1323:, I appreciate your restraint here in leaving the quotation instead of deleting it again, which gave me a chance to pull back and propose a compromise, thanks.) Second, "exceptional claims require exceptional sources" - hopefully by removing the exceptional claim here the sourcing problem has been reduced. Third, it's just one man's opinion. Ditto for the deleted exceptional claim portion of the quotation, hopefully the opinion is more universally shared by participants. The opinions of leading intellectuals about something like an annual conference matter. (One could argue that the content of Oprah's opinions about a political issue matter far less, influential though they may be.) The solution for having
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1351:, I don't believe that every conference Wigner attended was necessarily notable. But when 4 top figures (and there are more who are not listed) in 3 different fields attend, the likelihood of notability increases dramatically. This is not because notability is transitive. It's because a conference's ability to attract top scientists is an indicator that the conference is significant. We can agree to disagree on whether this is an indicator, however.
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1522:. That controversy should be added to the article. Media coverage of the Unification Church has focussed on characterizing members as brainwashed automatons; their poverty, hard work, and devotion to the church; church finances, etc., and those things are (appropriately) covered in the criticism section of the
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Let's write about the relationship of ICUS to the Moon controversy. Detractors of Moon said that he only created "fronts" to make himself "look" respectable despite "never" doing anything for the benefit of the public. The church regards ICUS as having provided substantial public benefit, so the Club
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promised on the article's talk page on 13 June 2008 to add other such material as soon as his Amazon order arrives. The nominator for AfD of this article either didn't read this on the article's talk page, or decided to nominate it anyway, for whatever reason. In any case the AfD is premature. I am a
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Agreeing to be chairman means taking on extra work. So a nobel laureate being chairman is of sufficient interest to mention. If you are going to fight tooth and nail to squash any statement that might be construed as positive about this conference, I am not going to take the time to struggle with you
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About one forth of hte article is taken up by people's speculation about the motivation of the church for putting on the conferences. This seems a little unbalanced to me. Besides that a good part of anything anyone does is to gain the respect and approval of other people. So is this case really so
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Here's a quote from Hayek: "Whatever may be said or believed about the religious foundation of ICUS, the scientific character of the meetings and their presentation and organization are thoroughly and admirably respectable. ICUS is attempting an almost unique job in devoting itself to clarifying the
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I have previously voiced the opinion that the inclusion of participants (even chairmen) who are nobel laureates is an indication that scientists at the very top of their fields took this conference seriously, which I think would be of interest to readers. You don't have to agree, but it doesn't seem
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There is a dispute between those who say Rev. Moon created ICUS to unify the sciences and/or to restore "values" to the perspective of science; and those who dismiss the entire project (conferences and publications) as little more than an attempt to gain good publicity. Let's remain neutral on this
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The ICUS's site lists the chairmen. If people are interested they can check that out. If you feel the article should mention two then why not list all of them? I personally don't think that's information that WP readers are so interested in, but I don't object to mentioning it. I am listing people
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Please, if you know anything about ICUS, help by writing about its purpose; about the interdisciplinary topics it addressed; about its copious proceedings (volume after volume of papers read out at conferences); prominent (but controversial?) scientists whose views got an airing at ICUSes, such as
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At the same time the
Unification Church concentrated its energies on creating and developing many organizations and foundations. Some of these, created during the last thirty years, are: the International Conference for the Unity of the Sciences (ICUS), the International Cultural Foundation (ICF),
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What the "reliable sources reported on" was that the UC was "spending millions of dollars a year on a broad range of cultural and political programs, including academic conferences, foreign trips for journalists and conservative lobbying activities, that are designed to improve the church's image
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I remain highly skeptical about the King quote -- particularly as the Google News archive hits that Phil
Bridger turned up seem to indicate that the Conferences were more notable for their controversial ties to Moon than for anything they achieved. Incidentally, if these hits are being used to
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Nobel laureates and other top scientists go to significant conferences, and do not normally participate in "vanity conferences." I (perhaps also Steve Dufour, who is more likely to find it) will look for a better source for the
Alexander King quotation. This quotation was widely published in
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The WP report gives a clear motivation for Wigner's participation -- the UC was throwing large amounts of money at him. The report doesn't mention Eccles participation at all. For evidence that this conference was 'taken seriously' I would expect it to result in some mention
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On the souces. Introvigne's book does give the information in the sentence that cites it. I have the book and have used it as a source for some of the UC related articles. I'm sorry if the footnote implied that everything was in the one chapter that has been posted online.
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about whether these participants did anything noteworthy there (or just gave a canned talk and/or slept through the proceedings). Its sole purpose appears to be to allow this article to ride on the coattails of their individual notability. Sorry, (i) notability isn't
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I would further point out that there is no evidence that these conferences resulted in anything other than the exapnding waists of its participants, a few press releases and perhaps UC-owned printeries causing a few more tress to be chopped down than would otherwise
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the conference would be "valuable" (at the time he decided to participate), not that it actually turned out to be so. (iii) The reason that I'm skeptical about attempts to introduce "any statement that might be construed as positive about this conference" is that
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If nobody had attended then there wouldn't have been a conference. The main "media attention" in the source is on money spent, with 'who attended' only subsidiary to this (i.e. the Nobel laureate who attended was the one who Moon showered with money).
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I am indifferent between deleting or merging -- however the shear bulk of (apparently non-notable), unsourced stubs on UC-created organisations/summits/conferences/etc that have failed to make any sort of splash, may make it worth while to create a
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You are right. I made a mistake. Introvigne only mentions the existence of the two organizations and that they were created by the
Unification Church. The article in the Harvard Crimson (probably also a RS) mentions that the ICF sponsored the ICUS.
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unlikely that King didn't say this. It shows that a prominent intellectual was very impressed by the conference, and goes to notability. Remember, this was the 70s, and truly international, truly interdisciplinary conferences were rare.
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I don't think the article should be deleted or merged. The conferences were plenty notable, just look them up on Google. I am in the process of doing more research now. I just have to wait for my Amazon order to arrive. :-)
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no
Exucmember, this name-dropping does not "go to notability" -- notability is not transitive ('inherited'), as even highly notable people do non-notable things, have non-notable friends and relatives, etc, etc. I'm sure
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So now you have two sources which describe ICUS in terms opposit to "nothing but an attempt to gain good publicity". So there is indeed a dispute. If you accept the authenticity of the quotes, may I include them?
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It seems to me that the only reason that the media took notice of the conferences at all was the well-known people who were involved. If Rev. Moon had only invited his church members no one would have noticed.
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If, as you seem to be saying, the topic is so unimportant that the article has to be padded with an ungrammatical quote from a 30 year old newspaper article then maybe it would be just as well to delete it.
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basic intellectual differences between the communist and capitalist worlds, and thus performs a very important task indeed. For these reasons I am grateful to have been able to contribute to its efforts."
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apparently doubt that there weren't plenty of other genuinely international, genuinely interdisciplinary conferences which provided a good setting for "a multidisciplinary attack on global problems"
958:. The secondary sources that bother with this topic at all describe it as an expensive PR exercise, so attempting to cherry-pick pieces of information to counter that viewpoint would appear to be
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and the
Professors Academy for World Peace (PWPA). These organizations have promoted international academic conferences, often featuring personalities otherwise unaffiliated with Unificationism.
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A few points: (i) We don't as yet have a RS that Eccles was the chairman. (ii) Even if this were established, and if we accepted your argument, this would only allow the inference that Eccles
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My mistake. The opening sentence was left over from the original article. I had thought that I wrote it based on
Introvigne's book, which does just mention the ICUS along with other projects.
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Actually, what the media "took notice of" was that the "Church Spend
Millions On Its Image" -- and this conference (and its attendees) was only one example of this lavish self-promotion.
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with substantial coverage in reliable third party sources. Google hits are largely meaningless for that, as it includes a vast amount of mere mentions and/or unreliable sources. The only
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I would also vote to remove the quote. It is just one person's opinion. It would be the same if Oprah
Winfrey's opinion was the only one quoted in Barack Obama's article, for instance.
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I don't object to the list being removed. I will keep looking for more sources. One problem, as I said, is the conferences took place in the 1970s and 1980s, before the
Internet.
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we should be giving proportional coverage to this viewpoint on the conferences, rather than cherry-picking details out of the source, which that source gave little emphasis to.
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one opinion in an article where opinions matter could be to add other opinions. The statement summarizes a prominent characteristic of the conferences rather well.
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These conferences attracted top scientists, including nobel laureates. I have just restored and added sourced material referencing this, which goes to notability.
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way to establish that coverage is substantial is to cite it for substantial amounts of material in the article -- which is after all one of the reasons to have
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There are also other sources out there. Eccles (Nobel laureate) was chairman. Despite the conference's shortcomings, some top scientists found it valuable. -
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reliable enough sources for you? It only takes a few seconds to do a Google News search that would have avoided the need to argue this out at AfD." -
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in these conferences (and no, simply listing the title of their presentations doesn't count -- people give presentations all the time, but this is
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It seems to me that one sentence should be enough to get that point accross. If you want to nominate the article for deletion you have my vote.
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prominent viewpoint expressed about this conference, so a couple of sentences is not unreasonable. You're welcome to nominate it for deletion.
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No, it is simply an indication that very few prominent people bother to say anything about these conferences -- so when one does, it is given
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As there is no third-party RS describing these conferences as anything other than "an attempt to gain good publicity", there is no "dispute".
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Nobel laureate have foibles just like the rest of us -- and would go to conferences great and small for a wide range of reasons. Regardless,
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is right that there are a number of Unification articles on Knowledge that should be deleted or merged, but this is not one of them. -
1949:, apart from generating a bit of PR for the church. It is about the only analysis of the conferences in the article, so should stay.
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to have said it (making more solid verification difficult, if not impossible). I would also modify Ed's request to read "if you know
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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2118:"significant coverage" that these conferences received was over the controversy due to their being perceived as promotional of UC.
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went to hundreds of conferences -- the vast majority of which were not sufficiently notable to warrant a wikipedia article. Read
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It simply says that these were two organisations created by UC, and makes no further mention of any relationship between them.
1518:. Part of the notability (at least in the popular press) of ICUS derives in part from the controversy over its sponsorship by
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Please do not delete information which contradicts your perspective on things: we contributors should all remain neutral. --
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I am trying to do that. There seems to be something happening on their site, maybe too much traffic because of graduation.
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I still think that if reliable sources reported on someone's participation this should be included in the article.
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who took part in the conferences if they have a WP article without trying to decide if they are important or not.
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Does this say that ICUS "was a series scientific conferences sponsored by the International Cultural Foundation"?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080224080317/http://libweb.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/wigner.html
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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the ICUS & UC are hardly "significant"; and a cited unencyclopaedic list is still an unencyclopaedic list.
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his statement was made. So I have removed the controversial portion of the quotation that claims this was the
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Yes, but news coverage routinely contains coverage that isn't suitable for an encyclopaedic article -- hence
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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appropriate to claim consensus on an issue where opinions seem to be divided (2 1/2 to 2, it appears). -
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I could not verify even the existence of the source provided for this quote, let alone its reliability.
1098:-alone list that they can be merged into, rather than going through and AfDing them all individually.
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on the pro-ICUS side. Can someone help me dig up the professor at MIT who has an anti-ICUS quote? --
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I will continue to delete information that is not verifiable to reliable sources, per clear policy
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Took me less than 90 seconds to find the quote online; turns out I didn't have to type it in from
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080513174704/http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/unification.htm
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I agree that it's fairly trivial. Still secondary sources (newspapers) did mention some of them.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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list of notable participants, the contents of this list says nearly nothing about the ICUS, and
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a reason to throw "indiscriminate collection of information" in, even if the information is
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But still if no one had attended the conferences they wouldn't have gotten media attention.
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scientists "found it valuable" (except perhaps as a lavishly-hosted change of scenery).
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There could be an article on "United States media coverage of the Unification Church".
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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How about putting the list back? That would solve some of the problem of unbalance.
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unless and until substantial coverage in reliable third party sources can be found.
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with the American public and promote an ideological "world war" against communism."
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conference Wigner attended was sufficiently notable to warrant its own article.
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the UC-echo-chamber (Paragon Press, the UC-owned newspapers & the like) and
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weight. The point is that we have no evidence of these conferences achieving
356:"Introvigne's book does give the information in the sentence that cites it."
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I added another RS which discusses the the ICUS so removed the tags again.
194:-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us
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quotes eulogising Moon and/or his ICUS. So no, you may not include them.
568:. Part of the editorial process is weeding such trivial material out.
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http://libweb.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/wigner.html
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Then perhaps you ought to provide a URL that actually links to it.
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Then find one & cite it. And we have to date no evidence that
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has just solved the notability issue for us; he wrote: "If the
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There seem to be 3 issues with the King quotation. First, both
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1241:. Such obvious hyperbole adds to skepticism, not notability.
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of this effort, and the participants merely incidental. Per
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http://archive.upf.org/publications/peacekingonline/7.5.htm
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I just nominated the article for deletion as non-notable.
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You did not "find the quote online" -- the link is for a
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establish the article's notablity, then this controversy
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is the recent conference? Please provide right source?
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I checked the sources and I think it would pass an AfD.
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is some more evidence of significant coverage. Are the
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http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/unification.htm
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International Conference on the Unity of the Sciences
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International Conference on the Unity of the Sciences
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I agree with you and will remove the list of names.
2364:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
2254:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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http://archive.upf.org/publications/peacekingonline
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http://archive.upf.org/publications/peacekingonline
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WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources
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over it. I have too much to do in the real world. -
265:I will work on the page and find some references.
1237:for King's ludicrously over-the-top statement --
2074:It was only 25 years old, and appears to be the
2442:Redirect-Class New religious movements articles
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188:, a project to improve Knowledge's articles on
2447:NA-importance New religious movements articles
2350:This message was posted before February 2018.
2240:This message was posted before February 2018.
1016:Notability isn't something that can merely be
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2114:I would also point out that pretty much the
1685:would appear to apply to the King quote. It
1359:isn't reliable enough for some reason then
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2320:I have just modified one external link on
2210:I have just modified one external link on
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1233:And thank you, but I'll take a cast-iron
114:does not require a rating on Knowledge's
1755:dispute, while providing details on it.
1577:of Rome guy's quote is highly relevant.
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1225:To believe otherwise is to claim that
1126:critic of the Unification Church, and
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41:Because this page is not frequently
466:The article is currently mainly an
120:It is of interest to the following
1231:Are you asserting this? Yes or no.
956:we have no RS to back this view up
243:New religious movements work group
45:, present and future discussions,
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2324:. Please take a moment to review
2214:. Please take a moment to review
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1993:It seems to me that this is the
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206:standards, or visit the
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62:Talk:Unification Church
34:that targets the page:
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57:should take place at:
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184:WikiProject Religion
2352:After February 2018
2242:After February 2018
2406:InternetArchiveBot
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267:Steve Dufour
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198:articles to
189:
182:
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122:WikiProjects
111:
89:
60:
26:This is the
1641:Fred Singer
1631:scientists
1022:established
566:WP:NOT#NEWS
325:on the ICUS
2426:Categories
2413:Report bug
2303:Report bug
2190:Dentking07
1687:should not
1679:WP:REDFLAG
1623:scientist
1528:Exucmember
1526:article. -
1377:Exucmember
1197:Exucmember
1132:Exucmember
917:Exucmember
868:Exucmember
605:Exucmember
477:transitive
468:WP:EMBEDed
2396:this tool
2389:this tool
2286:this tool
2279:this tool
1872:different
1810:dead tree
1698:purported
1416:be given
28:talk page
2402:Cheers.—
2292:Cheers.—
1853:Uncle Ed
1824:Uncle Ed
1764:Uncle Ed
1711:please.
1645:Uncle Ed
1639:skeptic
1187:Comment:
1149:Comment:
1096:WP:STAND
1018:asserted
964:WP:UNDUE
960:WP:SYNTH
512:Redddogg
462:The list
213:Religion
191:Religion
141:Religion
112:redirect
82:deletion
32:redirect
2326:my edit
2216:my edit
1897:uncited
1812:source:
1781:happen.
1702:of any
1158:WP:NOTE
1034:WP:NOTE
1026:WP:NOTE
644:outside
640:outside
472:nothing
261:Notable
43:watched
2076:latest
2044:Borock
2030:Borock
1973:Borock
1943:WP:DUE
1928:Borock
1874:quote.
1704:WP:RSs
1681:&
1418:WP:DUE
1367:, the
1313:before
1192:highly
1057:Merge:
1024:, per
996:Merge?
962:&
823:Borock
800:WP:DUE
759:Borock
667:Borock
540:Borock
485:WP:NOT
118:scale.
2126:Stalk
2122:Hrafn
2086:Stalk
2082:Hrafn
2005:Stalk
2001:Hrafn
1957:Stalk
1953:Hrafn
1910:Stalk
1906:Hrafn
1797:Stalk
1793:Hrafn
1719:Stalk
1715:Hrafn
1709:WP:OR
1694:WP:RS
1691:solid
1677:Both
1512:Hrafn
1428:Stalk
1424:Hrafn
1349:Hrafn
1321:Hrafn
1305:Hrafn
1249:Stalk
1245:Hrafn
1235:WP:RS
1227:every
1168:Stalk
1164:Hrafn
1128:Hrafn
1119:Keep:
1106:Stalk
1102:Hrafn
1067:Stalk
1063:Hrafn
1044:Stalk
1040:Hrafn
974:Stalk
970:Hrafn
951:hoped
904:Stalk
900:Hrafn
848:Stalk
844:Hrafn
810:Stalk
806:Hrafn
715:Stalk
711:Hrafn
654:Stalk
650:Hrafn
576:Stalk
572:Hrafn
499:Stalk
495:Hrafn
430:Stalk
426:Hrafn
396:Stalk
392:Hrafn
378:Stalk
374:Hrafn
339:Stalk
335:Hrafn
110:This
30:of a
2194:talk
2162:talk
2116:only
2048:talk
2034:talk
1995:only
1977:talk
1932:talk
1921:NPOV
1857:talk
1828:talk
1768:talk
1741:talk
1649:talk
1643:. --
1532:talk
1470:talk
1413:MUST
1381:talk
1371:and
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1325:only
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1307:and
1279:talk
1201:talk
1136:talk
1084:talk
1030:real
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921:talk
872:talk
827:talk
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671:talk
609:talk
544:talk
530:talk
516:talk
489:WP:V
450:talk
413:talk
315:talk
301:talk
287:talk
271:talk
202:and
200:good
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88:was
51:and
2370:RfC
2340:to
2260:RfC
2230:to
1889:one
894:any
491:).
204:1.0
59:•
36:•
2428::
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2374:{{
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2264:{{
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