907:
My only concern whether this is jargon or not. If it's not jargon, it's probably fine. If it oversteps the line of jargon, I think it needs writing in layman's
English. I'm not sure this is enough to fail it as a GA, but personally I wouldn't like an FA (and so this is why I'm still divided) to have such wording, which isn't entirely clear to the average reader. I'll let you decide what your own opinion is while you correct the other two queries I have, while I seek a second opinion from another GA reviewer.
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To be honest, I nearly failed this first time round, but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and time to improve the article. The work since has been fantastic. Superb work, both to Maxim and PeterSymonds, you fully deserve this GA pass. And I have also just noticed, the article was merely
845:
Regarding the lead. A break is needed, otherwise it's a big chunk of text for a reader to wade through, especially at the start of the article. Remember, you need to grab the reader's attention, and it's no more important than the lead section. On that score here are a few suggestions how to work it.
1549:
As for taking the article on further, I reckon a bit more research would be needed to try plug any gaps in Holmes' career, and some copy-edit to the text to add some more juice to the stats. Otherwise, if you did want to push this article towards FAC, I would suggest a peer review and maybe a formal
617:
My turn to be brutally honest—I honestly don't know how to address this concern. It currently looks fine to me, and I don't how to fix it as I don't see it as broken... Perhaps it's like regional variation of
English: it's how it's said in North America, and not how in the rest of the world. If it's
361:
His third one was with the Arenas, as he won Cups in 1913–14 (Blueshirts), 1915–16 (Metropolitans), 1917–18 (Arenas), and 1924–25 (V. Cougars). He was loaned around North
America in the 1917–18 season, and through two loans, by the Monteral Wanderers and the Metropolitans, he ended with the Arenas.
906:
Regarding the one sticking point between us, I still don't like the wording. If I didn't know ice hockey was a team sport, I would say the wording "In the NHA playoffs, Holmes won one out of two games" suggested Holmes won one individual match. I totally understand you're using correct terminology.
394:
At the moment, it is still a fair way short of GA standard. I don't think it has the breadth of coverage necessary, and doesn't appear to be neutral. There's plenty of details on his successes, but less on the less than successful seasons. It needs a lot of work doing. I'll keep it on hold for more
986:
I've just done a google search, and it seems he was nicknamed Happy or Hap Holmes. I'm not sure at this stage it needs a reference. I would try add it as high as possible. Even maybe the first few words of "Amateur career", something like "Harry Holmes, nicknamed Hap or Happy, started playing ..."
331:
Note 2: Well, the teams reached the
Stanley Cup by winning their respective leagues. I've added a bit more info on seasons when his team did not reach the SC. To be honest, the four Seattle seasons were downright boring, with nearly-identical stats and results. I've added about 1000 bytes of prose
857:
Have a read through the rest of the lead to try trim through some of the less necessary details. The most obvious to me is some of his amateur career. I would change the second and third sentences to: "Holmes played as an amateur for three season with the
Parkdale Canoe Club, before he began his
1201:
Note: This is not a second opinion, just my own thoughts on the issue. I personally feel that they should be kept as they are, simply because that's how he played them, that's how his team won. Adding too much context may fill the article with unnecessary information. I write this as a DYK
410:
The article would tend to focus on his four
Stanley Cup wins because it's what he's noted for, it's the most important parts of his career and because there's the most info on that. I'd prefer you make less vague suggestions for improvement. And I absolutely do not understand how it is not
1202:
copyeditor, someone who has never played ice hockey, but the correct meaning seemed clear as I was reading. Perhaps brief context could be established (a short explanation of how it's done somewhere, perhaps) but too much may be cluttering. That's just my 2p. Best,
1216:
Now, I was wondering that myself somewhere, and so the fact you've instantly made the same suggestion is enough for me. Maxim; can you try add a footnote the first time such a statement is made to explain how ice hockey stats work in connection to goaltenders?
596:
I understand your note about goaltenders records but in prose "Holmes won all three games", etc. doesn't make sense. Unless they actively relate to statistical records, it needs changing, because otherwise it doesn't make sense to non-Ice Hockey fans.
853:
I would be tempted to mention his four
Stanley Cup wins in the first par. It's presumably one of the biggest things about him winning so many Stanley Cups, hence something like "Harry Holmes was ... goaltender, who won four Stanley
98:"Holmes played a game for the Toronto Tecumsehs, winning it, letting in three goals against." this sentence is a bit informal; try something like "Holmes played a game for the Toronto Tecumsehs, conceding three goals in a x–3 win."
311:
There's an awful lot to do. Particularly the article needs expanding to provide details other then Holmes' Stanley Cup career. I will put it on hold for a week, but the article needs serious attention to get become a good article.
293:
The playing career section details are concentrated on Holmes' career in the
Stanley Cup. Do you have more details about how his teams reached the Stanley Cup and details about seasons when they did not reach the Stanley Cup?
849:
The break doesn't need to be in two equal pars. The best place at the moment to break it appears to be after his retirement, and leave his playing style, coaching and posthumous induction to the hall of fame into the second
265:
It says so in the paragraph—his bald head was an enticing target to people. Helmets are to prevent head injuries, while the goalie mask is designed to protect the goalie's face as a heavy rubber projectile is shot at
544:
It does need a break. I'll have a look tomorrow, because I suspect there may be a better way of doing it by keeping relevant material together, rather than a simple break half-way through a chronology of his career.
177:"the series was abandoned tied 2–2–1" I guess this means two wins each, with one tie/draw? I would expand it to say so to be honest, because it's probably not entirely obvious to those who don't follow ice hockey.
885:
I'm fine with that. Though if you were to try take this article towards FAC, the first par will almost certainly need some expansion. Though the lead is now great, and it's something to think about in the future.
658:
Because the first ref gives the date, while the second one gives more general details. The intention was to use two sources, but since both of the are from the Hockey Hall of Fame, I've deleted the second one.
327:
Note 1: When a goaltender, anyways in hockey it's referred as so, and in North
America, is playing when his team wins a game, it is referred to as a goaltender having won the game, or having posted a so-and-so
171:
In those days, teams only carried one goaltender, so they needed to loan one if their regular one was injured. Or, the Arenas simply needed a goalie as they were an expansion team and
Seattle loaned Holmes to
58:
No worries at all. I guessed it might be something like this, but when the first ref I checked was correct, I didn't quite understand the need for the rest of the refs. I'd rather have too many than too few.
1179:
A reader who doesn't understand Ice Hockey and may feel "Holmes played two games, losing one and tying one" that it is actually an individual part of the game, similar to how say team chess games work.
281:
The previous revisions of the article said that Holmes died in Florida while on vacation. I haven't been able to find anything to back that up. Should I add a passing mention in the end when he died?
477:
Try as best as you can. Remember it's GA not FA, so fair represenation is enough for a pass. At the moment, I think it looks like a fan-based article, rather than one done with a more neutral eye.
603:
Being brutally honest, I simply don't like it at the moment. It looks wrong, and is very unappealing to a non-Ice Hockey reader. GA and FAs really ought to be inclusive to all readers.
439:
I agree that concentrating on the Stanley Cup wins is going to happen, and rightly so. But at the moment, it appears the rest of his career has been overlooked far too much.
1111:
Problem is, where's the best place to split the lead up? There's no really good place without having disogranized paragraph or separating a few sentences from the end.
948:
If you can try find a full answer and reference, while it remains on hold, that would be smashing. I wondered the other day what "Hap" meant and forgot to mention it.
1183:
I'm unsure whether such statements are simply terminology or jargon, and whether they are fine to be kept as they are or should be re-written into layman's terms.
305:
There's really not a lot on him, especially his personal life. That'd be one of my primary reasons that I'm only shooting for GA status with this one, and not FA.
201:"The only draw of the series was a scoreless affair; after playing 20 minutes of overtime, referee Mickey Ion called off the game." Why was the game called off?
358:
I'm confused by the statement that he 'won the Stanley Cup four times, with four different teams.' I find the reference to his third win, where was his fourth?
217:"Holmes played the next four seasons with the Metropolitans, but failed to make the Stanley Cup final." Do you have any more details about these four seasons?
833:
is polishing the prose, as I've edited and created and edited created (...) the entire article so much that I don't think I can pick out problems that well.
262:"As a player, Holmes wore a baseball cap in net to cover his head from spectators from spitting tobacco," I presume this was before players wore helmets?
247:"as Holmes won only 30 out of his 85 appearances." this should be as "as Detroit won only 30 games during Holmes' 85 appearances" or something like that.
1575:
article. I think doing that will really help this article along. Thanks again for the very exhaustive review (it's bigger than the article itself O_O).
1176:
A reader who understand Ice Hockey but doesn't know the above fact, and so thinks "Holmes won all three games" should read "Toronto won all three games"
924:
It possibly may be short for HapPY Holmes, otherwise it's just a nickname... I haven't found any explanation, but I've found mentions of Happy Holmes.
655:"On January 4, 1918," Why does the reference only refer to the date? Surely it refers to the whole sentence, since the reference says about the loan.
121:"in the Stanley Cup final, Holmes won all three games and finished with a 2.59 goals-against average." It wasn't just Holmes who won the games.
1162:"In the Stanley Cup finals, Holmes posted a 3–1 record with a 2.75 goals-against average, en route to the Metropolitans' only Stanley Cup win."
733:
A couple more need doing. Basically anything with a normal numeric figure and then a unit, I think it's mainly 3.45 goals-per-game, etc, now.
783:
I'm not a fan because it looks like a random list of players. If they are relevant to his player, they should be linked in the main article.
1284:
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1155:
I would like a second GA reviewer to decide on a discussion myself and the nominator have had regarding the sort of lines as stated below:
1488:
662:
There's no need to delete one, if you feel it needs two. Simply put both at the end of the sentence, unless you do feel one is enough.
160:"in the finals, Holmes posted a 3–1 record with a 2.75 goals-against average." Again, it wasn't Holmes who posted a 3ndash;1 record.
453:
Okie, I'll fatten up the article by describing all of his seasons (although it will rely all on the "stats" ref. Will that be good?
1371:
193:"Hall eventually died in a Seattle hospital." It's not massively important but do you have more details, e.g. a date, about this.
618:
like that, the article should stick status quo, as it's a matter of using Canadian English about an article related to Canada.
44:
got it wrong, and as it's a very important source in the article, I felt I had to use a lot of other source to back the DOB up.
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827:
It's a vast improvement. Great work. But I still think the prose section could be brushed up to make it more engaging.
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185:"however, did not wish to accept the Cup by default." This is missing a word, presumably "Montreal did not wish ..."
716:
I notice you've done this. But apologies, it's only for numerals, and doesn't need to be done for 6–7 record, etc.
1337:
232:"posting a 3–1 record with a 2.00 goals-against average in the finals," Again, Holmes didn't post a 3–1 record.
204:
It's at the ref's discretion whether to continue a game that's been a draw after 60 minutes of regulation play.
209:"with Holmes posting a 2–3 record with a 3.00 goals-against average." Again Holmes didn't post a 2–3 record.
1173:
An Ice Hockey fan, who knows as stated above, that goaltenders' records are used to cite the team's record.
83:
to sum up the article. I would say who he played for and what years his career was active for a start off.
37:
Why do you need six references for his name and birth details? The first one I checked backed up the info.
1206:
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1159:"in the Stanley Cup final, Holmes won all three games and finished with a 2.59 goals-against average."
559:
I'm just putting it out there, but I think the single paragraphs flows well—why split it into two?
41:
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1165:"Holmes played two games, losing one and tying one, ending up with a 1.79 goals-against average."
780:
His contemporaries. It was an idea that suddenly popped into my head. Is it a good idea or not?
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Do you have any details about his early life? Where he was born? How he got into ice hockey?
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No worries about getting another user to polish the prose. That's often the best way.
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Also, this may be a discussion for an FAC submission, rather than GAN nomination.
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I've found mentions of him as Happy Holmes, problem is, what section to stick in?
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PS. if there are too many, feel free to either remove/or suggest removal of some.
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a stub, just a week ago. Tremendous work all round, very, very well done.
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For three seasons, and one Stanley Cup win, this section is a bit short.
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professional career in the 1912–13 season with the Toronto Blueshirts."
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Numbers and their units should have a non-breaking space, e.g. 22 .
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I've actually split it into three paragraphs instead. Take a look.
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My own feeling is such statements can be interpreted three ways.
152:"In his sophomore season" Is there a wikilink for "sophomore"?
491:
I significantly expanded it. Feel free to take another look.
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since the start of the review, so I hope I covered that.
910:
One other quick question. Why is he called Hap Holmes?
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I think you should include details of his death here?
541:A decent summary of the entire article now. Done.
1093:By the way, I'd split the lead into two pars per
1056:Replied to concern at 00:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC).
335:First replies done at 00:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC).
1571:After my vacation, I'm looking at writing the
113:How / why did he join the Toronto Blueshirts?
1041:Hopefully not so much to do now. Keep at it.
8:
1487:(images are tagged and non-free images have
777:What does the "see also" section refer to?
147:He jumped his contract. :p I added that in.
168:Why was he loaned to the Toronto Arenas.
730:Done, albeit with some difficulties ;-)
144:Why did he leave Toronto for Seattle?
600:It's directly related to statistics.
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1482:, where possible and appropriate.
116:Most likely he was signed by them.
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1436:Fair representation without bias
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1231:That's a brilliant suggestion.
86:Expanded. Hope it's better now.
395:text and details to be added.
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1037:Arbitrary section break (3)
840:Arbitrary section break (2)
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797:OK, I zapped the section.
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511:22:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
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382:12:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
322:22:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
69:20:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
535:Needs expanding now per
1565:Thanks for the pass!!!
1294:reasonably well written
390:Arbitrary section break
1501:(appropriate use with
188:Seattle didn't. Fixed.
40:See the talkpage. The
1573:Seattle Metropolitans
1476:It is illustrated by
1428:neutral point of view
1392:broad in its coverage
1489:fair use rationales
42:Hockey Hall of Fame
1333:factually accurate
591:Toronto Blueshirts
250:Please see note 1.
235:Please see note 1.
220:Please see note 2.
212:Please see note 1.
163:Please see note 1.
132:Please see note 2.
124:Please see note 1.
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88:
87:
76:
75:
74:
73:
72:
71:
51:
50:
49:
48:
45:
34:
33:
28:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1607:
1596:
1593:
1589:
1582:
1574:
1569:
1564:
1563:
1562:
1561:
1557:
1553:
1547:
1537:
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1506:
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1492:
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1484:
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1475:
1469:
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1461:
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1396:
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1375:
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1359:
1347:
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1330:
1324:
1323:
1316:
1314:
1302:
1298:
1297:
1295:
1291:
1290:
1287:for criteria)
1286:
1282:
1280:
1276:
1275:
1271:
1263:
1260:
1256:
1249:
1240:
1230:
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1199:
1198:
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1189:
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1175:
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1164:
1161:
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1140:
1132:
1129:
1125:
1118:
1110:
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1104:
1100:
1096:
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1090:
1086:
1082:
1078:
1077:
1074:
1070:
1063:
1055:
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1053:
1052:
1048:
1044:
1036:
1022:
1019:
1015:
1008:
1000:
999:
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994:
990:
985:
984:
983:
980:
976:
969:
961:
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951:
947:
946:
945:
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938:
931:
923:
922:
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917:
913:
909:
905:
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893:
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883:
882:
879:
875:
868:
860:
859:
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848:
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844:
843:
839:
832:
829:
828:
826:
818:
815:
811:
804:
796:
795:
794:
790:
786:
782:
781:
779:
778:
776:
768:
765:
761:
754:
746:
745:
744:
740:
736:
732:
731:
729:
727:
723:
719:
715:
714:
712:
711:
707:
706:
697:
694:
690:
683:
675:
674:
673:
669:
665:
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632:
625:
616:
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610:
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573:
566:
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556:
552:
548:
543:
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528:
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476:
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467:
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450:
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438:
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433:
429:
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414:
409:
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402:
398:
389:
383:
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376:
369:
360:
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334:
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315:
304:
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296:
295:
292:
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287:
286:
280:
279:
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276:
272:
271:
264:
263:
261:
260:
257:Playing style
256:
255:
249:
248:
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245:
241:
240:
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219:
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161:
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154:
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151:
146:
145:
143:
142:
138:
137:
131:
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128:
123:
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120:
115:
114:
112:
111:
107:
106:
100:
99:
97:
96:
92:
91:
85:
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78:
77:
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66:
62:
57:
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55:
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53:
52:
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39:
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36:
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31:
30:
26:
19:
1576:
1548:
1544:
1527:
1521:
1500:
1486:
1477:
1459:
1453:
1435:
1426:
1408:
1398:
1391:
1369:
1355:
1346:(references)
1345:
1336:
1332:
1310:
1300:
1293:
1277:
1272:Final review
1243:
1238:
1204:PeterSymonds
1185:
1182:
1168:
1154:
1112:
1057:
1040:
1002:
963:
925:
862:
831:PeterSymonds
798:
748:
677:
619:
560:
492:
454:
416:
393:
363:
336:
310:
1550:copy edit.
297:See note 2.
1338:verifiable
1528:Pass/Fail
1409:(focused)
525:Re-review
27:GA Review
1151:Resolved
227:Victoria
1552:Peanut4
1522:Overall
1301:(prose)
1219:Peanut4
1188:Peanut4
1099:Peanut4
1095:WP:LEAD
1081:Peanut4
1043:Peanut4
989:Peanut4
950:Peanut4
912:Peanut4
888:Peanut4
785:Peanut4
747:Fixed.
735:Peanut4
718:Peanut4
708:General
664:Peanut4
605:Peanut4
547:Peanut4
537:WP:LEAD
479:Peanut4
441:Peanut4
413:neutral
397:Peanut4
328:record.
314:Peanut4
288:General
242:Detroit
139:Seattle
108:Toronto
81:WP:LEAD
61:Peanut4
1587:(talk)
1479:images
1454:stable
1452:It is
1430:policy
1390:It is
1331:It is
1292:It is
1281:review
1254:(talk)
1208:(talk)
1123:(talk)
1068:(talk)
1013:(talk)
974:(talk)
936:(talk)
873:(talk)
854:Cups."
809:(talk)
759:(talk)
688:(talk)
630:(talk)
571:(talk)
503:(talk)
465:(talk)
427:(talk)
374:(talk)
347:(talk)
196:Added.
101:Fixed.
1580:Maxim
1283:(see
1247:Maxim
1116:Maxim
1061:Maxim
1006:Maxim
967:Maxim
929:Maxim
866:Maxim
802:Maxim
752:Maxim
681:Maxim
623:Maxim
564:Maxim
496:Maxim
458:Maxim
420:Maxim
367:Maxim
340:Maxim
180:Done.
172:them.
155:Done.
16:<
1556:talk
1335:and
1285:here
1239:Done
1223:talk
1192:talk
1103:talk
1085:talk
1047:talk
993:talk
954:talk
916:talk
892:talk
850:par.
789:talk
739:talk
722:talk
668:talk
609:talk
551:talk
530:Lead
483:talk
445:talk
401:talk
318:talk
266:him.
65:talk
32:Lead
1313:MoS
1558:)
1530::
1524::
1507::
1499:b
1493::
1485:a
1462::
1456:.
1438::
1432:.
1411::
1407:b
1401::
1397:a
1394:.
1376::
1372:OR
1368:c
1362::
1354:b
1348::
1344:a
1341:.
1317::
1309:b
1303::
1299:a
1296:.
1279:GA
1242:.
1225:)
1194:)
1105:)
1097:.
1087:)
1049:)
995:)
956:)
918:)
894:)
791:)
741:)
724:)
670:)
611:)
553:)
485:)
447:)
415:.
403:)
320:)
67:)
1554:(
1505:)
1491:)
1374:)
1370:(
1360:)
1315:)
1311:(
1221:(
1190:(
1101:(
1083:(
1045:(
991:(
952:(
914:(
890:(
787:(
737:(
720:(
666:(
607:(
549:(
481:(
443:(
399:(
316:(
63:(
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