Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Koinophilia

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celebrity. (Both Langlois and Koeslag were invited to contribute to the program, but circumstances prevented either attending the interviews.) The term was also used in one of the episodes of the TV show "The Office". And I have already mentioned Stephen Fry’s QI program. The person who wrote the poem entitled “Koinophilia” (referred to above) had this to say about how he came across the term: "I read about koinophilia in a popular psychology magazine in the U.S. called Psychology Today. But that was years ago and I no longer have the issue or recall the issue#. There are googles of sites referring to the term. There is resistance to the theory of koinophilia because of “political correctness.” But that doesn’t invalidate the term itself. There are religious fanatics who oppose evolution, but not even the most fanatical would deny that the term evolution exists....." I have no idea what is “politically incorrect” about the term “koinophilia” – and, although Judith Langlois assiduously avoids the term, it is nevertheless her work, right from the beginning, that is most commonly associated with the notion of “koinophilia”.
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likely to be associated with mathematics and statistics, and complex formulas, than with biology or physical attraction. "Koinophilia" is the term used for "Averageness" by the general public, and in popular culture. Thus no TV program or popular science discussion would entitle an episode "Averageness", as it sounds, at the very least, uninteresting, and probably mathematically boring. Viewership would fall drastically. It is impossible even to imagine Stephen Fry asking his QI panel what "Averageness" means. It would have left the panel and audience baffled by its inaneness. Instead "Koinophilia" got a lively and humorous response, and a spike in hits on the Koinophilia article in Knowledge (XXG) last year. So I do not think that redirecting to, or merging the articles under the title of "Averageness" improves, or is in the best interests of Knowledge (XXG)'s usefulness to an inquiring mind.
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and think it should be merged; that will mean moving some edited text and citations to the other article, which I hope we can then get to GA status. I have therefore started a formal merger discussion on that article's talk page (we always do such discussions at the proposed destination). I'm in fact
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I would agree that there is a problem if an article overly relies on work by a one specific author and is also written by that same author - independent of whether it has been frequently copy-edited by other Knowledge (XXG) editors. The risk exists that the article will be identified as a neologism -
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It is always an awkward question when an article has evolved in this way whether to try to copy-edit one's way to clarity, or to start again from the cited sources. The latter looks like a lot of work but is clean and straightforward, and usually doesn't take more than a few days. I've had a quick go
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It is therefore something of a surprise to find that the argument is stated and restated, in something of the style of a Gould essay on a curiosity of evolutionary theory, complete with asides, exceptions, anecdotes and colourful examples. All that's missing is the crisply witty ending. A lot of this
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section of this article seems out of place on a page concerning Evolutionary biology theory. Though the research described in this section lends an ounce of support for the theory in question, the bulk of it belongs elsewhere. To my eye, this section being so large and high up on the page means it
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The amount of overlap varies considerably, in some it is considerable, others less so, but the repetition of ideas is remarkable. A fair number could easily be merged without any loss of Knowledge (XXG) informativeness. But each article adds its own flavor, richness and perspective to the topic. In
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That's correct. If we are going to merge the two articles, then we need to satisfy ourselves that the merged article contains all that is worth having from both articles, and that the two terms really are "the same". I suspect that on the contrary K. means "averageness in visual appearance" which is
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Also, I've just noticed that the paragraph in the introduction starting 'Koinophilia provides simple explanations for' includes the items 'what constitutes a beautiful face' and 'how the individuality of a face is recognized' which are not in the same sphere as the evolutionary items in the rest of
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after considerable editing of the article to render it more encyclopedic, initiated the GAN process, long before I had any notion as to what "GAN" meant or implied. But it was his idea, and certainly not mine. So here is an independent reader/editor who concludes, from simply judging the article on
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Neither seem at all appropriate at this time, given the above citations; if the topic proves to be indistinguishably close to Averageness (which we have definitely not established) then a merge would be in order, given that there is material here not found there; if the topic is different, then the
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They don't as examples disprove the claim by J8079s that most mentions of the concept use some other term - that's quite a tricky thing to disprove as you'd need a review paper or two, or perhaps an authoritative textbook, which summed up the field as a whole. (Ruby 2011 is not a valid source, it's
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Okay, so I trust without detailed review that the sources (Discovery, Office, QI) you've listed all check out. That would give the term borderline notability for its use in popular culture, but give only weak indication to its academic merits. I don't think this question can ultimately be addressed
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The other observation on this topic is that "Koinophilia" has, on average, twice the number of hits than "Averageness" has. As was pointed out on the Talk Page some years ago when the subject was first flighted (and then dropped) is that "Averageness" is an ambiguous, and unexciting term, and more
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The article's notability and separate identity have been agreed, so as you say, the correct course now is to note, neutrally and without prejudice, the arguments for and against the concept, with the evidence that supports them. Any claim added without reliable sources will be removed; everything
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I am slightly at a loss here, regarding the heated arguments concerning merger with "Averageness". Firstly it is one of the strengths of Knowledge (XXG) (but can on occasions be a bit frustrating) that one can look up almost any topic under the name that raised your curiosity or interest in the
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The term koinophilia derives from the Greek, koinos, "the usual", and philos, "fondness". As a mating strategy it was identified in humans by Judith Langlois and her coworkers, who found that the average of two human faces was more attractive than either of the faces from which that average was
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speculating on whether Helen of Troy's face really launched 1000 ships or whether her face was simply a composite of 1000 women's faces giving her her legendary beauty. There was a program entitled "Koinophilia" on the Discovery TV channel with Nancy Etcoff (from Harvard University) as guest
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I think it makes the most sense to delete the section entirely. The paragraph in the introduction starting with 'As a mating strategy it was identified in humans by Judith Langlois' is sufficient mention of the research. All that I suggest to add to that paragraph is a link through to the
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tag is valid but is a "caution and warning" notice, not a roadblock as such. The difference between Averageness and Koinophilia seems very slight if it exists at all, and I'd personally not object to a merge-and-redirect if other editors would like that (this means a fresh
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How ever no one observing a dog in heat or even aware of the enormous variability of human sexual response would find this very convincing. Moreover , this mechanism suffers from the absence of any practical means of actually achieving sexual isolation apart from theory.
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Google hits wouldn't surprise me as Knowledge (XXG) unfortunately creates further ripples in the pond. It distorts reality, and that's hard to filter out. I would be happier if we could substantiate that this is a widely used term based on the peer reviewed literature.
1111:. The coverage in this article is more substantial than in Averageness so a merge of the cited materials seems necessary, rather than a simple redirect. The name "Koinophilia" would appear in boldface in the Averageness article as a valid synonym and redirect target. 1069:
there is strong support for this in the talk page archive. Nothing I can find uses the word to mean anything but averageness. That Koeslag extends the theory is reportable at the target page if a source can be found.Knowledge (XXG) is not here to host or review
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As was previously noted, an account called Jkoeslag made an edit to their page to redirect to the Oggmus account. You are now referring to Koeslag in the third person. Is the Oggmus account operated by Koeslag or by several people?
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Redirecting effectively deletes this article. As this long standing article appears to have a great deal of information not present on other pages, I am re-instating it and suggest further discussion and agreement be sought.
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here but the article seems reasonably even-handed on the science, and it is absolutely in order for a Knowledge (XXG) article on a topic to describe its theory and the evidence for and against it, provided that is cited.
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OK, I've now done a little reading around the subject, which definitely doesn't make me an expert. It seems that Koinophilia is a term introduced by Koeslag and used occasionally by other authors, so its use here is not
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Perhaps that grading needs to be revised after a long series of revisions of the article. I have simply left it at C as the least controversial choice; the article has references but has not been assessed further.
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Knowledge (XXG) is not a popularity contest. We don't judge things on whether they make good memes or good marketing. Also, the mere fact that some articles haven't been merged yet, doesn't mean they shouldn't be.
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This article has been under development now for 8 years. It is not far from being a Good Article but both the lead and the body read as somewhat essay-like arguments rather than simple encyclopedic descriptions.
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It might be worth searching for "koinophilia" on Google put the usage of the term into perspective. It has even been a question on Stephen Fry's BBC programme "QI". (BTW. reference 1 has been cited 30 times).
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subject in the first place. As a result a great many topics are spread over multiple articles. To give one example, "beauty" is duplicated and complemented by the following articles (in no particular order):
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cribbed from here.) I think, though, the other sources are enough to raise sufficient doubt that K is a junior synonym of Averageness to stop any immediate merge pending further investigation.
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I noted the heat with regret, and can say that I liked the article when I read it, or I wouldn't have spent time copy-editing it. However, I am persuaded that it substantially overlaps with
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Not really the tag I wanted but it will do. The word koinophilia (coined by the creator/major contributor of the article) by means the same as Averageness. This page should re direct to
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The term "koinophilia" gained considerable popularity amongst the general public during the early 1990's, sparking, for instance, this poem by Richard Fein on the internet entitled
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page as a destination as there are points made in this section which are not made in the Averageness page and the Averageness page is referenced as this sections main article.
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its inherent merits, that it would "sail through" (or words to that effect) the GAN process. (Chiswick Chap, I hope I am not misquoting or misrepresenting your comments.)
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11:29, 10 April 2015 (UTC) Oggmus is Koeslag. I used the third person as the use of the first person would have been confusing when the paragraph is signed "Oggmus".
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A redirect will save the history as opposed to a deletion which will remove it. This appears to be a just rewrite of of the editor's published (or unpublished) work.
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Please re reread the article and substitute the word "averageness" for "koinophilia" also note that none of the sources in the above quote use "koinophilia".
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derived. The more faces (of the same gender and age) that were used in the averaging process the more attractive and appealing the average face became.
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Encyclopaedia Britannica this does not occur, which, for me, makes it an entirely useless, boring and a frustrating source of hemi-demi-information.
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will be checked for neutrality of tone and encyclopedic value. Within those ordinary constraints, by all means expand the article.
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certainly not the whole topic and may well be a worthwhile subtopic, I don't know, but it needs investigating before we boldly go.
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Yes well said. A few notes from the source In a positive the theory acknowledges/confirms that evolution is discontinuous however
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Apicella C., Little A.C., Marlow F.W. (2006) Facial averageness and attractiveness in an isolated population of hunter-gatherers.
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The argument for koinophilia - that extremes are selected against because the average is safer - can be stated in one sentence.
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as a result the theory is "simply insufficient to explain speciation". I trying too to see how to work this into the lead.
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These certainly show that the term is at least in some kind of use (and they need citing in the article if not already).
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Page Count: 26 as extended by Koeslage. I am going to boldly re direct this page. Futher work should take place there.
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I quote: "I don't think this question can ultimately be addressed other than through peer-reviewed academic papers.
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Unnikrishnan M.K. (2012) Koinophilia revisited: the evolutionary link between mate selection and face recognition.
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and reuse of the sources would indeed be best. It would be good to see this interesting evolutionary topic at GA.
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the sentence or paragraph so I would delete those as well (or incorporate them the following paragraph perhaps).
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I think the stuff here should move to a new home "koinophilia" has not caught on as the name for averageness.
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Proposal to move the Koinophilia#Averageness and physical attractiveness section to the Averageness page
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Alam M., Dover J.S. (2001) On Beauty: Evolution, Psychosocial Considerations, and Surgical Enhancement.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Are you thinking of removing the "Physical attractiveness" section completely (heading and all) to the
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is confusing to the reader trying to understand the proposal and intention of the evolutionary idea.
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Otto S.P. (1991) On evolution under sexual and viability selection: a two locus diploid model.
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Grading Koinophilia: grade as sub-B, in fact I think it deserves deletetion, see reasoning at
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Also, I think that the Introduction section would be better titled something else, since the
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in several article titles, but Langlois et al. in none - nor do any of the other references.
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in the article; WP:Citation overkill is not always bad, but there is a big case of it in
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Last edited at 10:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 21:21, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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page, or leaving behind a very attenuated discussion of what had been there before?
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My search at google books and jstor indicate that "koinophilia" means the same as
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discussion, here, with notices at the top of both source and target articles, see
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The title is not specially important; what title would you suggest for the topic?
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There is so much work to do that I would be afraid to start. I think your idea
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To put in a more Wiki way we will need to give the critics proper weight per
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The article can stay but the holes must be reported. There are plenty. See
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comes from the original IP editor's casting of the article back in 2007.
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Unnikrishnan M.K. (2009) How is the individuality of a face recognized?
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Leopold D.A., Rhodes, G. (2010) A Comparative View of Face Perception.
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Yes, move and merge. For this article, the content seems too broad.
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at cleanup but am not specially satisfied with the results. Perhaps
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Selection of important articles that cite the Koeslag 1990 paper
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The Microcosm Within: Evolution and Extinction in the Hologenome
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The Microcosm within: Evolution and Extinction in the Hologenome
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Rhodes G. (2006) The Evolutionary Psychology of facial Beauty.
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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Therefore I recommend this should be moved, and suggest the
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in fact does suggest that no other authors use this word.
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Journal of the American Medical Association: Dermatology
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as there are correctly cited and reliable sources. The
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COULD EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE - MERGER DISCUSSION IS AT
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WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology articles
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Facial aesthetics. Concepts and clinical diagnosis.
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I think wikipedia is being used to publish 106:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Molecular Biology 8: 1714:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles 1456:) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( 261:Template:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 962: 187: 47: 473:for instance, Koeslag and co-authors use 171:the Molecular and Cell Biology task force 559:this version of the Introduction section 1704:C-Class Sexology and sexuality articles 1694:All WikiProject Molecular Biology pages 449:: Maybe, but the article is cited, and 189: 49: 19: 1445: 1420:Jr., William B. Miller, (2013-12-04). 109:Template:WikiProject Molecular Biology 1532:No concrete means of sexual isolation 522:that could use some work and one for 7: 581:is supposed to be the introduction. 238:This article is within the scope of 86:This article is within the scope of 943:http://www.jstor.org/stable/2744016 38:It is of interest to the following 1654:B-Class Molecular Biology articles 358:Moving towards Good Article status 280:project-independent quality rating 241:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality 14: 1591:several discussions in past years 1452:: CS1 maint: extra punctuation ( 861:Journal of Comparative Psychology 451:has been edited by numerous hands 1669:Mid-importance Genetics articles 1555: 892: 596: 318: 225: 215: 191: 79: 51: 20: 292:This article has been rated as 264:Sexology and sexuality articles 708:Journal of Theoretical Biology 1: 1674:WikiProject Genetics articles 1406:Now the bad news This source 1168:Secondary sex characteristics 252:and see a list of open tasks. 168:This article is supported by 144:This article is supported by 100:and see a list of open tasks. 89:WikiProject Molecular Biology 1630:10:42, 7 February 2015 (UTC) 1613:06:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC) 845:Annual Reviews of Psychology 561:; see that first paragraph. 1684:Low-importance MCB articles 1730: 1573:15:13, 26 April 2015 (UTC) 1549:18:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC) 1516:05:07, 23 April 2015 (UTC) 1495:01:39, 23 April 2015 (UTC) 1475:22:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC) 1396:10:20, 20 April 2015 (UTC) 1383:15:50, 19 April 2015 (UTC) 1354:09:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC) 1335:18:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC) 1300:11:18, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 1280:11:01, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 1244:13:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 1234:10:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 1220:08:34, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 1198:08:24, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 1121:18:54, 14 April 2015 (UTC) 1083:22:10, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 1056:17:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC) 1026:18:21, 13 April 2015 (UTC) 1011:18:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC) 997:14:06, 12 April 2015 (UTC) 977:21:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 955:19:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 925:16:01, 13 April 2015 (UTC) 910:05:42, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 876:16:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC) 695:13:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 683:13:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 663:11:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 643:07:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 632:07:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 614:05:42, 15 April 2015 (UTC) 591:05:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 571:05:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 547:00:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 486:04:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 468:00:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 298:project's importance scale 112:Molecular Biology articles 1664:B-Class Genetics articles 1598: 1586:Talk:Koinophilia/Comments 1535:would not apply to plants 1171:Human physical appearance 513:19:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC) 431:19:19, 9 April 2015 (UTC) 388:08:38, 8 April 2015 (UTC) 291: 277: 210: 167: 143: 125: 74: 46: 1426:. Universal-Publishers. 1129:To merge or not to merge 818:(6):795-807. doi:10-1001 1312:Physical Attractiveness 1290:NOT HERE --- THANK YOU 1144:Physical attractiveness 1016:article should remain. 553:There's currently some 147:the Genetics task force 1462:I work very slowly so 1416: 1402:Notability established 1044: 255:Sexology and sexuality 233:Human sexuality portal 199:Sexology and sexuality 164: 140: 28:This article is rated 1411: 1153:Fluctuating asymmetry 1039: 163: 139: 32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 1679:B-Class MCB articles 1266:Unnikrishnan, M.K. ( 555:WP:Citation overkill 419:WP:original research 740:Miller W.B. (2013) 518:We have a page for 1579:Assessment comment 1185:User:Chiswick Chap 753:Naini F.B. (2011) 534:is the way to go ' 165: 141: 34:content assessment 1639: 1638: 1363:Averageness page. 1162:Female body shape 1147:Sexual attraction 1037:From the article 979: 967:comment added by 766:Ruby C.D. 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Index


content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Molecular Biology
Genetics
MCB
WikiProject icon
WikiProject Molecular Biology
Molecular Biology
the discussion
???
importance scale
Taskforce icon
the Genetics task force
Mid-importance
Taskforce icon
the Molecular and Cell Biology task force
Low-importance
WikiProject icon
Sexology and sexuality
WikiProject icon
icon
Human sexuality portal
WikiProject Sexology and sexuality
human sexuality
the discussion
C
project-independent quality rating
Low

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