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I did my job to save it because I knew Ceqli was notable enough to deserve being in
Knowledge (XXG). As for Ithkuil . . . now that a second article was written by an entirely different person, there will probably be fewer delete votes this time because people will realize that multiple people are interested in doing articles on this conlang. Those conlangs you see that get 1 Google hit and were created last week don't get two different people starting articles on them on Knowledge (XXG), and if they get one person creating an article it will be the author (neither the first nor second creator of the
479:; all of them are writing in Russian or some other language written with the Cyrillic alphabet. The Zompist BB thread I cited in my last edit to the article also says there was an article about Ithkuil in a Russian-language magazine and that Quijaida has been contacted by several people saying that they are interested in learning it. We should say something about this in the article, but I think we need to track down the specific article reference to say it coherently. --
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recent years. These articles are not just casual blog posts. Admittedly they're self-published on a website, but from around 1998 to 2007, and again since then, there were no print magazines dealing with conlangs as far as I know; for the last ten or twenty years *almost all* critical writing on conlangs, the most deep and thoughtful stuff as well as more casual writing, has appeared either in web fora or mailing lists or self-published websites. --
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never create naturally, but rather only by conscious intellectual effort: an idealized language whose aim is the highest possible degree of logic, efficiency, detail, and accuracy in cognitive expression via spoken human language, while minimizing the ambiguity, vagueness, illogic, redundancy, polysemy (multiple meanings) and overall arbitrariness that is seemingly ubiquitous in natural human language."
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before cliking the link to this article and might never had heard of it if it was forced into a paragraph in some more general article. In fact I wish there was more information on this page. Subjects, that are clearly seperate topics, should not be edited out of existence or hidden deeply within obscure articles. Surely the limited amount of memory it requires does not justify such censorship.
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state of the language? I don't think the article is doing anyone any good as an incoherent mish-mash of information about the old obsolete version of the language and the new definitive version. I would be most appreciative... (p.s. I'd do it myself, but I don't believe in authoring a
Knowledge (XXG) page on one's own work). -- John Q.
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this not come near, if not actually into, the category that blogs, forums and so on come into as concerns notability? Peterson himself "has attempted to create a phonetic transcription system for signing that is ASCII-friendly known as the Sign
Language International Phonetic Alphabet (SLIPA)." Quoted from
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I would recommend reviewing the FAQ section of the
Ithkuil website, where I address this "five times faster" question once and for all. And while I'm here, can someone with the time and interest please, please, pretty please, do a wholesale revision /update of this article so it reflects the current
1040:
The Smiley Award is awarded by one person on a set of criteria that includes "The winner will be a language that, for one reason or another, makes me smile.". This seems to me to be an award that doesn't confer any particular significance other than that David J. Peterson has decided to give it. Does
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How can a language be dead if it had never been "born"? As you know no one speak it naturally, so there for it cannot die. When you are already at the bottom of the barrel the only way to go is up. As the popularity of it increase and more and more people learn of it, it will not die, it will only
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While I enjoy the idea of inventing fictional languages which mimic natural languages, it is not enough for me to add simply another language to the thousands that already exist or have existed. For me, the greater goal is to attempt the creation of what human beings, left to their own devices, would
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Since the creation of the first
Ithkuil page, I have heard about the Russian interest in the language (the first time around, I had never heard of Ithkuil, but now it seems to be a favorite on conlanging sites -- now I'd vote to keep it). As you'll notice, there's an interlanguage link to Russian. It
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Hey, I was the one who worked hard to save Ceqli back from deletion. The original deletion of Ceqli was started by a nomination from a conlanger who knew that the author of Ceqli was the same person who created the article. However, after some fixing up the vanity factor was removed from the article.
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The idea of this article being deleted makes no sense to me. It is probably the most complex language in existence, and for that alone it deserves an article. It is the result of years of research, not an artistic creation meant to be used in some work of fiction, therefore you can't compare it with
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John
Quijada recently gave a talk on Ithkuil at an interdisciplinary conference in the Russian Republic of Kalmykia. It's probably too early for any articles about the conference to appear in the press, and they probably won't appear in the English-langauge press. I'm not sure if it suits to cite
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I also think there should be more information on the page. It most certainly needs an update. The past versions of the language are mostly irrelevant, and can be reduced to a section. The article on the current version of
Ithkuil (which is supposedly the final version) needs to be expanded to be at
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I don't think it will be possible to cite a source for this anymore, since the
Zompist BBoard thread in which it was posted seems to have disappeared. Google doesn't index the message board threads there, as far as I can tell, so there's no cache. I don't remember what the date of the posting or
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Frankly, I'm shocked about this talk of deletion based on some illogical arbitrary criterion regarding quantity of speakers. Clearly
Ithkuil is a complex topic of interest to many people including myself who, dispite degrees in anthropology that includes linguistic training, had never heard of it
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After creating article I found that it was actually recreating. Googling I found
Russian page for Ithkuil and Russian WIkibook project (It seems to be frozen). After creating article I found that it was actually recreating. Googling I found Russian page for Ithkuil (added hyperlink) and Russian
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I've argued about this with David Peterson before, saying that it's misleading and unhelpful to call his critical essays on conlangs "awards". That said, however, I think the series of essays published as "the Smiley Awards" is one of the best original critical writing on conlangs to appear in
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I am a conlanger and I admire Ithkuil excessively. But it's just not notable enough in the Knowledge (XXG) sense of the word to deserve its own article. It may have been influential on other conlangers in recent years, but it has zero speakers and has never been used in a professional work of
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I feel the same way. Ithkuil is a remarkable triumph in many ways, and clearly a labor of love--that said, I believe it is utterly unlearnable by any but the most supremely gifted humans--maybe not even them. I also don't share Quijada's zeal for hyperspecificity in language. Context is the
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in parallel with an /ʃ/ used variously for "sj" in northern dialects or "tj" in southern, never overlapping. The tongue is held as in /s/ for /ʂ/, but "blade of the tongue bunched up" seems how I pronounce it. The sound of it is considerably thicker and lower than in /ʃ/, making them clearly
1045:. But does he come into the rarified category of award givers that includes the Queen of the UK and (presumably - I'm not sure how the American honours system works) the President of the USA? (And I presume both of them have committees, panels and political groups behind their awards...)
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Ithkuil can be spoken, it just requires extensive knowledge of linguistics, phonetics and an understanding of how Quijada applied them. If you can do that, all you have to do is learn the 3600 'words' (word roots), which is far less than you need for any other functional language.
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Hi to All, sorry of being off. It seems i'd missed some discussion here. Why I think Ithkuil Wikiworthy enough to stay. I'm not conlanger or linguist at all, but Ithkuil highly impressed me for being a conlang that trying to show how a language can be, at least
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I don't know what "retroflexated alveolar" even means! Couldn't it be that the column is saying that the affricates simply have an alveolar plosive element with a retroflex fricative release (e.g. as opposed to having a retroflex plosive element (e.g. )? —
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or Paul Burgess's mna Vanantha, if I recall correctly getting about a paragraph. I don't currently have a copy of the book, or I would add a reference to the article myself; someone with access to a copy should do so whenever it's convenient.
372:, which has maybe 50 speakers at most, did manage to squeak by.) I'm pretty sure this Ithkuil article will be deleted again once the people who nominated it for deletion last time realize that it has been created again.
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notable enough to deserve a paragraph or so in a main article about logical constructed languages or philosophical constructed languages, and certainly a link to the main Ithkuil site from one or both of those articles.
1236:. Okay, the article on retroflexes isn't all that straightforward and seems to give two unrelated manners: blade of the tongue bunched up (okay, here I don't know the difference with "domed", which is mentioned on
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The example sentence is not notably more compact than its English translation, and in any case expresses a simple enough sentiment. That rather repudiates the 5-times faster claim, doesn't it?
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The same description holds for all the retroflexes, not just the affricates, so let's analyze it. The full description the site gives for /ʂ/ is a "voiceless apico-alveolar retroflex grooved
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on Knowledge (XXG): speakers or use in professionally published fiction. (But even Ceqli, which has several speakers besides its author, was not considered notable and got deleted; while
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Also, there is another conlang that was constructed to be so syntactically complex no human could think or speak in it. It used the idea of recursive stacks. Can anyone remember its name?
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There exists no human who can speak Ithkuil, including its creator: “I don't speak Ithkuil, never have, never will, never claimed to.” — said John Quijada <!-- dead link--: -->
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ultimate communicator, and Ithkuil seems to leave nothing to context. And the vagueness and murkiness of words and meanings is part of the allure and seduction of language, IMHO.
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The answer is in fact much simpler. When the author says retroflex he means laminal alveolar. He even can't pronounce his own conlang, many sound examples are clearly wrong.--
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The language is obviously dead. It won't work in any sense. It is contrary to the nature, and nature loves simplicity. Nevertheless I respect the author's devotion --
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least as big as that of other languages, and include explanations on the grammatical, phonetic and the writing system far more extensively than it currently does.
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You'd use a different word for "my" depending on whether you own the hovercraft or are merely in posession of it. Breaking it down, it goes something like this:
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I remember I saw it there. But the threads are gone. I think WebArchive doesn't collect dynamic pages. Ypou may ask the author, he had made few fixes here.
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I've asked for bibliographic info on the Russian article's talk page. Hopefully someone will eventually add it, or send it to me and let me add it. --
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1141:, you may want to check out that page. All phonology sections on Knowledge (XXG) should have /ʼ/ indicating ejectives and never palatalization. --
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WIkibook project . Just to mention that English isn't my mother tongue I'll heartily appreciate any help or suggestions for improving this topic.
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I counted the syllables of the sentence about the car. The Ithkuil version has 40 syllables, while the English has 66. About 30% shorter. —
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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1355:!) 14:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Actually, that wouldn't be important, no matter how common Quijada's Ithkuil examples involve clowns.
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I've contacted the originator of this quote, and he requested that it be removed. It's funny and clever but notably non-notable. --
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seconded, yes please someone write at least one or two sentences. I personally would like to see 'My hovercraft is full of eels'.
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has a discussion of Ithkuil along with several other notable modern conlangs; it's discussed more briefly than Sylvia Sotomayor's
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That was a quote by the creator, John Quijada. I hope that corrects any wrong impressions of what this language is meant to be. --
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The vertical boustrophedon text is from the old version. For example: /ɤ/ is ë, and it's not in new Ithkuil. It needs replaced.
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Quijada's web page about the conference; it would be better to cite an article in the Kalmyk or Russian press, if one appears.
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399:. But I still don't think there's much hope for Ithkuil to survive another vote for deletion, given the lack of speakers. --
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I admire the language. It cant be spoken, true. .. but thats also true for many other conlangs, and for far sillier reasons.
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Not at all. You're not re-creating the article unless you paste in the same text as the first writer of the article.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I'd noticied that Ithkuil page was created in the past & deleted after some time, discussion about deletion
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Yes, I think you're right. Swedish have an /ʂ/ when /r/ assimilates with a following /s/, such as in "kors"
1033:(copying a comment from the AfD page here so I can reply to it, as AfD was closed by the time I saw this...)
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Seriously, "nature" is a figment of your imagination. Ithkuil was never spoken and "nature" never existed.
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To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant
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If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used.
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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578:. If he does not get back to you in a few days, I will try to guess his name's correct transliteration.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1651:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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I have updated some of the links and marked some as dead, but I haven't done anything to the examples.
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before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
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grow. Beside, it is in our human "nature" to create bigger and more complex things (even language).
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https://web.archive.org/web/20090607204552/http://www.ithkuil.net/ithkuil-ch2-morphophonology.htm
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What does the apostrophe here mean? I thought this stood for palatalization, like with <ʲ: -->
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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conlangs like Klingon or Ceqli or make any relevant arguments about its number of speakers.
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New version of website placed in production; old Ithkuil site plus Ilaksh site withdrawn.
970:"The most remarkable aspect of Ithkuil is that it is the only life-threatening conlang."
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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Someone should include an image of some ithkuil script. Most remarcable script it is.
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article was deleted, it was later undeleted after another discussion and vote. See
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Both sentences are in fact noticeably shorter than their English translations. --
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I've almost got it, though I've not got the word for hovercraft. It would be:
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This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image
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41:. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
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fiction. Those seem to be the two criteria for a conlang to be considered
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Can somebody with undelete powers please undelete the history of the page
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There seems to be a LiveJournal community of people interested in Ithkuil
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Magazine: Computerra (same jeux de mots as in English: Computer + Terra)
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seems to be written by the same person who wrote the English article.
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This is stupid, Ithkuil has no speakers BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO.
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That said, for what it is, Ithkuil is a work of genius. (same author)
1232:. This would let us believe it's a simple , weren't it for the word
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As for the author's name, I will forward your question directly to
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http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/12/24/121224fa_fact_foer
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After creating article I found that it was actually recreating.
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Paper version: magazine «Компьютерра», №26-27, June 20, 2004
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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If the image has already been deleted you may want to try
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All Knowledge (XXG) files with unknown copyright status
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File:Ithkuil sentence.ogg Nominated for speedy Deletion
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sounds, so technically they should be palatalizable. --
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http://www.ithkuil.net/ithkuil-ch2-morphophonology.htm
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http://www.ithkuil.net/ithkuil-ch2-morphophonology.htm
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I think it is important to mention clowns somewhere.
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Can some one write a few sentences in this language?
277:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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1697:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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Another source and piece of evidence for notability
884:My ??? contains-at-full-capacity a-bunch-of-eels.
353:Heh. I guess the article make no harm to anyone.
186:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Constructed languages
1118:, but how can one palatalize a retroflex like ?
606:Correct transliteration is "Stanislav Kozlovsky"
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1683:This message was posted before February 2018.
1394:July 2011 revision of John Quijada's web site
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1796:Mid-importance constructed language articles
1008:http://dedalvs.conlang.org/smileys/2008.html
906:The new Ithkuil page offers this citably.
725:Fuck nature. Nature is dead. Ithkuil lives.
1388:http://www.ithkuil.net/kalmykia_forum.html
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1224:fricative". Let's first notice that it is
934:Unable to cite source since it is gone now
889:Now we just need the word for hovercraft.
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1584:image page (File:Ithkuil sentence.ogg)
1189:Ithkuil site section on its consonants
1091:Hildegard of Bingen's Unknown Language
541:«Скорость мысли», Станислав Козловский
531:«Скорость мысли», Станислав Козловский
416:article was the language's inventor).
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453:Totally in agreement. Why deletion???
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945:the title of the thread was, now. --
571:Article title is "Speed of thought".
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180:and see a list of open tasks.
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1159:are actually retroflexated
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876:tei/tai ?ai? hraph stafueb.
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1640:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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983:in that case it should be
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375:However, Ithkuil probably
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1003:2008 Smiley Award! ~:D
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1502:John Quijada
1496:— Preceding
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528:Here it is:
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111:WikiProjects
68:
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49:No consensus
48:
1552:Don't panic
1014:—Preceding
857:stephan.com
742:—Preceding
441:—Preceding
18:Talk:Ilaksh
1785:Categories
1763:Braden1127
1746:Report bug
1363:Braden1127
687:Complexity
629:Thanks. --
397:Talk:Ceqli
334:Notability
73:discussion
63:discussion
53:discussion
1729:this tool
1722:this tool
1234:retroflex
1100:Jim Henry
1066:Jim Henry
947:Jim Henry
915:Starprizm
815:Starprizm
631:Jim Henry
509:Jim Henry
481:Jim Henry
401:Jim Henry
382:Jim Henry
370:Toki Pona
288:Languages
279:languages
235:Languages
1735:Cheers.—
1564:non-free
1510:contribs
1498:unsigned
1371:contribs
1359:unsigned
1347:dixit. (
1283:dixit. (
1230:alveolar
1222:sibilant
1161:alveolar
1135:ejective
1016:unsigned
923:contribs
911:unsigned
823:contribs
811:unsigned
744:unsigned
39:deletion
1649:my edit
1645:Ithkuil
1620:regards
1458:JorisvS
1421:Johan G
1246:JorisvS
1165:JorisvS
1143:JorisvS
1047:Peridon
844:Wiwaxia
840:Ithkuil
693:Amakuha
676:Wiwaxia
664:Any_Key
496:Wiwaxia
443:comment
438:DHBoggs
418:Wiwaxia
414:Ithkuil
366:notable
315:on the
210:on the
101:C-class
1476:N-true
1345:Rursus
1339:Clowns
1281:Rursus
1226:apical
1205:Ƶ§œš¹
1120:Wisapi
107:scale.
69:Delete
1276:cross
1095:Kēlen
989:Bob A
891:Bob A
393:Ceqli
1627:talk
1597:talk
1506:talk
1480:talk
1462:talk
1447:talk
1425:talk
1367:talk
1351:bork
1321:talk
1287:bork
1250:talk
1169:talk
1147:talk
1124:talk
1113:ʈ͡ʂʼ
1104:talk
1070:talk
1051:talk
1024:talk
993:talk
919:talk
895:talk
861:talk
834:Misc
819:talk
796:talk
752:talk
635:Talk
513:Talk
485:Talk
405:Talk
386:Talk
344:here
307:High
59:Keep
1768:イクラ
1703:RfC
1673:to
1663:to
1434:S-W
1400:all
1291:!)
1139:IPA
1137:in
1089:'s
975:Ozy
583:DIG
576:him
549:DIG
202:Mid
1787::
1716:.
1711:}}
1707:{{
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