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Talk:Kharal

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819:
sources mentioning them as Jats relate to Mirza Sahiban however that is because that's what the Kharrals are most known for and the references in the introduction are just placeholders that give general summary to hold article in place. Not dissimilar to quoting British sources by other authors for Rajput origin. However, the most direct and reliable source is the one of Iftekhar Ahmed and that also mentions that the Kharrals are Jats and that Rajput origin is fabricated however it doesnt need to be cited in introductory sentence. Now the 2 sources you mentioned I removed, like I said are caste based pseudo-historians, are therefore not reliable and you can check edit history of the various Punjabi tribes the sources have been removed whenever detected. The reason is because they are basically regurgitating what the British sources say but adding a caste angle to them and have no actual qualifications in the subject.
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general rule on Knowledge write Jat and Rajput. You keep saying some sources say they are Jat but they are actually not. You cannot say that without a proper reference. And for instance even if you had a reference to prove this you would say: 'X author is of the opinion that the term Jat is a general term and they are actually Just Rajputs'. You would still absolutely not remove Jat from the lead. However, to this topic the dual Jat/Rajput tribes has been a discussion in academic circles for a while now and there is no consensus as to why certain tribes claim to be both. Some argue that aborignal tribes fabricate Rajput ancestory, some say more dominant tribes claim Rajput ancestory, some say it is related to geography, and some consider Jats to be an elactic socail grouping agricultuaral tribes with no ethnic basis....
1106:"The Kharrals were Rajputs. Their ancestor was Raja a Karan of Hastinapur. His descendant Bhupa left that place and came to Uch, where he and his son Kharral were converted by Makhdum Jahania Shah. From Uch the Kharrals spread over the country about the Ravi. They appear to have settled first in the Sandal Bar (Lyallpur District), no doubt with a view to having plenty of pasture for their cattle. Ranjit Singh is said to have induced or compelled them to move to villages nearer to the river, possibly with a view to exercising more effective control over them." 849:
area where all this story played out, the perspective on Mirza starts changing as people call him a Kharal. Most so called reliable sources authors which have mostly not done any field research work have never gone to the real stage area and researched practically. I have myself seen the old ancestral records (in custody of Musalis and kamis) of Kharals of Doanabad and Pindi Isa and have found none information about Mirza and his father. The leader of Doanabad Kharals at the moment of the story being played out was Rai Rahmoo who didn't had any son as Mirza.
21: 128: 110: 79: 213: 192: 718:. This is the reason why almost none of the articles on Punjabi tribe on Knowledge have references of the the British Raj sources. Even if I don't remove the British Raj sources or the pseudo-historian citations of yours in 6 months to maybe an year other editors will because we just don't cite them in articles. Also, I am not against you, in fact I had to learn this as well! 223: 1120:
I think you don't much knowledge about king karna which you are referring rajput are kshatriya and karna was suryaputra demi god dhillon clan who estab and rulled delhi for 4000 years were also considered as jat and they also claim descendants from king karna on the other hand kharal was mentioned as
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source 8 is modern source 9 is modern source 10 is modern source 11 is modern source 12 is a cencus report of 1911. source 13 is about all Punjabi casts source 14 is a scientific report on Indians differentiating between how health and body features change and vary in different castes and areas.
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all of the lead sources did not for instance mention the Kharals are jats the rest of the article contains numerous sources that do. However, all of the lead sources used to mention the Kharals as jats say that kharals are Jats except for one which I will confirm afer this. The Kharals (atleast many)
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To the best of my knowledge, it seems that no medieval or premodern source ever describes or identifies the 'Kharals' as 'Rajputs'. In fact, neither Pilu, nor Waris Shah, nor Ganesh Das Wadera, nor any of the administrators and ministers (wazirs) in the Mughal court ever put 'Kharal' and 'Rajput' in
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How can you say Iftikhar Ahmed's book is more reliable does he give some evidence. none! •(For extra information) Do you know well how can you know, after practical field research (in the nearby area only) you can find that Mirza was a Sahi as elders say but as you move further away from the actual
1193:
Do you think this is reliable source aren't you traping inside multipe connection to any random account of genelogy first your confronting kharal are descendants from king karna of hustinapur but now you believe kharal from punwar rajput descents but actually the reality is different because I have
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seem to have developed a tendency of adopting an identity distinct from the remainder of Punjab during colonial rule. This was actually strategically encouraged by British ethnographers who aimed to drive recruitment from the fringes rather than the centre (the latter being largely pro-Ranjit Singh
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If you have done it by mistake ok but be careful the other time. If you have some difficulty with the upper mentioned sources please tell me before removing them. These sources were found by me after days of work and research and why had written you the Amr Nath Bali writing in the second paragraph
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I do not know about the exact details about this, just talking from those colonial sources and what our elders told us. We do not deny that some of our sub-clans like the Khars hold Jat status in terms of their profession, but we are given the title Rai Kharal (title held by Rajputs). You might be
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Easiest Consensus meaning is if a senior editor sees the citation of British Raj sources they remove them and that they have discussed the issue on multiple talk pages. If you do see British Raj sources being quoted alone let me know I can remove them or you can do it yourself. I agree half of the
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source 1 : can't access the full article source 2 : doesn't say Kharals are Jatts source 3 : doesn't say Kharals are Jatts, says Mirza was epitome of Jat values but as you know Jatts are all those who are agriculturalists, no direct saying that Kharals are Jatts. source 4 : didn't said Kharals are
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The Kharals in discussion here are those of the Rechnau Doab (one example being Toba Tek Singh) - where they are most numerous and historically prominent, almost all other than a few newly-political families in Kamalia identify as Jatt. The people around them also refer to them as "Jaangli Jatt"
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1. British era colonial sources are almost never cited when dealing with Punjabi tribes by the concensus of senior editors unless with a modern academic source backing the colonial one, You cited: Report on the Revised Settlement of the Jhang District of the Punjab, Notes on the Pathans of the
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Also – an analysis of premodern sources suggests that Jat was NOT the "elastic designator" that modern liberal and Hindutva revisionist historians often misconstrue it to be. The preeminent use of the word Jat is in fact as an ethnocultural/tribal designator in the Mughal provinces of Lahore,
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Look you can keep deleting refs, we can only assume good faith so many times. And you also cannot insert your POV or peersonal expertise on the Kharals into the article you have to stick strictly to the sources. If one source identifies a Punjabi tribe as Jat while the other as Rajput. We as a
1056:
Why you are providing fake genelogy as per your information kharal are the clan of agnikul descendant of king karna but karna was not considered as kshatriya he is demigod who's father is surya dev and mother was kunti , by the way dhillon also claim descendants from karna even mutiny record
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And please try to find some good sources regarding Kharals as Jatts as all of the current sources are either about Mirza Sahiban or they have just discussed it to give example. I think wiki community should have consensus on sourcese which are directly for the mentioned topic or matter.
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Sir can you clear a doubt arise for me, in the conflict between britisher and Rai Ahmed kharal they simply mentioned him as jat under mutiny record but through the period of time (near19th century they start calling themselves with rajput tittle what is the reason for it
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Mr Nawabmalhi I gave proper sourcing of British respected Historians and books of undeniable factuality while you are giving sources which are not even about Kharals. Please stop this vandalism. I gave 10 sources for Kharals being Rajputs which all directly said that.
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source 15 is a British report on Jhang district people. source 16 is the whole gazeeter of Punjab source 17 is modern source 18 is modern (1960s) source 19 is modern source 20 is the writing of H.A Rose whose Important work is undeniably a treasure for us.
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I understand but how they are related to rajput I am ready to give you source Secretary of Chief Commissioner of Panjab wrote a letter to Government of British India about the Googaira Mutiny and mentioned Rebel tribes Kharal,Fatwana and Kathia are of Jatt
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20th Century British colonial ethnologist H. A Rose, who writes that the Kharals would appear to be a true Rajput tribe, though a very considerable portion of them are styled Jat. (A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West frontier
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Also the new sources you added are very good in strengthening article however when you are free please add the page numbers as well. Also last thing the origin theories should not be discussed in the introduction. Rather in the body.
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Even though there are sub-clans that moved from the north of Punjab to the south (e.g. Khar) who claim Jat status, that doesn't mean they are Jat by origin, as they 'changed' caste to assimilate. I am a Kharal from Pind Dadan Khan.
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Secondly almost all of the sources you have quoted in your most recent edit cannot even be used on wikipedia. Assuming good faith and since you are a new user, I will go through each of the ones that I am going to remove:
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Thirdly, you absolutely cannot add your interpretations or knowledge of any information without a adequate source. You cannot quote blogspots or other wikis. You cannot also not remove other sources like you were doing
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Pathan Recruiting District, Scientific Memoirs by Officers of the Medical and Sanitary Departments..., Panjab Castes, A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab..... Indian census all of these will be removed.
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Of the 14 sources mentioned with Kharals origin as Rajputs 7 are modern while 7 are past historical texts of British. So how could you say that there is no support of British colonial records with Modern writings.
892:"By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef." (Kharal and Berkley). 515:. What the sources say is that some Kharral identify as Jatts others as Rajputs, you are not allowed to remove refffed material nor are you allowed to spin your own narrative not found in the sources, Thank you. -- 1153:
Bro rajput is regional tittle adopted by dominant tribe from particular area and second thing is khokhar is just am independent tribe which hold jat status ,but I don't know much about of gakkhars or janjua
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It's right that majority of Kharal family is attached with agricultural due to royal thinking. Now Kharal family taking interest in modern word as well as modern business. ′Rai Shakir Ul Hassan Kharal′
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By caste, the Kharals are Rajput of the Agni-Kula descent. They link up their genealogy with Karan, a chivalrous character from Ramayana and were converted by Makhdoom Jahanian Shah Shareef. (Kharal and
1028:
I understand what you are talking about but there are numerous mentions of Kharals as Rajputs by origin. Confusion might be due that they claim Jat in terms of agricultural profession, not by caste.
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3. Please add the page # for the sources you cite, Son Preference: Sex Selection, Gender and Culture in South Asia is an excellent source please add the page number as soon as you have some time.
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proof Secretary of Chief Commissioner of Panjab wrote a letter to Government of British India about the Googaira Mutiny and mentioned Rebel tribes Rai Ahmed khan Kharal are of Jatt lineage.
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2. You cited 2 works of Caste based pseudo Historians: Origins and History of Jats... and The Rajputs: History, Clans, Culture, and Nobility these are also by concensus not to be cited.
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Jatt source 5 : not even Kharal word used. source 6 : the article is not even about kharals or any of Punjab castes source 7: can't access full article meaning no evidence available.
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If a sub-clan of the Bajwa or Gondal tribe (which are Jat by caste) settle in the north Punjab, Pakistan, further claiming Rajput status. Would that make them Rajput? Answer is, no.
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Kharals are Rajput not Jatt they are Jatt in the sense that they are agriculturalists and all agriculturalists in Punjab are called Jatts but as professionally not because of caste.
1174:
This genealogy record (it is colonial) being sourced by Jatland (Jat site) states that Rai Ahmad Khan's lineage is from Punwar, an ancient Rajput clan. What do you think about this?
981:
i just want to clear there was no kharal rajput even in early contemporary records they were just mentioned as jat and later in timeline they continuosly start using rajput tittle
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Adding mention of Jats to the article does not imply that Kharals originated from Jats, just that many Jats claim to be Kharals today, even if the tribe was originally Rajput.
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4. The sahiwal Municipal corporation seems to have copied an older wikipedia version of the Kharal article. And it also calls the Kharals Jats in the same page if you go below.
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If you are an old user (which is problematic as that means you are using a sock) it should mean that you know better than to add British colonial era sources which has been a
1139:
right that alot of tribes who were of Jat status became Rajput, which includes Kharals. Does that mean the Gakhars, Khokhars and Janjuas are Jat who became Rajput later?
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can be cited in the caste-related article. So while editing, please keep this in view and select post-independence references. Thanks in advance for understanding this.
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identifying as Jats does not negate your belief of their "Rajputness". Rather we are just following normative procedure and puritanically sticking to the sources. --
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I say stop this vandalism and now don't undo my changes I have added comment of H.A Rose on Kharals. Its importance is undeniable, its reliability is unrejectable.
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Fourthy, I dont know why you are removing their traditionally pastoral references both of which are reliable and largely increase the credibility of the article.
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To quote colonial gazetteers and the like authored by individuals who would never be allowed the position of a clerk back in Britain doesn't help the case.
530:
There are 7 sources attached with the declaration that Kharals are Jatts in first paragraph. I didn't found a single sentence saying Kharals are Jatts.
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There are numerous reports that mention Kharals are of Rajput status. It was stated that some of them styled as Jats after moving towards the south.
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Also, your region - Jhelum, Chakwal, Bhimber, - basically the regions once referred to as "the country of the Gakhars" or the "extensions of Jammu"
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And how to find if wiki community has consensus on something. And I have old British era colonial records mentioned on many other articles/pages.
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please stop this vandalism by removing sourcese I add, I have not removed any of yours sources which are even not about tribal information.
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Explain why you removed mention of Kharals also being a Jat clan from the article. Kharals being Jats is supported by reliable sources.
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Not fake, they are sourced. More sources (even government census) state that Kharal are rajput but some sub-clans adopted Jat title.
1057:
considered kharal tribe as jat because rajput is regional tittle adopted by many caste through the process of rajputisation thankyou
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https://web.archive.org/web/20150715010931/http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/national/08-May-2006/they-hate-love-legend-mirza-sahiban
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Alright. I think we should just remove Jaati affiliation in the introduction and let the history and description part address that.
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As such I am going to have to remove them again, I hope you think critically of what I have said and reread my previous comment. --
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we only stick to the sources we have on Knowledge. Furthermore, the references you are citing are beyond unreliable. See the
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These are the sources I have attached to prove Kharals as Rajputs. Check how many are modern and how many are not.
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Even on this page, Senior editors(now admin) such as Sitush have removed British colonial sources whenever added
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Ok I will not cite British colonial era sources but why did you remove the modern sources such as the books:-
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F. B. Wace and F. O. Bourne, authors of the Montgomery Gazetteer 1933 edition describe the tribe as follows:
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Zaroor. By caste, we are Rajput but because of some our agricultural traditions, we are referred to as Jat.
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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Why did you delete infobox? If you don't mind me asking, what is your zaat and qabila/biradari? Thanks.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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I have no views regarding whether Kharals are Rajputs or Jats. I only want to inform that in no case
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the same sentence, HOWEVER, 'Kharal' and 'Jat' do appear in the same sentence on numerous occasions.
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2.Origins and History of Jats and Other Allied Nomadic Tribes of India: 900 B.C.-1947 A.D.(2008).
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/national/08-May-2006/they-hate-love-legend-mirza-sahiban
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Please recheck all things and then talk to me with your so called reliable sources.
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These are just some and there are much more. This has been discussed in the page.
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jat in lots of reliable source you need to do more research on topic thank you.@
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Kharal tribal lived all over the Pakistan. majority of this tribal live in
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Hello. Kharals are Rajput by descent, which is supported by many sources.
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it deserves its place in first paragraph as its about their origin.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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And I am not new I have a new user for a specific reason.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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Nice to meet you to. I am a Kharal from Pind Dadan Khan.
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1. Rajputs: History, Clans, Culture and Nobility.(2005)
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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
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i am bhinder jat from haryana india nice to meet you
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1074: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1064: 1060: 1055: 1054: 1053: 1049: 1045: 1041: 1038: 1034: 1030: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1021: 1017: 1014: 1009: 1008: 1007: 1003: 999: 995: 994: 993: 992: 988: 984: 976: 970: 966: 962: 957: 953: 949: 947: 943: 939: 934: 930: 927: 925: 921: 917: 913: 909: 908: 907: 903: 899: 894: 891: 888: 887: 886: 885: 881: 877: 873: 865: 862: 858: 854: 850: 842: 838: 834: 829: 828: 827: 826: 815: 810: 809: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 803: 799: 795: 790: 789: 785: 781: 775: 774: 770: 766: 761: 757: 754: 751: 742: 738: 734: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 725: 717: 713: 707: 702: 701: 700: 699: 698: 697: 696: 695: 691: 687: 681: 677: 673: 669: 666: 663: 659: 655: 652: 651: 647: 643: 633: 629: 625: 620: 616: 615: 614: 613: 607: 606: 605: 604: 597: 596: 595: 594: 586: 583: 580: 576: 575: 572: 571: 570: 569: 560: 555: 554: 553: 552: 550: 546: 542: 538: 535: 531: 526: 522: 518: 514: 510: 505: 504: 500: 496: 488: 486: 485: 481: 477: 469: 465: 461: 457: 453: 452: 451: 448: 444: 440: 436: 428: 426: 425: 420: 415: 414: 403: 399: 396: 392: 391: 390: 383: 377: 373: 369: 365: 359: 354: 350: 344: 340: 336: 329: 325: 321: 320: 319: 317: 313: 309: 304: 298: 283: 279: 273: 270: 269: 266: 249: 248: 243: 239: 238: 230: 219: 217: 214: 210: 209: 205: 199: 196: 193: 189: 176: 170: 167: 166: 163: 146: 142: 138: 137: 132: 129: 125: 124: 120: 117: 114: 111: 107: 102: 98: 92: 84: 80: 75: 74: 67: 65: 61: 57: 53: 48: 46: 42: 38: 34: 30: 25: 22: 18: 17: 1292:Wikiwala Jat 1252:Wikiwala Jat 1196:Wikiwala Jat 1172:Wikiwala Jat 1156:Wikiwala Jat 1126:Wikiwala Jat 1059:Wikiwala Jat 1016:Wikiwala Jat 983:Wikiwala Jat 980: 951: 916:ThethPunjabi 876:ThethPunjabi 869: 847: 791: 776: 762: 758: 755: 752: 749: 683: 667: 664: 660: 656: 653: 638: 618: 536: 532: 528: 492: 473: 434: 432: 410: 407: 382:source check 361: 355: 342: 338: 334: 332: 305: 302: 277: 247:project page 245: 235: 229:India portal 150:Anthroponymy 134: 116:Anthroponymy 97:WikiProjects 49: 26: 476:36.255.45.5 349:Sourcecheck 41:Afghanistan 1333:Categories 1300:Sutyarashi 1032:province). 833:Nawabmalhi 733:Nawabmalhi 624:Nawabmalhi 517:Nawabmalhi 474:Hi hassan 419:Report bug 87:Stub-class 45:designated 1036:Berkley). 1011:lineage.@ 712:consensus 470:Hi hassan 439:Raisufian 402:this tool 395:this tool 58:, or any 617:Lastly, 408:Cheers.— 37:Pakistan 1314:Kharal1 1288:Kharal1 1266:Kharal1 1238:Kharal1 1216:Kharal1 1181:Kharal1 1141:Kharal1 1123:Kharal1 1108:Kharal1 1073:Kharal1 1044:Kharal1 1013:Kharal1 998:Kharal1 912:Kharal1 898:Kharal1 872:Kharal1 619:even if 599:before. 335:checked 312:my edit 280:on the 955:rule). 509:wp:NOR 435:Punjab 343:failed 308:Kharal 93:scale. 39:, and 513:wp:RS 253:India 242:India 198:India 33:India 1318:talk 1304:talk 1270:talk 1256:talk 1242:talk 1220:talk 1200:talk 1185:talk 1160:talk 1145:talk 1130:talk 1112:talk 1092:talk 1077:talk 1063:talk 1048:talk 1020:talk 1002:talk 987:talk 965:talk 942:talk 920:talk 902:talk 880:talk 857:talk 837:talk 798:talk 784:talk 769:talk 737:talk 690:talk 676:talk 646:talk 628:talk 545:talk 521:talk 499:talk 480:talk 460:talk 443:talk 339:true 27:The 376:RfC 353:). 341:or 326:to 272:Low 169:??? 1335:: 1320:) 1306:) 1272:) 1258:) 1244:) 1222:) 1202:) 1187:) 1162:) 1147:) 1132:) 1114:) 1094:) 1079:) 1065:) 1050:) 1022:) 1004:) 989:) 967:) 944:) 922:) 904:) 882:) 859:) 839:) 831:-- 800:) 786:) 771:) 739:) 692:) 678:) 648:) 630:) 547:) 523:) 501:) 482:) 462:) 445:) 389:. 384:}} 380:{{ 351:}} 347:{{ 35:, 1316:( 1302:( 1290:@ 1286:@ 1268:( 1254:( 1240:( 1218:( 1198:( 1183:( 1170:@ 1158:( 1143:( 1128:( 1110:( 1090:( 1075:( 1061:( 1046:( 1018:( 1000:( 985:( 963:( 940:( 918:( 910:@ 900:( 878:( 870:@ 855:( 835:( 816:: 812:@ 796:( 782:( 767:( 735:( 708:: 704:@ 688:( 674:( 644:( 626:( 561:: 557:@ 543:( 519:( 497:( 478:( 458:( 441:( 421:) 417:( 404:. 397:. 284:. 250:. 177:. 99::

Index


contentious topics
India
Pakistan
Afghanistan
designated
purpose of Knowledge
standards of behaviour
normal editorial process
contentious topics procedures

content assessment
WikiProjects
WikiProject icon
Anthroponymy
WikiProject icon
WikiProject Anthroponymy
the study of people's names
the discussion
???
project's importance scale
WikiProject icon
India
WikiProject icon
India portal
WikiProject India
India
project page
Low
project's importance scale

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