Talk:Kuči (tribe)/Archive 2

1594:, as there are no genetic studies on the Kuči. Of course, you can find information on amateur websites such as the Serbian DNA Project where people submit the results of their own genetic tests. However, not only is this an amateur website, but if you look at the results in question, you will find that there are too few members of "clans" or "families" who have been tested to draw any conclusions. And even if it turned out that all Kuči people have the same common ancestor who lived 800 years ago or whenever, genetics doesn't have nationality, whatever the case may be: you can't know if when the tribe was formed, it wasn't already largely slavicized. After all, what does it mean to be Slavic or Albanian? It's not a matter of genes; it's primarily a set of cultural and linguistic traits shared by a group of individuals. You can't know if when the Kuči tribe emerged as an Orthodox Slavic tribe during the early modern period, it hadn't already largely adopted a Slavic character, both linguistically, of course, but also culturally, such as the adoption of the typical South Slavic family organization, the 1716:

and then you have three generations of either Albanian names or in a case of Nikeza, a name that has a deminutive from Albanian language in it. Mainly Nikeza, his son Drekale, and then his son Lala (I am not sure about origin of this name, as it is still used in Serbia, even though it's a bit strange, but we 100% know that he was originally catholic, but then changed his religion and that it was the last big change in the tribe). And the fact that the tribe itself was part of the Zetski Zbor tells you that for at least half a century there was no catholic priest in the region. So if there was a statement in 17th century that Kuči is becoming orthodox, it tells you that during 16th century something happend, as in the 15th century there was no presence of Catholic church in the tribe.

1548:

as Albanian ones. In light of this genetic research, I have also had to change some of my opinions. It now appears that the Bankeqi of Trieshi and the core of Koja e Kuçit stem from the same tribal community as the Kuči, sharing an ancestor who lived in ca. 1373 CE. This, surprisingly, corroborates some of the oral traditions of the Bankeqi which do in fact point to common ancestry with the Kuči. In these traditions, for example, the Nikezići are depicted as descended from a certain

31: 2053:

Middle Ages (E-BY168279), but this isn't explicitly discussed in the article because no papers have been published yet. It is certain that this subclade didn't exist in medieval Montenegro and it moved there only in the late Middle Ages from Albania. The same sub-branch (E-BY165837) as Kuçi includes Koja e Kuçit and the major Trieshi lineage and all of their upstream "cousins" are other Albanian lineages from further south in central Albania.

1789:

tribe was Serbian. Simply put, there is no way to figure out the exact ethnic composition or character of the community. However, judging by the fact that, due to political and religious reasons, it was more common for Albanians to adopt Slavic anthroponymy than vice versa; it is highly likely that the Albanian element was way higher than can be interpreted solely by Albanian anthroponymy. As is suggested by RS scholars such as Pulaha.

1442:. Hence the article cannot include information which directly contradicts reality based on sources which are either outdated or discuss the topic superficially. Research is beyond the point where we just compare & contrast how many sources use the term "Albanian" and how many use the term "Slavic".The key points which you have raised have been answered but we cannot discuss Erdeljanović (1907) again because his works are not 1572:

Zeta bishopric being different from if the tribes were directly subordinate to the Venetians. Furthermore, a number of Albanian tribes and communities partook in the assembly (e.g., Hoti, Gruda, Tuzi, Matagushi, Kryethi, etc), some of which would've still been Catholic Christians at this point. As such, the participation of the Kuči in this assembly does not rule out an Albanian character during this period in time.

1047:'A Franciscan report of the 17th century illustrates the final stages of their acculturation. Its author writes that the Bratonožići, Piperi, Bjelopavlići and Kuči: nulla di meno essegno quasi tutti del rito serviano, e di lingua Illrica ponno piu presto dirsi Schiavoni, ch' Albanesi (since almost all of them use the Serbian rite and the Illyric language, soon they should be called Slavs, rather than Albanians)' 1386:

Sciences, Saint Petersburg State University) that was presented at “Multiculturalism and Language Contact” event organized by the Scientific Institute “Max van der Stoel” and Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts‘ research Center for Areal Linguistics. Editors of the publication: Prof. Dr. Veton Latifi Prof. Dr. Victor A. Friedman Prof. Dr. Marjan Markovikj.

1530:

but we are not sure who that one ancestor is and you are not including the maternal line which is also impornant to the history of the tribe (one of the reason Lale converted to Orhodoxy was that his wife was an Orthodox Serb). In my opinion, last known ancestor is known as Nenad (which tells you that even the oldest known ancestor had a Slavic/Serbian name).

1526:

report and the quote i gave you about vojvoda Lale and his conversion to Orthodoxy. We established that by the end of 15th century, based on the defters that are quoted in the aritcle, the villages in Kuci were 35% Albanian, 35% Slavic and 30% mixed. So during the creation of a tribe, and the time of the first Vojvoda of Kuci, tribe was most definitely mixed.

993:). Thirdly, since Soranzo doesn't specifically mention the ethnic composition of the tribes themselves, most importantly the Kuči, using it as evidence of the abovementioned claim is without justification. This also highlights an issue with the use of primary sources which can be interpreted differently, and potentially erroneously, by different readers. 1813:

Gojko was son of Mrnja. While Gojko was pretty popular name in the Kuči region during the 15th century, i really doubt there ever was a Gojko Mrnjavčević as he is only mentioned in the Serbian poetry. We could discuss the age of the myth tho, i think it really might have been from the 15th/16th century, but that's not something we will ever know.

2012:

been published yet. It is certain that this subclade didn't exist in medieval Montenegro and it moved there only in the late Middle Ages from Albania. The same sub-branch (E-BY165837) as Kuçi includes Koja e Kuçit and the major Trieshi lineage and all of their upstream "cousins" are other Albanian lineages from further south in central Albania.

905:

different origins while the broader haplogroup which the Kuçi carry is represented by 15-20% fewer lineages among Vlachs compared to Albanians. More importantly, the Kuçi are not mentioned in archival sources as Vlachs, hence there's nothing which connects them to Vlachs. There are tribes of Vlach origin in Montenegro like the

1393:

territory occupied by the Kuči. The population in the area had been (partially) bilingual in Albanian and Slavic for a long time, but after the gradual Slavicization of Albanians, most of the tribe became Slavic-speaking. The only exception is the small area of Koći / Kojë, which is inhabited by Albanians and Albanized Serbs.

2052:

It is WP:FORUM that this is still being discussed, but there seems to be a need to repeat some topics. The argument is not one about haplogroups. There is no argument which states Kuçi ~ E-V13 ~ Albanian. The Kuçi belong to a specific subclade of E-V13 which expanded with Albanian movements since the

2043:

Gjergj Nenada - Gjergj, son of Nenad similar to Lazër Nenada - Lazar son of Nenad. Symbiosis of Slavic and Albanian names is not uncommon in these areas, even among tribes which in general are not considered of Albanian origin like the Drobnjaks hence anthroponymy needs to be taken into consideration

1711:

But you really don't know what happend, as even the Mrnjavčević moved from the Skadar region north to the Kuči region today so you have no idea of the original population of the region. What you do know is that in 1485 the split was basically 50%-50%. So when the tribe was created, you can definitely

1706:

There is no evidence 'that there was a process of albanization during the 16th century', let's also not neglect the fact that the Kuči are first attested in an ethnic Albanian community. In 1485, ~41.5% of household heads bore typical Albanian names, while ~35.9% bore Slavic names (2/3 of these being

1575:

938:

The claim or insinuation that the native medieval population of northern Albania was Vlach is not only erroneous but also completely irrelevant and unproductive to the discussion. Please, for future reference, refrain from making such claims in order to avoid potential arguments which are of no value

810:

I remember now that you don't consider the tribes of the Brda as Montenegrin tribes, as if they were closer to Albanian ones, but in fact, that's not the case. Anyway, apart from the Koja villages, Kuči are not Albanians, they even mostly identified as Serbs in the 2011 census. So the presence of the

714:

It is a historically Albanian tribe and part of it still identifies as Albanian. By default, this reality means that the article has to reflect that a part of Kuçi is still Albanian. The Montenegrin identity is related to the inclusion of the territory in modern Montenegro, but Kuçi has no historical

610:

They dont seem to understand, that just because the document said one thing that it's fact. For example, if we were to look up old sources, we could look at the Kelmendi tribe which are Albanian, they identify as such and they were throughout the history, they survived slavicization and probably just

238:

A Franciscan report of the 17th century illustrates the final stages of their acculturation. Its author writes that the Bratonožići, Piperi, Bjelopavlići and Kuči: nulla di meno essegno quasi tutti del rito serviano, e di lingua Illrica ponno piu presto dirsi Schiavoni, ch' Albanesi (since almost all

1755:

Taking oral traditions at face value is problematic as they do tend to be inaccurate. It is certain that the tradition of origin from the Mrnjavčevići has no historical basis and is a later fabrication, and we cannot say for certain that the Nenad who was deceased by 1416-7 is the same as the one in

1677:

In these traditions, for example, the Nikezići are depicted as descended from a certain Mara Ponti who appears to have been a historical figure. This is based on the fact that sons of Mara are recorded in 1485 in the village of Pantalesh. The patronym Nikezići is also interesting since it appears to

1547:

The point isn't that E-V13 = Albanian, of course it doesn't, the point is that E-BY165837 is an Albanian subclade of E-V13. Based on phylogeny, diversity, TMRCA, and other factors we are able to tie certain subclades to specific ethno-linguistic groups, just like how there are Serbian clades as well

1529:

I agree that most of Kuci share same paternal ancestor (still not all, as there are many of those who are neither Old Kuci or Drekalovici, but families that actually moved to the region of Kuci tribe and stayed there. Even in the article itself you have one such person, and that is Muamer Zukorlic),

1525:

4. We established that the tribe was orthodox in the 15th century as the tribe itself was a part of Zetski Zbor and requested no catholic priests to be present at their territory, and that there was process of albanization during the 16th century and then slow return to orthodoxy based on Franciscan

1253:

Out of all things, Serbs want this the most (implying freedom from the Turks). The nation that lives from Danube to the mountains of Albania, and those in Dardania, the ones that live near those mountains, are best able to make the greatest stirres: And those are Piperi, Kuci, Clementi, Bjelopavlici

1074:

I disagree, i think you misunderstood what was written. As the matter of fact in the quote that is in the article right now there is "rito serviano" which means that Serbian didn't mean the territory, but the people. Especially that the Soranzo itself doesn't call the region "Serbia", but "Dardania"

324:

Now you are misquoting the article. Tribe has not been formed until the 15th century. So by the time tribe was created, people were already mostly orthodox (as has been said in the article itself) and they spoke illyrian language which was a common misconception about slavic languages of the period.

1691:

Aside from Soranzo's ambiguity regarding ethnic and geographic descriptions (of which are open to different interpretations), another issue is that he doesn't specifically describe the ethnic composition of the Kuči - contrary to what was claimed in the previous edit. As such it can be argued to be

1567:

1385:

Other than that, i would also love to add: SLAVIC-ALBANIAN INTERACTION IN VELJA GORANA: PAST AND PRESENT OF A BALANCED LANGUAGE CONTACT SITUATION as a source, which is a scientific paper done by Maria S. Morozova and Alexander Yu. Rusakov, (Institute for Linguistic Studies of the Russian Academy of

1313:

Serbs out of all wants this the most. Nation that lives from mountains of Albania to Danube, and those who are in Dardania and closer to these mountains are uprising a lot. And those are: Piperi, Kuči, Klimenti, Bjelopavlići and tribes from the region of Plav: among whom there are many Albanians of

1249:

The reference to Soranzo is inaccurate because Soranzo doesn't write that In the 16th century, the Italian traveler Lazaro Soranzo while writing about Serb uprising of 1596–1597 described the tribes in the region, including Kuči, as mostly Serbian with some Albanian presence while the conversion of

596:

2. Second book is interesting, as there is no talk about the origin at all, the book itself just has this line: "The approximately thirty Albanian tribes were not all structured alike, although they were usually composed of clans, which in turn were composed of extended families. They traced their

478:

First one is only a possibility, there's no proof for that, it's something we just agreed could be a story of origin. It's fine as a myth, just as i am not against the myth of George Kastriot. It's fun, it's folklore and it's ok. (only the second story is part of the folklore of Kuči tribe. I think

2062:

The proposed statement From then on, the Kuči predominantly identified as a Serbian Orthodox tribe. cannot be further inferred from the sources, nor can we assume that because Lale switched to Serbian Orthodox, all of Kuçi became immediately Serbian Orthodox, nor is this an argument for linguistic

2057:

It's fine to discuss it. You can say E-BY1628279 is an illyrian or tracian or whatever the tribe was called that the haplogroup originates from, i couldn't care less. What's not for debate is that haplogroup, even when it's shared by others is not what defines your identity. Sure, you can say that

2011:

The argument is not one about haplogroups. There is no argument which states Kuçi ~ E-V13 ~ Albanian. The Kuçi belong to a specific subclade of E-V13 which expanded with Albanian movements since the Middle Ages (E-BY168279), but this isn't explicitly discussed in the article because no papers have

1833:

It's not a proof that they were Serbs, but that they actually were Slavic just like many others in the region. Slavs are a ethnolinguistic group. But in the Balkans, it's more linguistic than anything else. As you love to mention haplogroups, you would probably know that Hungarians are more Slavic

1788:

Soranzo doesn't specifically write about the Kuči and his 'demography' is very vague. If you want you can propose an example here, although I personally think we should avoid using this source for the reasons argued here and above. As for the defter of 1485, it by no means suggests that 50% of the

1780:

On the other hand the names of Panta's sons, Pjetri and Lesh, correspond to the katunds and villages of Petrovići and Leshevići recorded in the years 1497, 1570, and 1582. We will also add that in the register of 1485 the head of the village of Pantalesh is recorded as Vuksan son of Mara, and that

1715:

There was most definitely a process of albanization, oldest known ancestor that we can find with 100% proof of existence is Nenad. Nenad had three sons. Lazar, Đurađ/Gjerg and Grča. Grča was the one that moved to village called Bardhanje which can be found in the defters. Grča had son called Panto

1696:

There's really not many different interpretations. Soranzo is describing a Serb uprising, and stating that the most fearsome fighters and those who want freedom the most are Serbs from the region of Brda and Plav. He then lists the tribes, and states that among them also live Albanians of Catholic

1415:

and his new sources, while we have 2 new stating Kuči were of Albanian origin (based on the Franscian report from the 17th century), the Cambridge one actually states there was a mixture of population. Based on that, and the defters, Lazzaro Soranzo and his reports from the 16th century, we should

1261:

Catholicism isn't propaganda, but the spreading of any religion was used to call just that. The original author didn't imply that the catholicism is wrong, just that Rufim was against spread of Catholicism in the territory of the Patriarchate of Peć (Serbian Orthodox Church). If you think that the

356:

It's not really "over the half" as we have the defters. I don't even wanna argue about the number of Slavic and Albanian names as most of the families had both. If you read the defters as i have, you would see that names such as Pal and Žarko who are brothers. I agree that the slavenization of the

265:

Regardless on whether or not we can ascribe titles to communities of quite diverse and complex linguistic and cultural identity, I do wish to clarify that nowhere in the article does it say something akin to "Kuci is an ethnic Albanian tribe" or "Kuci are Slavicised Albanians". It simply tells the

130:

Of course there is, both boxes are included for a tribe that is even to this day ethno-linguistically mixed. The 'Tribes of Montenegro' box is linked at the beginning of the article, as such there is a much higher chance that readers will be redirected to the article on Montenegrin tribes than the

1935:

My point was precisely that Grča was not the father of Panta, but rather a figure named Llesh was Panta's father. Judging by similar toponyms found in the region in medieval documents and present times, such settlements inherited their founder's name, both first and second - of which the majority

1903:

1880:

In 1675. a Serbian Orthodox metropolitan Rufim Boljević, an active protester against spread of Catholicism in the region, converted vojvoda Lale Drekalov from Catholicism to Orthodoxy. This event marked the end of major religious changes within the Kuči tribe. From then on, the Kuči predominantly

1576:

restricted to two settlements). The remainder bore mixed anthroponymy. It is an established fact that medieval Albanians adopted Slavic personal names as a result of the political and religious influence of the South Slavic polities, thus this still doesn't refute an Albanian origin or character.

1571:

Regarding the Zetski zbor, things aren't as clear cut as is being presented. The Kuči didn't make these requests independently, they were only a single tribe out of 51. There are also economic aspects that must be considered which influenced the majority decision of this assembly, taxes under the

1326:

The book itself is about Kuči. Rašović started a bit earlier, and talked about people who lived in the tribe before the formation of the tribe, and before all of the migrations (before Old Kuči). So his "Old Kuči" are not Mrnjavčević, but the people who lived there in the 13th century and before.

1288:Ови дошљаци бјеху Срби и Арбанаси, људи храбри и енергични, претставници непомирљиве борбе са Турцима. Готово сви су овамо дошли као јака братства, која себи и силом заузимаху сједишта међу старим Кучима, па се и доцније, на њихову штету, ширише и натјераше тиме многе старе породице, да се раселе. 1094:

It doesn't, but it does disagree with overwhelming opinion on this talk page pushed by few users on this talk page. And that is, that even before the Franciscan report there were people saying that Kuči is a tribe of Serbs. Which would tell you that origin of the tribe, even back in 16th and 15th

1082:

I am not using the Soranzo to say that the origin is mixed, i am using Marko Rašović. Soranzo is just an importnant detail of how some people of that period interpreted the ethographic situation of the region. Same as the Franscian report that is literally quoted word by word, which is a document

363:

So by the 1485. you had mixture of names and the orthodox church. Tribe formed then. Over the time, catholic believers changed to orthodoxy, and there are even some cases where there was Orthodoxy-Catholicism-return to Orthodoxy kind of deal like it was with Nikeza Marinov, his son Andrej Nikezin

286:

In general, article is full of myths presented as facts even though you don't agree with that. For example, here we all agreed that Novo Kuči/Drekalovići and Staro Kuči (Serbian for new Kuči and Old Kuči) are of the same origin. Yet the article will tell you that Drekalovići trace their origin to

1926:

Well the Slavic names and culture didn't fall out of a sky, it had to come from somewhere. So there was definitely some mixing. But this begs the question, when did Kuči stop "being an Albanian tribe" and why? Where do you draw the line? Because the article itself doesn't state that the tribe is

1812:

Of course, and that is why i am only calling them Mrnjavčević as they call themselves like that. You can find my opinion about it in the comment above yours where i stated that the oldest known ancestor is definitely Nenad. And not Mrnja. Oral traditions say that Nenad was son of Gojko, and that

1707:

1615:

And no, a sizeable number of the core brotherhoods have been tested, enough to determine the genetic genealogy of the core population of the tribe. Genetics itself doesn't have a nationality true, but if a subclade and it's parallel branches are all represented by a specific ethnic group; we can

1392:

The best-known example is the case of the Kuči, which had been an Orthodox Serbian tribe until the fifteenth century. From the beginning of the fifteenth to the end of the seventeenth century several Albanian (Catholic) and Serbian (Orthodox and Catholic) groups from other regions settled in the

1086:

As for the WP:SYNTH, the article itself has it again. While quoting Franciscan report, only ONE source is actually talking about it, and that is Xhufi, Pëllumb (2013). "Përkime shqiptaro-malazeze në mesjetë". Other two sources are not even talking about it, both of which are just calling Kuči an

1036:

You cannot draw such a conclusion from a primary argument because the historical context of the terms used has to be interpreted by modern and reliable secondary sources. If under the Serbs 'many Albanians' are included, then the term 'Serbs' itself is not an ethnic term, but a geographical one.

305:

There, they appear in the surname of Petar Kuč (Albanian: Pjetër Kuçi), an individual from the Albanian katun (Serbian: Katun Arbanasa), possibly the leader of the Kuči brotherhood. The same Petar Kuč is mentioned again as the head of a household of the Albanian katun in the third charter of the

100:

I think it is completely unnecessary to remove it. The box/tag itself is included in the 'Origins' section and there are still Albanians who identify as being from Kuçi, still living in the villages which were historically a part of the tribe. The inclusion of both boxes maintains neutrality and

1437:

You posted a quote based on Erdeljanović (1907) which directly contradicts what we know today. Kuçi, the main part of Trieshi and the main part of Koja all have the same patrilineal ancestor - all of them. There is not a single brotherhood of Slavic origin in Kuçi, just as there is not a single

1396:

Also, there's an interesting article by Adnan Čergić, the professor of Montenegrin language that is disagreeing with Erdeljanović, on the "Serbian" part of the tribe, exclusively calling it Slavic based on the name that Albanians around the tribe called Slavs in the Kuči tribe, and that word is

1290:

I'm not certain to whom he refers because the phrasing is ambiguous but there is no relation to Kuçi in this statement, nor is there anything in the recorded genealogy of Kuçi about such events. Based on our modern knowledge which relies on genetic genealogy, there is also no Old vs. "New" Kuçi

1012:

The text states: "Out of all things, Serbs want this the most (implying freedom from the Turks). The nation that lives from Danube to the mountains of Albania, and those in Dardania, the ones that live near those mountains, are best able to make the greatest stirres: And those are Piperi, Kuci,

904:

No, nothing about the Kuçi leads to any Vlachs in Albania. The lineage of Kuçi is a typical Albanian lineage and Vlachs in Albania, Greece, N. Macedonia and most other areas in the Balkans are not fundamentally related to any haplogroup. There is no Vlach haplogroup in general as they have many

1943:

Btw, i am interested in the Albanian surname traditions, this has nothing to do with text, but in Montenegro and Serbia there was a long tradition of people using fathers name as the surname which can also be seen in the example of village of Kuč where there's a "Gjergj Nenada" where Nenada is

1930:

Because from what we can see, even back to the 14th century you can find slavic names, and even back to the 14th and 15th century you can find orthodoxy in the pre-tribe population, so while i agree that E-V13 is not a Slavic haplogroup, neither is I2 which is the most common in Yugoslavs, and

1685:

Mara/Marin Pantov (Not Ponti, as it comes from the name "Panto") is a historical figure that was one of the 5 sons of Panto: Petar, Djuradj/Gjerg, Tiho, Mara and Lesh (as this is an Albanian name that is not used in Montenegro, i am not really sure how to write it so sorry). In fact it was the

1322:

Rašović writes that Ови дошљаци бјеху Срби и Арбанаси, људи храбри и енергични, претставници непомирљиве борбе са Турцима. Готово сви су овамо дошли као јака братства, која себи и силом заузимаху сједишта међу старим Кучима, па се и доцније, на њихову штету, ширише и натјераше тиме многе старе

2025:

When some Kuçi brotherhoods settled in Plav-Gucia/Plav-Gusinje around 1700, they were certainly Albanian-speaking or bilingual, but not monolingual Slavic-speakers. This occurred about 80 years after Lale's conversion. Slavicization among the Orthodox Kuçi didn't happen in a single moment but

923:

Sorry, my bad. I wanted to say native people of the region, you know, before modern nations were created. That's not the point, and i would not like to argue about that. The point is that if all Kuči share the common ancestor, it's not possible for Drekalovići to originate from Berishe tribe.

767:

There is almost nothing in scholarship related to Kuči as an Albanian tribe. Yes, they appear as a community from an Albanian katun in the Late Middle Ages, so that part of their origin is not disputed, then their present territory is mentioned as a nahija in the late 15th and during the 16th

1936:

were patronyms. This being especially true for settlements founded by Albanians. Examples include Vuksanlekaj, Gjon Branka, Mensabardh/Melshabardh and others. I doubt that Pantalesh took its name from Panta and his son Llesh, especially since the Leshoviqi developed later from the community.

1904:

1262:

line itself should be changed a bit to better fit the context, i could agree with that. I was trying to be as truthful to the original as i could, as i was attacked earlier for not doing that. As i was attacked for using the original documents, and for not using modern sources etc etc

2002:= Lazar son of Nenad. Symbiosis of Slavic and Albanian names is not uncommon in these areas, even among tribes which in general are not considered of Albanian origin like the Drobnjaks hence anthroponymy needs to be taken into consideration within its specific historical context. 2020:

cannot be further inferred from the sources, nor can we assume that because Lale switched to Serbian Orthodox, all of Kuçi became immediately Serbian Orthodox, nor is this an argument for linguistic identity. Just a few years earlier, Bolizza in his report recorded them all as

1144:

Can you explain how a historian and lingvist is not a good enough source, but a professor of agriculture from a university of Sarajevo is? I think Bojka is good enough source as was agreed by the rest of the users here when we used her as the newest source for the "Zetski

1899:

The presence of Slavic names does not suggest whatsoever that they were Slavs or necessarily mixed with Slavs (albeit some intermixing in this region should be expected). Pulaha (1974) and other scholars have covered this issue in detail and their arguments can be found

1008:

Actually, Soranzo was literally describing Serbs. In the document itself, and the quotation from the different sources i gave you, he is talking about Serb Uprising in the 16th century, and is describing Serbs that live near the mountains of Albania as some of the most

715:

links to any Montenegrin tribe as in contrast to the tribes of the Brda region, Montenegrin tribes are historically Slavic. The current consensus reflects the idea that idea that identities are non-exclusionary historical constructs, hence both infoboxes are included.--

1037:

Based on this quote, you cannot draw any conclusion about the Kuči themselves or any other tribe because the author doesn't directly mention the origins of any of them and you can't then suppose anything about mixed origins. As a consequence, it would be an example of

496:

None of those reasons included in the origins section of the article. Haplogroups aren't even mentioned in the article as far as I can tell. If you wish to present different opinions regarding the origin of the Kuci, you must back it up with a modern, reliable source.

1472:

This statement which I wrote was wrong in all possible ways. There were never several groups of different patrilineal origins in Kuči. The statement which I then wrote does find support in reliable bibliography, but it's an absolutely wrong statement. If editors like

600:

So the origin is not at all discussed, the writer just said: Kuči, the Albanian tribe, and we can see that there's a theory that Hoti, Kuči and Berisha share the same ancestor but that's the first time i am hearing about it, and even this article is not talking about

611:

albanized the slav population in the region. But, in Vescovato Mondunense, the archbishop records the origin of the tribe with the help of Kelmendi tribal elders. The name of the section is: ORIGINE DELLI CLEMENTINI NEL VESCOVATO MODUNENSE SECONDO LA LORO TRADITIONE.

209:, the reliable sources are quite self-speaking, just check the 2011 census of all the settlements of the Kuči region: most of them declared as Serbs, a minority as Montenegrins, no Bosniaks AFAIK and the Albanians were, as usual, only located in the villages of 1781:

other inhabitants of the settlement bore the surname Mara or are noted as sons of Lleshi and Gjergji, corresponding to the names of Panta's sons: Mar, Llesh, and Gjergj... this indicates that Panta Lleshi lived during the first half of the fifteenth century.

1867:

I agree that the document is not specifically about Kuči, but in my opinion it's integral to the article so that the reader could know that even then the ethnic composition of the tribe was complicated. It pretty much depended on who you met from that

1822:

While Grča is not mentioned in the defters, there's enough time from the Venetian documents to the first defters for him to move and settle in the region of Kuči. There's actually a katun in Kuči, north of the Hotska Korita, called Grča, named after

2089:

As for the rest of the statement, i agree that the slavicization of the tribe lasted a long, long time, even before the tribe formed in the late 15th century, and i agree that many of the tribesman were bilingual, as the tribe itself was mixed.

1725:

2) In 1675. a Serbian Orthodox metropolitan Rufim Boljević, an active protester against Catholic propaganda, converted vojvoda Lale Drekalov from Catholicism to Orthodoxy" quote should be changed not to include the word propaganda, as it can be

1944:

genitive case which in serbo-croatian can either be Nenada or Nenadov. I am interested in the linguistic building of surnames in Albania during that period of time, if you have any sources on that that i could read i would really appreciate it.

889:

Second thing is, why is Ottoman defter from 1485. quoted in the text, yet the image that was there in 2020. is removed? I think we should reinstate the image as it's of interest since it shows first recorded names of now formed Kuči tribe.

2076:

I would assume that's the Catholic part of the tribe. It's hard to know exactly how impactful Lale's change of religion was to that part of the tribe, but again, that's definitely the last time any big figure in the tribe had a change of

1839:

Judging by the historical evidence, if this Nenad was truly the ancestor of the tribe, Panta would rather have been the son of a certain Llesh (hence the village of Pantalesh), not Grča. Regarding Panto Lleshi, Pulaha (1975) writes (my

1775:

1828:

That their father was named Nenad is not evidence that they were Serbs, as has been noted earlier, it was not uncommon for Albanians to adopt Slavic anthroponyms during this period and the names given to his sons were typical of

1729:

3) Even you use the defter of 1485. So if you know that 50% of the tribe was Slavic during the creation of the tribe, how can you state anything else other than that the tribe was mixed during it's nascent stages of development?

266:

reader the fact that they are of Albanian origin, but that through acculturation processes shifted from being Albanian speaking and Catholic to Serbian speaking and Orthodox. And this is perfectly in line with reliable sources.

825:

The Albanian tribes sidebar is relevant for inclusion in the section Origins as per article's content. There is no reasonable argument to remove it. How the members of the tribe identify today is not relevant to this issue. –

1862:

1180:

There was already discussion, the sources were too iffy, so the new ones are added. There has been no edit war, i actually talked about adding some info a month ago. If you want to discuss it, i am willing to talk with you!

885:

Two things i see in the origin section. The first one is the connection between Kuči Drekalovići and Berishe, while we already established that every Kuči member is of a certain haplogroup that leads to Vlachs in the North

1700:

I think it's pretty importnant to have this in the article, and not irrelevant at all. It gives you an insight to what a third party that is neither Catholic nor Orthodox priest thought of the region, basically a "neutral

410:

There are still people who identify as Albanians within the tribe yes, although they are the minority. I have never said that Kuci is an Albanian tribe, but Kuci is of Albanian origin, and that part will stay in the lede.

287:

Berisha tribe. It's either one, or the other, and as we agreed that the first theory is the one generally accepted as Drekalovići and Old Kuči share the same haplogroup, keeping the myth as a fact in the article is wrong.

479:

Peter Kuč migth have been mentioned by the Marko Miljanov in one of his books, but it was never part of the folklore) But using the Mrnjavčević story, or Kastriot story, or any other theory as a fact is just plain wrong.

474:

2. Haplogroups, as we all know that one every nation is only one haplogroup. (We might have to rewrite the borders for the whole Europe though, because right now that's not the case for any other group of people, just

1616:

assume that the haplogroup originated in that population. Nobody is arguing that genes determine ethnicity, only that certain haplogroups are characterised by certain groups - as is understood in population genetics.

1666:

Again, based on what? The only thing you get by using geneology here is just that many members of Kuči tribe share the same ancestor (again, not all of them. Many in the tribe are not E-V13). I'll have to agree with

1951:Институт славяноведения и балканистики (Российская академия наук) - Османская Империя и страны Централной, Восточной и Юго-Восточной Европы в 17 в.. 2(2001) and Павле Ровински - Етнографија Црне Горе, том I (1998) 395:

Fact is, you are claiming that Kuči is an albanian tribe in this talk page, which is clearly lunacy. Albanians are minority in the tribe, even if you can name people identifying as Albanians outside of Koja e Kucit

115:

There's no neutrality here, the tribe is Montenegrin, not Albanian. We are talking about Montenegrin tribe and the reader should be transferred to article talking about other Montenegrin tribes instead of Albanian.

1939:

That could be debatable, as we have no proof of Panto's father, but what we definitely know is that he had son names Llesh. I still prefer the Grča theory, as the name Grča is not really common in the ex-Yugoslav

1857:

So nobody is questioning the existence of Panto, or that Panto was a father of Llesh. I literally stated in one of earlier comments that the village got the name by combining the names of Panto and his oldest son

283:

Article tells you that Peter Kuč is possibly the ancestor. He's most definitely not a leader of the tribe, as the tribe was formed in the 15th century and Peter Kuč was first mentioned in 1330. Dečani chrysobulls.

251:. I have more valuable things to do with my life than argue with multiple brick walls on a site I am volunteering on. Please stop wasting my time because you don’t like what RS bibliography says about the tribe. 1087:

Albanian tribe, and those are used by people as a source. Those sources are terrible, as you can probably find hundreds of books that say "Kuči, a Serb tribe" without actually providing any sources or evidence.

1844:

You misunderstood me, i never stated that Grča was the father of Llesh. Grča was father of Panto, and the rest is pretty much confirmed. Panto had 5 sons, as i stated above: Petar, Đurađ/Gjerg, Tiho, Mara and

589:

For example, in the origin section they have a quote: "Since almost all of them use the Serbian rite and the Illyric language, soon they should be called Slavs, rather than Albanians" and the sources for that

388:

Sure, use the same 17th century and read a different author like Lazaro Soranzo and you will see that he is writing of a region full of Serbs with Albanians in between. He was describing all of the highlander

2072:

Just a few years earlier, Bolizza in his report recorded them all as Of Roman rite are: 490 houses - Chuzzi Albanesi (Albanian Kuçi), commanded by Lale Drecalou (Lale Drekalov) and Nico Raizcou (Niko Rajckov)

1612:

Sure, but this information isn't included in the article itself and so WP:OR isn't really relevant. It is only being brought up in this TP since it corroborates the sources and claims of an Albanian origin.

1772:

is not evidence that they were Serbs, as has been noted earlier, it was not uncommon for Albanians to adopt Slavic anthroponyms during this period and the names given to his sons were typical of Albanians.

2067:

Of course not, but that's the last written "large" change of religion in the tribe. Not a single Vojvoda after Lale changed religion, he is the last and probably the largest one that influenced tribe the

1079:

you cannot draw any conclusion about the Kuči themselves or any other tribe because the author doesn't directly mention the origins of any of them and you can't then suppose anything about mixed origins.

567:

of never having contributed to this page, but have you? I've never seen a single one of your writings that was even remotely constructive on this page, or on those of the other Montenegrin tribes, only

1265:

Now that we have all of that, i don't see the problem. I assume many of the sources given are much better than what some professor of agriculture wrote on some dead website that is given as a ref

79:

I dont think that the article itself is "Part of a series on Albanian tribes" as it's stated in the article, as we are talking about montenegrin tribe, and the article itself should be part of

1203:. It is inaccurate to claim that Kuçi is of mixed origins because it isn't and it really doesn't view itself as such. The reference to Soranzo is inaccurate because Soranzo doesn't write that 166:, it's imperative that you understand how Knowledge (XXG) works. You cannot personally judge whether the Kuçi qualify as an Albanian or Montenegrin tribe, since Knowledge (XXG) relies on what 218: 775:

is wrong, in fact they are known for their close ties with other Brda tribes as well as Malisor tribes, with whom they often allied during the centuries of struggle against Ottoman rule.

989:

here not bearing clear ethnic connotations. This is further suggested by the fact that Soranzo further notes that among these tribes of Serbia, Albanian Catholics formed a large group (

1834:

than Yugoslavs. If you already know that people were already mixing cultures and taking names during 14th century, how can you say that the tribe itself is Albanian at the end of 15th?

909:

who are indeed mentioned as Vlachs in archival sources and the lineage they carry has no close relation to Albanians and it wasn't present in the region during the Paleo-Balkan era.--

1016:

The fact that he mentions Albanians, actually gives you the idea that he was in fact thinking of these tribes as Serbs, and that among them there are some Albanians of Catholic rite.

1522:

3. Bojka and Rasovic have the same idea of origin, Bojka is of course much newer source, and nobody had problem with her, so i assume there's no problem with using them as a source?

1854:

The only son missing is Tiho, but in one of the defters there is a village in Hoti region named Tihomir, so while it's not confirmed, it's possible that he moved before the defter.

1682:

I think the personal name is Niko, as it's short for Nikola. Both Albanians and Serbians use Niko and rarely Nika (at least for a male, Nika is used in Montenegro as a female name)

1318:

If you want to rephrase it, i am all up for that. I just wanted to give some context for the writing of Soranzo, and that context is the Serb Uprising at the end of 16th century.

614:

And the line is: Clemente primo Stipite du di Padre Serviano da Moraccia fiume che scaturisce da Montenegro sopra Cattaro, e di Madre detta Bubesha figlia di Vuijabegna da Cucci.

1245:

Sorry, but while all of Drekalovići are descended from Lale, there are many other in the Kuči tribe who are not. Your other implication and opinion of his origin is irrelevant.

1470:) of the same patrilineal ancestry. Rather, as many other tribes in the region, it formed as consecutive waves of groups settled in the area and formed the Kuči community. 2058:

it's shared with Koja e Kucit, or some North Albanian tribes, but the fact remains, identities are not built around haplogroups and that is definitely not for discussion.

1922:

The presence of Slavic names does not suggest whatsoever that they were Slavs or necessarily mixed with Slavs (albeit some intermixing in this region should be expected).

1064:

You cannot draw such a conclusion from a primary argument because the historical context of the terms used has to be interpreted by modern and reliable secondary sources.

771:

However, when it comes to primary sources starting with the 17th century onwards, the Kuči are largely mentioned as a Slavic Orthodox tribe. And your statement that the

1671:

here, and say that this is only used when there's nothing else to be said. Haplogroups, even subclades are not nationalities. And not every member of this tribe is E-V13

2082:

that in the tribe itself, other than in the region of Trieshi, Kuči are all schismatics and that there are 500 houses strongly opposed to the holy rite of the Vatican.

1517:

In 1675. a Serbian Orthodox metropolitan Rufim Boljević, an active protester against Catholic propaganda, converted vojvoda Lale Drekalov from Catholicism to Orthodoxy

145:

I am sorry to dissapoint, but while ethno-lingustically mixed is correct, the percentage of that mixtures are not enough for you to call this part of Albanian tribes.

1506:

I dont want to go into this as haplogroups != nations, and if we would to draw a line based on them you would get a very, very different map than you have right now.

617:

The translation is: the Kelmendi trace their origin to Stijepo, a Serb from Montenegro, and Bubeša, the daughter of Vujo-beg, a chieftain in the bordering Kuč tribe.

1491:

Sorry, but when you have nothing else to say you go back to genealogy. Did you know that Yugoslav people are not Slavic? I mean, their genealogy says it like that.

1927:

currently Albanian. So i am interested in what period did the tribe stop being Albanian and why is that? Where do you personally draw the line? Religion? Culture?

1291:(Drekalovići) division. Both of them have the same ancestor. When Drekale settled in Kuçi, he was in fact settling among his cousins and nobody was pushed out. -- 511:

Haplogroups are not mentioned in the article, but it's the main argument used here for the Albanian origin, just read the discussion here if you have enough time.

1045:

to deduce such an argument from this specific quote. Soranzo's report as a primary source doesn't disagree with another report which is presented in the article

559:, you're losing your nerve. It was you who imposed the mention of the tribe's Albanian origin in the first sentence last year, assume the consequences of your 310:

It is pretty clear that Petar Kuč is not noted as a potential ancestor, only that he was the head of the tribe during this period - itself a historical fact.

1756:

the oral traditions. Even if he was (certainly a possibility), he did not father Grča - a figure that doesn't appear to be historical. His sons were Gjergj (

1446:. I think that there's not much to discuss any longer because you're trying to gain consensus for changes which truly contradict everything we know today.-- 1067:

So it is interpreted by the second source that actually talks about the Serb uprising and states all the Serb tribes that fought in it, based on L'Ottomano.

1552:

who appears to have been a historical figure. This is based on the fact that sons of Mara are recorded in 1485 in the village of Pantalesh. The patronym

620:

And you won't see me run around Kelmendi talk page and lead section. I might as well cite it and say: "Kelmendi is a historical tribe of Serbian origin"

1397:"Škja". Čergić insinuates that before the arrival of Serbs there was a different layer of Slavic people living there, and Albanians called like that. 357:

Albanians in the Kuči tribe was happening over the centuries, but it's not that the Albanians themselves just said one day "we are going to be Slavs!"

985:

is incorrect. From Soranzo's excerpt it can only be gathered that these tribes inhabited an area which was perceived by the writer as 'Serbia', with

768:

century, with an already mixed Albanian and Slavic anthroponymy, yet almost nothing is said about the tribe as an Albanian one in historical sources.

547:. You and your friends have failed to produce a convincing reason for keeping the mention of the tribe's Albanian origin in the first sentence, per 471:

1. Peter Kuč theory, a possibility that an albanian man from the 14th century and his descendents formed the tribe by the end of the 15th century.

1533:

I love to discuss this with you, and i am willing to as this is really cool, but i would like to first solve first three issues that i mentioned

1330:

So for him, migrations that were happening during the 14th and 15th century consisted of Catholics and Orthodox people, both Slavs and Albanians.

1019:

The inner tribe composition is not stated, but the Soranzo is clear in his opinion of the ethnic composition of the whole region, including Kuci.

794:

Kuçi has no historical links to any Montenegrin tribe as in contrast to the tribes of the Brda region, Montenegrin tribes are historically Slavic

1848:

We know about them, because you can find them in the 1485. defter as you stated. You can find them by their children in the village Pantaljesh.

482:

Most of the oral traditions and church documents will probably lead you back to the 15th century, before that it's all just stories and myths.

1323:породице, да се раселе. I'm not certain to whom he refers because the phrasing is ambiguous but there is no relation to Kuçi in this statement 977:

To begin with, there was no consensus to remove the sidebar. Secondly, at a closer translation and inspection of Soranzo's passage linked by @

956:

Is there anyone against removing the Berishe from the origin section, as we all agree that Old Kuči and Drekalovići share the common ancestry

2023:

Of Roman rite are: 490 houses - Chuzzi Albanesi (Albanian Kuçi), commanded by Lale Drecalou (Lale Drekalov) and Nico Raizcou (Niko Rajckov)

2105: 1792:

As for Rufim Boljević, it could just be said that he actively worked against the Catholic Church's influence and authority in the region.

1872:

As for Rufim Boljević, it could just be said that he actively worked against the Catholic Church's influence and authority in the region.

429:

There, they appear in the surname of Petar Kuč (Albanian: Pjetër Kuçi), an individual from the Albanian katun (Serbian: Katun Arbanasa),

243:

Even in the 17th century, they were considered an Albanian tribe. The more that this drags along, the more it seems to be a case of you

85:

Any opinions? It can be stated that the tribe was part of Albanian katun, but the tribe is Montenegrin so i think it should be changed.

2129: 234:

I am not sure why people cannot simply read the article and find a mound of sources that describe the Albanian origins of the tribe.

1498:

We focus on the primary palaeo-Balkan lineages of modern Albanians – haplogroups E-V13 (27-35%), J2b-Z600 (15%), and R1b-BY611: -->

1768:). He also appears to have fathered a daughter named Nesa who was the widow of a certain Jon Progani. That their father was named 1371:

Let's not let this discussion die out. I hope you have an idea on how to rewrite the article so that we could include new sources

1333:

I also agree with you that Drekalovići are of same origin as Mrnjavčevići, and i support the idea that Drekale was son of Nikeza.

751:

And that is why you have Koja e Kucit page, and there you have "Part of Albanian tribes" in that article. That's completely fine

360:

The population was mixed, saying that Kuči are of one origin or of another would be wrong as people were clearly mixed back then.

1242:

There's not a single brotherhood in Kuçi which is of Slavic origin and most in fact are directly descended from Lale Drekalov.

1206: 339:

What does this have to do with my reply about Petar Kuč? In 1485 over half of the tribe still bore Albanian names by the way.

1071:

If under the Serbs 'many Albanians' are included, then the term 'Serbs' itself is not an ethnic term, but a geographical one.

641:. You have provided no RS bibliography based reasoning to deny or remove the Albanian origin of the tribe. Consensus stands. 392:

Just because you have the author that said one thing, that doesn't change the fact that there are other who say other things.

551:, that's one thing. Now that I've shown you how the Kuči really see themselves today, and it's been that way for centuries, 59: 1642:, nothing more. I would, however, gladly continue this amateur discussion of genetics "genealogy" outside Knowledge (XXG). 696:

that it should be removed, because the Kuči are not an Albanian tribe. And the part of the tribe who identifies as such is

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Didn't say anything against the symbiosis, just that the symbiosis itself is much, much older than the 15th/16th century.

733:

that it should not be removed, because the Kuči is part Albanian to this day and because they are of Albanian origin.

1634:"genetic evidence" as an argument on this talk page. It would be best if you avoided doing so as Knowledge (XXG) is 2128:

Jurišić is a family originating from Kuči, as such Nikola Jurišić Should be added to notable people from the tribe

1808:

It is certain that the tradition of origin from the Mrnjavčevići has no historical basis and is a later fabrication

1752:, and will instead tackle the issues which are relevant to the article itself and could potentially be implemented. 38: 1199:: There's not a single brotherhood in Kuçi which is of Slavic origin and most in fact are directly descended from 831: 353:

It has to, because if haplogroups are not the argument, and Petar Kuč is not the argument, we come to this, names.

1818:

Even if he was (certainly a possibility), he did not father Grča - a figure that doesn't appear to be historical.

1128: 1221:, an active protester against Catholic propaganda, converted vojvoda Lale Drekalov from Catholicism to Orthodoxy 1013:

Clementi, Bjelopavlici and others in the region of Plav, and among them there are many Albanians of Roman rite".

638: 239:

of them use the Serbian rite and the Illyric language, soon they should be called Slavs, rather than Albanians).

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while the conversion of Kuçi from Catholicism is already discussed in the article. The editor who wrote that

659:, but i will provide some documents in the next few days, probably in a separate section for more visibility. 148:

There's more Bosniaks than Albanians in the tribe, yet it would be comical to call this a "Bosniak tribe"...

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Soranzo's report as a primary source doesn't disagree with another report which is presented in the article

1912: 1851:

The numbers they appear at are: 1. Vuksan Marinov, 2. Gojko Đurđev , 43. Nikač Petrov and 64. Gojko Lješev

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Compare the statement which was written and what Soranzo actually writes and you'll see the contradiction.

1281:

Compare the statement which was written and what Soranzo actually writes and you'll see the contradiction.

1054: 998: 944: 845: 344: 315: 136: 106: 1745: 1635: 1095:

century is not as clear as you want to present it. And the sources for the quote are wrong, except one.

607:

So i might actually go through all the sources and see where the people were like: "Meh, this is fine".

855: 827: 1124: 773:

Kuçi has no historical links to any Montenegrin tribe as in contrast to the tribes of the Brda region

47: 17: 597:

lineage back to a common ancestor, whose name they assumed—for example, the Hoti, Kuči, and Berisha"

188:

Sure, let's say that it's neutral to call the ethnic montenegrin/serb tribe part of Albanian tribes.

1749: 1678:

be derived from the personal name Nika, with the addition of the Albanian diminutive suffix -(ë)za.

1668: 1643: 1599: 1512:

1. We need a way to implement Lazzaro's statements into the article, that's why i wanted your help.

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I will most likely link some documents in the talk page, so we could discuss and talk about them.

2027: 1647: 1603: 1478: 1447: 1368: 1292: 1228: 1209:

described the tribes in the region, including Kuči, as mostly Serbian with some Albanian presence

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want to actually engage with such topics they have to learn how to approach reality as it is. --

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I am being civi by even entertaining this pointless conversation any longer. You need to read

541:

please stop wasting my time because you don't like what RS's bibliography says about the tribe

340: 311: 132: 102: 1224: 171: 1214: 502: 456: 416: 271: 569: 560: 244: 1519:" quote should be changed not to include the word propaganda, as it can be misinterpreted. 1639: 1631: 1591: 1443: 1042: 983:'the tribes in the region, including Kuči, as mostly Serbian with some Albanian presence' 697: 248: 167: 2137: 2113: 2099: 2035: 2009:

that this is still being discussed, but there seems to be a need to repeat some topics.

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and others in the region of Plav, and among them there are many Albanians of Roman rite.

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We can change that. Soranzo wrote about the uprising of Serbs. The original quote is:

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You are misconstruing what the article notes about Petar Kuč. This is what it says:

1503:

What are the rest of them? Greeks? Serbs? Is your nationality defined like that?

1464:, when I had little knowledge of the advances in genetic genealogy I wrote that 498: 452: 412: 267: 191:

Not a single bibliography will tell you that, but it's fine, let it be for now.

46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

778:

With these considerations in mind, I maintain that the box should be removed.

1205:

In the 16th century, the Italian traveler Lazaro Soranzo while writing about

170:

bibliography states about the tribe. Either both templates stay up there for

2124:

Why is Nikola Jurisic not included in notable people originating from Kuči ?

2018:

From then on, the Kuči predominantly identified as a Serbian Orthodox tribe.

1439: 1109:

Should we remove two wrong sources that have nothing to do with that quote?

1022:

That's not the only thing you removed, but let's focus on this one for now.

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is also interesting since it appears to be derived from the personal name

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combination of the names Panto and Lesh that gave name to the village.

1885:

There are two or three sources that i can provide for the statement.

1630:

It's not mentioned in the article, but you and others often use this

1722:

1) We need a way to implement Lazzaro's statements into the article

1123:

I can revise your edit and add more sources, probably a newer ones

1227:. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't describe any religion as "propaganda".-- 811:

box and the introduction remain problematic and need to be fixed.

1494:

Did you know that only 30-35% of Albanians have E-V13 haplogroup?

1327:"New Kuči" in this context are both Mrnjavčevići and Drekalovići. 1931:

haplogroup can't be used as an argument against slavic identity.

1638:, you are not on Poreklo or Anthrogenica here and must rely on 25: 2080:

Just half a century later Antonio Vladagni writes to Vatican

1258:

Knowledge (XXG) doesn't describe any religion as "propaganda

953:

It's fine, what about the other thing we were talking about.

2086:

So i assume that Lale had some impact on the tribe itself.

1250:

Kuçi from Catholicism is already discussed in the article.

700:, which is already listed as a specific tribe in the box. 1744:

I'll avoid discussing the genetic evidence here to avoid

991:

trà quali vi sono molti Albanesi, che viuono alla Romana

1560:, with the addition of the Albanian diminutive suffix - 1461: 1598:, or the adoption of the Slava as a family tradition. 981:, the claim that the aforementioned writer described 468:

Two reasons for the inclusion of Albanian origin are:

1764:), and Jon (quite possibly a Venetian corruption of 1662:

the point is that E-BY165837 is an Albanian subclade

655:

I don't see the reason for the beef between you and

451:

I do not understand what you are trying to tell me.

2104:ALBANIANS CAN YOU PLEASE STOP STEALING OUR HISTORY 1785:This information could be of value in the article. 792:Your statement doesn't contradict the statement 306:Dečani monastery, which dates from 1343-1345. 81:https://en.wikipedia.org/Tribes_of_Montenegro 8: 593:1. Albanian historian, i am fine with that. 1148:I would love to hear your opinion on that 586:Even when it's sourced it's sourced badly. 364:(Drekale), and then his son Lale Drekalov 1438:brotherhood of Albanian origin among the 1881:identified as a Serbian Orthodox tribe. 2044:within its specific historical context 2022: 2017: 2010: 1779: 1465: 1287: 1212: 1204: 1046: 982: 793: 772: 662:Stay civil and let's keep discussing! 540: 304: 237: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 280:As the article itself said: possibly. 7: 2026:probably lasted several centuries.-- 563:edits. Furthermore, you're accusing 437:the leader of the Kuči brotherhood. 1907:Which sources do you want to cite? 553:and that's the most important thing 1998:= Gjergj, son of Nenad similar to 1948:Which sources do you want to cite? 1137:I think you did a well enough job. 24: 748:because the Kuči is part Albanian 1712:state that it was already mixed. 29: 465:Here's what i am trying to say. 840:I'll sustain Bato's argument. 426:but Kuci is of Albanian origin 1: 2114:16:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC) 1876:What do you think about this: 1416:rewrite the article together 1049:via a proper modern source. 1075:and "Mountains of Albania". 2153: 2100:21:16, 2 August 2023 (UTC) 2036:20:27, 2 August 2023 (UTC) 1961:20:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC) 1692:irrelevant to the article. 1568:irrelevant to the article. 1207:Serb uprising of 1596–1597 1917:23:35, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1895:22:14, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1802:20:42, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1740:18:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1652:16:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1626:16:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1608:15:51, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1586:14:30, 31 July 2023 (UTC) 1543:12:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC) 1487:11:43, 30 July 2023 (UTC) 1456:11:28, 30 July 2023 (UTC) 1426:20:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC) 1407:19:59, 29 July 2023 (UTC) 1381:11:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC) 1361:18:45, 29 July 2023 (UTC) 1343:20:35, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1301:20:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1275:20:17, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1237:20:07, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1191:20:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1158:17:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1133:16:57, 28 July 2023 (UTC) 1119:21:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC) 1105:11:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC) 1059:11:15, 27 July 2023 (UTC) 1032:06:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC) 1003:02:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC) 850:20:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC) 836:08:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC) 821:08:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC) 806:16:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 788:16:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 761:19:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 743:16:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 725:15:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 710:15:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 201:14:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 184:14:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 158:13:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 141:13:42, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 126:13:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 111:13:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 95:13:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC) 2138:03:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC) 966:17:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 949:16:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 934:16:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 919:16:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 900:11:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC) 867:00:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC) 672:08:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC) 651:23:26, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 633:19:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 604:3. Dead link, cant read. 582:17:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 524:17:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 507:16:39, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 492:16:20, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 461:16:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 447:16:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 421:16:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 406:16:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 374:17:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 349:17:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 335:17:12, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 320:16:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 297:16:08, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 276:15:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 261:15:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 230:12:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC) 174:or none at all. Thanks. 131:one on Albanian tribes. 2016:The proposed statement 1719:But we go back to this: 1351:your opinions on this? 939:to the topic at hand. 247:that are supported by 1466:Kuči is not a tribe ( 42:of past discussions. 1286:Rašović writes that 1223:needs to read about 623:Same logic as here. 2092:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1953:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1887:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1732:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1535:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1509:As for the sources: 1475:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1433:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1418:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1399:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1373:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1353:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1335:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1267:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1183:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1150:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1111:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1097:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1024:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 979:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 958:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 926:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 892:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 753:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 694:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 664:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 625:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 516:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 484:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 439:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 398:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 366:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 327:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 289:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 249:actual bibliography 245:disliking the facts 193:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 164:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 150:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 118:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 87:NekSeOvajVijekGordi 1083:from 17th century. 1748:as suggested by @ 1590:This falls under 1515:2. I agree that " 1411:Also, thanks to @ 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 18:Talk:Kuči (tribe) 2144: 2083: 2073: 2064: 2054: 2045: 1923: 1882: 1873: 1864: 1841: 1830: 1819: 1809: 1708: 1693: 1679: 1663: 1518: 1500: 1444:reliable sources 1436: 1389:Quote itself is: 1315: 1215:Serbian Orthodox 555:, also still by 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 2152: 2151: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2126: 2081: 2071: 2061: 2051: 2042: 1921: 1879: 1871: 1861: 1837: 1826: 1816: 1806: 1726:misinterpreted. 1704: 1689: 1675: 1660: 1516: 1497: 1430: 1314:Catholic faith. 1312: 1174: 1125:NaBesmrtnomVisu 639:WP:DROPTHESTICK 434: 77: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 2150: 2148: 2125: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2106:110.175.35.134 2087: 2084: 2078: 2074: 2069: 2065: 2059: 2055: 2049: 2046: 2039: 2038: 2014: 2003: 1986: 1985: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1978: 1977: 1976: 1975: 1974: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1949: 1945: 1941: 1937: 1932: 1928: 1924: 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612: 608: 605: 602: 598: 594: 591: 587: 538: 537: 536: 535: 534: 533: 532: 531: 530: 529: 528: 527: 526: 512: 480: 476: 472: 469: 466: 432: 427: 393: 390: 386: 385: 384: 383: 382: 381: 380: 379: 378: 377: 376: 361: 358: 354: 308: 302: 284: 281: 241: 235: 203: 189: 146: 76: 75:Origin section 73: 70: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2149: 2140: 2139: 2135: 2131: 2123: 2115: 2111: 2107: 2103: 2102: 2101: 2097: 2093: 2088: 2085: 2079: 2075: 2070: 2066: 2060: 2056: 2050: 2047: 2041: 2040: 2037: 2033: 2029: 2028:Maleschreiber 2024: 2019: 2015: 2013: 2008: 2004: 2001: 1997: 1996:Gjergj Nenada 1994: 1993: 1991: 1988: 1987: 1962: 1958: 1954: 1950: 1946: 1942: 1938: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1914: 1910: 1906: 1902: 1898: 1897: 1896: 1892: 1888: 1884: 1878: 1875: 1870: 1866: 1860: 1856: 1853: 1850: 1847: 1843: 1840:translation): 1836: 1832: 1825: 1821: 1815: 1811: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1787: 1784: 1782: 1778: 1776:translation): 1774: 1771: 1767: 1763: 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1217:metropolitan 1216: 1210: 1208: 1202: 1201:Lale Drekalov 1198: 1195: 1194: 1193: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1179: 1178:Maleschreiber 1171: 1159: 1155: 1151: 1147: 1143: 1139: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1130: 1126: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1116: 1112: 1108: 1106: 1102: 1098: 1093: 1089: 1085: 1081: 1077: 1073: 1069: 1066: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1056: 1052: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1029: 1025: 1021: 1018: 1015: 1011: 1007: 1006: 1005: 1004: 1000: 996: 992: 988: 984: 980: 967: 963: 959: 955: 952: 951: 950: 946: 942: 937: 936: 935: 931: 927: 922: 921: 920: 916: 912: 911:Maleschreiber 908: 903: 901: 897: 893: 888: 884: 868: 864: 860: 857: 853: 851: 847: 843: 839: 838: 837: 833: 829: 824: 823: 822: 818: 814: 809: 808: 807: 803: 799: 798:Maleschreiber 795: 791: 790: 789: 785: 781: 777: 774: 770: 766: 762: 758: 754: 750: 746: 745: 744: 740: 736: 732: 731:Maleschreiber 728: 727: 726: 722: 718: 717:Maleschreiber 713: 712: 711: 707: 703: 699: 695: 691: 673: 669: 665: 661: 658: 654: 653: 652: 648: 644: 640: 636: 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1765: 1761: 1757: 1746:WP:NOTAFORUM 1636:WP:NOTAFORUM 1618:Lezhjani1444 1578:Lezhjani1444 1561: 1557: 1553: 1549: 1467: 1349:Lezhjani1444 1196: 1175: 1051:Lezhjani1444 995:Lezhjani1444 990: 986: 976: 941:Lezhjani1444 854:Agree with @ 842:AlexBachmann 729:Agree with @ 552: 543:Please stay 431: 430: 341:Lezhjani1444 312:Lezhjani1444 133:Lezhjani1444 103:Lezhjani1444 84: 78: 65: 43: 37: 1213:In 1675. a 1172:New sources 36:This is an 2063:identity. 1829:Albanians. 1760:), Lazër ( 1550:Mara Ponti 1462:early 2020 101:accuracy. 2077:religion. 1440:Drobnjaci 1142:Ktrimi991 1009:fearsome. 907:Drobnjaci 643:Botushali 572:pushing. 557:MOS:FIRST 549:MOS:FIRST 253:Botushali 207:Botushali 176:Botushali 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 2007:WP:FORUM 1750:Krisitor 1669:Krisitor 1644:Krisitor 1600:Krisitor 1554:Nikezići 1460:Back in 1039:WP:SYNTH 987:Seruiani 886:Albania. 813:Krisitor 780:Krisitor 702:Krisitor 657:Krisitor 574:Krisitor 545:WP:CIVIL 433:possibly 222:Krisitor 1990:Comment 1900:online. 1868:region. 1762:Lazzaro 1596:zadruga 1413:Jingiby 1225:WP:NPOV 1197:Comment 859:Durraz0 735:Durraz0 565:Khirurg 389:tribes. 211:Fundina 172:WP:NPOV 39:archive 2005:It is 1863:above. 1858:Llesh. 1845:Llesh. 1758:Giergi 1145:zbor". 570:WP:POV 561:WP:POV 499:Alltan 453:Alltan 413:Alltan 268:Alltan 2068:most. 1947:: --> 1934:: --> 1838:: --> 1827:: --> 1817:: --> 1807:: --> 1770:Nenad 1705:: --> 1701:pov". 1697:rite. 1690:: --> 1676:: --> 1674:: --> 1661:: --> 1640:WP:RS 1632:WP:OR 1592:WP:OR 1562:(ë)za 1468:pleme 1321:: --> 1305:: --> 1257:: --> 1248:: --> 1241:: --> 1090:: --> 1078:: --> 1070:: --> 1063:: --> 1043:WP:OR 747:: --> 601:it... 475:Kuči) 425:: --> 168:WP:RS 16:< 2134:talk 2110:talk 2096:talk 2032:talk 1957:talk 1913:talk 1891:talk 1823:him. 1798:talk 1766:Gjon 1736:talk 1648:talk 1622:talk 1604:talk 1582:talk 1558:Nika 1539:talk 1483:talk 1452:talk 1422:talk 1403:talk 1377:talk 1357:talk 1339:talk 1297:talk 1271:talk 1233:talk 1187:talk 1154:talk 1129:talk 1115:talk 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