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is supposed to emphasize their notable roles. If you discount every non-country song Urban has ever worked on in his life, his notability ids the same. However, if you only look at Urban's work with genres outside of country, he doesn't even come close to being notable. Furthermore, band articles almost always include a genre in the lead sentence, and there's no concern with that leading to any misinformation, and I don't see how individual artists are that different. Finally, I disagree with your claim that you don't ignore the discussion that it should be judge on a case by case situation because case by case means that some situations should mean that some articles should have the genre in the lead and that each case should be judged by the artist; however your argument is always the same and rarely specific to the specific person in question. Finally claiming that anyone who wants the genre in the lead is ignorant or apathetic is offensive and makes no sense. Who or what exactly am I supposedly being apathetic to? The subject of the BLP? Ridiculous. They usually self identify as country singers and never reject the label. If an artist ever explicitly rejects the label country singer, I would never argue for inclusion of country in the lead in that case, even if every single song they ever sang in their life was a pure country song. However, that is never the case.
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isn't the focus of this chat. Case-by-case means I could choose to remove something just as easily as others could decide to insert it. When I mention ignorance, I'm talking about when people don't realize they could be giving a misleading implication, so that could simply be an accident on their part. Being apathetic means not caring how overgeneralized it sounds. Sorry if it came off the wrong way before, but no offense was intended there. However, you repeatedly have demonstrated that you don't care how it oversimplifies what Urban (and others who work with multiple genres) have done by inserting it there when you know it's not the only thing they've worked with at all. It comes down to more than just singles as they by no means are the only thing people such as him record and aren't the only type of songs that matter when discussing one's musical style.
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worked in more than country, even if he doesn't get as much recognition for it. In all fairness, that list does mention that it includes people who at any point performed country even if they also worked in other genres, so it's not like listing him there inherently means he was exclusive to that genre. While I understand how it could be seen as whitewashing any of its listed people as "just a country singer", the explanatory note it gives does help clarify that isn't the intent, so I wouldn't quite call that an equivalent of using "country singer" in somebody's opening sentence.
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someone only works with a specific genre is problematic. It doesn't matter if one genre a person used is more prominent than others. We shouldn't give readers false impressions that people such as Urban only have worked with a specific type of music. Regarding other discussions as well as this one, anybody who tries to insert genre into opening sentence (or supports such an idea) evidently isn't factoring that in either. Some people do so out of ignorance while others such as yourself do it out of apathy.
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Zealand doesn't have birthright citizenship. The article currently states that he does have New
Zealand citizenship, but it is tagged as citation needed. Urban moved to Australia at a young age, grew up there, and started his career there and is sourced to have Australian citizenship. Urban's career however, didn't really take off until he moved to America in the 90s. Some time before the 2016 US election, Urban became an American citizen and voted in America for the first time that year. In
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is why I started that discussion on BLP, so that one way or the other, we could just end this discussion once and for all. I honestly would have preferred that discussion to end with a consensus to just not include genre in the lead, so that it would at least finally put an end to the debate. Perhaps I'll start another discussion there again to see if consensus has changed. It has been over 1.5 years.
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case with the
Britannica link. Unfortunately, it's painfully obvious that JDDJS doesn't care about misleading impressions given his long-running campaign to needlessly insert genre in many opening sentences where it frankly doesn't belong. A more appropriate thing to do would be to mention genre within a subsequent sentence within the lead.
1647:, you don't find listing three separate countries to be clumsy and overloaded? Also, it has been established that we don't automatically have to list the country of birth in the opening sentence if it's not particularly relevant. Is there any particular reason why him being born in New Zealand is particularly releveant here?
848:"country rock" are mentioned as a genres in the infobox, and his nephew is described as "Australian country artist Rory Gilliatte" yet there is reservation about that same descriptor for the subject. How is his cousin, who apparently has no WP page, more of a country singer than the subject of this article?
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I accept your apology, but I still strongly disagree with you that we're giving any false impression by including country in the lead because it adequately describes the type of career he has had and the overwhelming majority of his music. This is just a topic that we're never going to agree on. That
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Every single that Urban has released is considered country (or a subgenre like country-pop). So we're not at all giving any false impression here. Yes, he might have worked here and there in other genres, but that's not what he's notable for. So your main argument isn't at all accurate here. The lead
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that someone looks at the lead to get an idea of the subject's "general occupation", as though you have to be paid in order to be notable for something. They want to know what the subject is well-known for, and if the article talks about all the country music he made, it would make sense to describe
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I strongly oppose listening in three nationalities in the lead as I feel it overloads the lead sentences and just doesn't sound right. Since he referred to himself as a dual
Australian-American citizen, that's probably the best one to go with, but I don't feel extremely strong about that. While I'm
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like that), and unlike you I don't go out of my way to find large numbers of articles in one run to insert/remove any genre. Many of my removals are also because it's not the only genre somebody has worked with (such as for this article).Y our blatant disregard for how misleading it can be to imply
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is described as
English nationality as opposed to British as that appears to be his preference, despite no legal existence for English citizenship). Has the subject stated a preference otherwise would probably continue my current preferred options. Does the subject or RSs emphasise the fact he was
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Alright, I took the liberty of editing the lead based off language you provided. I would not be against separating such a statement into multiple sentences, but I can't help but to think that this is a good compromise. By the way, I notice that this article has a handful of technical issues I will
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It would be more concise and encyclopedic to say "is a New
Zeleand Australian singer known for his work in country music" if anything, though I would prefer separating the genre into another sentence. Something I do appreciate is how you try to factor in nuance. We shouldn't downplay how Urban has
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page to be equivalent to introducing him as a country singer in the lead? Because I see them as the same kind of labeling that could still potentially whitewash him as "just a country singer" in some people's minds, but in my view that would ignore the fact that if you are on that list, it is very
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singer", as previously edited. Again, that does not mean that he only works with country, but he appears to be most well-known for his contributions to that genre. Are there genres other than "pop rock" that his music is associated with? The lead says he has songs on the "Hot
Country songs chart",
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This is a... very interesting debate indeed. At the end of the day, if someone is known for being a country singer, or for otherwise performing that genre/style of music, then the lead should most certainly say something about it. In fact, it is practically absurd how "Country", "country pop", and
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The fact that he has worked in any other genre at all means we shouldn't imply he only works with country, even if it's the most prominent genre of his career. While band articles probably shouldn't put genre in opening sentence either (especially if they work with multiple genres), WP:OTHERSTUFF
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how is my "long-running campaign to needlessly insert genre in many opening sentences" any different than your long running campaign to needlessly remove genre from opening sentence? At least unlike you, I actually start discussions and RFC on talk pages to discuss the matter (and for the record,
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as country isn't the only genre he has worked with, even if it's the most prominent one. Describing him as a "country singer" in opening sentence incorrectly implies he hasn't used any other genres. I'm not going to pretend like Urban only has worked with that. HouseOfChange also brings up a good
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There have been some discussions about what nationality to list in the lead, but none that have had a lot of discussion. Listing three different nationalities is rarely done. The facts to keep in mind: he was born in New
Zealand, however it's unclear if he has New Zealand citizenship because New
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Birthplace isn't always a significant part of a person's self-identity. Indeed, some people even hate where they were born. If Urban does not mention New
Zealand, it should not be part of his "identity" in the lead. Rather, just mention that he was born there somewhere in the "Early Life"
891:, on the other hand, "is an American singer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, record producer, actress, author, businesswoman, and philanthropist, known primarily for her work in country music." This is also perfectly acceptable, to say that they are well-known for this genre of music.
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majority of those discussions I have started have resulted in an overwhelming consensus to include genre in the lead). And the idea that it doesn't belong in the lead is entirely false and ignores the overwhelming consensus to allow it in the lead on a case by case that happened
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and I feel this should be done at more articles that end up with these complicated debates. Nationality is not that big of a deal that we need to state it outright at the start of the first sentence and only leads to nationalistic lame wars. Something along the lines of
1017:, not that it couldn't be anywhere in the lead at all. There's a difference between the two and you've misconstrued my stance. I even just said above that subsequent sentences in lead are better for such detail. Secondly, the linked discussion closing with a
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It is a bit clumsy, although not as much as others make it out to be. However, I don't think we should sacrifice clarity and accuracy for the sake of simplicity. The lead should prompt the reader to continue on with the rest of the article, and I think that
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result means people can also remove them. At no point have I tried to pretend like it never existed. As for differences in our actions, I don't embark on any campaign at all and simply remove where I deem it unfitting (remember that editors can
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Thanks for the ping and clarification, so we know he has legal citizenship of both, but does he have preferences for one or the other he personally identifies with. I suppose I am more famliar as to how it often works on UK articles (e.g.
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that most artists, especially skilled artists, are going to be working with a variety of genres. Calling Keith Urban a "country singer" underlines, rather than diminishes, his notability. It indicates his mastery of this particular genre.
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Even though very little, if any, of his non-country repertoire is mentioned in the lead, I think we would make the most progress saying something like "a New
Zealand Australian singer most notable for his contributions to country music".
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According to an above editor the subject, describes himself as option 3 (but need a cite to confirm), if so I would probably weak support option 3 second to option 1. We should certainly mention is nationality somewhere in the lead per
1479:, he says he has dual Australian-American citizenship, with no mention of New Zealand. With this in mind, which of the following options do you think is best to use in the lead? (If you have an alternative option, feel free to add it)
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I think someone is impersonating Keith Urban. Today, Wednesday, January 18, 2023. I'm having a conversation but they want me to switch over to Google Chat. That's not normal for someone who's suppose to be whom they say they are.
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By the age of 17 he had moved to
Australia. But when? Did he become an Australian citizen? If he was a NZ citizen and resident until mid teens, and then moved to the USA as a young adult, is it even appropriate to call him an
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Keith Lionel Urbahn AO (born 26 October 1967) is a singer, songwriter, and record producer, known for his work in country music. Born in New Zealand, Urban moved to Australia at a young age and has resided in America since
985:. I know that you like to pretend that discussion didn't happen because it goes against your belief to never include genre in the lead, but as you were an active contributor in that discussion, you are clearly aware of it.
698:, it was decided that whether or not to include the genre of an artist in the lead of the article. So should this article refer to him as just a singer in the lead or should it be country singer?
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While it can be in the lead, it could also be in a later section because it isn't critical to knowing or understanding his life. If in the lead, like the version above that Aircorn provided.
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1713:: I support this option as it is one that Urban uses himself to describe himself. While his background is complex, including every variation of his background in the lead is unnecessary.
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When I think of Keith Urban, I think he's a country singer. Not much of an opinion or contribution, but nevertheless, it is one of someone who doesn't listen to country music that much.
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or however you want to word it. Its not overly strenuous to add the extra detail to the lead and if it results in better accuracy and less edit warring and debate then is well worth it.
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is "an American singer and songwriter" who is noted for his "integration of rock and roll elements into the country genre". Again, explicit mention of the country genre/country music.
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Even if he is primarily a country singer, unless he is ONLY a country singer then we should use the less-restrictive "singer" but certainly also mention "country" in the lead.
857:, wherein fairly arbitrary criteria was dogmatically endorsed. I agree with the consensus of that discussion, which was that every case will be different. I disagree with
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Definitely much better than just an oversimplified "country singer" description. As much as I prefer a separate sentence for genre, I could probably live with your edit.
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born in NZ? The article does not state when he moved from NZ to Australia. Just not certain if that "New Zealand-born" is worth noting in the lead. Regards
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not a fan of leaving out nationality from lead sentences in most cases, this in one scenario where I could see that working, so option 5 is not bad either.
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calls him a "singer who earned recognition both inside and outside the country music sphere for his pop-rock influences and honest lyrics."
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and sufficiently pertinent to be mentioned in the lead section. A minority of editors argue that Keith Urban should not be described as a
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more than likely address soon, namely the use of unsupported Infobox attributes and a ridiculously long URL in the reference section.
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Again, it's not so much the lead itself I oppose including genre in as it is the opening sentence. We can instead mention that within
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1617:: The nationality story is complex here so it definitely needs to be cleared up later in the article (which it is done well in the
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who was leading a genre-shift, even though you could certainly call Presley a country singer, given all the country music he sang.
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He is only known for country and the media almost always refers to him specifically as a country singer and not just as a singer.
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him as a country singer. This is not to say that is the only kind of music he makes, but it does not appear that Keith Urban is
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https://web.archive.org/web/20131014181911/http://www.roughstock.com/reviews/single-review-keith-urban-little-bit-of-everything
1690:. Personally, I tend to be very interested in people's birthplace as it puts into context their (and their parents') history.
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don't list any specific nationality in the lead sentence, but explain his complicated nationality in the lead paragraph.
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in the lead section (or first sentence), as Urban has also been associated with other genres. The suggested phrasing in
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He's a dual American & Australian citizen by his own admission. Not stating his Australian identity is ridiculous
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appears most supported in this discussion, with good arguments from all regarding their preference for 1, 3 or 5. -
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If it's complex, leave it for the body where it can be properly explained. A quick summary in the lead may violate
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1900:), so the Early Life section mention of born there is enough, though it could add that he moved at age 2. Cheers
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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is a quick way of describing the complexity and prompting a reader to follow up with the rest of the article.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150106223804/http://www.country935.ca/2013/01/11/keith-urban-posed-for-playgirl/
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904:. Yeah, this guy is a country singer. It is very appropriate to describe him as "a New Zealand Australian
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part). However, there still needs to be a brief mention in the lead, if anything, to give context to the
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where it says "Born in New Zealand, Urban told us he now has dual American-Australian citizenship."
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He is married to Nicole Kidman, but it is not listed in his info box. Can somebody change this?
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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1306:) that his birth name was in fact "Urbahn". Does anyone have sourcing that disagrees?
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110706123407/http://abccountry.net.au/news/sing-like-slim
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likely you are someone well-versed in a variety of styles and perfected that one.
1586:'s comments, I know significantly prefer option 3 to 5, but still prefer 5 to 1.
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the "Country Airplay chart", and that one of his songs is one of the biggest
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That is a fairly bizarre but ultimately sensibly-steered discussion cited by
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1181:, I am curious to know, do you consider the mention of Keith Urban on the
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1152:. Not sure how another WikiProject/BLP noticeboard discussion would go.
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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http://www.country935.ca/2013/01/11/keith-urban-posed-for-playgirl/
644:). Most editors consider the genre classification consistent with
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
1373:, thanks for catching this – it was indeed a mistaken revert. —
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for example is described as "an American country music singer".
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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OK with me. The absence of Edit summaries didn't help.
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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all of whom reverted this change in the past few days.
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which correctly describes his birth location. I think
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The following discussion is an archived record of a
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No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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887:'s lead starts with "an American country singer".
824:by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message
658:"singer well-known for his work in country music"
1011:First and foremost, I said genre doesn't belong
116:http://www.rte.ie/ten/2011/1123/thevoiceaus.html
546:This message was posted before February 2018.
436:This message was posted before February 2018.
272:This message was posted before February 2018.
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1451:A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
660:) appears to be a satisfactory resolution. —
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640:of the article (not to be confused with the
538:http://abccountry.net.au/news/sing-like-slim
1851:per the reasons I have outlined above, per
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877:appears to have no controversy whatsover
1896:- he’s not labelling himself NZ, (e.g.
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1487:New Zealand-born Australian-American
685:The following discussion is closed.
845:Of course mention genre in the lead
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871:If you take a look at this site's
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757:as described in reliable sources
520:. Please take a moment to review
384:. Please take a moment to review
214:. Please take a moment to review
86:. Please take a moment to review
1972:The discussion above is closed.
1290:The discussion above is closed.
1183:List of country music performers
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873:List of country music performers
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1431:RFC on nationality in the lead
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625:MENTION GENRE IN LEAD SECTION
619:RFC about country in the lead
358:09:08, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
338:02:05, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
2015:01:59, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
1299:Birth Name - Urban or Urbahn
614:01:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
198:13:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
1950:18:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
1936:05:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
1910:23:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
1866:15:39, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
1700:21:17, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
1495:New Zealand-born Australian
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1723:05:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
1669:23:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
1639:18:19, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
1578:00:39, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
1543:00:39, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
1285:19:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
1260:14:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
1226:03:46, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
1201:03:05, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
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1047:23:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
1007:21:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
968:00:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
938:22:37, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
820:If you reply here, please
678:07:15, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
577:(last update: 5 June 2024)
513:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
467:(last update: 5 June 2024)
377:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
303:(last update: 5 June 2024)
232:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
207:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
163:(last update: 5 June 2024)
104:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
79:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1402:Thank you for verifying!
902:WikiProject Country Music
875:, a page whose existence
840:06:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
1974:Please do not modify it.
1549:Strong oppose option 1,
1445:Please do not modify it.
1292:Please do not modify it.
687:Please do not modify it.
504:19:16, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
509:External links modified
373:External links modified
203:External links modified
75:External links modified
1645:User:Hamsterlopithecus
654:Special:Diff/888962457
1843:To clarify I support
369:He is also a singer.
42:of past discussions.
558:regular verification
448:regular verification
284:regular verification
218:. If necessary, add
144:regular verification
129:to let others know.
90:. If necessary, add
1503:Australian-American
1440:request for comment
1014:in opening sentence
548:After February 2018
438:After February 2018
274:After February 2018
253:parameter below to
134:After February 2018
125:parameter below to
1804:see what I've done
1663:see what I've done
1602:see what I've done
1572:see what I've done
1537:see what I've done
1136:see what I've done
1072:see what I've done
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744:see what I've done
714:see what I've done
688:
602:InternetArchiveBot
553:InternetArchiveBot
492:InternetArchiveBot
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1692:Hamsterlopithecus
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1853:MOS:LEADBIO
1584:Markbassett
881:Patsy Cline
759:Atlantic306
518:Keith Urban
382:Keith Urban
348:Australian?
265:Sourcecheck
212:Keith Urban
84:Keith Urban
36:This is an
1855:. Regards
1821:Idris Elba
1798:talk to me
1715:Jurisdicta
1679:User:JDDJS
1657:talk to me
1619:Early Life
1596:talk to me
1566:talk to me
1531:talk to me
1511:Australian
1130:talk to me
1066:talk to me
1024:WP:Be bold
995:talk to me
830:talk to me
775:Britannica
738:talk to me
708:talk to me
665:Newslinger
609:Report bug
499:Report bug
1981:No spouse
1375:Blablubbs
1332:Blablubbs
911:Billboard
592:this tool
585:this tool
482:this tool
475:this tool
318:this tool
311:this tool
178:this tool
171:this tool
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
1955:Option 5
1875:section.
1849:Option 1
1845:Option 3
1759:MOS:LEAD
1684:Option 1
1627:Option 1
1516:Option 5
1508:Option 4
1500:Option 3
1492:Option 2
1484:Option 1
1457:Option 3
1268:SNUGGUMS
1240:SNUGGUMS
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834:My edits
631:mention
598:Cheers.—
488:Cheers.—
324:Cheers.—
222:cbignore
184:Cheers.—
94:cbignore
1734:IMO. ~
1732:WP:NPOV
1623:Infobox
1342:, and
906:country
822:ping me
635:in the
522:my edit
386:my edit
334::Online
251:checked
216:my edit
194::Online
123:checked
88:my edit
39:archive
1933:(talk)
1582:After
1420:(talk)
1390:HiLo48
1336:HiLo48
945:Singer
772:Singer
259:failed
230:nobots
102:nobots
1959:FMSky
1921:1992.
1847:then
1792:JDDJS
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255:true
127:true
1957:---
1925:Air
1745:333
1738:HAL
1415:Fir
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838:@
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566:RfC
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