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as most are travestis who explicitly reject the term and most of the sources (English, Portuguese, and
Spanish) in the article likewise don't use "transgender" and/or explicitly say "trans" is the umbrella term in Brazil. " in Brazil" would be a more appropriate title than one with "transgender" but it would still be too narrow. I believe "transgender history/history of transgender" is appropriate for most articles we have, but this case is unique due to the considerations above. Best regards,
585:"At the same time it posed a requirement that someone changing their gender be infertile, and may thus have made harder a process which had become relatively simple in the 1990s." Suggest cutting "At the same time"; I don't think it gives the reader any more information. "Pose" doesn't seem the right word -- it set or created a requirement; to "pose" has connotations of questioning or suggesting which we don't want here. And why "may have"? It's definitely an additional barrier.
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societal developments. I don't think this presents an obstacle to moving, however.I agree that the "Intersex" section needs to go elsewhere, given that they are unrelated topics. But while individual non-binary individuals may choose not to identify as transgender, I maintain that non-binary history belongs firmly within the sphere of transgender history.
590:"Criticism of the act became mainstream in the early 2010s": "mainstream" is an opinion; I had a look in the body of the article, and I don't see anything that would support this. If no source can be found making this comment I think it would be safer just to list the most prominent critics, as you do already.
595:"also opposed the mandatory sterilization and not being married being a prerequisite for a change of gender marker": this isn't very fluently written. How about "also criticized the act because it required mandatory sterilization and required applicants for a change-of-gender marker to be unmarried".
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I think we're somewhat going in circles (no worries since this question was also considered at eswiki and enwiki at the noticeboard and I myself grappled it with ages before choosing "trans" in the first place lol). I'm going to strike my above comment and propose we revisit whether "transgender" OR
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though, could you please clarify? "Transgender" is in umbrella term in
Western contexts, but in Brazil transgender people are only a small part of the larger trans umbrella - the title including "transgender" is a misnomer considering only a minority of trans people there call themselves transgender
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I'm meaning that in this case if as you're saying there is a clear distinction (although it looks like it is blurry), then there should be two separate articles "History of
Transgender people in Brazil", which talks about Transgender/Non-binary identities in Brazil and a separate one on "History of
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from the main title into a related separate article. Transgender is the correct umbrella term in the
English language, and this is the English Knowledge, so we follow English language convention and Wikipedias rules and guidelines. As the main Travesti article clarifies in the terminology, the term
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FN 11 cites "Panda
Eriksson, former president of Trans ry, handed the initiative to Parliament on 17 September 2021." I don't see support for the date here. The article is datelined 22 September and says it will be handed over on the following Friday, but even if the dates matched this can't cite
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FN 7 cites "In 2011 the
Finnish equality commissioner said the infertility requirement breached human rights and should be immediately removed. In 2012, after a visit to Finland, the Council of Europe's Commissioner for Human Rights, Nils Muižnieks demanded that the provisions about infertility and
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is already a convention). To me, while they're closely related, the former tends to include culture and more of the backstory on how those rights came to be, while the latter tends to focus on the modern rights and less of the political struggles to get them (usually linking to the history article
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I've emailed you for
Pimenoff. I think the lead could stand to lose a couple more sentences. How about cutting "Drafting of..."? That draft never made it into law so is less important for the lead. Similarly mention of the Social Democrats' plans doesn't seem as important as the laws that were
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My concern is that as phrased, without attribution, it reads as if this was a general opinion -- i.e. most participants in the discussion about it agreed on this point. I just received your email and I see
Pimenoff cites Scheinin for "heavy criticism"; do you have access to Scheinin? That might
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FN 1 cites "In the following centuries, better information about transgender people became available, and treatments more common." I assume "centuries" should be "decades"? The source mentions Harry
Benjamin in the US and Jan Wålinder in Sweden; I think it would be helpful to make it clear that
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FN 2 cites "The infertility caused by hormone therapy was still seen as sufficient sterilization. However, the act and decree also made it harder to get hormone therapy, requiring a psychiatrist's recommendation for a treatment which previously could be prescribed by a doctor unconnected to the
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FN 1 cites "By the end of the 1980s, approximately 35 people had been operated on in
Finland, a number much smaller than those of other European countries." I think it would be best to rephrase this so that it doesn't imply Finland had one of the smallest numbers; only five other countries are
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is drawn, since a lot of the things like political, healthcare and so on are already covered in those articles and by making the title here more encompassing, it also gets more ambiguous, that line will get blurrier and blurrier. Especially even looking at the different formats of the existing
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Concerning being structured around the current title, I see your point that a lot of the coverage is just about individual historical trans people. I don't think that's bad either, and it's natural that in past times, a lot of the information we have would be about individual cases rather than
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is also another policy that applies here. The article can still discuss that the term has different historical meaning in Brazil, but it is the term that English language readers of EN-wiki are looking for when they are looking for an article about Transgender History in different countries.
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From what I can tell, the government's (i. e. SDP) proposal is the one that went through. The initiative was started to address concerns (age limit) with the government proposal, which was then in its early stages, but ultimately it was the government proposal that went through, and not the
613:"Beginning with a 2010 campaign by Seta, reforming the Trans Act was increasingly demanded by it as well as Trasek and Amnesty." Awkwardly phrased. Perhaps "Demands for reforming the Trans Act began in 2010 with a campaign by Seta, followed by declarations by Trasek and Amnesty."
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also shows that "transgender history in …" is used in the literature, while "history of transgender people in …" is not. Furthermore, I would argue that transgender history is more than just the history of transgender people, but also of political, cultural, etc. circumstances.
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that it really did happen -- it might have been on a different day. I had a quick look online for news sources for the actual date but couldn't find anything. Also, the source says Eriksson is a former president of "Trans", not "Trans ry" -- is this an error in the source?
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The use of the term travesti precedes that of "transgender" in the region and its differentiation from the notions of "transsexual" and "trans woman" is complex and can vary depending on the context, ranging from considering it a regional equivalent to a unique
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I understand the rationale behind this move, but my concern is that the pages appear to be structured around the previous name. How would they be expanded to more broader to about " political, cultural, etc. circumstances" of transgender people as put
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the name change. In terms of the second paragraph, I think you are right about the Intersex section. When it comes to the non-binary section, maybe some of it could be incorporated more into the general text, and/or some or all also moved to
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623:"The statement concerning transgender youth also passed." It's not clear what this refers to. The previous paragraph mentions a statement about trans youth, but only in the context of a committee statement, not as part of a bill.
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Thanks for those page ranges; much easier to find. I think one more small change is required; you have "unmarried" but the source, unless Google Translate is misleading me, says "celibacy" -- rather a different thing.
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I don't think it necessarily poses an obstacle to moving either, I'm just saying that it may require additional research to fulfill the new name of each article. I'd be willing to pitch in a bit to help. So, surely, I
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I'll do more spotchecks. I don't have access to Pimenoff and for some reason can't get to it via the Knowledge Library. Do you have an offline copy you could send me? If so I'll email you so you can reply with it.
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for that). This applies to the history/rights split for both "Transgender..." and "LGBT..." (though admittedly, the UK/US/Brazil articles follow that topical split more than the Finland article). Best regards,
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Source: Parhi, Katariina. Boyish Mannerisms and Womanly Coquetry: Patients with the Diagnosis of Transvestitismus in the Helsinki Psychiatric Clinic in Finland, 1954–68. Medical History. 4 December 2017;62(1).
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Moreover, the draft was not considered to be in accordance with the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), particularly articles 8, 6, 13, and 14 of the
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transgender health system." Can you narrow down the page range for the citations to Pimenoff, as you do for Järviö? I had a quick look for the source for this but it's too long to scan easily.
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As I said, in the English language, "Transgender" is considered the umbrella term for Trans identities (whether it is Transgender itself, or non-binary or other non-AGAB identities) - refer to
1504:(I was thinking of having a whole page dedicated to non-binary history, but I think that might be overkill, as there isn't that much there in the non-binary section, I just cited, right now)
605:"Applications became more numerous when, in the 1980s, it became a prerequisite for gender-affirming surgery, and eventually also started to be granted." What does the last clause refer to?
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That's good enough, then. Passing GA; congratulations. Would you be interested in doing GA reviews, by the way? There's always a backlog, and we always need more reviewers.
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articles stay on the topic of the history and don't delve too far into the rights issues beyond the historical evolution, I suppose it makes sense for consistency with the
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being unmarried be removed." You give a page range here; I tried using Google Translate but couldn't find the supporting text. Can you point me at the right paragraph?
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1462:(for the intersex section). I guess I can understand why they are in that article, but... they would be better suited somewhere else, so the information is not lost.
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Marinin hallitus ryhtyi uudistamaan lakia jo alkuvuodesta 2020, mutta korona jyräsi uudistustyön alleen pitkäksi aikaa. Tänään hallitus sai esityksensä valmiiksi.
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I don't have Scheining 1992, sadly. It's included in Rastas 1992, which does seem to exist in dead tree at several libraries in Finland, but nowhere I can get to.
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618:"This was however criticized as lacking because is did not afford self-determination to minors." I would suggest attributing this to Seta (or Kupila) inline.
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Also, the "non-binary" and "intersex" sections of the UK article ("History of transgender people in the United Kingdom") should be split off into either
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Recent GA, so focusing on DYK-exclusive issues. Recentness (date) of the article confirmed. QPQ done. Hook is interesting and cited. All is GTG. --
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OK -- in the meantime I think it would best to attribute this as "according to Pimenoff" or something similar; Pimenoff is at least reliable.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
659:) I'd infer it was some participants in the public consultations, but it could just as well be criticism within the ministry, I suppose.
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No problem about the discourse, I brought a summary linking to here back to the LGBT Studies board if you want to discuss further there.
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Sorry for the tangent above lol. For the record, I don't think that would be an issue as we already have the joint naming convention
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Thanks! I had an idea on backburner I think this is a good spark for: I'll create a table somewhere about the state of the various
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722:? They can get some pretty amazingly obscure things there. I'll have a think about how to phrase this and come back to this.
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and don't consider themselves "transgender". That's supported by the article's body and sources overwhelmingly. Best regards,
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
1824:"trans" is the best title for the Brazilian article after this RM as it's a separate (if related) question. Best regards,
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Thank you! I don't know if I have quite enough experience with GA to do reviews, but I'll consider it and maybe join in.
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I've made the page numbers more precise. The equality ombudsman is mentioned in the second paragraph of p. 21 (beginning
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if there are more different parts in Brazil, they should be WP:Split from the main title into a related separate article
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I've copyedited the lead a bit and consolidated two of the paragraphs. It may still be a bit long, though. Thoughts?
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FN 11 – you're right; I must have mixed up my tenses when first reading that article. The organization is called
652:"was deemed contrary to human rights": does "deemed" refer to a legal determination, or an opinion of some kind?
609:"was deemed contrary to human rights": does "deemed" refer to a legal determination, or an opinion of some kind?
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This ignores the obvious connections between different trans people. What is the advantage of such a division?
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I don't mind the "history of" consistency/title format change pending this RM. I'm unclear what you mean by
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It should also be "trans history in Brazil" not "transgender history in Brazil" - this was discussed at the
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No images to review. Earwig finds no issues; sources are reliable. Spotchecks -- footnote numbers refer to
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and the TLDR is "transgender" refers to a small percentage of trans people in Brazil, many of whom are
1861:- The main problem I see with the proposed expansive meaning is where the line to the other series of
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As I said, in the English language, "Transgender" is considered the umbrella term for Trans identities
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Travesti people in Brazil" that talks about that and they can link to each other as appropriate.
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Suggest introducing the AFAB abbreviation in parentheses after you give the spelled-out version.
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predates the use of Transgender in the area, but is considered a regional equivalent in part -
654:– not a legal determination. Neither source says exactly who said it broke the ECHR (Pimenoff:
580:"Uniformize" is a rather rare word; suggest "standardize", "regularize" or "normalize" instead.
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Tangential discussion on the use of "trans" vs "transgender" for the article about Brazil.
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1798:– this is way too bold a statement. I've been reading lots of gender studies sources for
236:-related issues on Knowledge. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below.
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is generally included when writing about the organization in Finnish since just
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
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this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
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titling of articles and so the title has been made consistent with the other
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Template:Did you know nominations/Paleofauna of the Eocene Okanagan Highlands
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actually passed. Have struck most points above and will read through again.
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has now been moved to this title and should also be encompassed by this RM.
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492:. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
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I think your point here is good, so as long as we could ensure that the
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titles. So if there are more different parts in Brazil, they should be
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this improvement in medical understanding was not specifically Finnish.
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per discussion above for consistency, granted that we ensure that the
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Template talk:Did you know nominations/Transgender history in Finland
1159:), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page.
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Striking per my comment below, this can be discussed after this RM.
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that holds across all articles (I haven't seen a single page called
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articles and post a link here or at the LGBT noticeboard shortly.
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Template:Did you know nominations/Transgender history in Finland
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recommends one or two paragraphs for an article of this length.
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would be ambiguous. In Swedish it's disambiguated by writing
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avoided), even for an article about Brazil, again because
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since the 1800s with one case of a person in 1882 who was
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On 21 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be
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128:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
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History of transgender people in the United Kingdom
571:The lead is rather long for such a short article.
1378:History of transgender people in the United States
1971:articles stay on topic to avoid overlap with the
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18:Talk:History of transgender people in Finland
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1553:Also, we already have the naming convention
1161:No further edits should be made to this page
1270:. Post-promotion hook changes for this nom
2043:Knowledge requested photographs in Finland
1946:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1903:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1826:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1720:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1666:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1656:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1627:The following discussion has been closed.
1613:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
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1563:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1541:Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ
1319:The following is a closed discussion of a
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2013:Social sciences and society good articles
1896:that supports the moves especially since
1391:Transgender history in the United Kingdom
109:). The text of the entry was as follows:
44:Social sciences and society good articles
1382:Transgender history in the United States
1369:History of transgender people in Finland
1113:History of transgender people in Finland
1588:History of transgender people in Brazil
490:Talk:Transgender history in Finland/GA1
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1295:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
942:I've added page numbers for Pimenoff.
124:A record of the entry may be seen at
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1396:– Our main article on this topic is
1338:The result of the move request was:
324:This article is within the scope of
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1535:, and because I'm about to publish
1242:Improved to Good Article status by
964:is an abbreviation showing it is a
812:And yes, I can email you Pimenoff.
170:It is of interest to the following
126:Knowledge:Recent additions/2023/May
1684:History of transgender people in X
250:Knowledge:WikiProject LGBT studies
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2028:WikiProject LGBT studies articles
1648:LGBT Wikiproject Noticeboard here
253:Template:WikiProject LGBT studies
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121:stretch back to the 19th century?
52:. If you can improve it further,
1990:The discussion above is closed.
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1458:(for the non-binary section) or
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966:Registered association (Finland)
744:Good idea; I'll give RX a shot!
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2018:Knowledge Did you know articles
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1662:) 16:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
1312:Requested move 21 November 2023
1144:Please do not modify this page.
369:This article has been rated as
224:This article is of interest to
1373:Transgender history in Finland
1345:closed by non-admin page mover
1212:... that there are records of
1117:Transgender history in Finland
93:Transgender history in Finland
40:has been listed as one of the
38:Transgender history in Finland
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2048:All WikiProject Finland pages
1985:19:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
1954:19:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
1936:18:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
1911:18:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
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344:Knowledge:WikiProject Finland
338:and see a list of open tasks.
118:transgender people in Finland
1533:Category:Transgender history
1222:, but identified as a male?
347:Template:WikiProject Finland
1157:Knowledge talk:Did you know
1149:this nomination's talk page
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1652:Travesti (gender identity)
1460:Intersex people in history
1030:The relevant word here is
844:21:10, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
825:20:05, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
672:19:52, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
646:14:27, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
628:That's it for first pass.
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375:project's importance scale
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1992:Please do not modify it.
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1305:09:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
1225:doi:10.1017/mdh.2017.73.
1220:assigned female at birth
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718:A pity. Have you tried
228:WikiProject LGBT studies
95:appeared on Knowledge's
2008:Knowledge good articles
1973:Transgender rights in X
1924:Transgender rights in X
1863:Transgender Rights in …
1802:, and I'd say most use
1268:18:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
1153:the article's talk page
1134:Did you know nomination
1088:16:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
1071:21:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
1049:18:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
1025:12:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
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697:10:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
105:column on 28 May 2023 (
2023:GA-Class LGBT articles
1527:per Maddy's comments,
387:
160:This article is rated
141:
566:From a read-through:
386:
240:or contribute to the
139:
50:good article criteria
1456:Third gender#History
1404:, which is wordier.
679:well be the source.
115:... that records of
1882:LGBT history in XYZ
1766:wikt:en:transgender
1555:LGBT history in XYZ
1531:, the fact we have
1398:Transgender history
972:in their name. The
327:WikiProject Finland
1886:LGBT rights in XYZ
1866:articles already.
1810:Maddy from Celeste
1806:for this purpose.
1751:Maddy from Celeste
1594:Maddy from Celeste
1481:Maddy from Celeste
1436:Maddy from Celeste
1413:Maddy from Celeste
1252:Maddy from Celeste
1079:Maddy from Celeste
1040:Maddy from Celeste
992:Maddy from Celeste
951:Kesäkuussa 2012...
882:Maddy from Celeste
835:Maddy from Celeste
816:Maddy from Celeste
787:Maddy from Celeste
748:Maddy from Celeste
705:Maddy from Celeste
663:Maddy from Celeste
519:I'll review this.
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191:LGBT studies
172:WikiProjects
116:
113:Did you know
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102:Did you know
100:
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91:A fact from
63:
54:please do so
42:
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37:
1331:move review
1278:; consider
657:Convention.
486:transcluded
107:check views
2002:Categories
1975:articles.
1300:reply here
439:Authorship
425:GA toolbox
397:photograph
242:discussion
48:under the
1694:identity.
498:Reviewer:
462:Templates
453:Reviewing
418:GA Review
140:Knowledge
97:Main Page
1926:series.
1814:WAVEDASH
1768:and per
1755:WAVEDASH
1688:WP:Split
1598:WAVEDASH
1485:WAVEDASH
1440:WAVEDASH
1417:WAVEDASH
1400:and not
1358:contribs
1280:watching
1230:Reviewed
1170:promoted
1083:WAVEDASH
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996:WAVEDASH
958:Trans ry
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820:WAVEDASH
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709:WAVEDASH
689:contribs
667:WAVEDASH
638:contribs
529:contribs
511:contribs
467:Criteria
162:GA-class
58:reassess
1977:Raladic
1965:Support
1928:Raladic
1868:Raladic
1859:Comment
1783:Raladic
1735:Raladic
1711:Raladic
1697:Raladic
1539:. Best,
1525:Support
1497:support
1194:Comment
1067:library
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373:on the
341:Finland
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99:in the
1428:Note:
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1250:) and
960:. The
783:Done.
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168:scale.
65:Review
1804:trans
1585:Note:
1266:) at
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1111:from
1109:moved
978:Trans
720:WP:RX
488:from
401:added
393:image
234:LGBTQ
1981:talk
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1884:and
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1198:view
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1123:was
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