Talk:Youth organizations in the United States

850:

This is on your website, and it is incorrect, and we need it to be changed. The reason we do not consider ourselves a "Secular" scouting organization is because we welcome ALL people, not just the non-religious. I don't really care WHAT that article says; just because someone posted an article about us on some 3rd-party website does not mean that they somehow know more about our program than WE do. Stating an organization is secular gives the incorrect impression that religion does not enter into it at all, and that's not the case. We actually give our Scouts the choice to use the word "God" in their Scout Promise if they so wish. It's a personal thing that we let them decide to include or not include (substituting "my conscience" for "God" or using the Outlander's Promise). Also, the BPSA in the United States formed in 2006, not 2002. We are NOT in any way connected with the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association of the UK, so there is no conflict of interest for DiverScout to edit this article about us. He is simply not a member of the BPSA US. Does that make sense? Hope so! I hope to get this resolved quickly. Again, the information on this article is incorrect and we may need to escalate this issue if it is not taken care of soon. Thank you.

969:

dictionary defines "secular" as "denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis." In either case, the intent/implication seems to suggest that "secular" means "separate from religion." Based on this, I don't think the term "secular" correctly applies to the BPSA. Our intent is to welcome all--not to imply that we have set ourselves apart from all things religious. In the BPSA, we have members who are deeply religious, including practicing Catholics, Jews, and a number of Christians, as well as at least one Pagan. And, on the other end of the scale, we have agnostic and atheist members, too. It would be more correct, although wordier, to say the BPSA is accepting of all religious beliefs and practices as well as those people who express no religious beliefs or practices. I Therefore, using the word "secular" absolutely could scare off some people who might otherwise benefit from the BPSA's program.

330:

have not figure it out, the law is (or has been) biased against all non-BSA scouting groups as it has in the UK (see the BBS&GSA). If you have not figured it out, the Scouting WP Project and yourself in adopting the BSA's MOS is move that biases the project against other scouting groups. Since they have those advantage they end up being more cover by the news thus more notable then these groups. So, WP builds in that unnotability about the lesser group whether scout or scout-like organizations which this article attempt to rectify. Heck, I guess I should have just let each and every one of the article be deleted via the AfD process instead this attempt (the article) to at least have something about them here at WP.

894:←Secular means "1.Not specifically religious." Thus since you do take members of any religion or no religion there for you are secular. Really, kopper, you just claimed that you are affiliated with Baden-Powell Scouts' Association as that is what you want in the lead. "I don't really care WHAT that article says; just because someone posted an article about us on some 3rd-party website does not mean that they somehow know more about our program than WE do." Sorry, but that are the rules on WP. DiverScout, I suggest that you take your own advice since Kopper just point out TWICE now that you WHERE WRONG. So you need to go away and stop your attacks, flaming and goading me. 1701:

owns the newspaper which makes it self-publishing also); his credentials on the subject seem scant he even admits to have never been involved in Scouting and he definitely wants to push Christian organizations (AWANA and Christian Brigade). Second and more importantly the title is not neutral in regards to the organizations covered; it judges other youth organizations in relation to Scouting which is not fair to organizations that don't see themselves as part of the Scouting movement and who share only a surface resemblance to Scouting (having a pinewood derby clone is not sufficient). --

488:

communist countries), they are all independent. I deleted "small," as that is not defined nor documented. An organization with over 1 million participants is not really small. Also, some of these may have clubs in countries other than the USA. For NPOV, an article like this should just list the Boy Scouts with the others, not indicate that there are the Boy Scouts, then everything else. All, including the "Boy Scouts" should be called "scout-like," if any are. The term scout is existed before the Boy Scouts, as for men who scouted for the army vs. Indians. (

113: 92: 123: 1404:? In addition the article almost completely ignores the most Scouting like organizations of all (BSA, GSUSA, Trail Life, American Heritage ) and points to separate wikipedia articles for them but gives a brief synopsis on AWANA which is many times bigger than Trail Life and American Heritage put together yet does not compare itself to scouting at all in their web site (it does seem to concentrate on religious study to the exclusion of most other things which doesn't strike me as notably scout-like ). -- 642:

nothing about the BPSA being "secular". That is a misleading and incorrect statement. Saying that we are "secular" implies that we are an atheist organization, which is not true. We allow religious people just as we allow nonreligious people to join. It also says that we are "a branch of the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association in the UK," which is also completely false. We are *affiliated* with them, yes, but we are not a branch. We are completely independent.

687:

non-discrimination policy for his own Cub Scout pack. In the BPSA, David was responsible for adapting the programs of the other Baden-Powell Scouting associations in introducing youth sections to the BPSA's program. In 2009, Atchley became commissioner. By 2011, the association had only a handful of units. BPSA reincorporated in 2012, became an official 501©(3) nonprofit in 2013, and has since grown to include more than 45 chartered Scout groups today.

504:

state. The BSA charter gave them a super-trademark status over Scout and Scouting and any other scouting term. They are also granted the right to copy US military uniform and insignias (although the BSA has done other wise) and were until recently granted access to military bases and land particularly for the tri-annual Jamboree. The US President is the honorary president of the BSA (although at last check Obama hasn't 'take up' the position).

924:

rewrite of the info. Also, I don't think it's asking too much to simply refer to our association in the manner in which I asked in my opening paragraph above. It really is a better description of us, and can still be sourced from the same article. And, since this is OUR association we are talking about here, this is what we want, and how we want our association portrayed on your website. Does that make sense?

61: 221: 1755:(and they didn't) as it is a youth after-school program. Which one of them is listed in this article because the have a pinewood derby clone? None. Adding the wood car racing was one of the last things I did before moving it into article space. Those races are a main activities (and includes woodworking) of "junior scouting" like Cub Scouting, so are a clue to those programs. 566:: "He eventually learned about the Baden-Powell Service Association, which formed in the United States in 2006 but had only an adult component." Furthering looking into the Texas State website was about P-B Scouting Assoc. (not P-B Service Assoc.) sale tax exempt and not its incorporation. They could be separate organizations. Even, 1sttarrantbpscouts.org's website states: 32: 358:

there? Next, the links for the additional information that you choose to ignore may be out of date - but are still valid. If you wish to create personal attacks, and post POV incorrect information under misleading article titles, please create your own web space. If you wish to contribute to an encyclopedia, I am sure that we will all enjoy working with you.

2633:: "Capitalize names of particular institutions (the founding of the University of Delhi; the history of Stanford University) but not generic words for institutions (the high school is near the university). Do not capitalize the at the start of an institution's name, regardless of the institution's preferred style." The word, scouting, is used generically here. 2023:

then note that local organizations may not reach the notability baseline for Knowledge). For a list article we should include a brief summary including whether the group even still exists, general size if it does still exist, and geographical region if not nationwide. Also what is the cutoff for 'youth'; do fraternities/sororities count?--

1108:

only operate with A.O.G. children's programs. The now-merged article had issues in relation to international scope, but the organization is clearly not US-only and is questionable in being considered Scout-like. The former issue means that this redirect is not appropriate for an encyclopedia and also should be reversed.

2165:

Apologies for reverting before checking in talk. I wouldn't say an intentional vandal but rather someone who has a particular view who hasn't managed to convince other people of his view's rightness and so get a consensus (I'm not even sure he has even explained his view , and other?]). Instead the

1670:

On a case-by-case basis we need to look at which of the listed organizations are actually "Scout-like" and what specific, categorical criteria we are applying. To me the label Scout-like should only be applied to organizations that consider themselves a direct Scouting alternative organization, with

866:

Don't worry, editors can edit in specialist subject areas - otherwise Knowledge would be even more of a joke than it already often is. Sadly there are editors who are not interested in trying to get accurate and complete information on this site, instead using it for attempts to flame, spam and goad

2373:

ERP removed them from the article's body under the guise that if they had an article (notable or not) they should not have a section here, while BSA & GS/USA were given a section when they have a clearly notable status and could just be link from the lead section like Trail Life USA and American

2062:

I've done a preliminary check of the list and removed several for being local (and fixed the cat in the original articles). I note that several of the organizations no longer exist (and a few of them in part because it turned out the CIA was a major source of funds, definitely a history there); I'm

2022:

So combo list article and regular article? There are a lot of youth groups especially if we include youth wings of more age inclusive organizations; it is one reason for concentrating on the types and the most important but clearly stating that many more exist and pointing to the category (and even

1700:

First editors are suppose to use reliable sources and any other editor can impugn the reliability of a source; discussion will then ideally lead to some sort of agreement on whether to use the source or not. Let us look at your first source: Charles Biggs in the Tulsa Beacon in an opinion piece (he

641:

One thing I found was especially interesting (read: FALSE) is how the very first 3rd-party link used on this article for our association that is the reference for "...is a secular inclusive coed traditional Scout organization..." doesn't say that at all! If you click the link to the article, it says

628:

I am the Media Director for the Baden-Powell Service Association (BPSA), and today I was made aware of the fact that some misleading information has been posted about our Scouting association on the following Knowledge article, which we are unable to edit due to the fact that it is a protected page:

536:

The WFIS Scout organization "BPSA" have been active in the USA longer than indicated in the section on this page - as I previously attempted to indicate through adding already-present data from elsewhere on Knowledge. As the 2002 Group is defunct, and their web domain is now used by some Chinese(?)

1991:

exists though that is not quite the same as youth organizations in the United States (some of which may be home based elsewhere), I don't think we should repeat all those organizations within this article but instead point to the category listing for further info (admittedly the category needs some

1746:

title and which former Girl Scouts or Girl Scout leaders see the similarities (pg. 63) after becoming Pioneer Girls/Clubs leaders. The similarities of which came from the CSB as they where the companion girls' program. So while Pioneer Clubs is a scouting organization or alternative, they would not

769:

I have provided sources above. I would like to think that our own website is a valuable source of information about our program, too. I came here today to try to get some misinformation corrected, because it's causing people looking into our program to look elsewhere, again, because the information

659:

The Baden-Powell Service Association (BPSA) is an independent and traditional-style Scouting association that takes its name from the founder of the Scouting movement, Robert Baden-Powell. The BPSA is a member organization of the World Federation of Independent Scouts (WFIS), and is affiliated with

329:

and above that is not an attempt to be POV in naming the article but short. You then claiming the opposite in say that it is POV attempt. Do you bother to read or just like making false claims and in effect attacking me! Did you bother to read the change in the lead sentence, apparently not. If you

1750:

For your second point, judgement must be made at some point, however it is the journalist, not the Wikipedian place to make that judgement in regards to the organizations covered. Some organziation have recreated scouting independent of scouting, just like the CSB and PC did. The journalist didn't

849:

Hey guys, I'm not sure who is who or what editors allowed to do what or anything, nor do I wish to get involved with some sort of obvious personal feud that you guys apparently have going on here. I simply wish to, once again, correct misinformation about our association that appears on this page.

296:

Not in the English language it is not. A Scout organization is a Scout organiszation. A Scout-like organization is one that is a bit like a Scout organization by is not one. This page is looking to me like a POV attempt to marginalize all non-Boy Scouts of America associations. The title needs

2128:

in this section. I am not seeing a discussion about this as suggested in an edit summary. I think it is crazy that this section does not mention the two largest organisations. The table of contents looks very odd with mention of only a small organisation. The fact that they are in the lede is not

1107:

Not a source that can be used for the article, but I made a direct query to the UK Royal Ranger's HQ (another international organization dropped onto this US-only page) about whether they considered themselves to have anything to do with the Scout Movement. The reply stated that they do not, and

827:

Gee, DiverScout, that is interesting that you consider it a train wreck when you added information that Kopp would consider FALSE that the current B-PSA (US) was incorporated in 2002 and all that stuff I reverse out of the article that had to do with the other B-PSA that exist in the US. WOW, now

487:

IMHO: I agree that the title of the article is misleading and violated NPOV, as it seems to indicate that first (in significance) there are the Boy Scouts, then the rest which are independent of the Boy Scouts. Except for government sponsored groups (like Hitler Youth, & communist scouts in

968:

The Oxford English Dictionary (3rd Ed) defines "secular" as "belonging to the world and its affairs as distinguished from the church and religion; civil, lay, temporal. Chiefly used as a negative term, with the meaning non-ecclesiastical, non-religious, or non-sacred." The common/tabletop Oxford

357:

A cake is a cake, it is not cake-like. You were vague and incorrect and created a misleadingly titled article. That has been amended. This is no different to you deciding to "be bold" and concentrate a large number of sourced articles onto one page. There was no consenus for that either, was

923:

Yes, I agree, technically we are NOT "affiliated" with BPSA UK, we are an independent organization affiliated only with WFIS. Can we at least get the rest of this fixed? Like our highest badges and other info? I had no "problem" with the age groupings. I merely included all that with the entire

503:

EnochBethany, the BSA and the Girls Scouts of the USA (although I found out that the local councils are incorporated) are both Congressional Chartered organizations. Such charters are rare and most non-profits and alternative groups incorporate through the standard incorporation procedures of a

2262:: "I was a non-Catholic boy scout and I do know that Catholic boys had an influence on me. Trust me. I understand. However, if we are going to avoid the mistakes of the BSA, we are going to have to make a stand on this. We must be on the same page when it comes to moral issues. Which leads to…" 1502:

The article does not have BSAS, GSUSA, Trail Life, AHG and Camp Fire because they are notable enough to get their own article, Erp. It seemed to redundant for them to have their own section. They are also linked from the Scouting Navbox, which would be mostly likely removed when rename to just

1241:

Describe the current situation with a brief description of the big groups such as 4-H, BSA, GSUSA, Campfire with links to their main articles. Describe specifically religious youth ministries/youth groups. Create separate articles for the big ones if they don't already exist. For small ones

637:

There are several problems with the information contained in that article about our association that needs to be corrected. The most important of which is the statement that we are a "secular" scouting organization. This is not the way that the BPSA wishes to present itself, and is indeed very

1014:. It is possible to edit articles where you are involved. The key is to be transparent about who you are and who you are associated with and to pledge to advance the aims of Knowledge over outside interests. You can do this by clearly stating your background on your userpage as I have done at 1715:

Once again, there is no such reliable category as "Scout-like". You have now been repeatedly told this by many editors, and reasoning given - please read it. Your Scouts POV article needs to be Wikified - and will be. If you want to create a Scout POV list, I'd suggest creating a page on

1622:

This has not done one iota of good for the article and as I pointed out on CSB's talk page doesn't address the bi- or multinational issue. You have just made it into a "work for work sake" in duplicating the categories just by posting a bunch of wikilinks and miscategorized several scouting

1021:

As an admin, lead coordinator for the Scouting project and as an interested editor, it is my goal to make all articles within our purview both brilliant and reliably sourced. I really do not like taking preemptive or punitive actions, but I will do as needed to advance Knowledge as a whole.

818:

Not sure what your problem, Jeff, is with the age groupings. Also, Knowledge articles are for subject that have are considered notable enough. The whole point of this group article. Previous to the creation of this article, the Baden-Powell Service Association got a single paragraph in the

673:

The BPSA offers a traditional ("back to basics") Scouting program for youth and adults, girls and boys, men and women, with open and inclusive membership policies that disallow any and all discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion (or no religion) or other

576:

So it is clear that there were other B-PS groups out there per your own source. So Tarrant's B-PSA may not be related to the current B-PSA except in name only. Secondly, reliable news outlets like the Monterey Herald trump primary sources as articles are not supposed to depend on primary

1765: 686:

The Baden-Powell Service Association formed with an adult-only component, Rovers, in 2006. David Atchley, a former Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts of America, joined up in 2008, after being asked to leave his local Greater St. Louis Area council of the BSA after he attempted to create a

42: 2213:

It is a blog at a seemly religious news service as opposed to a multiple person blog that the Wisky Catholice site states it is ("Whiskey Catholic is the product of three friends’ long-held passion for the only three objects worth pursuing: Catholicism, culture, and whiskey." Per

1897:

It is an interesting one. I am a WFIS Scouter. I do not consider myself "Independent" due to not being in WOSM. However that seems to be an accepted use of the phrase. the smaller independent groups, of course, would not be able to be listed as they would fail notability!

2627:

states: "In addition to standard style guides, formal style guides of the Scouting organization that is the subject of the article will be used." In no way shape or form does that mean that scouting is capitalized. But give the article covers multiple scouting organizations

1809:

Erp, first no consensus has been reached about renaming to "Youth organizations in the US". If you claim to dislike that discussion had not been held for redirects to this article then you should not have disregard that no consensus had been met in moving this article.

1794:

So continues your history of abusing editing. There is little point in discussing anything further with you, and I will not bother. I will work with more aware editors and simply remove your POV when required. You have had your chance to show any ability to reason.

1053:, etc. are blanked and redirected here. In particular I note those two articles describe international organizations while this article is US specific. Also Royal Rangers with 125,000 members and Pathfinders with 2 million (worldwide) are considerably bigger than 1365:

I would say organizations with significant numbers of non-American members outside the US (note the BSA and GSUSA have a moderate number of troops outside the US for American children living abroad). I won't do anything until a week or so to allow time for comment.

2150:

The originator of the edit war is a vandal who ought to be blocked. They lie and damage entries - wanting to turn this back into the farce that they created originally. We can wait to discuss it - but they will never do so, and will never abide by majority views.

2037:

I was strict on the "national" aspect for the UK article. Anything regional was not included, which helps remove a lot of the fraternities/sororities and the like. Not saying that that is the only way, or even the right way, but it seemed a good way to start.

1734:

in setting up the criteria. I never claim any editor could not challenge the reliability of the source. DiverScout presents NO source but is pushin for the Scouting Wikiproject to do original research to establishing classifications of being "Scout-like" in this

1399:

However that is a very scouting-centric perspective. Several at least would draw their closest similarity from the Boys Brigade which predates Scouting by several decades and is also provided some elements of modern Scouting. Perhaps we should call the article

2285:

O, that Patheos has quotes directly from Marshall's “mini-manifesto”: "3. The Scouts of Saint George will be like the Boy Scouts of America with hiking, fishing, camping, merit badges, and a highest rank (equivalent somehow to Eagle Scout). Same format and

2443: 1878:

would mean a scouting or other association that is not affiliated with an international association. But by that standard the Baden-Powell Service Association (BPSA, affiliated with WFIS) should not be included on this page. The other alternative is that

1747:

acknowledge that they are because they would not realize that the program was recreated in the CSB then hand down to the Pioneer Clubs (PC). So, he was involved in scouting and does not "admits to have never been involved in Scouting", it is you doing so.

571:"The task of the corporation’s board of directors is to work toward bringing existing Baden-Powell groups from across the US together under a unified program, and to offer new groups an attractive alternative to the only other existing American program. 1242:

affiliated with a particular denomination, create a section in the denomination's article (among other reasons more likely to gain the attention of knowledgeable editors). Describe also groups that exist more as inschool clubs which would include

2007:

The latter part is a very good idea, but I do not agree that the list should be incomplete. The aim should be for it to be complete, certainly matching the entries on the category. Anything less would be potentially misleading to readers.

333:

So back to the Scout org. and Scout-like organization issue. Don't you know that English is one of the most imprecise language in the world. Scouting organizations can be considered a subset of scouting-like organizations is what I pointed

2677:

for guidance on capitalization. Do not capitalize event names unless the reference is to a specific event. Examples: "pinewood derby" and "national Scout jamboree"; but "Valley District Pinewood Derby" and "2010 National Scout Jamboree."

2221:

It does not say that personal blogs are never allowed. It says "largely not acceptable." It's hard to see how an interview with the founder of an organization isn't acceptable -- Dr. Marshall would be a "recognized expert" on the subject.

2668:

and Scouting-related award names, progression levels, age sections, other language equivalents (i.e. Second Class, Varsity Scout, Eagle Scout, Bronze Wolf) are used in articles in the context of the Scouting Movement, they are considered

2188:

A change I made to the Troops of St. George section was rolled back and the above reason was given. First, if blogging is not an acceptable source, then another of the references in that section isn't valid either (namely this one -

1550:

Because of notability, Trail Life, AHG, and Camp Fire are notable enough for their own article. Number of members isn't a measure of notability so AWANA belongs here. Why are you repeating my reasoning, Erp? Those are the WP rules.

337:

Sorry, but the move was unwarranted as a consensus was not reached. Now, I have my watch list filled with robot edits for the "Robot: Fixing double redirect to Independent Scout and Scout-like organizations in the United States".

1534:

AWANA is bigger (even if you just count the US part of its membership) than Trail Life, AHG, and Camp Fire and has its own article so why is it here? By your reasoning none of the groups with their own articles should be here.

375:

Yes, a cake is cake-like, else it sure isn't a cake. Some thing in a subset is still apart of its larger set. No it isn't a misleading title and you have failed to get a consensus to do so. There is consensus as there has been

1061:

the first with 20,000 and the second just started that are also more explicitly Scout organizations, are US specific, and no attempt has been made to fold them in. Someone else has reverted the first two organizations and

580:

Sadly, an editor wants to belittle other editor to seize ownership of the article and that I got the page locked, because an editor will not summit verifiable information, wait for consensus and file improper 3RR reports.

2444:

http://web.archive.org/web/20150721085359/http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15682:local-caravan-girls-earn-top-honors-in-christian-scouting&catid=51:religion&Itemid=273

159:

organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the

1426:

type organization. Writing an article including non-Scout associations from the POV of Scouting is not appropriate. The proposed rename removes all POV and will allow this list to include all US youth organizations.

1992:

cleaning up). What this article should do is summarize the significant youth organizations, explain the types of youth organizations, and give some general history (when did youth organizations start in the US?). --

324:, but I am using it the broadest term (scout-like, brake away organization, alternative scouting, etc.). Most US scouting organization cannot state that they are scouting organization given the BSA's trademark of it. 823:

the Scouting WikiProject had for your organization. As you might know, the more we use from the organization's website makes the article considered less credible and more puff piece. The additional sources might be

2447: 2129:

relevant, but if people thing it matters I would prefer to remove them from the lede and not mention any specific organizations there. I am not going to revert the last edit, but let us discuss it further here. --

1380:

These organizations have been ID as scouting or scouting alternatives in the sources, there shouldn't be any argument over that they are scouting or scouting alternatives. So, I recommend that the article name be

1775:

The core sources: AP ("alternative to the Boy Scouts"), NBC News ("'scouting' group", "competitors") and Religion News ("Evangelical alternatives to the Boy Scouts", "Church-based scouting alternatives" ) and

2197:

in which he described the Troops as a "fraternal organization" (rather than "alternative scouting organization" as its currently described on this page). It's hard to see how that isn't an acceptable source.

808:

Jeff Kopp, I take the little birdy to be DiverScout, a BPSA (UK) associated editor that shouldn't be editing the BPSA's section under a conflict of interest as you have rightfully recognized that you have.

383:

It is you that have created personal attacks and since you indicate at your user page that "you create your own reality", there is no sense in talking to some one that indicates that they are delusional.

1824:

A discussion took place, on here, and a decision was made. A user has then, a long time later, correctly been bold and made the change. Finally that article that you created has become encyclopedic.

1025:

So, take a deep breath, back off for a day or two and come back with your heads in the right place. There is no hurry to get this done right now, so lets reflect and do it correctly and civilly. --

703:

Within each BPSA Scouting Group, Scouts are organized in groups called “sections” according to their age: Otters (ages 5 to 7), Timberwolves (8 to 10,) Pathfinders (11 to 17), and Rovers (18+)

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provided is not correct, nor was it even accurately translated from the source articles! Can you please make the changes for us? Also, here is another relatively new article posted about us:

678: 2098: 1738:

Now in the matter of the Tulsa Beacon article, Biggs indicated that he was involved in Christian Service Brigade (CSB) in the first line, which is identified as a scouting alternative by [

2067:

seems to have some of the longest roots going back to 1865; we do need some good scholarly references on the history of youth organizations in the United States. We should also look at

1988: 1647: 1604: 428:

You are on notice after clicking the edit link that the added information is verifiable which it was not. As they link to nothing. So your information was removed as unverifiable.

2448:

http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15682:local-caravan-girls-earn-top-honors-in-christian-scouting&catid=51:religion&Itemid=273

1742:. Secondly, Awana is indicated as a competitor to Pioneer Girls, the original companion program to the CSB, which is indentified as "American Evangelicalism's Girl Scouts" in the 2289:"6. The Scouts of Saint George won’t reinvent the wheel. Traditional scouting works. Why change it? We’re just going to preserve the tradition and import a Catholic identity." 2673:

and are always capitalized. Example: "a group of 50 Scouts", not "a group of 50 scouts". For usage in other contexts not related to the Scouting Movement, refer to the

1503:"youth". There is no POV here, it was how it was reported with over lap by four main sources, they are until you can find a source other wise "Scouting alternatives". 152: 2166:

consensus (other than him) sees things very differently, but, he is not willing to accept that and perhaps channel his energy where the consensus and he do agree. --

751:

Ideally, if we can get sources, we can start to break up this train-wreck of an article created by someone with little (if any) comprehension/knowledge of the topic.

815:

under which the BPSA is listed. Since there are no restriction on the BPSA membership including that the leader is atheist then how can it not be a secular program?

311:

Yes, in the English language it is or at least can be. Some how a Scout organization is not like another Scout organization? As the create of the article that just

1331:

Yes, the rationale above is convincing, but make sure that there are no redirects to there from what were articles on organisations with members outside the US. --

2565: 2561: 2547: 400:

Also, please note the three edit rule. Once again you choose to ignore it, I see. I will be reporting and pushing for another edit block against you, I guess.

2494:

http://web.archive.org/web/20140301162328/http://www1.usw.salvationarmy.org/usw/www_usw_alaska2.nsf/vw-sublinks/0F2AFF14862DC42F882577380001AA3A?openDocument

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Because things have changed since Dr. Marshall wrote that "manifesto" and he no longer claims that the Troops of St. George is a scouting organization. Cf.

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others. The result is that train-wreck pages full of nonsense appear. Luckily, eventually, these people go away. Seen it before, and will see it again.

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organisation, I was going to amend the link to a standard archive of the page. Sadly another editor appears unwilling to release "ownership" of the page.

2190: 1777: 1142:) and the rest speaks of "Scout-like" or "scout-type". Even the British branche states on their website "Royal Rangers is a 'Scouting' type organisation" 679:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/new-scouting-group-brings-more-inclusive-philosophy-to-st-louis/article_005e6aff-7326-5b25-a56c-92dce7fca425.html

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amending or the actual Scout associations need removing from it. The same for the defunct page where actual organizations are being labelled as "like".

2503: 2256:: "Are you affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America? No we are not. The Troops of Saint George is a Catholic outdoors movement for fathers and sons." 2707: 2497: 1473: 199: 189: 2513: 1418:

Yes, removal of the whole "Scout-like" nonsense is pretty essential here. As stated above, and also stated in the past, Scouting is, if anything, a

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BPSA's highest award for youths (Pathfinders) is the George Washington Scout Award. The highest award for adults (Rovers) is the Baden-Powell Award.

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ScoutWiki, which is intended to be Scout POV or creating your own page where you can post what you like and not have other editors make changes.

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policy. Most involved are Scouts, and I want to remind everyone that a "Scout is friendly." Please interact in a respectful and civil manner.

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After a diligent web search, I see no current incarnations of Earth Champs outside the Tampa Bay area. This appears to be a local program.

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an article previously redirected to this article which was subsequently reversed has now been put up for a formal discussion on deletion

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means not affiliated with WOSM or WAGGGS, but if that is the case then there are other associations that could be included on this page.

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Also, if you go to any thing else the founder writes about the group it is clear that it is an alternative scouting organization. :*

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misleading. There are other factual errors as well, and I have corrected them all and have provided supporting links where needed.

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the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association of England and works closely with the Baden-Powell Service Association of British Columbia.

237: 777: 2218:, newsblogs are allowed while personal blogs are not as they are self published and there for not consider reliable sources. 1739: 1011: 633:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Independent_Scout_and_Scout-like_organizations_in_the_United_States#Baden-Powell_Service_Association

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http://web.archive.org/web/20140313033558/http://www.cityoffulton.us/fulton-news/calvinettes-gems-celebrate-50-years.html

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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2013/05/and-now-it-begins-catholic-groups-rise-up-to-replace-the-boy-scouts/

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http://web.archive.org/web/20140212095643/http://www.wmu.com:80/index.php?q=students/challengers/welcome-challengers

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http://www1.usw.salvationarmy.org/usw/www_usw_alaska2.nsf/vw-sublinks/0F2AFF14862DC42F882577380001AA3A?openDocument

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http://web.archive.org/web/20130902042512/http://www.wmu.com:80/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras

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It is not up to any one on WP to create criteria for the organizations. WP editors are suppose to use the source.

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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that would be a complete train wreck. Secondly, you need to knock off the non-scout & WP attitude, ie. the

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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/18/9-faith-based-and-secular-alternatives-to-the-boy-scouts-of-america/

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I chose the "scout-like organization in the US" to keep the article title short and use the terminology in the

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/09/todd-schweikert-brooklyn-scout-troop-girls-gay-members_n_2441354.html

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Heritage Girls. To which they jump all over me. I have added SpiralScouts and other that have been removed.

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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wiccans-earth-lovers-do-gooders-theres-scouting-group-your-kid-v19680825

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Note the consensus rule, you choose to ignore. And no I have not ignored the 3RR rule as you cannot count.

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Include a history section describing when did youth organizations start in the US and what happened after.

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Well, Royal Rangers has a different approach to this. Most Central European RRs think they are Scouts (eg

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The person responding to you probably thought you meant the Scout Association, not the Scout Movement. --

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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Other than the website and a few pages stating the organization exists, I see no evidence of activities.

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Other than the website and a few pages stating the organization exists, I see no evidence of activities.

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Patheos] (replacements) all call them either "Scouting groups", "scouting alternative" or replacements.

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http://web.archive.org/web/20140201182815/http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/072013NBCNews_AHGoption.pdf

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By the way, Patheos isn't a "newsblog" by that definition since Patheos isn't a news organization.

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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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I do see a couple of typos like "a" instead of "as", Jeff, that might straight some stuff out.

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http://web.archive.org/web/20130217165429/http://www.calvinistcadets.org:80/indclubcouncil.php

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I agree with Erp and DiverScout. Let us stick with the proposal at the top of this section. --

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exists, any article should match naming, and members of that category should be included. --

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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/boy-scouts-gay-policies-benefit-alternative-groups.html

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differentiating factors. The association's motto is "Traditional Scouting for Everyone!"

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Data relating to the earlier version of the B-PSA in the United States, who operated as

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Can someone please update this section for us as soon as possible? Please let me know.

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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http://web.archive.org/web/20160129071007/http://www.kofc.org/un/en/squires/index.html

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to the redirects to the article just additional questions like Scout/Scout-like issue.

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I note a discussion and on the whole disagreement with the scheme is taking place on

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http://www.brooklyneagle.com/articles/park-slope-scout-troop-welcomes-boys-girls-gays

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http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-tell/brian-parentingcom/boy-scouts-gay-rights

2457: 2193:- which is currently a dead link anyway). But the reference I gave was an interview 1235:. This avoids arguments about what is or is not a Scout or Scout-like organization. 2648:

I've restored that section, which is meant for pedantic users just like you. "When

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on the Knowledge. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations,

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Earth Champs is a program of the Sustainable Business Coalition of Tampa Bay, Inc.

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http://www.cityoffulton.us/fulton-news/calvinettes-gems-celebrate-50-years.html

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since many of the youth organizations' local chapters are such clubs (and the

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Probably more that there is an international scouting organization called the

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http://www.vp-mi.com/feature/article_998dcd52-9f25-11e3-98e1-001a4bcf887a.html

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Also, would it be possible for us to have our own separate Knowledge article?

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There should be discussion before redirects before certain articles such as

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As this page includes at least one de facto Scout association, a re-name to

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Thank you, Jeff Kopp, Media Director, Baden-Powell Service Association US:

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Scouting and scouting alternative organizations based in the United States

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For the umpteeth time, DiverScout, I didn't make up the term, It was in

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http://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/26471/boys_scouts_alternative_081012

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Talk:Independent Scout and Scout-like organizations in the United States

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http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=students/challengers/welcome-challengers

1197:, so they probably assumed Scout Movement was short for the full name. 2253: 2063:

not sure how we want to handle no longer existing organizations. BTW

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I see no evidence that the program engages in any Scouting activities.

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I see no evidence that the program engages in any Scouting activities.

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See below that those source don't indicate what you think they state.

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http://www.wmu.com/index.php?q=children/royal-ambassadors/welcome-ras

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The discussions on this page are crossing the line and violating the

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A shame on you. Since, you just want to assume what ever you want.

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Independent Scout and Scout-like organizations in the United States

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Brigade and brigade alternative organizations in the United States

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Brigade and brigade alternative organizations in the United States

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in find additional sources has been move out its own article.

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Yes, it does say that as the has a header in the article with

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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http://www.ahgonline.org/uploads/072013NBCNews_AHGoption.pdf

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In accordance with the subarticle idea behind this article,

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the others (the majority) labelled as youth organizations.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Agreed, that solves the final concerns with this article.

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6 Reasons Why the Troops of St George is Not for Everyone

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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/Christian Service Brigade

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Category:Youth_organizations_based_in_the_United_States

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Category:Youth organizations based in the United States

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Category:Youth organizations based in the United States

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is requested. The current one is a little misleading.

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and to reword so as to not be so scouting centric. --

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I'm reviving my suggestion to rename this article to

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bit late, Jergens decided to put it up for deletion.

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are in the lead but not the body for some reason. --

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Unilateral blanking and redirects without discussion

2560:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 282:A Scout organization is a Scout-like organization. 2090:request for deletion for Christian Service Brigade 2458:http://www.calvinistcadets.org/indclubcouncil.php 1874:That's an excellent question. I would think that 656:Here's how we would like that section to appear: 792:(I can probably find a few more if you insist.) 1666:Youth organizations or Scout-like organizations 595:Clearly you are incapable of reason. A shame. 2546:This message was posted before February 2018. 562:Still contrary to the sources in the article. 8: 2488:http://www.kofc.org/un/en/squires/index.html 1074:also on grounds of being international. -- 2292:So how isn't that a scouting organization? 219: 86: 58: 2426:I have just modified 8 external links on 1770:you used in your renaming of this article 1474:Youth organisations in the United Kingdom 2428:Youth organizations in the United States 2120:I note an edit war about mention of the 1643:Youth organizations in the United States 1568:Youth organizations in the United States 1310:Youth organizations in the United States 1233:Youth organizations in the United States 1195:World Organization of the Scout Movement 233:Youth organizations in the United States 226:Text and/or other creative content from 135:Youth organizations in the United States 717:http://bpsa-us.org/program/pathfinders/ 88: 322:Template:Scouting in the United States 244:on 12 October 2015. The former page's 2535:to let others know (documentation at 1730:First, Erp, DiverScout is suggesting 378:no objections and only one objections 41:on 1 April 2014 (UTC). The result of 7: 1772:. You have been told this repeatly. 1507:could be an acceptable compromise. 1091:Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Scouting 1047:Pathfinders (Seventh-day Adventist) 711:http://www.troop97.net/wrldsct6.htm 77:It is of interest to the following 2342:, but don't see them listed here. 2312:The Troops of St. George are Back! 721:http://bpsa-us.org/program/rovers/ 25: 2631:Proper names versus generic terms 2430:. Please take a moment to review 1753:Boys & Girls Clubs of America 2708:Low-importance Scouting articles 2398:Baden-Powell Service Association 2392:Baden-Powell Service Association 1308:So should we rename the article 1248:Fellowship of Christian Athletes 821:Baden-Powell Scouts' Association 238:Baden-Powell Service Association 121: 111: 90: 59: 30: 1983:Category, article, list article 1923:The previous URL now redirects. 1766:WP Scouting Wikiproject already 1422:-like organisation, or maybe a 1010:There has been some mention of 669:http://www.troop97.net/wfis.htm 194:This article has been rated as 37:This article was nominated for 2338:I came across SpiralScouts at 1268:Really good idea. Go for it. 542:Baden-Powell Scout Association 174:Knowledge:WikiProject Scouting 1: 2111:16:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC) 2085:02:35, 29 December 2014 (UTC) 2058:Other section and where to go 2048:17:55, 28 December 2014 (UTC) 2033:17:01, 28 December 2014 (UTC) 2018:09:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC) 2002:23:43, 27 December 2014 (UTC) 1978:13:38, 25 December 2014 (UTC) 1950:13:32, 25 December 2014 (UTC) 1908:22:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC) 1893:16:19, 27 November 2014 (UTC) 1869:17:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC) 1834:22:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC) 1820:20:41, 27 December 2014 (UTC) 1618:11:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC) 1595:09:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC) 1580:07:06, 25 December 2014 (UTC) 653:and Email: media@bpsa-us.org 292:16:12, 28 February 2014 (UTC) 277:07:09, 28 February 2014 (UTC) 177:Template:WikiProject Scouting 2703:Stub-Class Scouting articles 2688:02:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC) 2643:18:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC) 2414:16:41, 16 October 2015 (UTC) 2340:http://www.spiralscouts.org/ 2176:21:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC) 2161:21:10, 7 February 2015 (UTC) 2145:20:55, 7 February 2015 (UTC) 1650:is pretty well populated. -- 1633:01:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC) 1312:to avoid the unclearness of 1159:They don't make it easy! :) 2184:blogging not accept source? 1759: 1585:Be bold - make the change. 707:http://bpsa-us.org/program/ 2724: 2619:Capitalization of scouting 2577:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2423:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 2384:16:02, 27 April 2015 (UTC) 2369:21:05, 25 April 2015 (UTC) 2358:SpiralScouts International 2352:20:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC) 2208:14:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC) 1805:20:07, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1790:19:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1726:07:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1711:06:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1696:22:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC) 1681:09:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC) 1661:12:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC) 1561:18:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1545:06:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 1517:22:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC) 1485:13:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC) 1457:11:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC) 1437:09:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC) 1414:02:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC) 1395:21:43, 11 April 2014 (UTC) 1189:20:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1169:19:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1155:16:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1118:10:03, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1103:05:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1084:04:56, 20 March 2014 (UTC) 1064:SpiralScouts International 498:14:44, 24 March 2014 (UTC) 466:) 19:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC 200:project's importance scale 2614:07:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC) 2324:13:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC) 2302:17:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC) 2279:17:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC) 2246:13:08, 4 April 2015 (UTC) 2232:13:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC) 2095:Christian Service Brigade 1376:23:47, 9 April 2014 (UTC) 1361:07:54, 9 April 2014 (UTC) 1347:06:07, 9 April 2014 (UTC) 1326:02:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC) 1296:19:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC) 1278:17:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC) 1263:02:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC) 1207:18:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC) 1036:02:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC) 979:22:15, 5 March 2014 (UTC) 934:20:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC) 904:15:15, 4 March 2014 (UTC) 877:07:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC) 860:04:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC) 845:02:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC) 830:bullying/personal attacks 802:23:08, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 761:22:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 746:22:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 732:22:38, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 619:19:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC) 605:19:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC) 591:19:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC) 557:15:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC) 514:16:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC) 454:12:26, 2 March 2014 (UTC) 438:18:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 424:18:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 410:17:34, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 394:18:47, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 368:17:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 348:17:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 307:08:32, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 236:was copied or moved into 193: 106: 85: 1987:Given that the category 1858:mean in this context? -- 1744:Ashury Journal's article 1253:What do people think? -- 2419:External links modified 2101:and a redirect here. -- 1751:just drop in the large 1231:Rename this article as 1055:American Heritage Girls 2126:Girl Scouts of the USA 2116:Scouting organizations 2075:article is a mess). -- 573: 326: 313:previously pointed out 67:This article is rated 2308:About Taylor Marshall 2122:Boy Scouts of America 1244:Gay-straight alliance 1072:Calvinist Cadet Corps 569: 318: 2558:regular verification 1016:User:Gadget850/about 1012:conflict of interest 140:Scouting WikiProject 2548:After February 2018 2527:parameter below to 2400:with assistance of 1227:Thoughts I've had 250:provide attribution 2602:InternetArchiveBot 2553:InternetArchiveBot 813:"SECULAR PROGRAMS" 651:http://bpsa-us.org 443:Knowledge:Link rot 73:content assessment 2578: 2402:User:SixFourThree 1732:original research 1472:For comparison - 1424:Woodcraft Indians 1066:. 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10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 2720: 2709: 2706: 2704: 2701: 2700: 2698: 2689: 2685: 2681: 2676: 2672: 2667: 2663: 2659: 2655: 2651: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2640: 2636: 2632: 2626: 2618: 2616: 2615: 2610: 2605: 2604: 2593: 2589: 2586: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2573: 2567: 2563: 2559: 2555: 2549: 2544: 2540: 2534: 2530: 2526: 2519: 2515: 2511: 2509: 2505: 2501: 2499: 2495: 2491: 2489: 2485: 2481: 2479: 2475: 2471: 2469: 2465: 2461: 2459: 2455: 2451: 2449: 2445: 2441: 2440: 2439: 2437: 2433: 2429: 2424: 2418: 2416: 2415: 2411: 2407: 2403: 2399: 2391: 2385: 2381: 2377: 2372: 2371: 2370: 2366: 2365: 2359: 2356: 2355: 2354: 2353: 2349: 2345: 2344:71.175.167.93 2341: 2333: 2325: 2321: 2317: 2313: 2309: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2299: 2295: 2291: 2288: 2284: 2280: 2276: 2272: 2268: 2267: 2266: 2265: 2261: 2258: 2257: 2255: 2251: 2247: 2243: 2239: 2235: 2233: 2229: 2225: 2220: 2219: 2217: 2212: 2211: 2210: 2209: 2205: 2201: 2196: 2192: 2183: 2177: 2173: 2169: 2164: 2163: 2162: 2158: 2154: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2143: 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431: 427: 425: 421: 417: 413: 412: 411: 407: 403: 399: 395: 391: 387: 382: 379: 374: 373: 372: 371: 370: 369: 365: 361: 349: 345: 341: 336: 332: 328: 325: 323: 317: 314: 310: 309: 308: 304: 300: 295: 294: 293: 289: 285: 281: 280: 279: 278: 274: 270: 266: 258: 251: 247: 243: 239: 234: 229: 225: 218: 217: 201: 197: 191: 188: 187: 184: 167: 163: 158: 154: 150: 146: 142: 141: 136: 130: 124: 119: 117: 114: 110: 109: 105: 99: 96: 93: 89: 84: 80: 74: 66: 62: 57: 56: 48: 44: 40: 36: 33: 29: 28: 19: 2671:proper nouns 2665: 2661: 2657: 2653: 2649: 2625:scouting MOS 2622: 2600: 2597: 2572:source check 2551: 2545: 2532: 2528: 2524: 2522: 2425: 2422: 2395: 2362: 2337: 2194: 2187: 2140:(Discussion) 2139: 2132: 2119: 2093: 2061: 1986: 1970: 1969: 1966: 1942: 1941: 1938: 1919: 1916:Earth Champs 1880: 1875: 1861: 1860: 1855: 1853: 1669: 1653: 1652: 1646: 1610: 1609: 1567: 1565: 1533: 1504: 1471: 1452:(Discussion) 1451: 1444: 1420:Boys Brigade 1401: 1382: 1342:(Discussion) 1341: 1334: 1313: 1309: 1307: 1283: 1252: 1232: 1226: 1184:(Discussion) 1183: 1176: 1044: 1028: 1027: 1024: 1020: 1009: 1002: 893: 735: 714: 705: 702: 699: 689: 685: 682: 676: 672: 662: 658: 655: 648: 644: 640: 636: 631: 627: 570: 541: 539: 535: 490:EnochBethany 356: 319: 264: 262: 228:this version 195: 162:project page 138: 134: 79:WikiProjects 46: 2539:Sourcecheck 2286:structure." 2065:Girls, Inc. 1881:Independent 1876:Independent 1856:independent 1850:Independent 1140:Netherlands 2697:Categories 2662:Girl Scout 2609:Report bug 2153:DiverScout 2040:DiverScout 2010:DiverScout 1900:DiverScout 1854:What does 1826:DiverScout 1797:DiverScout 1718:DiverScout 1673:DiverScout 1603:Seeing as 1587:DiverScout 1477:DiverScout 1429:DiverScout 1353:DiverScout 1314:Scout-like 1270:DiverScout 1161:DiverScout 1110:DiverScout 869:DiverScout 753:DiverScout 597:DiverScout 549:DiverScout 446:DiverScout 402:DiverScout 360:DiverScout 299:DiverScout 269:DiverScout 166:discussion 69:Stub-class 2658:Boy Scout 2592:this tool 2585:this tool 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