3545:
rise to suggestions the court was antisemitic in its bias; the second, regarding interim decisions, such as stopping the invasion of Rafah, elicited similar reaction in Israel (Ben-Gvir et al), but we make no allusion to that decision, which was integral to the ICJ's deliberations; the third phase was the court decision in July, which produced a rat-a-tat series of antisemitic accusations. The israeli responses to phases 1, and 2, received coverage suggesting that the charge of antisemitism was 'intimidating',* 'instrumental' etc., (even if weaponizing wasn't used, as far as I can see). The final July decision did not elicit rebuttals of the 'false' assertions it was motivated by antisemitism (no one outside of Israel seems to take that ritual chant seriously). So it is a borderline call: in phases 1,2, the antisemitic charge was responded to as an abuse of the word (weaponization), phase 3 no. If the last sentence was formulated to refer to the whole arc of the ICJ's deliberations, January, May, July, then it would be reasonable to retain the weaponization link, particularly in view of the fact that antisemitic accusations are very serious, fine when justified, but toxically defamatory when shorn of any evidence. Linking to weaponization doesn't state in wikivoice that these mechanical assertions are such - it merely directs the reader to examine the wider context of many such political statements. We leave antisemitism hanging in the lead without qualification, and that is not quite NPOV as phrased.
1638:
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the
Occupied Palestinian Territory ('settlers') are predominantly Israelis, as well as non-Israeli Jews who qualify for Israeli nationality under Israeli legislation." This description matches the distinction which Israel makes between the two types of resident, such as whether civilian or military law is applied to them. The fact that non-Israeli Jews who qualify for Israeli nationality under the Law of Return are treated the same as citizens in the OT is not well known but it is true. An Arab living in a settlement or outpost is a "settler" (there are a small number of them). A Jew who lives in the OT but not in a settlement or outpost is not literally included, but this is a point that the lawyers might like to argue about.
3401:
made such a finding." Also, as regards the still ongoing CERD proceedings "CERD has yet to reach a final decision in this case. With a strong finding of a breach of
Article 3 from the ICJ and several judicial opinions interpreting this as a finding of apartheid, this may well create a platform for CERD to determine the issue." & "The questions put by UNGA to the Court āconcern Israelās "discriminatory legislation and measures" under international human rights law and not apartheid as an international crime." "the Opinion considered that the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute 'can inform the interpretation of Article 3 of CERD'".
3777:"Restitution includes Israelās obligation to return the land and other immovable property, as well as all assets seized from any natural or legal person since its occupation started in 1967, and all cultural property and assets taken from Palestinians and Palestinian institutions, including archives and documents. It also requires the evacuation of all settlers from existing settlements and the dismantling of the parts of the wall constructed by Israel that are situated in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, as well as allowing all Palestinians displaced during the occupation to return to their original place of residence."
2803:
expertise. It makes little sense to rush into covering a minor highly contentious point that arose within a day or two of a historic judgement that even today is barely 4 days old. Give it at least two weeks to see how specialists address the issue. We should write to have enduring, stable text, and exercise patience to that end. I say that as someone who has no problem is thinking that Israel's occupation of
Palestinian lands deserves the label apartheid even if, as Chomsky and many others have stated, the WB situation is far worse than the classic example of apartheid (South Africa).
3421:
If editors wish to discuss potential 'weaponization' of antisemitism in regards to this case, then it should have it's own section or should be added to the existing article. But to quote political leaders of Israel (regardless of what ill repute they may be) in an encyclopedic article and then add your own interpretation of what they said is basically tantamount to adding "here's what they REALLY mean/this is what it ACTUALLY is" which is so beneath encyclopedic standards and npov. This is particularly relevant when you consider that the relationship between
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2970:, which will cover both the decision from a legal perspective and, in all probability, the confusion in secondary newspaper accounts published immediately after the decision was made known, it's fair to presume that we will have a first RS which handles this for us, without our patching up (at the risk of WP:OR) an account that tries to sort out such incongruencies. Patience is a virtue except when it is played to kill time.
3745:
Israeli law is "pipelined" to the settlements, then that makes them
Israeli citizens and so they constitute a "presence"? That's getting into the weeds a bit, I will see if I can find anything else on that. Idk if there are any Palestinian citizens of Israel in the settlements, possible I suppose, if a bit unlikely, another question there. I know that settlement units have been sold abroad, I would guess to dual citizens.
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on both aspects. Eventually, physical segregation and legislative discrimination aspects would have to be termed, and that is where the court explicitly says this is indeed at least segregation but not explicitly also apartheid (even though there is no difference and the CERD 3rd article says "and" not "or"). But it does indeed say implicitly that this is the case by saying it violated article 3.
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power. Israeli settlers in the West Bank includes Jewish
Israelis and to a much lesser degree Arab Israelis or other non-Jewish Israelis. So, yes, in short, supposedly, the evacuation of Israeli settlers from the West Bank includes virtually all Jews living there, including from the Old City in East Jerusalem. This is obviously in theory and as a matter of adherence to international law.
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2344:, I think this is what we ought to pay more attention to, the ICC warrants that have been requested notably do not include potential charges over the settlement issue but now, after this opinion (I prefer to think of it as an authoritative statement of the law), that low hanging fruit is there for the picking, I will be very interested to see whether the ICC goes for it.
3711:"The court said Israel's presence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are unlawful and must be ended as soon as possible, including by evacuating Jewish settlers from the territories." The transfer of Israeli citizens into Israeli settlements has long been seen as illegal so it's not an odd thing to say. I could try to look it up exactly in the opinion, is that enough?
1374:
consequences themselves. Moreover, the way the lede is structured is a bit clunky: "The ICJ case is a proceeding in the
International Court of Justice (ICJ)". In my opinion, the lede should either use the name of the case in question as it was before the move (but keeping the current title) or rework it to not include either, something along the lines of: "An
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If a notable expert sees essentially no difference between segregation and apartheid, then that can be quoted or summarised. After all, whether all forms of racism are "a single thing" or are distinct by nuances or are hugely and fundamentally different from one another is one of the key issues of the whole I/P conflict.
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said before and I think the RS is picking that up, the sum total of the whole opinion (the US was complaining about its "breadth"), the illegality (whatever words you use to describe that) of virtually everything Israel is doing in its occupation, that is the thing that is going to hit home the hardest. My 2 cents.
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It is hard to see, by any standard, how the ICJ (and the ICC and the UN and any other international body that criticizes the
Israeli government for its actions) can be called antisemitic by representatives of the accused, unless the accusation is for political gain, in other words, a weaponization of
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We are not prioritizing 3, we are saying to wait for authoritative sourcing (3 is written by a qualified lawyer and and you did not mention the other legal view, EJIL that agrees with 3). Essentially you are saying we should ignore lawyerly interpretations of an opinion about legal issues in favor of
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stated that the situation is apartheid while avoiding it in legal terms, or think that the ICJ chose this wording in order to achieve consensus among the judges, then we can report that as part of the debate in interpreting the ruling. But this is separate from the ICJ's chosen wording in its ruling.
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section. E.g. something along the lines of "The ICJ stated ..." (i.e. it decided to avoid specifically saying "the situation is apartheid"); HRW interpreted this with the statement, "...", Gross/Haaretz (sorry, I've only browsed the discussion, I haven't actually checked) interpeted this ... In other
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Yep, but the issue is not the reality there, or our personal views, but what a source can be said to state. Some sources did not read it correctly for its intrinsic ambiguity, and, nota bene, in arriving at a broad consensus judgment in these venues, every word reflects a mediation, every paragraph a
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That is why a close reading of the text will not conclude that the court recognized (the obvious) apartheid nature of the 'separation'. A majority of judges were not ready to make this highly specific determination, which would have almost immediately led to a formal indictment of Israel for a 'crime
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Self is correct. I read the 87 page verdict when it came out, and the way the two mentions of it at 223-224, p.65 are phrased clearly show the court heard, but decided not to enter into the merits of this claim. Yes, secondary sources, newspapers, occasionally got this wrong, and it is to be expected
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I still don't understand this part: "amount to a form of segregation in the occupied territories, although it did not decide whether the segregation was in fact apartheid." We have plenty of RS including HRW and AI saying that they had indeed said it amounted to apartheid. So why are we giving fringe
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Regarding this: "Israel countered the opinion by stating that a political settlement can only be attained through diplomatic negotiations"; this was actually addressed by the ICJ which explicitly said that
Palestinian rights are not subject to the whim's of the occupying power; so why was this added?
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I saw this earlier this morning, but while thinking the link ('related information' in wikipolicy) justifiable, had some reservations as Sean has. Part of the problem is that the ICJ rulings were in three stages and we cover in the lead two. The original decision to accept SA's brief in
January gave
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Linking to 'Weaponization of antisemitism' in the bottom paragraph of the lead section ("Israeli leaders and politicians further decried the ruling as antisemitic") appears like a total violation of npov. Particularly when the linked source doesn't even mention, let alone support, such an inference.
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First, there is no difference between segregation and apartheid; as apartheid just means apartness, i.e. segregation. It could be argued that segregation would be a physical aspect and apartheid is a more institutionalized and legislative aspect, but the court explicitly indicted the state of Israel
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particularly severe forms,' two distinct if related forms of discrimination, 'racial segregation' and 'apartheid', in a strictly legal perspective they cannot be conflated as interchangeable. There is elbow room for any legal scholar to argue (a dodge, perhaps,. but correct until clarified in later
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To keep it simple; 1948-1967, zero Jews lived in the West Bank, and there are no Jewish citizens of
Palestine. After 1967, every Israeli citizen currently residing permanently in the West Bank is a settler, as they had moved in there due to their transfer by the Israeli state, which is an occupying
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passed by the court says "Is of the opinion that the State of Israel is under an obligation to cease immediately all new settlement activities, and to evacuate all settlers from the Occupied Palestinian Territory". In the discussion (para 68), it says "The residents of settlements and 'outposts' in
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Thanks. Given there is no controversy over the racial segregation and discrimination part, would you support: "The court also ruled that Israeli policies and legistlation maintain a system of systemic discrimination and segregation against Palestinians, violating the International Convention on the
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As mentioned before, if RS change so can the phrasing; WP is a constantly changing medium of information according to how RS change, so we are not trying to settle this overnight; we are simply reflecting what RS says in real-time. I will take this suggestion as a temporary solution and still think
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So why are we prioritizing (3) a fringe phrasing by an non-independent, conflicting and unspecialized source at the expense of (1) and (2)? If RS change so can the phrasing, no need to wait for two weeks when this issue is off the public spotlight. I am still of the opinion that (2) is an excellent
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Look, there is agreement about a conflict in sources. We differ in evaluation. We're writing an encyclopedia and one aim is to gradually ensure that fly-by-day/night instantaneous newspaper responses to breaking news sources be replaced by solid retrospective RS that wear some authority, reflecting
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I have made this edit myself (and before having read this part of the talk page at that), since nowhere in the source does it give any opinion from a reliable source calling it weaponization (should one be found, that should be added as a separate clause or sentence). And a Knowledge (XXG) editor's
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Otoh, the ICJ was not really focused on the specific issue of apartheid (where the judges are likely to disagree, see their individual opinions) and was taking a more broad overview of all of the Israeli practices, and all of them taken together not just one by one was a point they also made. As I
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We now have some more detailed legal analysis. Confirms "a breach of Article 3 could refer to racial segregation, apartheid, or both. This is seen in the Separate Opinions, some of which considered the finding of a breach of Article 3 as a finding of apartheid; others believing the Court had not
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It's not Haaretz, it's Aeyal Gross, who is well qualified to opine on the matter (and if you read the actual ICJ opinion which I wrote out at Israel and apartheid article, he is not really wrong is he?) Also Amnesty and HRW will want to, naturally enough, look for endorsement of reports that they
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On the particular point:- "The International Court of Justice has established that certain human rights obligations apply to Israel, including in relation to the occupied territories. It has established a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which
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Yep, so the argument runs that apartheid and segregation are two separate things (225) and that it is a breach of Article 3 either way (229) but we (the court) are not going to explicitly say which it is (which is a pain in the neck but if you look at the individual judges opinions, I think they
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Afaics, you are able to edit the article yourself if you wish to. For myself "The exploitation of accusations of antisemitism for political purposes, especially to counter anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel" (what it says at the Wikilink) appears to be an accurate description of the situation,
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Most media reports (possibly erroneously) say that amounts to apartheid and a couple don't. So a simple sentence saying: "Most but not all media reports have interpreted this breach as amounting to instituting apartheid". (thereby making it clear that this is journos rather than legal secondary
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JNS is a biased source, but maybe reliable enough. The opinion says "the transfer by Israel of settlers to the West Bank and Jerusalem as well as Israelās maintenance of their presence, is contrary to article 49 of the 4th Geneva convention" The descendants thing Idk but I would say that since
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Yes, that's what I would expect now, a ratcheting up of the pressure with the idea of forcing Israel to agree to not only and end to the Gaza war but to focus on "the day after". Have you read the individual judge opinions? Salam was maybe the most clear "āto focus specifically on two of these
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I think the most appropriate middle ground solution -for now- would be to say it the way RS like the Intercept and the Guardian framed it: "also found Israel to be violating an international agreement against racial segregation and apartheid;" without elaborating whether it did label Israel as
3515:
Well, I never added the link to begin with but I have to say I agree entirely with the proposition, at the link it says at line 1 "The exploitation of accusations of antisemitism for political purposes, especially to counter anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel" which is exactly what this is.
1373:
I agree with the move to the current title, but the lede is certainly problematic, much as the title itself, it should not be in italics, when the title was the same as the name of the case (and in italics) it indicated that this article was about a case with that name and not about the legal
3239:
Also another Haaretz article: "The court asserted that the regime that Israel administers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem was similar to the apartheid regime in South Africa because of the different legal systems for settlers and Palestinians and the physical separation between the two."
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We'll probably in duke horse get to something like that. I just think it dangerous to give any impression that wiki text is written on the wing to get polemical/political traction (depending of editorial POVs). I believe there are good reasons to suspect that the sources for the separation =
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If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is
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also took a swipe at Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his labelling of the International Criminal Court (ICC) chief prosecutor Karim Khan decision to seek arrest warrants against some Israeli politicians as evidence of "new antisemitism". Borrell called the comment a form of
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The FT says "The court said these policies were in breach of an international agreement against racial segregation and apartheid, called the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination." That is correct and does not say that the situation is apartheid.
3429:, and the possibility that the source of that bias is antisemitism, being much discussed. Whether one believes accusations of anti-Israel bias at the UN are accurate or not is irrelevant: It's a major point of dispute and to take sides by simply waving your hand and saying "lies. slander.
2627:
We're all familiar with the vice of news reportsd. loazy and partisan meme repetition. Yes, mainly on israel's behaĆ²lf but here, arguably, also functioning re the Palestinian side. So rather than play the balancing memes battle, we should wait for authoritative legally informed specialist
2787:
I still think we need to wait a bit on the segregation/apartheid thing, for this article we should first concentrate on those parts of the judgement where there is a clear consensus in sources on what the opinion said and get that down pat, before struggling with the unclear bits.
2877:. A proposal: "The court found that Israel practices systemic discrimination and segregation against Palestinians and that this in violation of an international treaty on segregation and apartheid, but sources differ on whether apartheid was meant." Would you support that?
2649:"As always, there was a price for obtaining that consensus: ambiguities and silences in the Courtās analysis on some important points (for example, on whether Israelās practices in the OPT amount to apartheid, or whether Palestine has already achieved statehood)."
2914:
If you think we have prioritized 3, then cut the lead sentence to read only "The court also ruled that Israeli policies violate the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination" and just leave it at that for the time being.
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writing in Guardian: ā Moreover, āāāalthough the finding was hidden in legaleseāāā, the court ruled that Israel has imposed a regime of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territory by virtue of its systematic discrimination against Palestinian residents.ā
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Significantly, the ICJ found Israelās laws and measures maintained āa near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian communitiesā and these breached the international prohibition on āracial segregation and
2425:, as this would be the common name of this institutionalized system of discrimination. And we can still mention this institutionalized system of discrimination and segregation in the lede here, without saying the court disagreed on the apartheid analogy.
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that, in this case, 'pro-Palestinian' editorialists or partisans might begin to trust those instead of the original and those who like Gross competently gloss it. Since the court made no such deliberation, we simply ignore the misprision as it crops up.
3516:
Sourcing containing the actual word "weaponization" is not necessary as long as there is sourcing that clearly indicates what is going on, perhaps I will spend some time looking for some, rather than instead giving credence to nonsensical allegations.
2897:, obviously tends to the Palestinian perspective, they say "An extensive summary of the advisory opinion along with an analysis of its main pillars will be released soon by Law for Palestine." and meanwhile, on the issue at hand here, they only say:
3725:
I'd be curious to know if the court said "Jewish settlers" or "Israeli settlers" must be evacuated. Also wondering if JNS is RS on this topic. Finally, does the definition of "settlers" include their descendants who were born in the West Bank?
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There is quite a good number of information that could be added, including for example the bits that I have just inserted into the lede. More elaborations needed in body on ICJ's 2004 case; settlements expansion; apartheid analogy; and more.
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Oxfam says ""The Court confirmed that Israel is committing the crime of apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which is one of the most serious international crimes." Again, press release not convincing, again I think it is wrong.
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intimidation, saying accusations of antisemitism were made every time that anyone "does something that Netanyahu doesn't like." "Their position about antisemitism against the prosecutor of the ICC is completely not acceptable," he added.
2413:
Either way these are all personal interpretations, and we are left to RS, which almost unanimously agree that the ruling said it had amounted to apartheid, except for one Haaretz article that was contradicted by another on the following
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Amnesty says "Israelās occupation and annexation of the Palestinian territories are unlawful, and its discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians violate the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid." which is correct.
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225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: āStates Parties particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction.ā
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apartheid are reading into that cautiously phrased text something that is not 'explicitly' stated. And since it is a matter of technical legal interpretation we should wait for several area experts with that qualification to clarify.
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2900:"The Court concluded that Israelās policies and practices violate Article 3 of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, specifically the prohibition against segregation and apartheid." (ie like 2).
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The court said the occupation is de facto annexation, answering the core question it was asked to address. It added that the occupation consists of "systematic discrimination, segregation and" ā here comes the dreaded a-word ā
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Seems that the sole Haaretz article is in the minority and does not represent current mainstream RS views. I don't think we should wait for further RS; WP can be a real-time reflection of RS if they later somehow change.
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The Israeli government has long rejected claims of apartheid, but the ICJ ruling is consistent with allegations levelled by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the Jerusalem-based non-government organisation
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did not directly address the antisemitic accusations against the ICJ, but in an aside took exception to Netanyahu's dismissal of the concurrent proceedings of the ICC. The situations are identical but only implicitly
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I have only read the apartheid-related parts there, in an attempt to understand the general ruling's sections on apartheid. Seems more and more RS are interpreting the ruling in line with the mentioned view of Salam.
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If you insist on doing something right now, then I agree with Boud, the issue needs to be addressed comprehensively in the article body as a first step rather than debating what precise language we should use in the
3500:
I don't disagree, but it doesn't matter how I see it. Since some people throw the word antisemitic around like candy, maybe it's an example of the candification of antisemitism. Either way, it needs decent sourcing.
3904:
If the OPT = SoP (one occupied, one claimed but same territory), then the applicable law of Palestine would determine who could be a resident or citizen independently of any international law requirement to vacate.
3876:
What do you mean by "A Jew who lives in the OT but not in a settlement or outpost is not literally included"? If they are not living in a settlement or outpost, but living in OPT, then where would they be living?
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HRW says "including, for the first time, finding Israel responsible for apartheid" HRW is reliable, like Amnesty for its reports, I am not convinced by this press release tho. And I think it is actually wrong.
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Now, if with a bit of time, this proportion continues like that, then we will have a situation of conflicting sources but it is noteworthy (atm) the absence of some big name RS, Beeb, WAPO, NYT etcetera.
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229. The Court observes that Israelās legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian communities.
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policies which, in my view, demonstrate the systematic and deliberate nature of Israelās conduct in breach of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, namely settlement and apartheid."
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Yea, I don't know where they got that from, it's in quotes but I can't find it anywhere and attributed to a couple Haaretz authors plus AP plus Reuters so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.
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Even in case the disagreement among us continues, this would be only a matter of semantics; Israel was still explicitly indicted on operating an institutionalized system of discrimination. Thus,
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The problem is it is just the media (rather than considered RS) highlighting this but it can't be ignored because of that. Wouldn't it best to just report closely only what we know, which is:
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The Intercept says "The court also notably declared Israelās mistreatment of Palestinians to be a form of segregation and apartheid" OK, it is RS but I don't agree that's what the court said.
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3169:"report on the implications of this advisory opinion for the responsibility the State of Israel, the State of Palestine, third States, and where appropriate business entities, and the UN."
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Can you provide a link to that? Am I correcting assuming that the court case and the resolution called for the evacuation of Israelis and not Jews? Should be added to the article?
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Given the nature of this discussion, maybe I should have just removed the line from the lead pending discussion. I didn't consider whether it was lead-worthy. Perhaps it isn't.
1487:, as it says āThe ICJ case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories refers to a caseā. Obviously the case doesnāt refer to a case, instead the case just IS a case.
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Other interesting things apart from the illegality of occupation, status of East Jerusalem (and the attendant WB annex), Gaza was/still is occupied, there is a lot in there.
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Perhaps change the verb from "countered", which it didn't if the point was already addressed, to "re-stated"? Or just "said". Either way, "countered" is editorializing.
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I would rather quote the opinion directly (in the article body), not sure if there is a secondary that does so rather than using the primary, I will have another look.
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It's audio (at the end) and they talk about ambiguity and the court not detailing how Israel was in breach, etcetera. So, I don't think we a re any further ahead yet.
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For the two vote tables in the article, I think it would be helpful to include a world map color coding each country's vote. I've made maps for the two vote tables.
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I don't mean to be pedantic but just because the judgment condemns the transfer of settlers to the west bank didn't mean it is calling for their evacuation, right?
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Okay, now I see how this was open to interpretation and understand your point of view. I think this is a valid interpretation that is nevertheless conservative.
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3295:"Perhaps most seriously, the court determined that Israel administers a system of racial segregation and possibly even apartheid in the occupied territories."
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Seems odd both for this article and the others not to have ICJ in the title. "Advisory opinion..." seems to fail Precision. "ICJ opinion on..." works better.
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The US said pretty much the same thing, the judgement is not within the "established framework". To which one possible response is -- change the framework.
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Six RS (seven if you count Haaretz's other article; or consider Haaretz an independent RS) have said the court characterized this as apartheid, including
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I would reiterate that there is a lot more to this opinion than just apartheid, in some respects it is much more damning than a "mere" apartheid finding.
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have argued that Israelās policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD.
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So, looking at it what we have is FT and Amnesty are in line with Gross and then we have the Guardian, Intercept, HRW and Oxfam saying it is apartheid.
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For example, not all suburbs of East Jerusalem would be classified as settlements if they pre-existed. The ICJ did not go into this level of detail.
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Yes, I would say that it is a breach of NPOV to leave the puerile allegations of antisemitism in the lead without any qualification whatsoever.
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Can't access the article neither through log in nor WP library for some reason but it might address this point or a point very closely related:
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Germanyās Reaction to the International Court of Justiceās Palestine Advisory Opinion: 'The Opinion Confirms Our Positioning in Many Points'
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Israeli politicians calling the court, its judges, the opinion and even just the request for an opinion, antisemitic (among other things).
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It seems you are not EC, so there is nothing further to discuss. Nor do I have any interest in your opinion as to my grasp of WP policies.
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38:, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
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I want to change existing '...is a proceeding bedore the International Court of Justice' to before the International Court of Justice.
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covered by CERN were practiced. Israeli lawyers would argue that there is ample wriggle room here to deny that the official policy of
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I think the maps could be put alongside the tables in their respective sections, but I'm not sure if the tables are too wide for that.
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The court did indeed deliberate on article 3 of CERD relating to segregation and apartheid, and was explicit in its advisory opinion:
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Iām not able to edit the article myself. And your personal opinion does not override Knowledge (XXG)ās neutral point of view policy.
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apartheid.' 'Or' has two functions: (a) to flag an alternative ('either . .or') (b) to gloss parenthetically ('or in other words').
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would not have been able to collectively say that it is apartheid but that they could agree that it is (at least) segregation).
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The NYT is known for extreme mental gymnastics while reporting on anything negative about Israel, I wouldnāt prioritize them.
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I also said and still say we should wait a bit for the dust to settle and the analysis to appear. There really is no rush.
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A news item involving ICJ case on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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For this reason, the Court considers that Israelās legislation and measures constitute a breach of Article 3 of CERD.
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middle ground solution to these three options and is supported by RS rather than by our personal interpretations.
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This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/19/un-demands-israel-end-occupation-of-palestine-how-did-your-country-vote
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It's not as if there is anything new here, representatives of the Israeli government do this all the time.
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prohibits racial segregation and apartheid. However, ā¦ the ICJ has not decided on one of the two options."
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Then add a footnote listing the media who have said that and Haaretz and the other one that says otherwise.
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Art. 229 states that there's a breach of Article 3 CERD because of the separation policy - so let's have a
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This is legal language, therefore every word, comma etc., must be carefully weighed. The core point is the
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felt compelled to put every such accusation in quotes in this context rather than stating that as a fact.
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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A Synopsis of ICJ Finding Israelās Occupation of Palestinian Territory in Violation of International Law
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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It might be worth considering an article just for the possible effects and interpretations of the AO.
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I think Iāll wait for someone with a better grasp of Knowledge (XXG) policy to help with this thanks.
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is relevant, although the court may comment on other matters that were raised during the proceedings.
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Netanyahu frequently makes claims of antisemitism. Critics say heās deflecting from his own problems
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I am not stopping you from editing but I will add Harretz/EJIL and other counterviews in that case.
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The court en toto didn't disagree on the apartheid analogy. We discussed what the court said above.
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The final line of the lede should have 2024 instead of 2004 for the date of the UNGA resolution.
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would be a more appropriate link option? I tend towards the first option, since the ruling is on
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Apparently, this other Haaretz article disagrees and says it was both segregation and apartheid.
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3287:(DAWNMENA) Why the ICJ Ruling Against Israel's Occupation Is a Legal Earthquake, in Slow Motion
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cases) that 'racial segregation' exists in a reality where, however, apartheid is not realized.
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I'm aware, just that I think these things will be better elucidated/added in a week's time.
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And your personal opinion does not override Knowledge (XXG)ās neutral point of view policy.
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The court's determination that CERD was breached, but refrained from fingering explicitly
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Since the language of CERD Article 3 explicitly distinguishes, in writing (art.225) 'of
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Can't access the article from log in nor from WP library, any other possible options?
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I've fixed up the itaslics in the lead but don't know how to fix them for the article.
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Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory
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The first sentence in the section āPolitical responses in Israelā contains a link to
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Just noting that in the map on the right Turkey is grey - should be green I believe.
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RS, which almost unanimously agree that the ruling said it had amounted to apartheid
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UN General Assembly passes resolution calling for Jerusalem Old City to be Jew-free
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One more compromise that should settle this issue; mentioning both (2) and (3) per
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Do we have a WP article on the latest UNGA resolution? I think we might need one.
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following that precedent, don't like anything that begins "Advisory opinion...".
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that any more neutral a stance. However, on a repeat look I wonder if either of
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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran
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account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days)
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Sanders hits back at Netanyahu: āIt is not antisemitic to hold you accountableā
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we should at the very least mention (2) -supported by RS- in any possible way.
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That ball would go back to the ICC, which has the juridical competence to act.
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You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in
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Legal consequences of Israel's policies in the Occupied Palestinian Territory
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compromise, so that the cited passages must be read in terms of the latter.
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would seem to be the most concise and precise way of condensing the output:
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on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories was requested to the
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This is specifically about the ICJ decision rather than the general issue.
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and says in Line 1 "(commonly known as the Israeli Wall advisory opinion)".
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I think you are correct, the link appears to be inconsistent with policy.
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Phase 2. In an interview re the ICJ's stop order for the Rafah invasion,
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Can you please implement your proposed sentence as I am unable to do so?
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3398:'Racial Segregation and Apartheid' in the ICJ Palestine Advisory Opinion
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Advisory Opinion on the Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons
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procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the
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in violation of the third article of CERD on segregation and apartheid
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Advisory opinion on Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories
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Borrell accuses Netanyahu of false claims of antisemitism against ICC
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Please change "International Court of Justice has been "hijacked by
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There's not really that much else to add atm, obviously the article
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Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
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https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/ltd/n24/266/48/pdf/n2426648.pdf
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did not rule explicitly about apartheid but only about segregation
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personal opinion on whether it is or isn't weaponization wouldn't
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The italics in the title was an automatic result of the template
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The NYT must still be figuring out how to write a proper story.
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1984:."" into "International Court of Justice has been "hijacked by
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024
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Haaretz, the Gross article was after the other one not before.
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024 (3)
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024 (2)
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against humanity', and the emission of appropriate mandates.
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Haaretz, which has a conflict of interest, more due weight?
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where I expect quite a few will weigh in with time. He says
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without saying the court disagreed on the apartheid analogy
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Personally, I'd be inclined to wait and see what they say.
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Netanyahu confronts his critics by exploiting antisemitism
2318:'separation' is coterminous with the full implications of
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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024
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sourcing from the press with only superficial analysis.
2836:(3) There is one minor Haaretz source stating the court
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Criticism of Israel#Criticism of Israel and antisemitism
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UN's Special Political and Decolonization Committee vote
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Advisory opinion on Kosovo's declaration of independence
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Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge (XXG)
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just mentioned systematic discrimination with no detail
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I happen to personally agree with this interpretation.
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Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination."?
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I was looking for a source that quoted the opinion.
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quote of that. + an explanation of what Art. 3 says.
924:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
485:
Timeline of the IsraeliāPalestinian conflict in 2005
318:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2701:words, if notable experts consider the ICJ to have
938:
Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject International relations
2692:I think it would be justified to add a subsection
1716:Whoops, thanks for catching that. It's fixed now.
1483:I canāt change it, but this is a horrible case of
2903:And I will say it once more, we are not going to
2772:apartheid. Would you support such a compromise?
1265:Article needs urgent expansion before 19 July..
4066:Mid-importance International relations articles
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1282:Legality of the Israeli occupation of Palestine
671:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Israel
1461:I am fine with the proposed opening sentence.
4086:Unknown-importance International law articles
1072:This page has archives. Sections older than
8:
4096:WikiProject International relations articles
941:Template:WikiProject International relations
656:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
2895:Law4Palestine which is a site I quite like
1382:(ICJ) through a resolution adopted by the
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586:Israel articles missing geocoordinate data
470:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration
431:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles
411:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
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4051:Mid-importance Palestine-related articles
2340:Yes, I think that's where we are. On the
4061:B-Class International relations articles
1908:Anti-Zionism#Allegations of antisemitism
821:on Knowledge (XXG). Join us by visiting
641:Knowledge (XXG) requested maps in Israel
2423:Israel's apartheid against Palestinians
1847:Iām not able to edit the article myself
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1559:2A00:23C5:E01D:F201:1CDB:C602:662D:D8BD
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1082:when more than 5 sections are present.
3809:It's para 270 on p 74 of the opinion
2966:Since we will have an expert opinion
2466:I saw one, the Guardian, what others?
839:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Palestine
825:, where you can add your name to the
7:
4011:Knowledge (XXG) In the news articles
2907:overnight, we should wait for a bit.
2342:the emission of appropriate mandates
1799:. That link should not be there per
918:This article is within the scope of
803:This article is within the scope of
312:This article is within the scope of
211:This article is within the scope of
27:Warning: active arbitration remedies
4076:WikiProject United Nations articles
921:WikiProject International relations
500:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel
221:and the subjects encompassed by it.
154:It is of interest to the following
4081:B-Class International law articles
4046:B-Class Palestine-related articles
1849:Why not? Was your EC status reset?
1443:Thanks (also for the explanation).
1386:(UNGA) in December 2022." Cheers,
1210:ICJ opinion on Israel's occupation
1147:The 2004 AO re the wall is titled
425:Unassessed Israel-related articles
332:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Israel
14:
3984:Knowledge (XXG) article I meant.
2054:Jumped in there and just did it.
1076:may be automatically archived by
620:Israel articles needing attention
603:Israel articles needing infoboxes
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3172:And so the repercussions begin.
2817:There is a conflict of phrasing:
2513:(all four RS per WP) as well as
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446:Cleanup listing for this project
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1384:United Nations General Assembly
958:This article has been rated as
859:This article has been rated as
636:Module:Location map/data/Israel
352:This article has been rated as
247:This article has been rated as
227:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Law
4056:WikiProject Palestine articles
3994:07:47, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
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3703:18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
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2216:224. A number of participants
1380:International Court of Justice
842:Template:WikiProject Palestine
583:Add geographic coordinates to
497:Participate in discussions at
1:
3423:Israel and the United Nations
3103:Very interesting phrasing by
2694:Segregration versus apartheid
1797:Weaponization of antisemitism
1753:10:37, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
1003:WikiProject International law
1000:This article is supported by
980:This article is supported by
932:and see a list of open tasks.
326:and see a list of open tasks.
75:contentious topics procedures
3685:I came across this article "
1093:The new name is used by RS:
668:Add pictures to articles in
44:You must be logged-in to an
4041:WikiProject Israel articles
4021:Low-importance law articles
3646:to reactivate your request.
3634:has been answered. Set the
1974:to reactivate your request.
1962:has been answered. Set the
1789:to reactivate your request.
1777:has been answered. Set the
1625:to reactivate your request.
1613:has been answered. Set the
1548:to reactivate your request.
1536:has been answered. Set the
555:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu
335:Template:WikiProject Israel
4112:
3411:11:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
2133:have given earlier, right?
983:WikiProject United Nations
964:project's importance scale
865:project's importance scale
845:Palestine-related articles
638:. Add maps to articles in
519:Diamond industry in Israel
358:project's importance scale
253:project's importance scale
63:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
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2421:can still be turned into
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2368:16:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
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2015:09:53, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
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1928:21:26, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
1893:14:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
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1439:01:49, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
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1396:20:41, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
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1343:19:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
1326:11:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
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1297:11:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
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1251:14:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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1205:19:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
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4026:WikiProject Law articles
1241:is a legal term of art.
578:Geographical coordinates
230:Template:WikiProject Law
71:normal editorial process
1121:Should this be renamed
935:International relations
926:International relations
888:International relations
547:Public Defence (Israel)
448:is available. See also
338:Israel-related articles
3681:Jews living in the OPT
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2312:which of the two forms
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67:standards of behaviour
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3068:Not bad in what way?
2822:amounted to apartheid
2519:Amnesty International
1667:General Assembly vote
1425:; I disabled it with
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806:WikiProject Palestine
369:Project Israel To Do:
148:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
123:
53:limited circumstances
36:ArabāIsraeli conflict
4016:B-Class law articles
2644:at EJIL (legal blog)
2419:Israel and apartheid
1855:Neither does yours.
1331:Fronting the outcome
454:the tool's wiki page
450:the list by category
3970:and this the vote.
2642:We have one lawyer
1557:It is just a typo.
1388:Shrek 5 the divorce
718:Translate to Hebrew
3709:According to Axios
3435:ChristofferItzakah
1992:š§The Cheesedealer
1420:Infobox court case
997:
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819:State of Palestine
815:Palestinian people
634:See discussion at
315:WikiProject Israel
150:content assessment
126:
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32:contentious topics
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3859:actual motion
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3583:27 May 2024.
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3561:Josep Borrell
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3291:Michael Sfard
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2746:Middle ground
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2503:The Intercept
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543:Nachum Heiman
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3632:edit request
3590:Sean.hoyland
3570:
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3454:Sean.hoyland
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3419:
3396:
3389:
3202:
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2499:The Guardian
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2164:
2161:"apartheid."
2159:
2108:
2023:
2004:
1995:
1989:
1985:
1981:
1979:
1971:
1960:edit request
1915:
1911:
1899:
1794:
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1775:edit request
1740:
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1611:edit request
1578:Already done
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233:law articles
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156:WikiProjects
113:20 July 2024
104:
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60:
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29:
3986:Makeandtoss
3972:Selfstudier
3964:This be it.
3948:Makeandtoss
3928:Makeandtoss
3907:Selfstudier
3853:Vice regent
3825:Selfstudier
3811:Selfstudier
3779:Selfstudier
3747:Selfstudier
3713:Selfstudier
3668:Selfstudier
3532:Iskandar323
3518:Selfstudier
3488:Selfstudier
3403:Selfstudier
3333:Selfstudier
3319:Makeandtoss
3312:Selfstudier
3297:Selfstudier
3274:Makeandtoss
3259:Selfstudier
3244:Makeandtoss
3227:Selfstudier
3210:Makeandtoss
3196:apartheidā.
3189:Selfstudier
3174:Selfstudier
3154:Makeandtoss
3140:Selfstudier
3113:Makeandtoss
3099:Selfstudier
3084:Selfstudier
3070:Makeandtoss
3056:Selfstudier
3039:Selfstudier
3025:Makeandtoss
3010:Makeandtoss
3004:Selfstudier
2989:Makeandtoss
2917:Selfstudier
2879:Makeandtoss
2861:Selfstudier
2846:Makeandtoss
2790:Selfstudier
2774:Makeandtoss
2767:Selfstudier
2703:effectively
2696:within the
2651:Selfstudier
2615:Selfstudier
2597:Selfstudier
2582:Selfstudier
2567:Selfstudier
2552:Selfstudier
2538:Selfstudier
2523:Makeandtoss
2493:Selfstudier
2471:Selfstudier
2427:Makeandtoss
2395:Selfstudier
2374:Selfstudier
2346:Selfstudier
2263:Selfstudier
2245:Makeandtoss
2200:Selfstudier
2167:Selfstudier
2139:Selfstudier
2119:Makeandtoss
2112:Selfstudier
2091:Selfstudier
2073:Makeandtoss
2056:Iskandar323
2042:Iskandar323
2027:Makeandtoss
2007:Selfstudier
1982:islamicists
1914:and not on
1885:Selfstudier
1857:Selfstudier
1820:Selfstudier
1745:Bunnypranav
1719:SheepTester
1688:SheepTester
1504:Selfstudier
1478:WP:REFERSTO
1463:Makeandtoss
1349:Makeandtoss
1335:Selfstudier
1318:Selfstudier
1304:Makeandtoss
1289:Selfstudier
1267:Makeandtoss
1226:Iskandar323
1160:Selfstudier
1125:? See e.g.
1103:Makeandtoss
1089:Name change
1079:ClueBot III
831:discussions
462:Collaborate
219:legal field
110:section on
106:In the news
4005:Categories
3636:|answered=
2936:WP:PRIMARY
1964:|answered=
1779:|answered=
1615:|answered=
1581:Left guide
1538:|answered=
1333:as usual.
731:Guy Oseary
523:Edna Arbel
206:Law portal
3888:on reply)
3802:on reply)
3770:on reply)
3737:on reply)
3700:on reply)
3547:Nishidani
3474:Also see
3427:with bias
3204:BāTselem.
2972:Nishidani
2805:Nishidani
2753:Nishidani
2728:Nishidani
2698:#Analyses
2630:Nishidani
2486:Nishidani
2442:Nishidani
2402:Nishidani
2360:Nishidani
2328:Nishidani
2320:apartheid
2207:Nishidani
2185:Nishidani
2105:Apartheid
1986:Islamists
1445:Nishidani
1403:Nishidani
1261:Expansion
1154:I prefer
1046:Archive 1
836:Palestine
811:Palestine
767:Palestine
727:Guy Bavli
566:See also
422:Rate the
100:Main Page
69:, or any
3884:(Please
3874:Zero0000
3798:(Please
3766:(Please
3733:(Please
3696:(Please
2893:Here is
2628:opinion.
1485:REFERSTO
1218:Reuters
1031:Archives
817:and the
612:Maintain
479:Copyedit
81:covered.
3581:i24NEWS
3573:Borrell
3564:linked-
3469:Haaretz
2954:DeCausa
2316:hafrada
1916:Zionism
1801:WP:NPOV
1704:DeCausa
1675:Abstain
1672:Against
1669:Approve
1651:Abstain
1648:Against
1645:Approve
1197:DeCausa
1174:DeCausa
1074:90 days
962:on the
863:on the
595:Infobox
440:Cleanup
383:history
356:on the
251:on the
146:B-class
102:in the
3666:Done.
2005:Done.
1988:."" ā
1912:Israel
1871:Amisom
1834:Amisom
1804:Amisom
1678:Absent
1654:Absent
1502:Done.
1243:Kaihsu
1135:Kaihsu
729:, and
697:Update
509:Expand
417:Assess
329:Israel
320:Israel
276:Israel
152:scale.
3640:|ans=
3630:This
3289:] by
3133:MSNBC
2911:lead.
2515:Oxfam
2020:Lede2
1968:|ans=
1958:This
1783:|ans=
1773:This
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1609:This
1542:|ans=
1532:This
1116:Move?
1039:Index
709:Other
680:Stubs
663:Photo
393:purge
388:watch
3990:talk
3976:talk
3952:talk
3932:talk
3911:talk
3897:Zero
3886:ping
3864:Zero
3857:The
3829:talk
3815:talk
3800:ping
3783:talk
3768:ping
3751:talk
3735:ping
3717:talk
3698:ping
3672:talk
3658:talk
3594:talk
3551:talk
3536:talk
3522:talk
3507:talk
3492:talk
3482:and
3478:and
3458:talk
3439:talk
3407:talk
3337:talk
3323:talk
3301:talk
3278:talk
3263:talk
3248:talk
3231:talk
3214:talk
3178:talk
3158:talk
3144:talk
3127:WAPO
3117:talk
3088:talk
3074:talk
3060:talk
3043:talk
3029:talk
3014:talk
2993:talk
2976:talk
2958:talk
2952:No?
2921:talk
2883:talk
2865:talk
2850:talk
2809:talk
2794:talk
2778:talk
2760:Boud
2732:talk
2712:talk
2708:Boud
2655:talk
2634:talk
2619:talk
2601:talk
2586:talk
2571:talk
2556:talk
2542:talk
2527:talk
2517:and
2509:and
2475:talk
2446:talk
2431:talk
2414:day.
2378:talk
2364:talk
2350:talk
2332:talk
2267:talk
2249:talk
2189:talk
2171:talk
2143:talk
2123:talk
2095:talk
2077:talk
2060:talk
2046:talk
2031:talk
2011:talk
1924:talk
1900:make
1889:talk
1875:talk
1861:talk
1838:talk
1824:talk
1808:talk
1749:talk
1741:Done
1724:talk
1708:talk
1693:talk
1585:talk
1563:talk
1508:talk
1493:talk
1467:talk
1449:talk
1435:talk
1431:Boud
1407:talk
1392:talk
1369:Lede
1353:talk
1339:talk
1322:talk
1308:talk
1293:talk
1271:talk
1247:talk
1230:talk
1201:talk
1178:talk
1164:talk
1139:talk
1107:talk
685:See
650:NPOV
617:See
452:and
428:and
378:edit
30:The
3638:or
2511:HRW
2304:two
1966:or
1906:or
1781:or
1617:or
1540:or
1214:BBC
954:Mid
897:Law
855:Mid
629:Map
348:Mid
243:Low
224:Law
175:Law
4007::
3992:)
3978:)
3954:)
3934:)
3913:)
3880:VR
3831:)
3817:)
3794:VR
3785:)
3762:VR
3753:)
3729:VR
3719:)
3692:VR
3674:)
3660:)
3644:no
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3553:)
3538:)
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3452:.
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55:)
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