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necessitates caution. As noted previously, Arnold et al.91 found that although permafrost contains a wealth of well-preserved eDNA, the favourable characteristics of perennially frozen ground increases the likelihood for allochthonous organics to survive transport and be redeposited within younger strata. ...Although we acknowledge that the signals for late megafaunal persistence should be interpreted with careful skepticism, and require additional supporting evidence for verification (particularly given early
Holocene thaw unconformities97–99 in the Klondike as identified at Upper Goldbottom and Upper Quartz100), these signals are reasonable and worthy of further study for the following reasons...
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467:. Obviously we would consider the pre-1800s of the United States as "Americas", just like we consider pre 1947 India and Pakistan together. Researches were not that advanced in those times, we generally use the term "Americas", and the United States is probably the most populated country of whole Americas, thus it is usual to mention these facts whenever we are discussing about the history of the United States.
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section contains a note referencing a hypothesis that North
American horses survied the ice age. The reference for this note is an article published in 1991. This older article has since been supplanted by a 2017 doctoral dissertation which contains a wide variety of evidence supporting the theory of
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Article thoughts: What is the goal of this article? Culture, population or...? I'm kind of concerned that it is not focused on anything in particular. However, if the article creators want to clarify where you want to go, I'd be glad to step in and assist. I just fear some sort of duplication of
560:
It took several years for the scientific community to accept hard evidence that horse fossils in the
Americas predated all horse fossils found elsewhere in the world. Significant changes in theory do not come easily, and it will probably also take years for the scientific community to accept recent
909:
Evidence of a cryptic refugium - The persistence of Equus and
Mammuthus until ~9200 cal BP and perhaps as late as ~5700 cal BP (Fig. 2), as suggested by our sedaDNA records, lies well beyond the last dated macrofossils for these taxa (Fig. 7). However, interpreting cryptic populations with sedaDNA
556:
In her doctoral dissertation, Dr. Yvette
Running Horse Collin draws on a broad base of evidence including early European reports, art on pre-Columbian structures, fossils, and DNA. Her evidence is far too significant and extensive to be easily dismissed. Her arguments are very convincing regarding
539:
All megafawna in
Australia Asia Europe and America's disappeared at identical times that highly advanced large hunting stone spear heads were invented or appeared. The idea that all megafawna somehow suddenly disappeared after millions of years due to "weather" is simply not credible in 2018. Read
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I agree with Hannes. Also, the material itself is not peer reviewed. There is some new evidence for genetic interchange prior to extinction between
Eurasian and American horse populations, giving some credence to the "reintroduction" rather than the "invasive species" argument, but there is zero
561:
compilations of evidence that horses never did become extinct in the
Americas. I find Dr. Collin's argument credible that scientists have resisted claims that the horse did not become extinct in the Americas, choosing instead to favor only evidence that supports their favorite theory.
817:(an extremely new technique). They note there are many reasons why sedaDNA analysis can be very inaccurate, and they also give a few reasons why they think the evidence should actually be considered credible and worth investigating further. They are not claiming that there
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So there are not secondary sources nor consensus in the field that the horse survived until 5000 BP and even the researchers in the primary source are very cautious about this claim in their article, the strongest claim they make is that they "perhaps" survived that long.
564:
It is only fitting that the Native
American views and research also be presented to the reader, even if it is not presented as the current prevailing theory. Dr. Collin's work is of such significance to Native Americans and to the world that it fully deserves this credit.
821:
a ghost range, but rather that it is a possibility worth considering in future research – which is also different from it being a possibility worth considering for people not doing research. This is why it's good to remember that an individual research paper is a
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Native
Americans have disputed the theory that horses became extinct in the Americas thousands of years before Europeans began visiting. In her doctoral dissertation, Yvette Running Horse Collin Ph.D. presented evidence that horses never became extinct in the
442:. Wondering if the article could be titled "Horses in the Americas" or "Horses in North America" - much horse history in the USA comes via Mexico... and a small Canadian section on current population and such would not be bloat... Thoughts?
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I am removing this hypothesis from the article. "It has been suggested" not in any peer-reviewed publication, and only reported on by fringe media, and only endorsed by a fringe academic to counter the "invasive species" argument.
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The Relationship Between the Indigenous Peoples of the Americas and the Horse: Deconstructing a Eurocentric Myth, May 2017 (Doctoral dissertation by Yvette Running Horse Collin Ph.D. at the University of Alaska Fairbanks)
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claims that horses survived in Alaska and the Yukon until around 5700 years ago, millenia after they were thought to have gone extinct in that region. Should this article be updated to account for this new information?
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Summary - There is also a consistent, multi-site signal of late persistence for Equus and Mammuthus, perhaps surviving some 7000 years longer than their last dated macrofossils in eastern Beringia would
862:
For people interested, there is a concurrent article from Feb 2022 that assembles mitochondrial DNA and provides some phylogeny on some of these samples (the youngest being 12,000 years old) in this
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for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below.
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651:; but it's enough to suggest that Collin's claims should be treated with skepticism. Unless there are other authorities that corroborate Collin's position, I'd say it falls squarely in
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these are primary sources and we should attempt to rely on peer-reviewed secondary sources whenever possible, and doctoral dissertations are not peer-reviewed. Since this is a very
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places the samples into a tree that also includes current Eurasian horses. The data shows a separate clade of North American horses with high bootstrap support (100%). --
370:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge's coverage of articles relating to horses, asses, zebras, hybrids, equine health, equine sports, etc. Please visit the
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438:. I could see a good "History" section working, though, particularly the issues of extinction of the ancestral horses in the Americas and the return via the
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Murchie et. al. (2021) does not "claim that horses survived ... until around 5700 years ago." They say that they found evidence of the late persistence of
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Hmm. I see how you structured that one and it is an interesting article. I think that's a useful direction. Where would you most like some assistance?
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point of view I would be careful of including this unless we can find further discussion of this viewpoint in peer-reviewed literature. --
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has a bit of historic material as well, perhaps some of the articles on the various Colonial Spanish Horse breeds may also be useful (
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the many assumptions, biases, and holes in the prevailing theory of extinction followed by the reintroduction of horses from Europe.
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and should only be cited in WP if it's either particularly expedient to do so or unusually necessary (or in niche academic fields).
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Thanks. I hadn’t noticed this although I’ve been discussing it with Carl on the Fabook group Fraudulent archaeology wall of shame.
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https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/yes-world-there-were-horses-in-native-culture-before-the-settlers-came-JGqPrqLmZk-3ka-IBqNWiQ
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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real evidence that horses survived Ice Age extinction, and attempts to do the latter take away credence from the former.
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It might be a good idea to wait to see if there are comments on the article. I think it's cited
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Thank you for your suggestion, however at this point I only see a doctoral dissertation and per
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There's a critical discussion of Collin's claims by archaeologist Carl Feagans in his blog at
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Yes, I would remove it. This claim is clearly not even support even by the primary source:
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