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728:. These are based on yoga siddhi and the shastras. There is no fraud or trickery at all. These miracles were performed only to show the greatness of God and the wonderful powers that one can attain with His grace. Right knowledge (jnana) is greater than any miracle. Without this no real miracle can take place. Any miracle performed without this right knowledge is only
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These, and other issues make it clear that the wikipedia should take a neutral stance regarding
Krishna Consciousness. Certainly there are those who regard them as Hindu, no one denies this. Hindutva sometimes recognizes all religions native to India as Hindu (sikh, Buddhist, Jain, etc...). But that
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Of course, but most people think of
Jehovah witnesses as a classic definition of a cult as well. Nobody is trying to provide you with conclusive evidence Andries, you are free to your opinions about ISKCON. Our goal is not to "prove" ISKCON is a cult here. Rather we are asking you to accept that it
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has said that a guru can be likened to God if he himself has attained realization and is a link between the individual and the
Absolute. Such a case is limited in contemporary times as very few have actually attained union with God, inspire devotion in others, and whose presence purifies all. Such
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might be appropriate). Some guy whose primary "miracle" involves producing costume jewlery, and "testing" his followers faith by "allowing" them to see his clumsily failed attempts to palm it properly (that is when he's not too busy molesting their children...) doesn't strike me as a particularly
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For a living guru to consider himself or herself to be an Ista deva, that cheapens the definition what God is. I don't think the Sathya sai baba discussion is appropriate for the Ista deva article (it is more appropriate in the sathya sai baba article in criticism). Putting it here makes people
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I hate what these gurus do and they act as if they define
Hinduism. Hinduism is already a complex religion and there is a lot of ignorance from outsiders. These so-called gurus make the job even harder. If you want to understand what Hinduism really is, please read the links I have placed in
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a new religion (consider the age of
Hinduism, the worlds oldest religion, compared to ISKCON!) with signifigant differences with Hinduism, and is often viewed as a cult. Check out a book on cults from the library, and I am quite certain ISKCON will be mentioned. What is important is that
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That's fine, Sam, feel free to use this language: "Although not accepted in mainstream
Hinduism and in many cases, condemned or criticized by traditional adherents, many contemporary Hindu movements, some of which are cults, regard a teacher of their organization, as their Ishta deva."
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worthy mention here. Theres a whole list of folks who have claimed to be God thruout history, and this guys temporary popularity is of precious little import in the larger scheme of things. Encyclopedia articles are ment to be timeless, not excessively focused on the trends of the day.
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as their chosen deities. There are innumerable different Vishnu forms also, with each Vishnu being known by a different name - the practice is that devotees will naturally offer worship to the form of Vishnu which they feel the most attachment for - this being their Ishta-deva.
863:, merely this talk page, and based on the evidence I have seen I personally assume his guilt. That is not to say that he doesn't do good deeds (building hospitals, etc...) as well, but he is an extraordinarilly poor candidate for suggestions of Godlike morality. In any case,
1515:, the Sanskrit term Ishtadevata (IAST: Iṣṭa-devatā) is primarily used in Hinduism vis-a-vis Buddhism where Yidam (from Tibetan) is the popular term (ishtadevata is a ceremonial Sanskrit term). The following generic religion encyclopedias define the term in the Hindu context
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I have never thought of Hare
Krishna/ISKCON as Hindu, and I think many agree. It is something perhaps like how Mormonism is an offshoot Christianity. It is often disputed if mormonism is Christian, and likewise it is often disputed that Hare Krishna's are Hindu.
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Andries, I still think putting in discussion of sathya sai baba as a ishta deva is also a point of view, and is not in mainstream
Hinduism. For example, I think Jesus's alleged stay in India, should not be put in an article that discusses mainstream Christianity.
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I still think you should put that discussion into Sathya sai baba discussion. we should leave this discussion in the talk section; Sam Spade moved our comments in the talk section as both our views are strongly opinonated and not feature a neutral point of view.
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Then you should then write, "Although not accepted in mainstream
Hinduism and in many cases, condemned or criticized by traditional adherents, many contemporary Hindu movements, some of which are cults, regard a teacher of their organization, for example,
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Yes, I am not sure if ISKCON necessarily has significant differences with
Hinduism but recognizing Radha as equivalent to Laksmi Devi, Mother of the World is unique to ISKCON. And recognizing Chaitayana as an avatar of Krishna is also unusual.
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I already wrote something up prior to your advice. The wording may not be exactly the same, but I used some quotes you provided, and think the spirit is similar to what you had in mind. Please make any changes you feel are needed, of course.
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In all fairness to Sathya Sai Baba, he is only an accused pedophile and has never been tried before a court of law. Nevertheless, I agree that the discussion about cults using guru as ishta deva really shouldn't be in this article.
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LordsuryaofShropshire, I think the link to idolaty should be present because the subject is related whether we like it or not. And believe me, I don't like the ignorance and prejudice of Muslims and Christians about Hinduism.
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However, if followers worship the guru like God, it is only proper if they are using him as a conduit to attain God or in a similar manner as Christians pray to a saint to intercede for them to help attain's God's grace.
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Christianity has therefore limited the Divine Incarnation as an one-time phenomenon. The theory has strong points and equally strong defects but it surmounts the gross abuse of the doctrine indulged in by many Hindus."
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traditions (as well as with other world religions). From a theological perspective it's quite correct to call Iskcon a sect of Hinduism, but for followers this would not be the case. To quote the movements founder:
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ISKCOn is not a new religion. It is an old religion. It may be new in the West but it is not new in India. This is the international Knowledge (incl. Indian) in English language so it is not a new religion.
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I would agree with Sam. Although in most practices, ISKCOn resembles Gaudiya Vaishnvaism. In others it may not. At one point their founder even denied that their sect was part of Hinduism. see reference,
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Hello Raj, I reverted your edits because the concept of an Ishta-deva is also important within other Hindu traditions, not just within Advaita schools. For example, within Vaishnavism it is true that
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rethoric that only they are pure and authentic and that other forms of sanatana Dharma are misguided and corrupted. Just as the Jehovah witnesses consider all other forms of Christianity corrupted.
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Encyclopedia of Hinduism - Page 203 - Constance Jones, James D. Ryan · 2006: "Ishta devata (desired divinity) is an important concept in theistic Hinduism." - illustrates its importance in Hinduism
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Whatever our individual opinions, we must be careful not to take a stand in the narrative of the article. We can cite the opinions of experts, but where they differ we must remain neutral. Cheers,
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Raj, It is a notable fact so it so it should be mentioned here possibly with a short remark that this is not mainstream Hinduism or even condemned by mainstream Hinduism.
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Even those God-realized gurus never claimed that they were God but are using the Lord's power to show His greatness. As early in the seventeenth century, the great saint,
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I agree, the concept of an ishta-devata can exist in all sects. As another example, most Shakti worshippers don't directly worship Her as Shakti but through a Ishta Dev
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view Hare Krishna/ISKCON as a cult, even a clasic definition of one. No one views orthadox Hinduism this way, even orthadox hindu movements which prosletze, such as
705:, in his last speech before departing from the mortal world, warned about the dangers of fraudulent gurus by saying, "The search for knowledge is never easy. As the
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I do not consider the webpages that Sam, and Raj provided as conclusive evidence that ISKCON is a new religion. The webpages described Praphupada's typical
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http://web.archive.org/web/20120317164651/http://www.swaminarayansatsang.com/library/scriptures/scriptureexplanation.asp?IDProduct=726&idcategory=2
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Raj, you may not like it that current followers of SSB, India's most popular godman, see him as their ishta-deva but it is a notable, documented fact.
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say it is like walking on the razor's edge. But for those who have strong faith and put in sustained effort and have the blessings of Shi
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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considered Rama to be his Ishta-deva. I recall reading an incident in the Mahabharata, when Krishna assumed the form of
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I would support a somewhat stronger wording, and am uncertain Sathya Sai Baba merits specific mention (altho a link to
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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http://www.swaminarayansatsang.com/library/scriptures/scriptureexplanation.asp?IDProduct=726&idcategory=2
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which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
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Encyclopedia of Spirits and Ghosts in World Mythology - Page 44 (under Devata entry) Theresa Bane · 2016
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Such worship is improper and not in accordance with Hinduism as the guru is replacing himself for God.
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means image. Idolatry is worship of a specific image. Irrelevant here, but why struggle with Andries?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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have the strange phenomenon of every disciple of a sectarian Guru claiming him to be an avatar.
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This is good information, somewhere, but probably not on this article. It is also opinionated.
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Raj removed the sentence that I had inserted that a living guru could be an Ishta-Deva but
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think this article should mention cults, but not name names. I'll try to do just that.
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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I placed them under new religious movements so as to separate them in this way.
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I agree Sathya Sai Baba has not been proven guilty by law, but I am not editing
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The Encyclopedia of Yoga and Tantra - Page 352 Georg Feuerstein · 2022
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is witheld as the Supreme Person, however, one Vaishnava may worship
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may be the Ishta-Deva of his followers, for example in the case of
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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We disagree as to its age, and other qualities as well, I assume.
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texts. Thus philosophically Iskcon shares many similarities with
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Raj, only your reaction to my neutral statement was opinionated.
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remain neutral, and present information to the reader fairly.
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does not mean there is not a concensus as to ISKCON's status.
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http://www.hinduismtoday.org/archives/1998/10/1998-10-14.shtml
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I agree with you, Sam; here's the ISKCON view of themselves,
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as their Ishta deva." That would be a neutral point of view.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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I have performed miracles, and so have great persons like
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was my Istha deva and still is for many of his followers.
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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As Swami Tapasyananda of Ramakrishna Mission said, "The
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On 25 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be
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254:project page
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236:India portal
175:
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51:WikiProjects
1602:Ratnahastin
1537:Redtigerxyz
1513:WP:ONEOTHER
1509:Ishtadevata
1466:move review
1369:Sourcecheck
696:Ramakrishna
666:, a living
569:Ishtadevata
483:the article
41:Start-class
1631:Categories
1545:Relisting.
1256:, such as
1235:Ishta deva
928:Arya Samaj
730:witchcraft
707:Upanishads
642:article.
75:Philosophy
1598:per nom.
1422:this tool
1415:this tool
1200:Narasimha
1113:Sam_Spade
1076:Sam_Spade
1047:sectarian
1026:Sam_Spade
981:Sam_Spade
959:Sam_Spade
935:Sam_Spade
897:Sam_Spade
869:Sam_Spade
814:Sam_Spade
738:Sam_Spade
687:Sivananda
654:In a few
504:Mythology
478:Mythology
433:Mythology
1495:contribs
1428:Cheers.—
1326:cbignore
1219:Tulsidas
1192:Narayana
1123:contribs
1086:contribs
1036:contribs
991:contribs
969:contribs
945:contribs
907:contribs
879:contribs
824:contribs
748:contribs
720:shastras
640:Hinduism
636:Smartism
381:Religion
359:Religion
312:Religion
129:Hinduism
120:Hinduism
70:Hinduism
1596:Support
1438::Online
1355:checked
1320:my edit
1262:Parvati
1258:Lakshmi
1244:Raj2004
1231:Hanuman
1204:Krishna
1134:Raj2004
1099:Raj2004
1051:Andries
1017:Raj2004
888:Raj2004
853:Raj2004
833:Raj2004
801:Raj2004
789:Raj2004
780:Andries
772:Raj2004
763:Andries
644:Raj2004
628:Andries
621:Andries
589:Andries
531:on the
408:on the
287:on the
156:on the
1577:, and
1561:Note:
1475:moved.
1363:failed
1334:nobots
1299:RM bot
1188:Vishnu
1009:Madhva
840:avatar
685:Swami
658:, and
602:Wetman
47:scale.
1511:– As
1275:Gizza
1266:Durga
1154:Hindu
1150:Hindu
656:cults
573:moved
563:from
561:moved
260:India
249:India
205:India
1608:talk
1489:talk
1359:true
1270:Kali
1227:Sita
1223:Rama
1196:Rama
1117:talk
1080:talk
1030:talk
985:talk
963:talk
939:talk
924:Many
901:talk
873:talk
818:talk
809:cult
742:talk
711:Hari
694:and
668:guru
598:Icon
493:and
491:good
370:and
368:good
1396:RfC
1373:).
1361:or
1346:to
1268:or
567:to
523:Low
495:1.0
400:Low
372:1.0
279:Low
148:Mid
1633::
1573:,
1569:,
1565:,
1542:—
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