2410:, I have to say I'm very unhappy you've essentially reopened the proposed move because you disagree with its conclusion. It's not original research to conclude that the terms "Harry S Truman National Historic Site" and "Harry S. Truman National Historic Site" refer to the exact same institution, and pick one to use consistently in the article here. The official name doesn't have a period, true—that's why I supported your proposal to consistently leave it out. But we don't always have to use the official name; in this case, the community decided not to, and no one's getting hanged for that, the law notwithstanding. I really don't find this debate productive, so I'm going to rest my case now. But I do hope you keep in mind that your contributions, valuable though they are, don't entitle you to veto decisions you don't like. —
2188:"The second ref added (the law) also sets both the park and president's name without the period. It would be more compelling to cite a source that actually makes the distinction between the usual way of styling a name and the way the park's name is styled; or a source that acknowledges that the period is omitted for a reason, not just arbitrarily styled that way by the publisher or something. And if there's something "legal" about the missing period, a source to that effect would be nice, rather than just one that has it styled that way in a legal doc. Some other official government docs (like the Library of Congress topic listings) do use the period, so maybe they didn't get the memo.
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North, I sympathize with you on the "official name has no period" issue—I supported the move too. But since it failed, and the title stands as "Harry S. Truman
National Historic Site", I think we need to be consistent and follow that usage in the article. The debate wasn't about Truman's name—it was
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a reason - the primary source legislation establishing the park left it off, and it was a clearly intentional omission that is honored by the park's managers as well as the vast majority of reliable sources discussing the park. Knowledge shouldn't rename things just because some people don't like the
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says "The park service does not use a period. However many official documents and his presidential library all use a period", again, stating their style, but not a distinction between the historic site name and any other use of Truman's name. So we should be careful and not claim more than that the
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With books being split about 50/50, this is clearly a styling choice, not in conflict with reliable sources. Let's use WP style. The idea that the styling of the text and the title should differ is absurd; it's just that we don't have this formalized process for text styling decisions, so we do it
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Sounds like in early official records the S. stood for Shipp rather than
Solomon. Robert H. Ferrell Harry S. Truman: A Life - 1996 p178 "The chief justice began, "I, Harry Shipp Truman ..." Truman raised his right hand and responded, "I, Harry S. Truman ..." In any case S. is still an abbreviation.
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I understand your point, but I think that it would be unusual, perhaps unprecedented, to rely on the typographic style of a law as having legal weight. The "hanged on a comma" point went the opposite direction: the legal interpretation was "as if" a comma had been there, even though it clearly was
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It's unclear what you mean by "expressly omits it". The
National Register of Historic Places nomination also omits the period in the names "Harry S and Beth Truman". There is nothing there to suggest that they specifically intend the site to be specially styled, differently from the name. After
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But where is the evidence that the congress or the NPS decided anything about presence or absence of a period? Where is a document that makes the distinction between the president's normal name and the site's name? I see none so far; just some people cloning the style of whoever printed the law,
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is relevant, this is a bibliographic convention for magazines and catalogues = Truman HS. This is actual text: "Harry S Truman was president" is a mistake. The fact that plenty of people, including the primary source legislation establishing the park can't punctuate per a Grade 5 textbook, doesn't
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Distinction without a difference. The park was named without the period by law. Regardless of the reasons or rationale, it remains so in federal law. The NPS cannot choose what to call its units - Congress makes that decision when they write the law creating the unit. They decided, for whatever
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I didn't remove any content. What I removed was a stack of refs in the opening phrase, not placed to support any facts, and not even in agreement with the styling of the name that they were attached to. Listing a bunch of sources that don't agree with our styling seems a little pointless and
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I apologize for not understanding what Neil meant. Regardless, I should think that the same reasoning that led us to include the period on Truman's article should likewise apply for the site; moreover, simple concordance and consistency indicates that we should try to keep the two in sync. I
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Yeah, most people talking about Truman himself seem to use the period, but most people talking about the park specifically seem to leave it out. It's an odd situation, and I see the merit of both options. Since it's pretty nearly a tie, I'd just as soon break it in favor of the official use.
807:- Yeah, for whatever reason, Congress wrote the law creating the park ~30 years ago with the "no period" style, and that's fixed in the U.S. Code. I have no opinion on whether or not the period is appropriate in other uses, but the name of the park doesn't have one.
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does mean we "fix" all kinds of errors and anomalies where both the correct and incorrect exist as in this case. And this case is a name, not a trademark, brand or DJ-styling. All you have shown is a punctuation in a couple of official documents. Unless
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The coordinates included in the article - 37°29′43″N, 94°16′16″W - are incorrect. They point to a location a block and a half away from the actual site. The correct coordinates are: 37°29′37.49″N, 94°16′16.35″W. I'll be updating the article.
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2374:"Official: Derived from the proper office or officer, or from the proper authority; made or communicated by virtue of authority." The proper office, in this case, is the National Park Service. The proper authority, in this case, is Congress.
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Unfortunately, there is not an NPS Administrative
History of the site yet, which might give us some insight into the legislative history. I'll try digging through the Congressional Record for the year the authorization bill was passed.
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is not based upon schoolbook grammar - it is based on common usage and precedent. There are any number of entirely-ungrammatical names for things that are, nonetheless, on
Knowledge - you can start with any article title which contains
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The evidence is that every single legislative enactment and virtually every official
National Park Service document relating to the park omits it. That is not "cloning the style" - we are talking about enrolled laws here, where
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Usage with or without the period can be viewed as correct. Truman did not have a middle name, only a middle initial but often signed his name with a period after the S. This is discussed within the article in the section
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believing that maybe the styling means something, even if there's no distinction apparent there. Changing a name is one thing; the presence or absence of a dot is quite another, as you can see by surveying sources.
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penalizes
Missouri students for correct punctuation and teaches a different set of punctuation rules than the rest of the English-speaking world, this is a mistake, an error, just as "George W Bush" is an error.
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A4: According to biographer David McCullough, Truman paid a small membership fee in an effort to gain political support from members, but there is no reliable evidence that he was ever inducted or active. See
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There's that "expressly" again; where's the evidence of intent? You're doing what they did: copying what you see. If you look to authorities who actually discuss this presidential middle initial, the
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write Truman's name without the period, like a minority actually does, we'd be using that in his article no matter how unusual it was. Besides, not every bit of style dogma is a universal law; many Brits
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was to include it, it could have been corrected in any number of ways. Instead, we have the opposite evidence - laws passed as recently as 2004 that expressly omit the period when referring to the park.
2272:. No matter how politically incorrect that might have been, the NPS could not choose to rename it to respect the fact that two sides fought and died on that ground. It took an Act of Congress, signed by
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the periods from initials. I'm not arguing that these examples bolster the case for moving the page, just pointing out that many of the writing rules you find in schoolbooks, like the rules against
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But I do think noting in the lede that the official name has no period, like you've done, strikes a very good balance. So thank you for that, and I hope I didn't come off too abrasively above. —
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reason, to omit the period. Unless
Congress decides to pass a law replacing the period, it will never go back in and the site will remain, as long as the National Park System exists, the
2209:, the "Truman Farm Home Expansion Act" expressly omits it - "An Act To modify the boundary of the Harry S Truman National Historic Site in the State of Missouri, and for other purposes."
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I'm OK with the intent, but the source cited, which also styles "President Harry S Truman" in other contexts without period, makes no claim about the official name, as far as I can see.
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The fact would be that the
National Park Service styles the name without the period. It might be worth mentioning that fact somewhere in the article, and citing a source or two for it.
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have to agree. For the name of Harry S. Truman when referring to the person, that's fine. But the name of the national park site is Harry S Truman
National Historic Site, with no period.
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Your search link goes to a Google results page full of websites that omit the period from the park name - with the only two exceptions being Knowledge and an HowStuffWorks.com site.
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2093:, when there are equally many that could be cited that do agree with out styling. If you want to add refs, find refs to support the content, and stop fretting over the styling.
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This is a proper name and should be spelled as intended per the sources noted in the original proposal. As noted just above, there are other places with proper names that use the
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While the two houses are several miles apart and reflect vastly different aspects of the Truman history, they are still in the same current management, so I would be agreeable.
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There is no evidence that "Harry S Truman National Historic Site" is a mistake. Even if it was, I don't believe Knowledge has a mission to fix alleged grammar mistakes. Per
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Of course it is a mistake. Two schoolbooks have been presented, please present a schoolbook which teaches children to not write a period after an initial in a name.
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Surprisingly, for a man of Truman's stature and given the nature of the events that he was involved in, the use of the period is the most discussed topic. See the
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use the period, so the National Park Service may be an outlier. Still, they do control the park's official name, so I suppose we'd better follow their lead. —
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etc., all adhere to the official and common usage of the park name - without a period. Again, I have no opinion as to the period in connection to his
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1407:: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.
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The original editor created the article as "Harry S. Truman" on August 23, 2001. The article has been stable with this title ever since. Per the
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We are titling the article, not renaming the site. And we use the same standard orthography as many other reliable sources, as you can verify
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Yea, but I'm sure that if he were president today, the right-wing nutcases would be demanding to see his long-form birth certificate.
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1305:- they are the common names of things, ungrammatical though they are. The common (and official) name of this national park is the
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Policy doesn't mandate we use the official name, and it makes sense to include the period here if we do it on Truman's article.
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should carry some weight; if this historic site is an exception to their usual policy, why didn't they mention it? And the
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Jean Wyrick - 2011 p574 "Use a period after initials and many abbreviations. Examples W. B. Yeats, 12 a.m., Dr., etc., Ms."
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Interactive Learning: Daily Sentence Editing Grade 5 Michael H. Levin, Teacher Created Resources (COR), Eric Migliaccio p8
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
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And high school English teachers. Seeing as his own presidential signature has S. it isn't really relevant though is it?
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probably erred in referencing COMMONNAME above; this is more of a house style issue than a sourcing issue.
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where it says "reproduce grammatical errors" or "reproduce punctuation errors" and it has been pointed out
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Since we couldn't consense on a move, I'm dotting all the Ss in the article just to be consistent. —
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725:) 20:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC) The correct official name of this site has no period after the S - as per
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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for current discussions and see the links at the top of the talk page for archived discussions.
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2365:(unindent) The law creating the park does not include a period in the name. Therefore, by law,
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turns up many more sources that omit the period in reference to the park than use the period.
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that uses the period in some contexts (like the historic site) and not in others (the name):
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turns up substantially more sources omitting the period than using the period, in reference
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No, we don't need to be consistent. In fact, the opposite is true. Article content must be
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make it a "clearly intentional omission that is honored." It's a Grade 5 mistake.
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President Harry S. Truman Fellowship in National Security Science and Engineering
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to source a specific fact - to wit, the name of a national park unit. The name
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Q3: Are there any cases where the "S" without the period should be used? (Yes.)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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olomon Young. The "S" did not stand for anything, a common practice among the
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Where are your reliable sources? You are removing reliably-sourced content.
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Q1: Should Truman's middle initial be written with a period after it? (Yes.)
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http://www.examiner.net/news/x1621118755/Truman-home-open-again-for-tours
826:. Just because a name is "official" doesn't mean we have to use it, per
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C-Class National Register of Historic Places articles of High-importance
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which is not an abbreviation but rather the whole middle name in itself
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A3: Yes, but only in two cases. Proper names used in the article are:
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Like I said, I can see the logic behind matching this article up with
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DISREGARD. This was supposed to go on the Truman Birthplace page.
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en:Oath of office of the President of the United States#Oath mishaps
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talk:Harry S. Truman#No mention in article of the "S" vs "S." issue?
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To propose that the article be renamed, follow the instructions at
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I believe I stipulated to that in my comments on your talk page.
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No, do not do that. Page names and names in use in the article
1035:- in the English language periods are used after initials. See
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without the period. Your claims to the contrary are nonsense.
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The United States Government Printing Office Style Manual 2000
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would have to cite "WB Yates" if he fancied a bit of poetry. —
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779:. This is an interesting one. Most major sources, including
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about the site's name, and we should stick to the result. —
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there are only five instances where this could be changed:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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in 1991, to reflect the changing times and sensitivities.
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Knowledge:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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Template:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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does not have a period. You claim otherwise. That is a
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is a distinct minority. They are two different things.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The National Register of Historic Places nomination
1966:with the period. What do reliable sources call the
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Memoirs by Harry S. Truman: Years of Trial and Hope
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The National Register of Historic Places nomination
674:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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1867:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1719:details on this list of KKK members in US politics
683:Great arguments on both sides, no full agreement.
647:on 18 May 2013. The result of the move review was
1077:"Mr Payne" and "Dr Anna Lee", and a doctor using
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1453:These formal style guides have been consulted:
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845:do not use the period for the name of the park
2069:Provide reliable sources for name with period
1585:Memoirs by Harry S. Truman: Year of Decisions
1135:for a relevant rationale if you doubt this.
1098:Not to mention that most Indian publications
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1970:? We aren't asking what they call the
1649:Harry S. Truman National Historic Site
1594:Proper names used in the article are:
709:Harry S. Truman National Historic Site
2629:Low-importance United States articles
2259:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
2031:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
1980:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
1307:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
1210:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
714:Harry S Truman National Historic Site
7:
2594:High-importance Kansas City articles
2270:Custer Battlefield National Monument
679:The result of the move request was:
607:should be merged into this article.
556:Knowledge:WikiProject Historic sites
536:This article is within the scope of
420:This article is within the scope of
332:National Register of Historic Places
323:National Register of Historic Places
311:This article is within the scope of
275:National Register of Historic Places
79:This article is within the scope of
2654:WikiProject Historic sites articles
2213:in a recent article about the site.
1713:Q4: Wasn't Truman in the KKK? (No.)
1682:Also note the references listed in
1546:As of the November 7, 2008 version,
559:Template:WikiProject Historic sites
467:Knowledge:WikiProject United States
38:It is of interest to the following
2639:WikiProject United States articles
2308:people have been hanged on a comma
1666:and Harry S. Truman Visitor Center
1639:Harry S. Truman Little White House
1450:Q2: (Additional information on A1)
1006:we left the period off the S. See
470:Template:WikiProject United States
14:
2443:. Please take a moment to review
2029:Every single source I cited uses
1974:because this article isn't about
1634:Harry S. Truman Historic District
107:Knowledge:WikiProject Kansas City
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1684:Bibliography of Harry S. Truman
1541:Bibliography of Harry S. Truman
789:the Truman Presidential Library
645:listed at Knowledge:Move review
576:This article has been rated as
487:This article has been rated as
355:This article has been rated as
246:This article has been rated as
127:This article has been rated as
2624:C-Class United States articles
2389:not; or did I misunderstand?
1726:So we do have two precedents,
1458:The Associated Press Stylebook
1421:General Concerns and Questions
1208:site that was expressly named
226:Knowledge:WikiProject Missouri
1:
2153:I'm OK with North's revision
550:and see a list of open tasks.
329:and see a list of open tasks.
229:Template:WikiProject Missouri
101:and see a list of open tasks.
2589:C-Class Kansas City articles
2232:lots of looking, I've found
605:Wallace House (Independence)
599:Wallace House (Independence)
2537:14:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
1466:The Chicago Manual of Style
1334:Missouri Assessment Program
1200:We are titling the article
2675:
2500:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2436:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
621:19:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
612:20:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
582:project's importance scale
539:WikiProject Historic sites
493:project's importance scale
361:project's importance scale
252:project's importance scale
2599:C-Class Missouri articles
2339:NPS styles it this way.
1609:Harry S. Truman Farm Home
1543:must also be considered.
1498:Related Talk discussions:
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2061:03:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
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2009:03:52, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
1992:03:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
1958:03:16, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
1939:08:47, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
1913:08:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
1901:06:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
1879:05:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
1860:Please do not modify it.
1846:10:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1816:06:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1802:06:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1759:05:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1744:05:07, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1580:and one from McCullough.
1397:Talk:Harry S. Truman/FAQ
1347:06:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1319:06:22, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1277:05:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1263:05:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1245:04:24, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1226:03:48, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1193:03:41, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1171:03:26, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1145:03:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1118:14:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1090:04:04, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1056:03:12, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
1028:03:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
991:02:02, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
973:01:41, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
963:, per sources provided.
885:00:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
770:06:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
731:the official NPS website
727:the enabling legislation
695:17:48, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
667:Please do not modify it.
428:United States of America
192:This article is part of
2572:04:55, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
2557:04:53, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
2432:External links modified
1728:Harry S Truman Building
1700:Harry S Truman Building
1654:Harry S. Truman Parkway
1539:The supporting article
1325:Knowledge naming policy
1282:Knowledge naming policy
1010:. The key to me is the
956:22:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
932:National Parks Traveler
875:22:44, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
865:21:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
839:21:53, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
817:21:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
800:21:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
781:the Library of Congress
743:20:40, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
562:Historic sites articles
82:WikiProject Kansas City
1835:without the period. --
1789:
1732:Harry S Truman College
1705:Harry S Truman College
1604:Harry S. Truman Bridge
1576:There is a quote from
1438:
1399:}}: (be sure to click
1391:
1214:United States Congress
473:United States articles
91:, and the surrounding
28:This article is rated
1443:Early life and career
1437:
1206:National Park Service
88:Kansas City, Missouri
2481:regular verification
2205:expressly omits it.
2109:disrupting Knowledge
1664:Harry S. Truman Lake
1483:The MLA Style Manual
1476:The MHRA Style Guide
758:to the national park
415:United States portal
195:WikiProject Missouri
113:Kansas City articles
2659:Closed move reviews
2542:correct coordinates
2471:After February 2018
2408:NorthBySouthBaranof
2376:NorthBySouthBaranof
2317:NorthBySouthBaranof
2278:NorthBySouthBaranof
2219:NorthBySouthBaranof
2121:NorthBySouthBaranof
2075:NorthBySouthBaranof
2035:NorthBySouthBaranof
1984:NorthBySouthBaranof
1931:NorthBySouthBaranof
1893:NorthBySouthBaranof
1765:In 1945, President
1311:NorthBySouthBaranof
1255:NorthBySouthBaranof
1218:NorthBySouthBaranof
1163:NorthBySouthBaranof
948:NorthBySouthBaranof
936:TeachingHistory.org
857:NorthBySouthBaranof
809:NorthBySouthBaranof
762:NorthBySouthBaranof
735:NorthBySouthBaranof
719:NorthBySouthBaranof
441:Articles Requested!
2525:InternetArchiveBot
2476:InternetArchiveBot
2312:legislative intent
1439:
1289:. We do not "fix"
853:name of the person
34:content assessment
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578:Low-importance
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548:the discussion
544:historic sites
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489:Low-importance
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1865:move review
1384:Scots-Irish
1204:a specific
1075:would write
1018:) as well.
916:TripAdvisor
828:WP:OFFICIAL
672:move review
200:WikiProject
104:Kansas City
59:Kansas City
2583:Categories
2532:Report bug
2368:officially
2207:PL 108-396
2107:It is not
1494:: use "S."
1299:EastEnders
1295:CompuServe
218:discussion
204:U.S. state
2564:Elsquared
2549:Elsquared
2515:this tool
2508:this tool
2113:factually
2091:WP:POINTY
1840:Gadget850
1524:talk page
1461:: use "S"
1303:HyperCard
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944:park name
2521:Cheers.—
2391:Dicklyon
2341:Dicklyon
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2190:Dicklyon
2174:Dicklyon
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2135:Dicklyon
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2053:Dicklyon
2001:Dicklyon
1950:Dicklyon
1471:use "S."
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1156:- There
1137:Dicklyon
1109:and the
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912:Visit KC
851:and the
223:Missouri
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156:Missouri
2445:my edit
1976:the man
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