's "wiki endorsed credibility" on this site. As such, the new link and phrasing should not be disagreeable to anyone.
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I checked only the first 20 results in each, but they appeared to be 100% relevant. So it would appear that the English-language common name in reliable sources is "Flor de la Mar". --
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as well your comment "Show me three reviews in independent sources to show that it is noteworthy, and we can discuss it," is another example of how this has escalated to an ego issue.
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I see that the Amazon link was removed as part of a general cleanup, but the warning still stands for adding self-published Google sites. OhNoitsJamie Talk 17:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
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If no one else has any objections to the new phrasing then I will repost with the magazine listing rather than a Google site or youtube link to appease Ollie and the Radish
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I am not arguing your other claims of a link to what he is working on, I have withdrawn those. So let's focus on the validity and noteworthiness of citing magazine articles.
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is that ok? I'm not trying to do anything that violates the guidelines, that is what I have been asking this entire time. Mamabear1331 (talk) 17:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
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There are 45,000 references to this? You are turning up imaginary ghosthits. Go to the last page on your search, and you will find your own search actually yields up:
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By simply citing the magazine published an article I am not presenting it as a majority view but as the very simple fact that a magazine published the article.
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speak for Wiki Policy all on your own. The article is of interest to me, and others I am sure. You are not the gate keeper to what is or is not "well known."
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Yes the link is to a google site which hosts a short documentary hosted on youtube as well as showcasing a magazine called Western and Easter treasures.
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Actually, it's not wrong - well, not wrong here. It's wrong as reported by contemporaries & chroniclers, whom typically spelled it "Frol",e.g.
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The airport is not listed as João Paulo II anywhere. The airport's own website calls itself simply Ponta Delgada, and has no mention of João Paulo.
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In the other page I am offering a re-write and different link, But you don't like talking in two places at once so you likely missed that.
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The Guardian's editorial staff. Also, the Rushby cite isn't being used to support a claim that he personally made an archaeological find.
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Just as Kevin Rushby of the Guardian had an editorial staff for his articles so to would Langrehr have with the magazine publication.
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Yet somehow him sitting on a container ship and going no further than Sainte Marie is "Note worthy." Again in your opinion.
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Knowledge (XXG) should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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the common name of this ship. It is spelled this way in practically all Portuguese chronicles of the time (e.g. ,e.g.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Again there is also a short film documenting the find, but because it is on a youtube link I'm told it is invalid.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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so relentlessly in Portuguese literature, and being taught this way today to children, I'd have less concern.
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The above is correct, the flor struck the shoals on the 26th of January 1512 and sank on the 27th. surinder
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Who can change headline from Frol de la mar to Flor de la mar? Flor de la mare ist the name of the ship
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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The naming in the original Portuguese sources counts for little. What matters is the English-language
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Again this was a post listed on this page for 2 and a half years but now seems to be a problem.
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Fair enough, that is why I am asking if I link to the Magazine page https://www.wetreasures.com/
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Also, finding a coin that isn't proven to be from the wreck isn't really noteworthy. Also, per
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listed explicitly and not assume they are only intermunicipal entities (which accessorily are
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Is everyone ok with that link and phrasing? Mamabear1331 (talk) 18:07, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
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Outweighed, yes, but not nearly as crazy. Yes, I see that several English writers opt for
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Fair enough, there are often ghost hits. But a 2:1 margin is still fairly clear.
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feel that the links I have used are not credible and repeatedly delete my post.
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Knowledge (XXG):Dispute resolution noticeboard#The Flor de la Mar discussion
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Yes Ollie I am aware. I welcome you to participate in the conversation at
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150618202740/http://www.flordelamarfilm.com/
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Who wrote the article in the metal detecting magazine? Was it Langrehr?
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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Again well known measured by what? Your omnipotent view point?
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if it isn't moved, seems like a redirect should be created. --
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And if others agree that the magazine is a credible source?
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They are arguing that we don't use links to youtube pages.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Discussion for new information on the Flor de la Mar page
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1283:Flor de la Mar
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1055:Frol de la Mar
1051:Flor de la Mar
1010:Frol de la Mar
1006:Flor de la Mar
1002:Frol de la Mar
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992:Flor de la Mar
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935:— Preceding
932:
909:— Preceding
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482:Early Modern
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40:WikiProjects
1196:sources. --
1047:Flor do Mar
1018:Albuquerque
859:Albuquerque
590:Structure:
298:Need images
217:Os Lusíadas
2011:Categories
1984:WP:NOTNEWS
1374:Report bug
1201:HairedGirl
1125:HairedGirl
474:South Asia
1971:Lyndaship
1904:Lyndaship
1890:Lyndaship
1467:Langrehr
1357:this tool
1350:this tool
1173:Walrasiad
1073:Walrasiad
875:Walrasiad
1545:itsJamie
1465:to boost
1363:Cheers.—
1209:contribs
1154:for Frol
1148:for Flor
1133:contribs
1060:Relisted
937:unsigned
923:contribs
911:unsigned
832:Dohn joe
790:unsigned
769:unsigned
761:Comments
551:criteria
462:Maritime
273:Requests
199:Portugal
112:Portugal
103:Portugal
59:Portugal
1908:MrOllie
1906:, yes.
1846:MrOllie
1798:MrOllie
1770:MrOllie
1698:MrOllie
1655:MrOllie
1591:MrOllie
1559:MrOllie
1439:MrOllie
1287:my edit
1225:Comment
1026:Correia
915:Paggeau
867:Correia
231:More...
210:Improve
166:history
139:on the
30:C-class
1712:WP:DUE
1456:you're
1242:Oppose
1205:(talk)
1129:(talk)
1095:Lisbon
1087:Oppose
1049:, not
1022:Barros
901:Update
863:Barros
470:Indian
320:Wikify
286:Assess
238:Review
204:Lisbon
36:scale.
1538:WP:EL
1453:seems
1432:Yes,
1199:Brown
1123:Brown
1030:Couto
871:Couto
466:Asian
418:Ships
376:Ships
330:Vote:
266:box).
176:purge
171:watch
1992:talk
1975:talk
1960:talk
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1543:OhNo
1528:talk
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1500:talk
1485:not.
1473:talk
1462:here
1459:only
1443:talk
1423:talk
1393:and
1250:talk
1233:talk
1188:And
1177:talk
1169:Frol
1165:Frol
1161:Flor
1077:talk
1068:talk
1042:Flor
1038:Frol
1034:Frol
983:talk
977:. --
945:talk
919:talk
879:talk
836:talk
798:talk
777:talk
401:Ship
278:See
161:edit
1451:It
1331:RfC
1301:to
1207:• (
1131:• (
1064:BDD
1040:to
1024:,
1004:to
979:BDD
865:,
263:not
258:not
131:Low
2013::
1994:)
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1339:}}
1335:{{
1252:)
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1179:)
1152:34
1146:64
1079:)
1062:.
1028:,
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1014:is
994:→
985:)
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869:,
861:,
847:→
838:)
830:.
800:)
779:)
640:/
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476:/
472:/
468:/
464:/
460::
346:—
1990:(
1973:(
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514:.
415:.
143:.
42::
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
