Talk:Kingston University/Archive 1

1118:, which is apparently the officially published and full conclusions of the Employment Tribunal Appeal that you cite. The conclusion of the tribunal is that "75. In our judgment (by a majority) the Employment Tribunal in the present case was right to permit Mrs Dogherty to put in evidence her transcriptions of the “open hearing” parts of the proceedings she attended but (in our unanimous view) it erred in law in not debarring Mrs Dogherty from making use of her recording and transcription of the Panel’s private deliberations (as appearing, for example, at pages 181 – 201 of the Supplementary Appeal Bundle placed before us). Accordingly, we allow the appeal only to the extent of making that direction which the Tribunal should itself have made namely that: “Mrs Dogherty may not adduce in evidence in support of her claim the transcripts of the private deliberations of the panel members or any evidence derived from them.” The difference between a tea-break and official deliberations may produce different results, but that will be decided by the tribunal and the courts. Once it has been decided, and the results independently reported, then this may become something that could justifiably be posted on a Knowledge page. 1045:

demands that all copies, not just a copy, of the evidence be turned over under penalty of criminal prosecution and civil costs. Sounds like an attempt to bury important damaging and embarrasing evidence in a court case to me. Surely, that can't be legal. It would seem to me that if a letter(s) come from one of the parties (Beaton) and there is no contentiousness over whether or not the letters are authentic, then there is no problem with reliability of information. So to summarize, we do have a situation where someone has been charged with witness intimidation by a court (a third party), albeit ultimately the case was dismissed on a technicality. Then we have a situation where a higher legal authority (the solicitor general, another reliable third party) has offerred a dissenting view of the criminality of the alleged offence. I don't see any problem with the spirit of Knowledge policy, despite the fact that no mainstream newspaper has yet reported on this story. The origin of the letters and solicitor general opinion, which is signed, seems to me to be immaterial in this particular circumstance. I'd say let the entry in.

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have nothing to do with Kingston, and therefore have no worries about their reputation, but judging from the information that has been posted here, the employment tribunal found for the University, the Crown Prosecution Service found for the University, and the ongoing case has yet to be decided and has failed to interest anybody in the media except the plaintiff himself. The postings here come close to breaching the Knowledge rules against autobiography, have little notability (person takes University to court and loses is hardly news), and are all based on self-penned sources that are certainly not from a neutral point of view. Even the legal document is carefully edited so that the names of those involved, except for those against whom the action is taken, have been deleted. If the University loses the case and this is published in neutral media (as I'm sure it would be), then this could be added to the Knowledge article. At the moment, however, I don't think it should be here.

1093:. In this case, which was different from the one involving Kingston University in that in the latter, there were no deliberations taking place -- it was an informal tea break, hence matters of following agreed procedure covered in Amwell v Dogherty do not apply. In any event, there was clearly no criminal conduct by the employees in either case and Mr Beaton, as confirmed by the Magistrates' Court, was not acting to prevent or in response to a criminal act. Else the Court would not have found a basis to charge Beaton with a crime. Glasgow's interpretation of the law does not apply in this instance and Kingston's attempts at doing so are patently misconceived. Furthermore, by virtue of the fact that the University's letters are included in the site, the issue at hand is presented even handedly (both side's points of view are expressed quite openly) 829:

summons after hearing preliminary evidence? There is no issue of "arguments" being aired here -- rather this is a neutral reporting of facts -- Mr Beaton was, in fact, charged with witness intimidation. Mr Beaton, in fact, sent a series of threatening letters (the source provides actual copies of the letters). The source says that the CPS dropped the case on a technicality. The source says that the Solicitor General wrote that the acts described would be a crime under another statute (supported by a copy of the letter from the Solicitor General). What more proof could one possibly want? There is no assertion of guilt here, mind you. There is only an assertion of facts about what has happened.

1075:). If or when a third-party source reports on this conflict and court case, it would seem likely that they would name both sides, and mention both arguments. The 'Sir Peter Scott' website, obviously written by the complainant or somebody very close to him, does not do this - except by accident - and its partisan and unreliable nature precludes its use as a source on Knowledge. Once again, I would suggest that we wait for the court case to reach its conclusion. If the court rules against the University then that would almost certainly be reported by the mainstream media, and that would provide neutral, verifiable, third-party sources that could be used in a Knowledge article. 977:

evidence. As stated previously, these accusations are, at the least, no different than accusations lodged against Michael Jackson, which were fully explored on the Knowledge page for him, notwithstanding the fact that documentary evidence was not presented of such allegations, and notwithstanding the fact that such allegations were later proven untrue by a jury. You appear to have a double standard here, which is quite puzzling to me. I simply ask that the facts as they are be put forward. As the story unfolds, of course, further support will be provided, including mainstream press articles, which I understand are in progress.

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to constitute a verifiable source? We are talking about the words of the defendant here in black and white. The article does NOT state that the accusations have been proven, however -- it merely says that the allegations were made and that a court found substance to issue an indictment, with a further finding by the Solicitor General. These are facts. The information is highly relevant, as this is a matter of high public interest. There are many examples of entries on Knowledge where allegations are referred to, even when a case has been decided in favour of the accused. One such example is the entry for Michael Jackson

2166:"The independent investigator's high-level involvement with this org is a further example of the University's connection with this anti-Semitic organization, and is therefore relevant." This person is only tangentially linked to the university as he was once employed as an investigator on another issue. This has no link (backed by reliable sources) to the paragraph in question. The only source that is used to link the two cases is an interview with Howard Fredrics, definitely not reliable when it comes to Kingston given his disagreements with the university. We have to stick with 1461: 1109:

open-access media do not represent a third-party, reliable, verifiable source (even if it includes some very carefully selected aspects of the other side's position) and neither does it prove notability. Others may disagree with me, but my own position is that media report(s) of a court case that went against the University would justify inclusion of this information (in measured terms) on this Knowledge page, but only after the court has made a decision against the University and reliable third-party sources have reported this (as I'm sure they would).

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referred to by the author as harm to the principles of free speech caused by threats against the web hosting company, who by the way, refused to cave into the threats, consistent with academic principles of free speech and expression. In any event, i refer back to my additional source listing provided above, which supports the accuracy of the information in the entry. If you would like this additional source added, I woudl be happy to agree to that. I would, otherwise, like third party mediation of this dispute. How should we begin?

995:. If you have concerns regarding the Michael Jackson article, take it to that talk page. Those allegations were covered in third party reliable sources and form a key-part in understanding Michael Jackson and his profile. That cannot be said for your allegations, coupled with the point that they haven't been proven or disproven. Until you have the reliable sources, the information cannot be reinserted into the article. I am being reasonable and there is no double standard; everyone has to 934:

documentary evidence contained on the website www.sirpeterscott.com) in the sending of threatening letters to witnesses to an Employment Tribunal makes this information highly noteworthy, regardless of where the primary source materials are posted, that is unless you doubt their authenticity Perhaps you have a different view towards university officials as important public figures, in this case made more so by virtue of the fact that the Vice Chancellor is recently knighted.

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paragraph on tribunal fees is not suggesting relationship between workplace stress and tribunal legal fees. Since the same paragraph discusses prior Tribunal cases, it is sensible to locate this paragraph on legal fees in the same place. If there is a separate section on Employment Tribunal Cases, where all materials related to such cases could be placed, including the matter of legal fees(i.e. separate from the section on workplace stress), that might solve this issue.

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done. In case you are wondering whether or not I have evidence of the identity of those who have already repeatedly undone parts of this article, I can tell you that your own IP address begins with 130 (I have the complete address, but won't publish it here in order to preserve your privacy). I have a system of checking IP addresses of Knowledge Users and have linked a number of posters in this article with the university employees and contractors.

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Magistrates' court would not have charged the defendant if there was not a prima facie case. Also, There is a documented source -- a letter from Ms Baird, that is publically available online at the website www.sirpeterscott.com. Do you dispute the veracity/authenticity of this letter, which is signed by Ms Baird? You yourself quite fairly edited the text earlier today and found no problem with it. Why did you suddenly do a 180 degree turnaround?

2516:.Whether or not you agree with the conclusions of the survey, it is a published report and is therefore appropriate for a wikipedia entry. You are a reputation manager hired by Kingston University and therefore do not have a neutral point of view. You have been previously cited for NPOV violations -- "Please STOP malicious deleting and disruptive edit. Your personal doubts don't qualify for the reason for deletion." -- as per your USER talk page. 31: 514:. Clearly the case of Kingston University and accusations of witness intimidation have far more credible substance than those lodged against Michael Jackson. This is why I disagree with your decision to remove the information. I would like to avoid a formal appeal, and would hope that your earlier balanced and neutral edits would be a fair and reasonable compromise solution to our disagreement. 2073: 2246:

allowing anti-Semitic extremists to operate on campus -- i.e. the investigator is a proven high level operative within Hizb ut Tahrir. The fact of his having been hired by the University belies the disclaimers made by the University in response to the Newsnight report on Hizb ut Tahrir's activities on campus and is presented in the interest of providing a balanced viewpoint.

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Business-to-Business Marketing Research Centre, Centre for Insolvency Law and Policy, Centre for Working Life Research, Consumer Research Unit, Marketing in New Contexts Group, Small Business Research Centre, Centre for Research in Employment, Skills & Society, Institute of Leadership & Management in Health.

3070:) couldn't possibly have obtained justice as the result of an investigation by any such person, or perhaps that Ali can't have been independent or perhaps all sorts of things. Has any disinterested, independent source (and I discount Fredrics' website and the "Westminster Journal") said as much? If so, where? 1521:

incident; nobody has alleged covert institutional backing for the teachers' message or dissembling by the university; and for that matter nobody has supported the teachers. Hardly a "controversy" and, though regrettable, entirely humdrum. When I think of a university "controversy", I think of stuff like

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The article flatly speaks of "the anti-Semitic Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir". My impression from the article about it in Knowledge (not a reliable source, of course) was that this group is openly against Israel and its policies but that its alleged antisemitism is a matter of dispute. Should this not

1582:

The main issue here is that individual academics at Kingston University are named without any independent verifiable sources that they in any way influenced or contacted the External Examiner in question. It is simply an attempt to discredit the individuals concerned in what appears to be a petty and

1070:

Even if the use of partisan non-verifiable sources (such as the so-called 'Sir Peter Scott' website) was permitted on Knowledge, there are actually two views expressed on that website. Donald Beaton's letter makes it clear that the ex-employee recorded private conversations without permission (there

828:

These points ARE sourced. You just don't happen to agree that a copy of a summons issued after a four hour hearing before three magistrates to determine whether or not there was a prima facie case to be answered is a valid source. I disagree. Is there really any doubt that the court did issue that

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I edited it whilst looking into the substance and looking for sources. In retrospect I should have removed it completely, but I didn't. The accusation is still unproven, it is still an accusation. I could accuse someone and file court papers, it does not make them accurate. This has little to do with

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Kingston University does not tolerate any illegal activity on campus, including the propagation of racial hatred. Until the Newsnight report we had no knowledge of Rizwan Khaliq's alleged activities. We will examine the allegations made by Newsnight, and consider whether any action needs to be taken

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In its survey UCU used the questions from the Health and Safety Executive's (HSE) Management Standards Indicator Tool questionnaire. In its Management Standards Analysis Tool User Manual the HSE sets a minimum of 10 people for a group that is being analysed. UCU chose to triple the minimum number of

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Westminster Journal verifies all information before publication, else they would be subject to defamation action. Publication of an interview on their site is therefore a reliable source. The information about the investigator is directly related to the normative practice by Kingston University of

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I would like to bring it to the attention of the moderators and admins here that a lot of the content in the "Controversies" section has been lifted from this sirpeterscott.com site. For anyone who doesn't know already, the operator of sirpeterscott.com (Howard Fredrics) was recently found guilty of

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Also, are some users suggesting that the document posted on the site, sirpeterscott.com, containing the QAA's full and unabridged report is a forgery? That report is extremely clear in its determination that the allegations made were fully investigated and verified to be true and accurate, and that

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The third part sources include a letter from Vera Baird, QC, MP. Who is more reliable than the solicitor general of the UK on such matters? The evidence itself is available online -- letters from Donald Beaton to the victims are on www.sirpeterscott.com. Are you saying that this is not sufficient

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I'm not keen on the article at all as it stands, the list of courses needs to go, but I've got nothing right now to replace it with. If I get some time I'll do some research and see if I can find something more substantial and more informative to bring it more in line with other University articles,

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Apparently, Kingston University failed to act to stop Hizb ut Tahrir and other extremist activities following the 2003 Newsnight report, having hired an official with apparent ties to Hizb ut Tahrir to perform an investigation and having permitted the Goldsmiths chaplain to call for killing of Jews

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There is no need for the trivia regarding how much they spent on tribunal fees, it is simply recentism and the way it currently reads, we are infering that there is a link. That is completely unacceptable. This article is not the place for every greivance against the university to be aired, nor for

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where they are actually removed from the League Tables for their fraudulent activities. Perhaps when taken together, folks will start to pay attention to the supposedly biased entries on Wikepedia? And any denials to the contrary by Kingston University and their reputation managers will be taken

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I am afraid you are missing the point. We have guidelines and policies for a reason, they need to be followed or don't write at all. The policies have been shown to you, yet you continue to push your agenda. They are personal accusations that aren't noteworthy at the moment. If we had an article on

765:

And with those accusations that people opposing you are all secret employees of Kingston, you're certainly going to be seen as a credible complaintant. That you're grabbing up editors' IPs to determine that we're all kingston employees is probably a violation of some Wiki-POlicy or other; certainly

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I disagree with your statement that sirpeterscott is in "a vendetta" against the University. It appears to me to be posting neutral factual information, primarily documentary evidence, to be interpreted as the reader sees fit. I disagree that the entry is poorly sourced. Furthermore, I offer the

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The section on Anti-Semitic activity includes information about Hizb ut Tahrir's activity at the University. The independent investigator's high-level involvement with this org is a further example of the University's connection with this anti-Semitic organization, and is therefore relevant. The

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would chime into other forms of informal third party mediation, as they have already done. In case you are wondering whether or not I have evidence of the identity of those who have already repeatedly undone parts of this article, I can tell you that your own IP address begins with 130 (I have the

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I'm afraid the point you've missed is that the individuals allegedly involved here are high-level public officials, including the Vice-Chancellor and University Secretary of a public, government controlled university. The apparent criminal involvement (by their own words and admissions -- see the

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I agree with woody as well ,that anything from that site is suspect. The most obvious reason is that it purports to be the man's own site, but the way it talks about him hardly seems to be how one would write about themselves. It goes after people using unfounded, specious allegations and innuendo

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Sounds like a disagreement of opinions to me. Anyway, the other source merely confirms that there is a disagreement. We don't list every disagreement on Knowledge between Universities and their employees. That is not our job. Knowledge is an encyclopedia to hold verifiable information. This is not

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Yes, sirpeterscott is an advocacy organisation that is in a vendetta against the University. It is not an impartial source. I repeat that this is not the right place for this as well. An article on the case would be the right place for it, but as there are no reliable sources, it would be deleted.

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I have removed the reference to the "witness intimidation" and "employment tribunal" sections. The latest source for this data is an apparently autobiographical posting to a site that anybody can post news to, so apparently little more than a blog by the very person this incident is all about. I

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Given the sheer number of reverts on both sides, I have had to protect this article. Given that I had to create the first discussion on this matter, it does not bode well. Please discuss the problems here and come to a consensus. I removed those statements that were not sourced because they breach

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The correct name of this institution is "Kingston University", not "Kingston University, London". The latter, as well as being incorrect, could wrongly give the impression that Kingston University is part of the University of London, which it isn't (cf "Kings College, London", which is part of the

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While I would have no problem with keeping a separate controversies section, it does strike me from reviewing the edit history of this page that the edit warring began and escalated when the elements contained in the controversies section were, in fact, separated from the main body of the page.

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As for mediation, I would ask that we go with a MedCab approach at this point. I am concerned that "contributors" who are, in fact, either employees of or contracted "reputation managers" of Kingston University would chime into other forms of informal third party mediation, as they have already

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I would agree that Knowledge should hold verifiable information. The information in the article (irrespective of Woody's (et al) views on the sirpeterscott website) is verifiable. The article does not draw conclusions -- it states that accusations were made and that charges were leveled by the

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anti-Semitic. Certainly Hizb ut-Tahrir is widely regarded as anti-Semitic. It's also widely regarded as not anti-Semitic. The Newsnight program doesn't directly call it anti-Semitic but it clearly implies as much. (It does say that Kingston University regards it, or an earlier version of it, as

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British-born Asif Hanif, who killed three people in a suicide attack on a bar in Tel Aviv, Israel, in 2003, had shortly before that, attended Kingston University. In 2006, Shakeel Begg, a radical cleric, urged students to wage jihad in Palestine. In a tape-recorded speech obtained by The Sunday

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With due respect, Hoary, Hizb ut Tahrir is widely accepted by the international community as anti-Semitic and is banned from operating in many countries, including Germany and Denmark, because of their anti-Semitic positions. For example, if you read the article that states, "Hizb ut-Tahrir is

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As a crude rule of thumb, for a survey of this nature, a response rate of over 50% could be considered adequate; over 60% desirable, over 70% good and more than 80% very good. With a response rate of less than 50%, the data cannot be considered representative, and should be treated with extreme

1520:

Agree to merge, after radical shortening. Or just deletion. The article fails even to show that there was any flap of more than ephemeral interest. A recording was published of two teachers saying things they shouldn't, the university said straightforwardly that it was genuine and regretted the

1266:

The "Notable Alumni" section looks pretty vandalised to me. Most of the people listed (John Smith, the plumber, anyone?) look far from notable. It may be better to delete the section than let it get into this state in the future. (Apologies to John Smith- he may be very notable in his own way).

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is absent. Similar to how Woody explained, anyone can create a court document, and they can make it say whatever they want. A court document in its pure form contains only the opinions of its creator, without any review or fact-checking. When there is no coverage of this document in a reliable,

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The Guardian, which is a reliable source, says "According to reports of the inquest into her death, Prof Winstanley had been suffering from stress at work." I would accept the statement:"Following her experience with workplace-related stress, Professor Diana Winstanley committed suicide in July

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and policies that govern Knowledge. The paragraph relating to the independent investigator who had links to a banned group does not pertain to the university, it pertains to the individual involved. If he has an article then it should go there, not on this page. The second paragraph related to

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I really don't want to turn this into a detailed debate as to who is right or wrong as far as the court case or employment tribunal is concerned. Knowledge is not a Crystal Ball, and the courts will make their own decisions. My case is simply that a personal website and blog-like postings to

1044:

It certainly appears that these letters did come from Donald Beaton and were written to employees involved in an Employment Tribunal. One of the letters has the signature of Mr Beaton on the bottom. From my reading of the letters, it sure looks like witness intimidation, as Mr Beaton clearly

976:

I have no connection to the sirpeterscott website. I simply came across the site by chance. I have no conflict of interest. I merely seek to prevent those with a conflict of interest from silencing the documented truth, which any reasonable person can plainly see by looking at the available

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I've read the passage you cite. That doesn't sound like a vendetta with the University. Sounds more like the University has unreasonably threatened the web hosting company and the author of the site is responding, quite reasonably to threats against freedom of speech. I interpret the "harm"

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The employment tribunal case is ongoing -- no finding has been made...YET. Vera Baird, MP, QC has found that the CPS was wrong to drop charges because it is illegal to intimidate witnesses to an Employment Tribunal. Victims to crimes, as listed in the summons, have had their names removed to

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In 2006, Shakeel Begg, a radical cleric, urged students to wage jihad in Palestine. In a tape-recorded speech obtained by The Sunday Times, Begg, who is a Muslim chaplain at Goldsmiths College, part of London University, said: “You want to make jihad? Very good . . . Take some money and go to

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The faculty has a number of specialist research units which cover the principal business disciplines. It achieved the highest grade point average of all post-1992 University Business Schools in the 2008 Research Assessment Exercise. These research units include: Asia Business Research Centre,

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Just looking through the argumentation above, I have to agree with Woody. It is debatable whether the information should be included, but what is not debatable is that it must be sourced to a reliable secondary source. Blogs, parties to the case and other generally unreliable sources are not

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Evidence is a court indictment/summons. Source is public record available through any request to the court. I have no connection to the subjects of this article except that I have read the court documents myself, having requested copies of all documents. The evidence is compelling and the

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I have changed the name of the institution within the page, but the name of the page still needs to be changed, and links to the page changed, to reflect the correct name (ie the redirect needs to go the other way, so that the actual page exists at the URL Kingston University, and Kingston

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do almost all your contributions pertain to Kingston University? I don't know. By contrast, you do claim to know why Pandabearcollective's contributions pertain to Kingston University, and you are alleging a conflict of interest. So present the evidence for this conflict of interest on

3030:(Note the absence from this of Kingston.) The source does go on to say that Begg made this speech at Kingston. However, it fails to link the speech to anything else at Kingston (certainly not to any group), just pointing out that Hanif killed three other people and himself three years 124:

It may even be sensible not to have the "Kingston University, London" page at all, even as a redirect, because otherwise it could be argued that all the Universities in London that don't have London in their title should also have one (eg Middlesex, Birkbeck, Brunel, Roehampton etc).

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Documents don't lie. The sites referred to above show all sorts of examples of supporting evidence to back up the information that was removed. Included in the why-diana.org site are links to press reports in the Guardian and Times Higher Education Supplement, among others. The

1549:

Please stop edit warring and discuss your issues here. Given the sheer number of reverts on both sides, I have had to protect this article. Given that I have had to create the first discussion on this matter, it does not bode well. Please discuss the problems here and come to a

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made against a person, not the University. The fact that you are resorting to using peoples IP addresses show that you are clutching at straws. You clearly have an agenda, given that you run the sirpeterscott website. Knowledge is not the place for POV pushers or people with a

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Kingston with its Business School excels while graduating top Business students. A particular course being Business Management, Kingston's turnover of students studying this module is vast and continues a popular subject. Credited as one of the best Business School in UK.

1795:. Also as you can see from the second link, Howard Fredrics' claims of unfair dismissal, wrongful dismissal, public-interest disclosure and disability discrimination against his former employer were all rejected by the London South Employment Tribunal on 6 January 2010. 911:

Well, no, they really have no choice. It's drama surrounding the allegations. It's like saying everything the US supreme court has ever taken the slightest notice of, which should certainly not be the case since anyone can file an appeal with them. The absence of any

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facilities on site such as a wind tunnel, engineering workshops, flight simulator, a flying condition Learjet-200 plus automotive and aeronautical learning resources. Recent development at this site has seen the opening of the Hawker Wing, providing further teaching

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criteria which is a very important polcy. Until the information can be sourced to a reliable source, ie not blogs, it should not be re-added. More to the point, it has little relevance to the University until the University is found guilty in an employment tribunal.

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In October, 2008, data were published by the University College Union (UCU) showing that Kingston University had scored second worst of UK universities surveyed in the UK in staff bullying. It was claimed 15.9% of staff were either 'always' or 'often' bullied

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2005 grievance case against a Jewish academic was found to be the Chair of the Board of Governors of the Iqra Islamic School, Sloughwhich subsequently had its funding suspended following the Daily Telegraph uncovering links at the school with Hizb ut Tahrir

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Vera Baird MP,QC is a reliable third party source, as is Vince Cable, MP, both of whom have "noted" the issues at hand. I think when the Solicitor General of Great Britain and the acting Lib Dem Party Leader bother to acknowledge something, THAT is

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It may be the case that he was at Goldsmiths at the time of the 2006 article. I have no idea where he is at this time, and you may be correct that he is now at Redbridge. I would have no objection to adding a passage to reflect his new place of

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policy which is a non-negotiable policy. It is clearly intended to disparage its subject without evidence. No charges have been brought and as such, it has no relevance here. It is also not sourced properly, it is sourced to a blog, which is not

2230:. Please explain how the material you repeatedly add about an "unrelated" case is required in that section, other than perhaps via some synthesis of your own, of Fredrics, or of the grandly named Islam-obsessed website "Westminster Journal". -- 2765:

Several sections read like a prospectus and not an encyclopedic article, Infact I would say that the majority of the article reads like this, Sneaky marketing weasel words are included for example this section in relation to the campuses;

2104:; by placing this text straight after a paragraph about a stress you are claiming that the two are, linked. We have no way of knowing if this is true and it is therefore not acceptable in this article. Another issue is that it smacks of 1651:

An internal e-mail, forwarded by readers of the BBC News website, The e-mails surrounding a report into Kingston University's music degree were forwarded in the wake of academic whistleblowers claiming that degree standards were being

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are extracts from this recording on the 'Sir Peter Scott' website, so this much is obviously true) and that the University regarded this as illegal (a reading of the law supported by third-party non-partisan sites such as

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There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See

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has received reports from students about fundamentalists operating in at least four UK institutions: Brunel University, west London, Bedfordshire University, Luton, Sheffield Hallam University and Manchester Metropolitan

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The first two of these three are jpegs that anybody could construct in a few minutes, and they appear on an overtly partisan website. That article on the BBC website does indeed assume that they are genuine. It talks of:

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You're right, the section doesn't belong here. If this is a controversy worth the name, then somebody here will be able to come up with articles in the "quality press" on the subject. Till then, this doesn't hack it. --

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It's back now. So called 'reputation managers' are hired by Kingston University to whitewash its image by removing true and accurate info from this site from time to time. Vigilance in restoring the facts is the only

1703:

All of the above sources are from the sirpeterscott.com website which is not an independent, neutral or reliable source. The BBC article is pretty vague in its discussion of the emails and does not name individuals.

1343:

Why was the suicide bomber removed from the notable Alumni list, Notable does not have to mean positive, the article was fully referenced and there can be no claim that a suicide bomber is an regular, normal action.

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the place for this until more sources cover this. In terms of mediation, I have already asked for third party opinions, we wait for them to arrive. Informal third-party mediation is the first step, after that it see

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OK, I've tried to sort out this page and give it a better layout. I don't have time to pull together enough information for all the sections, so I've made them stubs that other people are more than welcome to add to!

865:

I think you miss the point of needing third-party sources. We're not so much asking for verification that the allegations were made (as I don't think anyone here doubts it), but verification that the allegations are

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Then provide a sample here then. The direct links themselves need to be included and it needs to be vociferously cited. It is best to try it out here. As it is, it is libelous to accuse them without any sources.

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Also agreed. It's known that Hizb ut Tahrir tried to organise in a number of UK universities and the university authorities (and usually the students unions too) acted to stop them as soon as they were able to.

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are more single-mindedly devoted to Kingston University. There's only a single edit that isn't obviously about Kingston (it's about music), but if we look in his list of deleted contributions we see activity to

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These indicate the type of examiner that was needed. 'I think that it is important that the Examiner is sympathetic to and familiar with the challenges we face... and would be constructive in their feedback.'"

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In 2003, BBC Television’s ] uncovered the fact that the anti-Semitic Islamic group ] had been operating on the university’s campus. The university released a statement in response to this story stating that:

2450:, only 61 (or 3%) members of staff responded. So simple maths would say that about 11 out of a total of over 2000 staff said they had been 'always' or 'often' bullied, this I don't think is significant. The 702:

about their behaviors, and relies on primary sources, when it uses any at all. Those it does use it uses with it's own framing of the context, which casts doubts on the neutrality of the presentations.

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http://icsurreyonline.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200surreyheadlines/tm_objectid=17609187&method=full&siteid=50101&headline=pressure-of-work-drove-mother-of-two-to-kill-herself-name_page.html

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Taher, Abul and Gadher, Dipesh.[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/news/article634232.ece 'Sunday Times', London, November 12, 2006.

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I think the Report on the Parliamentary Inquiry into Anti-Semitism qualifies as a "quality" source. Please see my further comments in the section below on the removal of the section on anti-Semtism.

916:(if you read the link that keeps getting posted, you'll notice that individuals are not reliable or notability-establishing sources) that mention this continues to call the noteworthiness into doubt. 1583:

vindictive manner. The only possible source for this information appears to be the exceedingly dubious website sirpeterscott.com - the prepetrator of which has already been convicted of harassment.

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Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Knowledge articles

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the Chair of the Board of Governors of the Iqra Islamic School, Sloughwhich subsequently had its funding suspended following the Daily Telegraph uncovering links at the school with Hizb ut Tahrir

1434:; I propose that it be merged into the 'Controversies' section of this one, as it doesn't seem to merit an article in its own right. However, as this article is fully-protected, I cannot add the 2863:

like "excels". Often there is genuine information hidden behind the waffle. Kingston Business School is actually quite well known and it will be possible to find an independent source for that.

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Any such possible conclusions you've reached have not be stated in the article. That would be editor synthesis, in contravention of WP policy. The reader is free to interpret for him/herself.

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banned in Germany for anti-Semitism and covered by the National Union of Students’ policy of “no platform” for racist and fascist views.", you will see confirmation of this as a matter of fact.

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Westminster Journal verifies all information before publication, else they would be subject to defamation action. Publication of an interview on their site is therefore a reliable source.

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I have to disagree with you, Woody on this. I would refer you to the following link which seems like pretty strong evidence of the veracity of claims being made by the previous editor -

1883:

This IP 67.84.177.67 (together with his/her predecessor 87.194.51.176) is starting to fascinate me. Let's look at some quotations. All but the first three are from this very talk page.

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I have attempted to resolve this disagreement by restoring NPOV to disputed sections while also restoring the content of these sections and reorganizing them in a more logical fashion.

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sufficient to include something that could be considered contentious or controversial in an article (with reference to a living person, since this is not technically a BLP article).

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are hired by Kingston University to whitewash its image by removing true and accurate info from this site from time to time. Vigilance in restoring the facts is the only solution.

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The BBC article referenced above goes on to state, "Subsequent e-mails, accepted as AUTHENTIC by the university, then set out a process of finding a replacement external examiner.

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You have no third party, reliable sources. Medcab is for disputes between two editors, the only person who is in a dispute here is you, versus four other editors. We can open a

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The whole article itself needs a lot of cleanup work, removing the advertising/fluff regarding the university as well as integrating the criticisms into the article itself per

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The fact of his having been hired by the University belies the disclaimers made by the University in response to the Newsnight report on Hizb ut Tahrir's activities on campus.

2770:"The Roehampton Vale campus is based on Friars Avenue, on the outskirts of Kingston. Students studying all Engineering courses (except for Civil Engineering) are based here. 832:

Again, I must insist on a MedCab review of the article, especially now that someone (matt_world2004) has chimed in in support of including the information as original posted.

91:

I'd be grateful if you (or whoever) could restrain yourself/ves from putting the graffiti on the Kingston page, but otherwise I'm glad you have managed to get it to work.

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That is the sirpeterscott website which has been discussed ad nauseaum before. It is not reliable, nor is it third party. Please read all of the guidelines stated above.

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Does anyone think multiple sections of this article read like an advertisement for Kingston University, particularly the building, student union and faculties section?

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Note that this does not say something along the lines of "Hizb ut-Tahrir, which it described as anti-Semitic". Instead, there's a clear implication that Hizb ut-Tahrir

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a lot of material about Francois Greeff, much of which seems irrelevant to an article about Kingston University. I'm amazed that the latter lasted half a year; today I

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sources before we can add it in. It was removed a long time ago I believe. It sounds to me like you have calculated the figures yourself, which is frowned upon per the

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spouting racism.) It does single out Kingston University for investigation but does not hint that Hizb ut-Tahrir is more active or salient there than anywhere else.

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With all due respect you have not, you have reverted some of the sections that are contested and that there is no support for other than the IP editors with a clear

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have taken note of something, than neither should we. This is especially important in the case of negative information, and extraordinarily important in the case of

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I should have added that perhaps the title of the section could be changed to "Anti Semitic and Radical Islamic Activity on Campus" in order to clarify the content.

2672:! Yes, I'm well aware of several of the facts that you cite. But I'm also aware of claims from arguably disinterested sources that the group is not antisemitic. -- 2002: 1787:

harassment at Kingston Magistrates’ Court of using this site to harass the Kingston University Vice-Chancellor Sir Peter Scott. Please see the following two links:

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British-born Asif Hanif, who killed three people in a suicide attack on a bar in Tel Aviv, Israel, in 2003, had shortly before that, attended Kingston University.

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protect their status as victims. The way the entry is written is now clearly from a neutral point of view (Thanks, Woody for your assistance in editing it).

2801:

There is also a seperate controversies section which would be better to either being subsumed into the main article (to prevent it being a grevance outlet)

2108:. In the grand scheme of things the fact that they spent a large amount of money on tribunal fees is not important given the wider history of the university. 1946:

I have a system of checking IP addresses of Knowledge Users and have linked a number of posters in this article with the university employees and contractors.

2001:

is most interesting. It's mostly about Kingston University, but there's a fair amount about music and Jews. Indeed, it's curiously close to the interests of

2914:“Should the university be made aware of any concerns about the views expressed at such events, it has the protocols in place to investigate.” <ref: --> 783:

Wouldnt it be more appropriate to list it as accusations of witness intimidation and therefore it can explore both sides of the argument- Matt_world2004

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In 2009, Zafar Ali a university-appointed, allegedly independent investigator in a 2005-2006 staff grievance case against a Jewish academic <ref: -->

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This section of the article is not merely limited to extremist group activity. It includes extremist individuals. I see nothing problematic with that.

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This section of the article is not merely limited to extremist group activity. It includes extremist individuals. I see nothing problematic with that.

312: 2912:“You want to make jihad? Very good . . . Take some money and go to Palestine and fight, fight the terrorists, fight the Zionists.”</blockquote: --> 84:

is this what David Martland was on about in lecture ? Does anyone really know, cause i am just as lost when i leave that lecture as when i went in...

564:. Please restore the entry or I will have no choice but to launch a formal request for third party mediation or other similar method of resolution. 3089:

All mere dribs and drabs designed to give an impression of Islamic evil at Kingston, nothing substantial. And therefore all eminently deletable. --

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I agree, I had edited down the section from the original diatribe whilst I was looking for sources. As it is , the information was in breach of our

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No he isn't. Googling reveals that he's at Redbridge. He's so radical that he's invited to speak in various places (notably a documentary titled

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Why was the 45% of first years can only get halls of residence claim removed, It is a perfectly valid claim based on the numbers of students?

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In 2009, Zafar Ali a university-appointed, allegedly independent investigator in a 2005-2006 staff grievance case against a Jewish academic

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will start to pay attention to the supposedly biased entries on Wikepedia? And any denials to the contrary by Kingston University and their

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Documentary evidence, irrespective of source exists in form of original emails sent by named individuals. Please see the following links:-

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Magistrates Court with further support for criminal charges being put forth in an opinion by Vera Baird written to MP, Vincent Cable.

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Is this truer of "Westminster Journal" than of any other website? If it is, then how? If it is not, then are you not merely saying that

1998: 1248: 1232: 1152: 1094: 978: 935: 894: 833: 728: 615: 565: 521: 472: 425: 336: 254: 132: 999:. This argument has become circular now. Until sources are forthcoming, the information simply cannot be added under wikipedia policy. 2523: 2397: 2253: 2227: 2137: 2013: 2005:. And aside from the harping on "reputation manager", there's that curious Americanism, "folks". The surprise among the IP's edits is 1848: 1840: 1788: 1745: 1689: 1633: 178: 71: 66: 2779:

The term extensive is a weasel subjective marketing word. Several sections of the article has such weasel words and lacks an NPOV

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I removed two paragraphs today in a wider attempt to clean up this article of some of the more egregious violations of the various

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The passage that you are so insistent should be retained within this article says that somebody appointed by the university was

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Note: comments in removed version regarding Diana Winstanley are referenced in the following links referred to on why-diana.org:

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Belies it in whose eyes, IP? Which reliable source describes it in this way, or is this merely your own original synthesis? --

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Another Third-Party source disputes any notion of illegality of such a recording, when it is made in the public interest. See

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No, beacause Knowledge is not the place to list arguments and accusations that are unsourced. Knowledge is an encyclopedia for

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following additional source of information/reference for consideration, consisting of court documents and case law references

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hired by Kingston University, you should not be involved in whitewashing factual information referenced from external sources.

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hired by Kingston University, you should not be involved in whitewashing factual information referenced from external sources.

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which subsequently had its funding suspended following the ] uncovering links at the school with Hizb ut Tahrir <ref: -->

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The notice you quote was put there by an editor who is blocked indf for his disruptive editing and was his attempt to assert

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worker. Are you commercially employed to "correct" true but unflattering material about Universities and other institutions?

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Referring to Begg’s lecture at Kingston, Professor Peter Scott, the university’s vice-chancellor, said: <blockquote: -->

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So in the HSE own words this result "should be treated with extreme caution" and the sentence I think should be removed.

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This site WILL remain until Kingston University agrees to change its behavior and makes amends to those whom it has harmed

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if you still disagree. There's little point opening a mediation case when there's merely one user disagreeing with many.

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http://www.thisishertfordshire.co.uk/search/display.var.901541.0.pressure_of_work_leads_lecturer_to_kill_herself.php

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if you really think it neccessary. The trouble is, there isn't much wiggle room here, BLP and V are core policies.

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With the ref of "Legal fees keep on rising for university, Surrey Comet-Newsquest", because despite searching the

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Times, Begg, who is a Muslim chaplain at Goldsmiths College, part of London University, said: <blockquote: -->

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hired by Kingston University. In fact, ALL of his/her entries/edits on Knowledge pertain to Kingston University.

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website (which is quite extensive) and Google, I cant find an on-line copy and given other NPOV edits (such as

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Why was the Controversy section removed it appeared to used independant verifyable sources (such as the BBC)?

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Numerous other documents provided on www.sirpeterscott.com to support factual reporting in Knowledge article.

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Yes it is what I mentioned in the lecture, and I'm glad to see that you have found out how to edit the text.

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Not obviously sourced, but it's verifiable (see below). So? This says nothing about any group on campus.

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Greenshields, Mike ,''Slough Observer'', Slough, October 11, 2009,

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one) from the same editor without seeing the whole article I am unsure about the the POV of this claim.

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2006." being readded into the article. The other comments have not been backed up by sources as of yet.

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If the passage above is not the one that you want, perhaps you would write below the passage that you

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But yes, it's clear that one BBC program alleged that an anti-Semitic group was active at Kingston U.

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As it is, I have no reason to think that "Westminster Journal" is any more credible than hizb.org.uk.

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Court document supporting comments regarding criminal charges against Donald Beaton is referenced at:

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In 2010, it emerged that between 2007-2009, Kingston University spent £635,165 in legal fees for six

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Just to clarify - puting aside the fact that section should be removed - I would have to agree with

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policies. Please provide the source and the sentence you want added in here, and we can discuss it.

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www.sirpeterscott.com site includes reports in Indymedia.org as well as copies of court documents.

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was found to be the Chair of the Board of Governors of the Iqra Islamic School, Slough<ref: -->

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http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/4816963.Sacked_Kingston_University_lecturer_guilty_of_harassment/

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Woody is right in that there is no wiggle room here. Court documents are unacceptable sources when

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Khan,Imran. ,''BBC News Online'', London, August 27, 2003.

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You are not responding to my concerns linked to the policies and guidelines of Knowledge, namely

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Gilligan, Andrew ''Telegraph Online'' October 31 ,2009,,

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All of this sets me wondering: Could 67.84.177.67 and Howard Fredrics possibly be related? --

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Do not add statements that discuss controversial material about living people if they are not

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The following notable alumni are so notable that they don't actually have their own articles:

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Marketing speak is a typical problem of university articles. Any editor can simply take out

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in that there must be some doubt as to the "anti-Semitic status" - sufficient to warrant a

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you had third party sources, then you would be able to add the information there. They are

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However, there's no suggestion that any effort went into confirming their genuineness. --

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the University in any case, it is related to the individual in question. There aren't any

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cases, the most of any UK university, with nearly £500,000 of it spent on a single case.

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was found to be the Chair of the Board of Governors of the Iqra Islamic School, Slough

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respondents required from an institution to 30 to give a more reliable response rate.

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I don't get the lack of a TOC. Anyone know? I'll comment on the issue here in a sec.

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Shakeel Begg, a radical cleric Begg, who is a Muslim chaplain at Goldsmith's College

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Yes, they certainly did. Please see additional references supplied on this talk page.

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Health and Safety Executive's (HSE) Management Standards Indicator Tool - User Manual

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University, London redirects through to it. I'm not sure how to do this, I'm afraid.

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University of London, and whose membership is denoted by the ", London" on the end).

3066:. Uh-huh. And so? Perhaps we're supposed to think that, being Jewish, the academic ( 2387: 2045:

I have opened a section on Conflict of interest/Noticeboard please have a look at -

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Pandabearcollective is a reputation manager hired by Kingston University. In fact,

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the annual budget of the University to be dissected. It is an encylopedia article.

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tribunal fees is not neccessary in this article for a number of reasons: 1: it is

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are obviously POV-pushing. A brief search turned up no relevant press reports. —

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and seems keen to retain (unchanged other than for the addition of NOWIKI tags:

2390:, you will find a scanned copy of the Surrey Comet article from a print edition. 1944:

complete address, but won't publish it here in order to preserve your privacy).

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The above mentioned QAA report is available on the QAA site in abridged form at

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template. Could an admin please do so? (Also, please discuss this merge below.)

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the threat to use it against us constitutes a breach of WP:CIVIL if not WP:NLT.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2295:-inspired?) group to which the head of "Westminster Journal" appears to belong. 1991:

hired by Kingston University and therefore do not have a neutral point of view.

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http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/dpfoioffice/a-ztopics/taperecordingconversations/

3200: 3165: 3090: 2724: 2701: 2673: 2627: 2326: 2231: 2208: 2175: 2115: 2025: 1864: 1819: 1738:. Could an administrator please add this to the references on this article? 1655: 1569: 1530: 1405: 1325: 1206: 1031: 1000: 963: 852: 814: 675: 594: 546: 496: 450: 400: 355: 270: 209: 2937: 1939:

I am concerned that "contributors" who are, in fact, either employees of or

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Now, if this were a controversy, the "quality press" (and I don't mean the

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Knowledge:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Kingston_University_COI_and_NPOV

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Yes, while the latter is dubious at best, the former is laughable. Quote:

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information, not a place for arguments between two parties to be "aired".

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but if other people are at a loose end, this could be a nice project... --

2200:

However, Zafar Ali a university-appointed independent investigator in an

1626:. I believe this should resolve any question of reliability of sources. 586: 94:

You may have noticed other things about this work - such as the list of

1502:. It really doesn't merit an article in its own right. Note that the 1116:

http://www.employmentappeals.gov.uk/Public/Upload/06_0243ResfhMLNDA.doc

1837:

of his/her entries/edits on Knowledge pertain to Kingston University.

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the External Examiner, herself, was contacted to verify the account.

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if you think it is not in a vendetta with the University. Please read

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I've pruned and formatted the list. It still requires referencing. —

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To be frank, I am highly disbelieving of your first statement. See

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I think this is all moot - the para has no place in this article.

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be "the allegedly anti-Semitic Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir"? --

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point of view. Such information is absolutely unacceptable where

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http://www.thes.co.uk/current_edition/story.aspx?story_id=2032396

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policy as well as being potentially libelous. Discuss it please.

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http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=409989

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http://education.guardian.co.uk/further/story/0,,1876675,00.html

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Palestine and fight, fight the terrorists, fight the Zionists.”

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http://westminsterjournal.com/content/view/241/30/</ref: -->

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which subsequently had its funding suspended following the

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over articles and divert attention from his own actions(see

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6990407.ece

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No It is not appropriate for a WP article it is misleading.

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so the number is based on an estimate by academicfoi.com ?

1847:

This is fascinating stuff, IP. I note that all but one of

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Knowledge talk:WikiProject Universities#University ratings

878:, or any article in which living persons are implicated. 2895:===Anti Semitic and Radical Islamic Groups on Campus=== 1949:

87.194.51.176, 01:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC); my emphases

1624:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7470125.stm

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Agree to merge. The information is already included in

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uncovered the fact that the anti-Semitic Islamic group

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contracted "reputation managers" of Kingston University

1928: 1911: 1894: 1814:-- an article that I think is problematic in terms of " 1504:

Kingston University National Student Survey controversy

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Kingston University National Student Survey controversy

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UCU names universities with biggest bullying problems

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UCU names universities with biggest bullying problems

1973:

87.194.51.176 (talk) 17:40, 19 July 2008; my emphasis

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http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/beatonsummons.jpg

1736:

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/causesforconcern/kingston09.asp

1506:is an orphan article - nothing useful links to it. 2879:"Anti Semitic and Radical Islamic Groups on Campus" 2310:

a proven high level operative within Hizb ut Tahrir

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http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/extexaminer.jpg

3064:uncovering links at the school with Hizb ut Tahrir 2931:It's divided into four parts. Let's look at them. 2388:http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/legalfees.jpg 1091:http://www.lawreports.co.uk/ICRE/2006/nov.0.3.htm 2542:, I was alerted to the problems on this page by 2424:I am also questioning the relevance and NPOV of 1620:http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/gtextex1.jpg 1139:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7526061.stm 1135:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7397979.stm 2621:"the anti-Semitic Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir" 2088:Knowledge:Sockpuppet investigations/Catface1965 1983:67.84.177.67, 16:13, 26 April 2010; my emphasis 1616:http://www.sirpeterscott.com/images/cgextex.jpg 3025:The source cited says that a relevant charity 2944:had been operating on the university’s campus. 2078:Please be aware this section of the talk page 1963:87.194.51.176, 14:50, 13 May 2008; my emphases 495:sources available. The information has to go. 298:http://www.tuc.org.uk/h_and_s/tuc-12326-f0.cfm 2291:we see its investigation into "Vigil", some ( 1905:If you work for Kingston University and/or a 1888:If you work for Kingston University and/or a 1812:his own article in English-language Knowledge 1133:Kingston's credibility has just taken a hit. 641:secondary source, it necessarily presents an 8: 2163:(an essay but a pertinent one nonetheless). 1767:It is already there as reference number 33. 3138:in the streets during his on campus speech. 1339:Removal of suicide bomber from Alumni list? 2517: 2391: 2040:Knowledge:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard 223:I would cautiously endorse the protected 3162:Outside the Law: Stories from Guantanamo 2228:Kingston University watcher 67.84.177.67 308:http://business.kingston.ac.uk/diana.pdf 3213: 1839:... posted at 16:13, 26 April 2010 by 870:. It is generally the case that if no 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2883:Here is the section that Dbasemgr69 ( 2113:our guidelines on criticism sections. 1918:, 21:16, 7 January 2008 (my emphasis) 1901:, 21:09, 7 January 2008 (my emphasis) 1471:for this alteration before using the 587:http://www.sirpeterscott.com/#threats 7: 1999:the editing history of 87.194.51.176 2761:Biases from University/ detractors. 1961:will be taken with a grain of salt. 1879:reputation managers and other folks 1430:I've just found the brief article, 80:Attempt at making the TOC come back 1114:I would briefly point you towards 179:Knowledge:WikiProject Universities 24: 2538:I have no connection at all with 2014:the contributions of 67.84.177.67 1314:, Illustrator (Graphically Clean) 2961:) would write it up. Did they? 2454:states at the end of the report 2071: 1993:67.84.177.67, 12:09, 4 May 2010. 1854:pertain to Kingston University. 1459: 1404:that he is Francois Greeff.) -- 1402:says at the end of this addition 29: 1935:, 15 January 2008 (my emphasis) 440:Yes, but it still breaches the 3020:Thirdly (after reformatting), 2904:by the University.<ref: --> 2480:it clearly states on page 3 : 2342:I have removed the sentance : 1414:13:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC) 1334:10:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC) 849:request for comments (article) 1: 2278:website is a reliable source? 1953:Perhaps when taken together, 1916:User talk:Pandabearcollective 1907:reputation management company 1890:reputation management company 1777:11:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC) 1754:02:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC) 1725:16:52, 10 February 2010 (UTC) 1539:03:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC) 1516:11:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC) 1492:16:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC) 1454:14:53, 11 February 2010 (UTC) 876:biographies of living persons 194:23:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC) 1828:14:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 1805:09:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC) 1698:15:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC) 1664:23:59, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 1642:22:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 1604:13:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 1578:13:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC) 1400:. (Incidentally, GoodGreeff 1290:13:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC) 1277:12:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC) 1215:15:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 1191:14:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 1128:14:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC) 1103:13:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC) 1085:10:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC) 1055:01:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC) 1040:20:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC) 1026:20:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC) 1009:23:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC) 987:23:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC) 972:11:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC) 944:04:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC) 926:03:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC) 903:01:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC) 888:16:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC) 861:13:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC) 842:11:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC) 823:15:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 803:14:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 776:03:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 757:03:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 737:01:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 712:01:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 697:01:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 690:01:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 684:01:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 659:01:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 624:01:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 603:01:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 579:01:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 555:01:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 530:00:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 505:00:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 481:00:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 459:00:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 434:00:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC) 409:18:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC) 387:18:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC) 364:22:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 345:22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 279:21:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 263:21:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 157:02:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC) 102:- these are quite powerful. 3104:For the avoidance of doubt 1373:17:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC) 1348:Reads like an advertisement 1302:, Chief Editor - CBA Weekly 1221:Controversy section removed 240:18:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC) 218:19:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 3239: 2936:In 2003, BBC Television’s 1873:09:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC) 1137:. And many more, such as 168:15:48, 24 April 2006 (UTC) 147:Not happy with the article 2308:. You now say that he is 1977:Pandabearcollective is a 1257:17:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 1241:01:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC) 141:14:45, 28 July 2004 (UTC) 3209:15:47, 19 May 2010 (UTC) 3190:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3174:15:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3148:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3133:14:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3118:14:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3099:10:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3084:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3047:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 3012:17:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 2998:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 2975:17:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC) 2873:11:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC) 2851:01:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC) 2822:19:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC) 2747:03:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC) 2476:However if you read the 2386:.If you go to the page, 1674:'Constructive feedback' 1167:Halls of residence claim 1161:14:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC) 635:secondary coverage from 545:. It is poorly sourced. 18:Talk:Kingston University 2782:Look at this section; 2733:23:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2718:07:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2696:06:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC) 2682:23:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2658:17:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2636:16:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2611:22:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2591:16:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC) 2571:12:28, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2512:11:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2419:12:28, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2335:23:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2262:15:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2240:04:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC) 2217:23:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2184:22:40, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2146:22:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2124:21:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC) 2059:15:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2034:13:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC) 2007:this extraordinary edit 1199:verifiable, third party 2082:have been effected by 1142:with a grain of salt. 2321:Well, whoever he is, 2168:Neutral point of view 2064:Removal of some paras 1969:'reputation managers' 1924:reputation management 1308:, automotive designer 961:conflict of interest. 42:of past discussions. 2917:</blockquote: --> 2907:</blockquote: --> 2157:synthesis of sources 2102:synthesising sources 1931:by 87.194.51.176 to 1914:by 87.194.51.176 to 1897:by 87.194.51.176 to 1529:(for newsiness). -- 1320:, writer and slacker 372:Witness intimidation 98:, and the notion of 2902:<blockquote: --> 2540:Kingston University 2530:) 12:09, 4 May 2010 2404:) 12:05, 4 May 2010 2356:Employment Tribunal 1959:reputation managers 1922:You appear to be a 1797:Pandabearcollective 1525:(for substance) or 1500:Kingston University 1479:template. — Martin 1467:please establish a 993:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS 950:those individuals, 745:request for comment 2559:Codf1977 Block Log 2312:. Which is it, IP? 2207:(my emphasis). -- 2170:not your opinions. 1989:reputation manager 1979:reputation manager 1933:User talk:Mholland 1899:User talk:Mattalex 1306:Christian Hrabalek 672:Dispute resolution 173:University ratings 2854: 2837:comment added by 2825: 2808:comment added by 2531: 2522:comment added by 2500: 2499: 2474: 2473: 2444: 2443: 2405: 2396:comment added by 2365: 2364: 2252:comment added by 2136:comment added by 2093: 2092: 1744:comment added by 1728: 1711:comment added by 1688:comment added by 1632:comment added by 1607: 1590:comment added by 1565:verfiable sources 1490: 1384:On 3 March 2009, 1376: 1359:comment added by 1243: 1231:comment added by 1203:original research 1193: 1177:comment added by 1163: 1151:comment added by 805: 789:comment added by 739: 727:comment added by 649:are inmplicated. 626: 614:comment added by 581: 532: 520:comment added by 483: 471:comment added by 436: 424:comment added by 347: 335:comment added by 265: 253:comment added by 131:comment added by 77: 76: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3230: 3223: 3218: 2853: 2831: 2824: 2802: 2661: 2594: 2486: 2460: 2430: 2348: 2264: 2148: 2097:Manuals of style 2075: 2074: 2068: 1861:this noticeboard 1756: 1727: 1705: 1700: 1644: 1606: 1584: 1480: 1478: 1463: 1462: 1443: 1437: 1429: 1375: 1353: 1226: 1172: 1146: 914:reliable sources 872:reliable sources 784: 722: 637:reliable sources 609: 591:WP:Verifiability 572: 515: 466: 419: 330: 248: 191:Timrollpickering 143: 105:Enjoy your week 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3238: 3237: 3233: 3232: 3231: 3229: 3228: 3227: 3226: 3219: 3215: 3068:Howard Fredrics 3062:Daily Telegraph 2929: 2881: 2832: 2803: 2763: 2706:reliable source 2651: 2623: 2584: 2555:Revws Block Log 2446:as reported in 2247: 2131: 2072: 2066: 2043: 2019:Howard Fredrics 2003:Howard Fredrics 1881: 1739: 1706: 1683: 1627: 1585: 1547: 1545:Protected again 1472: 1460: 1441: 1435: 1423: 1421: 1386:User:GoodGreeff 1382: 1380:Francois Greeff 1354: 1350: 1341: 1300:Russell Cousins 1264: 1223: 1197:Again, we need 1169: 997:provide sources 743:You can make a 374: 201: 175: 149: 126: 114: 82: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3236: 3234: 3225: 3224: 3212: 3193: 3192: 3155: 3154: 3153: 3152: 3151: 3150: 3087: 3086: 3050: 3049: 3019: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 2978: 2977: 2942:Hizb ut-Tahrir 2893: 2880: 2877: 2876: 2875: 2856: 2855: 2762: 2759: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2698: 2663: 2662: 2656:comment added 2622: 2619: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2615: 2614: 2613: 2589:comment added 2547: 2536: 2498: 2497: 2494: 2490: 2483: 2472: 2471: 2468: 2464: 2457: 2442: 2441: 2438: 2434: 2427: 2422: 2421: 2363: 2362: 2359: 2352: 2345: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2313: 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2293:Man from Uncle 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2266: 2265: 2224: 2223: 2222: 2221: 2220: 2219: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2171: 2150: 2149: 2091: 2090: 2076: 2065: 2062: 2042: 2037: 1995: 1994: 1984: 1974: 1964: 1950: 1936: 1919: 1902: 1880: 1877: 1876: 1875: 1831: 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2036: 2035: 2031: 2027: 2022: 2020: 2015: 2010: 2008: 2004: 2000: 1992: 1990: 1985: 1982: 1980: 1975: 1972: 1970: 1965: 1962: 1960: 1956: 1951: 1948: 1947: 1942: 1937: 1934: 1930: 1927: 1925: 1920: 1917: 1913: 1910: 1908: 1903: 1900: 1896: 1893: 1891: 1886: 1885: 1884: 1878: 1874: 1870: 1866: 1862: 1857: 1853: 1852:contributions 1851: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1836: 1829: 1825: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1810:Fredrics has 1809: 1808: 1807: 1806: 1802: 1798: 1794: 1790: 1778: 1774: 1770: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1763: 1762: 1761: 1755: 1751: 1747: 1743: 1737: 1733: 1732: 1731: 1730: 1729: 1726: 1722: 1718: 1714: 1710: 1701: 1699: 1695: 1691: 1687: 1679: 1675: 1669: 1668: 1665: 1661: 1657: 1653: 1647: 1646: 1645: 1643: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1613: 1608: 1605: 1601: 1597: 1593: 1589: 1580: 1579: 1575: 1571: 1568: 1566: 1562: 1555: 1553: 1544: 1540: 1536: 1532: 1528: 1524: 1519: 1517: 1513: 1509: 1505: 1501: 1497: 1496: 1493: 1488: 1484: 1476: 1470: 1466: 1458: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1451: 1447: 1440: 1433: 1427: 1426:editprotected 1418: 1416: 1415: 1411: 1407: 1403: 1399: 1395: 1391: 1390:contributions 1387: 1379: 1377: 1374: 1370: 1366: 1362: 1358: 1347: 1345: 1338: 1336: 1335: 1331: 1327: 1319: 1318:Daisy Steiner 1316: 1313: 1310: 1307: 1304: 1301: 1298: 1297: 1296: 1291: 1288: 1285: 1281: 1280: 1279: 1278: 1274: 1270: 1261: 1259: 1258: 1254: 1250: 1249:87.194.51.176 1244: 1242: 1238: 1234: 1233:86.166.23.212 1230: 1220: 1216: 1212: 1208: 1204: 1200: 1196: 1195: 1194: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1166: 1164: 1162: 1158: 1154: 1153:87.194.51.176 1150: 1143: 1140: 1136: 1129: 1125: 1121: 1117: 1113: 1112: 1107: 1106: 1105: 1104: 1100: 1096: 1095:87.194.51.176 1092: 1087: 1086: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1056: 1052: 1048: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1037: 1033: 1029: 1028: 1027: 1023: 1019: 1015: 1012: 1011: 1010: 1006: 1002: 998: 994: 990: 989: 988: 984: 980: 979:87.194.51.176 975: 974: 973: 969: 965: 962: 957: 953: 948: 947: 946: 945: 941: 937: 936:87.194.51.176 927: 923: 919: 915: 910: 909: 908: 907: 904: 900: 896: 895:87.194.51.176 893:"noteworthy." 891: 889: 885: 881: 877: 873: 869: 864: 862: 858: 854: 850: 846: 845: 844: 843: 839: 835: 834:87.194.51.176 830: 824: 820: 816: 812: 808: 807: 806: 804: 800: 796: 792: 788: 777: 773: 769: 764: 763: 762: 761: 758: 754: 750: 746: 742: 741: 740: 738: 734: 730: 729:87.194.51.176 726: 718: 714: 713: 709: 705: 699: 698: 692: 691: 686: 685: 681: 677: 673: 668: 660: 656: 652: 648: 644: 639: 638: 632: 631: 630: 629: 625: 621: 617: 616:87.194.51.176 613: 606: 604: 600: 596: 592: 588: 584: 583: 582: 580: 577:was added at 576: 571: 567: 566:87.194.51.176 563: 556: 552: 548: 544: 540: 535: 534: 533: 531: 527: 523: 522:87.194.51.176 519: 513: 506: 502: 498: 494: 493: 486: 485: 484: 482: 478: 474: 473:87.194.51.176 470: 460: 456: 452: 448: 443: 439: 438: 437: 435: 431: 427: 426:87.194.51.176 423: 410: 406: 402: 397: 393: 392: 391: 390: 389: 388: 384: 380: 371: 365: 361: 357: 352: 351: 350: 349: 348: 346: 342: 338: 337:87.194.51.176 334: 327: 326: 319: 316: 314: 311: 309: 306: 304: 301: 299: 296: 294: 291: 290: 286: 285: 280: 276: 272: 267: 266: 264: 260: 256: 255:87.194.51.176 252: 245: 244: 241: 238: 235: 231: 229: 226: 222: 221: 220: 219: 215: 211: 207: 198: 196: 195: 192: 188: 182: 180: 172: 170: 169: 166: 159: 158: 155: 146: 144: 142: 138: 134: 133:194.80.240.66 130: 122: 118: 111: 109: 108: 103: 101: 97: 92: 89: 85: 79: 73: 70: 68: 65: 62: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3216: 3196: 3194: 3161: 3157: 3156: 3105: 3088: 3059: 3056: 3053: 3051: 3031: 3026: 3021: 3018: 2981: 2979: 2958: 2956: 2953: 2947: 2935: 2933: 2930: 2919: 2909: 2901: 2897: 2894: 2882: 2800: 2797: 2795: 2791: 2785: 2784: 2781: 2778: 2771: 2769: 2768: 2764: 2624: 2524:67.84.177.67 2518:— Preceding 2515: 2501: 2482: 2475: 2456: 2445: 2426: 2423: 2398:67.84.177.67 2392:— Preceding 2385: 2369:Surrey Comet 2366: 2344: 2341: 2322: 2309: 2305: 2292: 2275: 2271: 2254:67.84.177.67 2225: 2201: 2199: 2138:67.84.177.67 2110: 2094: 2079: 2044: 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