Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 23

4487:

while ALSO supporting the right of Israel to exist. So it wouldn't be correct to divide things into pro-Israel and pro-Palestine. What do those divisions even really mean? People can be "pro-Israel" because they want to support innocent Israelis that were killed and taken hostage, and still not want war. People can be "pro-Palestine" because they want to support innocent Palestinians that are being killed in air strikes and suffering because they need humanitarian aid, and want an end to the occupation, without supporting Palestinian militants like Hamas. The Israeli peace activists that were murdered and taken hostage were for Palestinian rights and they did not support Hamas. Maybe pro-war and anti-war would be better. However you decide to do it, it is important to include the deleted text/refs with Jewish voices from the diaspora that explicitly condemned the October 7th attacks. I am no longer editing this article. That's partly why I said, "Just FYI for other editors that want to fix, not for more discussion." But I wanted to respond to your specific comment. Good luck with your editing and thank you!

1566: 5490: 820:— As RfC starter, I am going to refrain from commenting for now. This RfC was started given several content disputes and various talk page discussions around this overall topic. I attempted to look through some of the article history and I believe option 1-4 covered any previous styles of the US being added in the infobox. I added option 5 incase I missed a format style. Obviously, option 6 is for those who oppose it being added. Anyway, an RfC was for sure needed to solve all the various content disputes on this topic. 3451:"The partial exception is the database of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), which checks both Gazan and Israeli numbers with at least one other source, according to its website. This takes time, however, and OCHA has not updated its database with tolls from the current war." and since this is what started all this fruitless debate, OCHA is the best source, we should just use it, since that is where all the RS are in effect getting their info already. 3015:. You not getting your way in one discussion doesn’t entitle you to try to run around that with an edit that also does not have consensus. The fact that we include the numbers and have done so uncontroversially from the start means there is consensus for that. If you’d like to demonstrate otherwise feel free but just demanding that unless you get your way with the attribution you will remove what does have consensus is something you can try I guess and we can see how that might go. 31: 4210: 5531: 5442: 4891: 1349: 376: 167: 2030:. Israel's defense minister said “There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed” and “We are fighting human animals". You can say he was talking about Hamas. But, the electricity, food, and fuel affects 2.2 million Palestinians, which includes about one million children. So it seems Hamas doesn't see them as civilians, and the IDF thinks Palestinians are animals. 1969:

caution that the quality of the sources between the two are different (we know that hamas lied and said there were 500+ killed in the hospital strike, we now know that it was probably not even Israel and that at best 200-300 died). If we have a reliable source calling a particular airstrike, or even the combined sum of airstrikes, a massacre then we can list them and go from there?

2529:...the death of the four fighters signaled the first “successful” incursion by terrorists at Zikim. It’s still not clear why the attackers did not exploit the opportunity to take over all the positions at the base.. Shay thinks they were exhausted and concluded the battle with seriously diminished forces. However, in one case at least a terrorist succeeded in penetrating Zikim. 3073:"I think this entire discussion on systematically attributing the sources of the death -- that is saying that the health ministry is Hamas-run data or not -- is gonna be a pain to maintain over the long run, and it's gonna significantly derail the readability of the page. What I would do is to have a single sentence at the Casualties section that states something like: 1983:"at best 200-300 died" is a very vulgar and disgusting way that IDF and their propaganda wings dehumanizes the populations within Gaza, implying they must be killed (or "died" as if some disease randomly exploded the hospital. The bias in this article is inexcusable and something must be done to combat this. These airstrikes are massacres by every objective definition. 3245:

Sorry, but that isnt going to just go over unopposed. We all operate under the same rules here, and part of that is accepting when we dont have consensus for a change. Im not out here demanding that because we did not rename the article Israel-Gaza War that we must change it to Likud-Hamas War and that the ONUS for including Israel as a belligerent has not been met.

4403: 4250: 2813: 1829: 136: 3624:, the source used as a reference identifies only verbal support and discusses the positioning of US military assets in the region. I don't think this meets the expectations arising from identifying the US as a supporter under belligerents in the info box. There are many other verbal supporters of both sides that aren't similarly identified. 5580: 5397: 2722: 1597: 1077:— Given the US military shooting down missiles launched believed to be going towards Israel, they are a belligerent now and deserve to be listed. Option 3 is the best as the US isn’t fully involved in the Gaza Strip conflict, but more around the region. Noting, option 3 was previously used in the article (within the last 24 hours). 3839:: "Many experts consider figures provided by the ministry reliable, given its access, sources and accuracy in past statements." The article likewise notes that Israeli casualty figures don't differentiate between combatants and civilians so there's really no justification beyond POV for flagging only one side's figures. 5291:

Thats alright, thanks for letting me know. Something that should be mentioned that in English, "murder" has a very specifically tailored definition that pertains to killings deliberately done in cold blood. That is why it initially came across as strange (and honestly a little inflammatory) to use it

3752:

Quote from Biden: "What they say to me is that I have no notion the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many are killed ... I'm sure innocents have been killed and it's the price of waging a war ... The Israelis should be incredibly careful to be sure that they're focusing on going after the

2997:

I disagree; it's not uncommon for us to not include casualties in the infobox and instead direct readers to a section or an article that can provide the necessary details and nuance. I believe that such an action would be appropriate at the moment, at least until we get a consensus on how and whether

2794:

The sentence "Both Israel and the U.S stated that there is no concrete evidence of Iran's involvement, and Iran has denied any role in the attack" is the first time Iran is mentioned in the article. This sentence only makes sense in the context of the lead if the reader understands that there is some

4354:

As many countries are showcasing solidarity with gaza,their should be a section(or atleast a mention) for countries who are ready to take in gaza refugees/displaced people. i only came accross scotland: Humza Yousaf, the First Minister of Scotland, has offered to welcome refugees from Gaza and treat

3309:

Depends on the article, and it does answer your question, just not in the way youd like. But seeing as how this isnt an interrogation and youre not my boss I dont really need to answer your question the way you want me to. Including casualty counts in the infobox is stable and the current consensus,

2362:

It's more an impotent gumming by an elderly dementia patient than a "bite back". Use your head, please. This is a comment section about whether Hamas controls to this day an Israeli military base on Israeli soil, not about whether Zikim or the waters around it will be permanently quiet for all time.

1932:

I can't fathom that none of these are considered massacres. Airstrike sounds a much neutral benign word than massacre, and yet Airstrikes are much deadler than anything Hamas or other militants did. Airstrikes burn victims and cause very high collateral damage, not to mention the trauma that follows

1230:

and consisted of 4 ballistic missiles, each weighting over 410 kilograms as well as 15 suicide drones. The website notes that the failed PIJ rocket which targeted the Gazan hospital by accident in comparison weighted only 60 kg's but caused hundreds of casualties. Had this attack been successful, it

3244:

Even then, youll need a consensus for your change. Again, you cant artificially impose a status quo from which to start an RFC. You didnt get the consensus you wanted at NPOVN, nor here, and so youre going to effectively demand that unless you get your way there then there can be no numbers at all.

1464:

Q. Why does the conflict name use a political party for one side and a country for the other? A. That's what the press does. But this is an encyclopedia not merely a repeater of spin. Discuss here whether we should add a paragraph (or section) pointing out that the parties involved are Likud and

5246:

In the infobox under the h note there are 3 PIJ and 3 Hamas fighters listed along the Hezbollah fighters and civilians, and I ask why? In the sources I've only found they've been murdered close to Lebanon but not that they are lebanese, so why include them there and not in the "Murdered in Israel"

4152:

we can write as per idf produced evidence. also are reliable secondry sources in business of evaluating evidences? for eg:if a public video is produced of hamas decapitating people , why would you need other sources to report it too? by your logic, all the claims and evidences gaza ministry makes

2025:

Sorry Chuckstablers, but do you rate this by a percentage of the entire population of Israel vs. Palestine, a city, a neighborhood, a Kibbutz, a family. One Palestinian family lost 19 family members. I don't think percentage is a meaningful measurement in general. Thousands of Palestinian children

1968:

Ultimately though, we need reliable sources calling them a massacre. We have reliable source calling the massacres the palestinians did massacres. We do not have reliable sources calling individual airstrikes a massacre. Maybe there are some calling the overall death toll a massacre? Though I must

1166:

The only way I see that anyone is a "belligerent" is if it takes defensive/offensive military actions itself. The only place that I know of that the US has done so in direct connection to the war in Israel is in the Red Sea. And that was against Houthi missiles fired toward Israel. So, the Houthis

3808:

The simple fact is that single source verification is not verification. The casualties reported by the Gaza Health Ministry should say “claimed” until secondary verification is possible. Especially now that numerous voices have chimed in that the Health Ministry is not a reliable source (at least

2187:

and elsewhere it states that Israel retook all of its territory two days after the initial attack: October 9th. I don't think it's a violation of SYNTH when citing the sources I mentioned to reasonably conclude that the "battle" for that base was over, at the latest, by the 9th. Israeli territory

2162:

Are there any claims that the IDF has not retaken all territory - that Hamas remains in control of any territory outside of Gaza? For this to be true would be extraordinary; that despite the mobilization of 360,000 soldiers the most powerful military in the Middle East has not been able to regain

1810:

Under the strength section it describes 2500 Hamas militants infiltrated Israel, implying that they are still within Israel right now, it is entirely likely they would have retreated back into Gaza by now. The source for this claim is from the 13th and it should either be confirmed and the source

1281:

The belligerents section has Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, yet the units involved section doesn't. I believe it should be changed so the belligerents section has Fatah instead of Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades (since Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is part of Fatah), and the units involved section then has Al-Aqsa

4486:

I suggest you follow whatever the reliable sources are saying in making your edits The majority of sources about reactions from the Jewish diaspora show many people (especially Jews in the US and UK) condemned the massacre of civilians in Israel on Oct. 7th AND Israel's subsequent siege on Gaza,

2917:

Im well aware of that discussion, there is clearly no consensus for your position there. You think there is not consensus for having casualties in the infobox at all? Really? No, ONUS is met for the inclusion of casualties, and it is not met for your repeated attempt to force inline attributions

1508:

Agreed, and this is frankly a dumb suggestion, and has nothing to do with "spin". Wars are generally not named for the politicial parties that headed them during the conflict, and the Israeli government is a coalition, and not governed by Likud alone. Hamas is not really comparable as it doesn't

5295:

In my personal opinion, it seems like a better and more neutral sounding alternative regarding that specific situation would be simply be "killed", as it doesn't have the same exact baggage as "murder." Normally, this is just a trivial bit of semantics, but it is a very important distinction in

5036:

Great, thanks! I don't think that should be too controversial; the prior language was discussed and represents a compromise between users who wanted to use "hostages" to describe both civilians and soldiers, and users who wanted to use "captives" as a blanket term. Disambiguation was considered

4698:

This would require independent confirmation preferably from the aid agencies providing these food supplies. It is a remarkable claim, on the face of it, and therefore one would expect wider coverage, despite the general systemic bias in reportage. So too with the suggestion any battery-charging

2461:

Then how do we explain the subsequent clashing from 10 October to 16 October? Those are cited in the battle article. Is it ongoing during that time? Did Israel win? That’s the problem. Capturing “all” territory doesn’t really work when there is 6 more days worth of battles cited in the article.

2034:

All sides lie. Look, in no way am I trying to belittle the massacre of Israelis or excuse Hamas. But, to me, your post sounds insensitive to the overall suffering. And we do need to solve the problem that the media use different terms for different sides and keep the article balanced within our

1928:

This article has plenty of Palestinian massacres giving a one-sided impression that the only side that is making any crime are Palestinians. So far more than 6000 have been killed in Gaza, including more than 2000 children. Strikes have been proven to target bakeries, supermarkets, and probably

4104:. also not going to debate on the legal age, legal framework, motives,volutary participation, ideology, and other differences between the two. just provided the information. editors/admins will decide if its relevant or not. if not, it will be discarded like many other critical info.no issues. 5102:

As well I had previously noted in a separate discussion that the reference to "women and children" was somewhat ambiguous, as female IDF soldiers are POWs, while female civilians are not, so I have no objection to the removal of that from the lead. The identities of the captives are discussed

3748:

Updating with Today’s news, for potential edit in casualties section. Updated US Government position (as stated by Joe Biden) is that Hamas Health Ministry numbers are unreliable and are likely over-inflated. Given that there are no independent sources on ground to verify Gaza Health Ministry

3569:

Present the figures the same way OCHA does, attributed like they do. They usually do a double check but can't with all the goings on but its still the best info out there. "International organizations including the United Nations usually rely on these same figures as they are seen as the best

3149:

you’ll need consensus for that change, there is obvious consensus for including casualties in the infobox as it stands now, given the editors who have have edited it over the last few weeks. You don’t get to just decide where the status quo to start an RFC is from, that starts from the stable

3040:

So, I ask I again; please point to the consensus that says we should include casualties in the infobox without inline attribution. In the absence of such a consensus, we should replace the number with a link to the relevant section or article - we have both, I have no preference which we link

2699:

The U.S is now on the ground albeit not very effective as of now. We know, through the words of Douglas Mcgregor that a combined American-Israeli military unit entered Gaza and were subsequently wiped out, presumably killed and captured. We should really consider adding the U.S to the list of

2403:

There's been plenty of attempted infiltrations all over the Gaza-Israel region since October 7th, including in Zikim. None of that changes anything about the question over whether a military base in Zikim is and has been in Hamas' control since the 7th. I'm not sure why you think this news of

5673:

The Israel Defense Forces have released footage that is said to depict commandos using their new "Iron Sting" weapon system against Hamas in one of its initial operational deployments. The laser and GPS-guided mortar is designed to target urban environments, as described by its manufacturer,

5084:

In my view your edit is quite helpful for indicating the uncertainty regarding the exact ratio of civilians and soldiers among those taken captive. The prior language could be taken as implying that the 200 captives were in addition to (not including) soldiers. So I see your wording as fully

4983:

This concerns an edit you made. I happen to prefer the older language. Whether or not the captured Israeli soldiers qualify (or are being treated) as POWs is a separate discussion, but I do think it is better in the lead paragraph to include the two broad categories of captives—civilians and

2147:

From what I’ve looked through, the only evidence supporting that all, and I mean all of the territory with militant presence from Gaza was retaken is a claim by the idf on October 9th, if it is to be mentioned then it should only be “Israel claims”, not written as if the case is 100% proven.

3911:

Your comments on this talk page will likely be seen as a violation of your current editing block in place for this page. Recommend you self-revert recent comments and withhold from contributing until your block expires. Also - gentle reminder to keep a congenial tone as per ARBPIA rules..

5262:

Simply because they were killed while participating in the Lebanese border clashes under the Hezbollah banner. As a quick question, why did you use the word "murdered" in your post? They were combat deaths after all, and it just seems a little unusual to use that word in such a context.

3554:

Usually attributed. I'm actually struggling to understand your position; you seem to hold OCHA in high regard - and, from what I've seen, it's reasonable to do so - but in this case you want to jump the gun and put a level of confidence in these figures beyond what OCHA is ready to put?

1035:

Because past experience indicates that what will happen is that responses will be spread out among the options, resulting in nocon. An RFC should not really have more than 2 or perhaps 3 options depending on the question. If option 4 is in fact deprecated, it should not be there anyway.

2123:(key word) territory. Sources say yes, but no source has actually point blank said Bahad 4 was recaptured and sources (post the supposed 9 October recapture of all territory) indicate fighting was at least ongoing there until 16 October - See battle Wiki article for info & sources. 2537:

article, I can tell you that most of these subsequent clashes have been isolated incidents involving the discovery and immediate killing of small groups of typically less than 5 fighters, which in no way indicates a continously ongoing battle with a force capable of holding Israeli

1187:

Ah ok. I am thinking about canceling this RfC, (archiving the discussion) and opening a new, better formatted one, given this is a slightly more complicated discussion. Given the other discussions and content disputes, it does need to happen though. Would anyone else like to do the

1018:

I also don’t understand why you say the “Yes” and “No” question can’t provide a clear answer? Option 1-5 are all “Yes”, just deciding the format and option 6 is “No.” It will be obviously whether “Yes” or “No” is the option, and if it is “Yes”, the different options show that.

1963:

I agree, airstrikes kill civilians and it's bad. There is clearly a difference between that and killing 20% of the population of an entire Kibbutz, deliberately targeting civilians (no disagreement between the parties there, other than Hamas doesn't see them as civilians).

4471:

page. I'm all for trimmming down the current page, but the content that is trimmed should ideally be placed somewhere else. Like now, I can't easily find on Knowledge how some Jewish diaspora groups were pro-war and some are anti-war, and even protested in the US Capitol

3703:

The current source for Palestinian civilian deaths originates from the Hamas run Gaza health ministry of health. given their history of exaggeration and that the number of casualties is in dispute we should find an alternate source or at least put a "per Hamas" tag on it

3896:

When you indiscriminately bomb one of the most densely populated places on earth for 2 weeks straight lots of people tend to die, shocker I know. Just because you personally dislike the government in Gaza that the ministry serves under it doesn’t really mean much

3397:

If this is the status quo. Which is why I was asking Nableezy to demonstrate that this it is; to say how long that they believe is sufficient to establish stability. At the moment it's quite indisputable that it was not stable between the two diffs they provided.

2795:

Hamas-Iran connection or that people suspect Iran could have been involved in this. The uninformed reader may not understand that sentence. It would be perhaps be wise to preface the sentence with something like "Despite suspicions of Iranian involvement...."

558:

way that the US is a "belligerent" is in the Red Sea naval action a few days ago when it shot down Houthi cruise missiles and drones. If you include that in the theater of war, then, yes, the US is technically a belligerent—but, so are the Houthis, now. --

3330:

Then let me respond to your response. It hasn't been stable between the two diffs you provided, and it certainly hasn't gone undisputed on the talk page. There is no stable version, and in the absence of a stable version - in the absence of a consensus -

4501:

Hovsepig, I just realized that you might not have done enough edits to make changes to this article. If not, the best thing to do would be to ask another editor with editing privileges (other than me) to make the edits you want, by using this Talk page.

4922:

Please revert “Hundreds of civilian hostages, including women, children and the elderly, were abducted and taken to the Gaza Strip” to “Unarmed civilian hostages and captured Israeli soldiers were taken to the Gaza Strip, including women and children.”

1224: 4702:

The empirical description of a new kind of weapon is worth pursuing, because people on the ground in wars learn to distinguish types of rocketry so they may take precautions, depending on the noise profile (innumerable WW1/WW2 histories confirm that

1307:

for the archived discussions that went into this decision, where we determined that the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades are acting independently of Fatah despite their nominal affiliation. If you have references that suggest otherwise please provide them.

2333:

the IDF claimed that they used tunnels from the Gaza Strip and emerged from the Mediterranean. By no means does anything that happened yesterday indicate that Hamas has held Israeli territory for seventeen straight days, don't be disingenuous now.

3719:

I don't think wee need to change the infobox, as it is explained in the #Casualties section in the article. Infobox is a quick summary. Perhaps you could add to the footnote "d", but that would then add more repetition to an already large page.

4070: 1933:

a small child who witnesses one. We can see a lot of videos of children shaking, those children will most likely spend their lives in a psychiatric institution. We need to uphold Knowledge values and make this article a little more unbiased.

3827:

corroborating the Israeli casualty figures, if, as you state, "single source verification is not verification"? If not, I assume you would support saying "Alleged by Israel" in the infobox, in relation to those casualties. (Note also the

5645:

article at this point. If the Iron Beam is actually employed in the conflict, it can naturally be discussed here when that happens—e.g., "On X Date, Israel employed its Iron Beam system for the first time, destroying an XYZ missile ..."

2974:

A 'non-starter'? There were like a bunch of previous talks where a bunch of editors were all like, 'Let's chat about casualties in the main article,'? Should we tally votes or something? Personally, I'm cool with that idea. Like, as of

5134: 2514: 971:

If that is the only RFCbefore, then we don't need this RFC because the conclusion was to remove it and it was removed. I think that is not the first time it has been inserted and removed. That discussion is also only about Option 4.

1766:

also if we talking, the starting details should have USA as supporter and supplier of Israel, and same for Iran and Hamas, (training and weaponry prior to the event, and support of hezbolla and other miltias in Lebanon and Syria.

4727:? We can't use theirs, per copyright, but we can use the same general design, and it would show the difference much more clearly. (Keep in mind that L'Orient Today's chart is outdated and missing many recent Palestinian deaths.) 3044:

At the moment, these figures are controversial; we should be erring on the side of caution, and that means either attributing them or sending readers to a section that can provide the details with appropriate nuance and detail.

2075:

There has been several minor content disputes surrounding this battle's topic, so a discussion is needed to once and for all clear up it. In a previous (now archived) talk page discussion, the situation was described previously:

3314:(and I kinda think it does mean what I think it means). If you try to impose your edits without consensus then we can raise that issue elsewhere. The productive thing would be to try to get consensus for your change instead. 2088:. No source that I am aware of claims Bahad 4 was directly recaptured by Israel, and sources (all the way to October 16) indicated fighting was still ongoing - See battle article for further details on the various clashes. 467:

and several other U.S. military officers to Israel "to help advise the Israeli military's leadership in its ground operation in Gaza." Additionally, it was reported on Friday that a U.S. Navy destroyer had intercepted a

4373: 2051:

This is the usual thing, state actors are generally favored over non state and the sources then tend to reflect that legal reality. There is however no shortage of sources referring to Israeli actions as war crimes.

3102:

Which is why I am proposing a conservative interim measure while we hold an RfC; there is no harm done if we attribute unnecessarily - but there is significant harm done if we don't attribute when we needed to.

2242:

The battle occurred on 7 October, what we are looking for is a source that properly states Israel retook all (stressing on all) territories on 9 October, aside from “Israel said”. The burden is on them, not us

1149:

Quick question, could you give a reasoning for that? I think I know why, but since I was hoping to do one discussion at a time (US - Yes/No first), some extra reasoning would be helpful for all of us. Cheers!

4999:

Sure, fair enough. I am not advocating for inclusion of "POW" in the lead or proposing any discussion of it here, since that conversation was already had, and it resulted in the language referred to above.

4753:

I'm not familiar with creating that style of graph, and I think it's fine as it is, but I'll take a shot at it when I get home. If anyone else who knows how to make it could help out, that would be great.

2748:

If a reporter translating hearsay in Kfar Azza was able to make everyone go crazy about the 40 babies myth as if it actually occurred, I don’t see why a claim by a former US colonel shouldn’t be believed.

5408:

points out that the infobox is to summarize the information. Adding an explanation like that would be too much. That said, I think it would warrant inclusion in the article itself if you can provide some

4945:

of the previous wording, which was discussed and agreed to by various users. As well, the sources cited for the current phrasing don’t suggest that the “hundreds” of “hostages” were or are all civilians:

1907:

Updating casualities in an ongoing crisis (or war) is tricky as it can change day by day. Perhaps an update once a week would be easier, but I agree with the suggestion that the figure should be updated.

3076:"There has been suspicion on the exact measures reported by the Gaza Health Ministry, because it is run by Hamas . Though various news source report that this Ministry is reliable (Washington Post ref). 5135:

https://www.aljazeera.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/%D8%AA%D9%82%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%8A-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%87%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%A1-2.pdf

1243:

U.S. has sent a three star general and several other U.S. military officers to Israel "to help advise the Israeli military's leadership in its ground operation in Gaza. Additionally, U.S. is reported

108: 1392: 4383: 2796: 4930:

adds no new information or sources, is not compellingly justified by the editor who made the change, raises NPOV issues, and is misleading, as RS are reporting that soldiers were also captured:

1872:

Ha. Just remembered I am extended protected now so I could change it myself. The account responsible should be found & disciplinary action should be considered. Looked like vandalism to me.

348:

The Guardian, reporting the same, said that "An increasing number of pro-Palestinian voices have been censored in recent weeks with conferences being cancelled and media appearances suppressed."

2664:

up to 16 October. Those reports concerned Zikim Beach, as has, from what I gather, every report after the first day of the war. In other words, there are no reports indicating fighting at the

5669: 1857:

UK PM Rishi Sunak's name is misspelled under the "in opposition" subheading of the "ceasefire" heading. Should be corrected & linked to the correct article (not the mispelling redirect).

1997:

We just now have an airstrike that killed several civilians in Wadi Gaza. It's important to note that this is a destination that IDF ordered Gazans to escape to in order to save their lives.

899: 5755: 4378: 2363:

There can always be attempted infiltrations of anywhere on the front lines in the future, but we're discussing whether there's still an ongoing battle over a captured military base. --

1686:

The lead says Iran was not involved in the war "both Israel and the US have stated that there is no concrete evidence of Iran's involvement, and Iran has denied any role in the attack"

435:

from 2 minutes earlier in which he (presumably inadvertently) added a second copy of that image, which was already present elsewhere in the article. That image is still in the article.

226:

from 2 minutes earlier in which he (presumably inadvertently) added a second copy of that image, which was already present elsewhere in the article. That image is still in the article.

511:

Nope. US advisors are in Ukraine, too but US is not a belligerent as such. I would think, without looking at sources, one would need to see actual combat with an existing belligerent.

2486:

that those clashes (I'd need citations to examine them) were due to isolated groups of Hamas militants still roaming the countryside or secondary infiltration attempts after Oct 7th.

266:

I think it's safe to remove any neutrality tags that aren't associated with a specific, actionable complaint here on the talk page. Otherwise we might as well just tag every section.

4374:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article/scotlands-leader-calls-to-welcome-palestinian-refugees-to-the-u-k-amid-hamas-israel-war/0000018b-4776-d614-abcf-ef7760540000

3037:

With inline attribution for most of the first week, and with disagreement both in the article and on the talk page regarding how to attribute throughout the existence of the article.

1700:

Even if Iran was not involved in the attack, the country is still involved in the whole war, especially in Lebanon and Syria front, and the Iraqi millitias attack on US bases there.

4553:

So what are you trying to say here? The material removed removed was not directly related, but did show Iran's opposition to Israel. Not every statement made needs to be included.

3753:

folks that are propagating this war against Israel and it's against their interest when that doesn't happen but I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using."

998:

are two previous discussions related with USA in the infobox. Plus the content dispute early this morning (USA added for several hours then removed) is clear enough for RFCBEFORE.

5375:

Please add an explanation in the infobox about the over 40 percent of Palestinian deaths being children, which explains the extremely low median age of the Gaza Strip population (

4358: 3466:

I'm not sure I have understood this proposal correctly; given that OCHA does not have figures for the current war yet wouldn't that entail removing the figures from the infobox?

2257:

Well, I guess you'll have an ongoing battle with an undefeatable Hamas force in the Israeli rear going on forever since you seem devoid of common sense. It doesn't bother me. --

2348:

I am aware, but raids indicates the border hasn’t been pacified like Israel claims has done in two days. Also a good bite back at veggie’s snarky comment about “common sense”

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Alongside U.S involvement, we should also add this new “Islamic Resistance of Iraq” faction and as more information and articles surface, we can vastly improve this article.

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Additionally, in response to your question on how we explain the subsequent clashing from 10 October to 16 October: as the person responsible for most of the content on the

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For a version to be stable it needs to not be disputed either in the article or on the talk page for a sufficient length of time. How long are you assessing as sufficient?

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I made edits to this sentence in the article before finding this discussion. If I've inadvertently overruled the result of this discussion, please accept my apologies. —

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WOW! That is such a detailed article. I'll let others fix the article, but I think that source alone will solve/answer any questions related to the article. Amazing find!

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Hovsepig's proposal isn't viable, because if we need to attribute we need to ensure the reader sees that attribution - this is also why the notes aren't a viable option.

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regarding enemy combatants. One can make an argument about civilian victims from Israeli bombing campaigns, but that is another can of worms I'm not going to open here.

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But USA sends military aid worth billions of dollars to Israel every year. They have also sent their troops in Israel as per several sources. Isn't it enough? Source:

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And he later retracted that and said he was misinformed. compare to the Gaza health ministry which still claims to have counted 471 dead in the hospital explosion.

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and the prior consensus. among other things, you don't get to just throw ONUS at this in that way, there is even an ongoing discussion about that sort of thing at

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I didnt talk only about hamas, The war includes hezbolla, Iranian militias in Syria (Israel bombed targets in Syria), and the Houtis which fired rockets on Israel.

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Some of the deads are Wael Dahdouh's family (his wife, son, and daughter). Wael Dahdouh is arguably the most prominent journalist that is covering Israeli crimes.

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Oh that makes sense, I personally would use it to desribe the dead palestinian civilians, well I will be more careful in the future, thanks for letting me know!

532:. Ukraine is a conflict where U.S. is seeking to avoid appearing as a direct belligerent in order to avoid confrontation with Russia. That is not the case here. 4384:

https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/willing-to-be-a-place-of-sanctuary-scotland-first-minister-says-ready-to-welcome-gaza-refugees-402497-2023-10-18

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The graph from the website doesn't have any numbers, and includes deaths from the war so that'll need to be fixed, if we decide to use it under as a PD chart.

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that could be cited in the infobox. His impression that Palestinians are dishonest could be noted elsewhere, but I don't see why that would go in the infobox.

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And since it is a different format, it should be uploaded as a separate file. That way people have choices as to what to use in articles and off-Knowledge. --

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That doesn't quite answer my question; how long are you assessing as a sufficient length of time without it being disputed for the version to become stable?

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If we can't identify a suitable interim version - if all versions are disputed and no existing consensus can be identified - then the only alternative, per

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available." and the Gaza HM "Many experts consider figures provided by the ministry reliable, given its access, sources and accuracy in past statements."

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You may have to wait years until an extremely comprehensive analysis of the military operations is published to get the precise answer you want. However,

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headed towards Israel. In light of these developments, notably the first one, it might be time to place U.S. in the belligerents section of the infobox.

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Usually we prefer secondary sources (like news orgs) of which I have seen more than a few. To "cite" the primary article, we would need a translation.

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https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/scotland-minister-humza-yousaf-offers-to-invite-gaza-refugees-to-scotland-faces-backlash-101697604233670.html

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Deprecated unless a discussion consensus agreed to use it. That is what it is. It isn’t “deprecated”. Just deprecated unless consensus says to use it.

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consistent with the spirit of this discussion. I'm not sure if someone might want to replace the commas with brackets, but that is purely stylistic.

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Joe Biden also claimed he saw photos of the 56 billion babies decapitated in kfar aza. Just because Joe Biden says something doesn’t mean it’s true

331: 2329:, all accounts of the 24 October incident at Zikim indicates that the Hamas force involved were naval forces/"frogmen"/"divers" who entered Israel 930:. Six choices is unlikely to provide a clear answer to the question, why not just ask the question directly, should the USA appear in the infobox? 631:

Then I have to put "Iran backs the group , providing it with funding, weapons and training except during this conflict (according to a WP editor)"

5680:

I'm a bit uncertain about where to place this information. Where can we include the specifics about the weapon systems that both sides are using?

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You're welcome. There are all kinds of ways to create charts. And a variety of charts are possible to cover deaths over time. Here are some tools:

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article. It doesn't seem like RS are paying a huge amount of attention these systems compared to, for example, the focus on Iron Dome during the

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https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2023/10/17/scotlands-first-minister-humza-yousaf-says-uk-should-offer-sanctuary-for-gaza-refugees/

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We could roll out the ever-popular "Supported by" subheading for the US but to list it as a belligerent on par with Israel is simply incorrect.

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Just FYI for other editors that want to fix, not for more discussion, since these talk sections were recently archived and not fully resolved:

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At a minimum, we gotta make sure we give proper credit for a number when we use it, instead of hiding the source in some tiny footnote, right?

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The document hasn't been translated yet but it seems better to cite the public document than a newspaper article talking about the document.

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Not a fan of the vertical bar chart look, though it's good that both chart were merged into one. Could we try a horizontal mirror bar chart,

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Yes. Do you have any sources that state (or even hint) that any part of Zikim is still under Hamas control?... No? Ah, I didn't think so. --

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So, can we either have a discussion about how to handle the situation or can someone locate a source specifically stating whether or not the

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I'm not aware of any consensus to include casualties in the infobox without inline attribution; if I am incorrect, can you please link it?

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Unfortunately I don't have a spreadsheets app that supports mirror bar charts (Excel does), or I'd recreate it without the recent deaths

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If sources say that all Israeli territory was recaptured, and sources say that Bahad 4 is Israeli territory, then I don't believe it is

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I want to sum up what might count as U.S. involvement in the conflict so far. First, on Friday, 20 October. U.S. Navy destroyers in the

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territory, we need a source directly stating the battle ended to say the battle ended and who won. Just a few minutes ago, two editors

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I think this would make sense to add to the Hamas article, but I think it is only obliquely relevant here as background information. --

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Last time I checked the map the key was using “presence of militants” instead of “occupied territory”, maybe you should use yours too

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I saw that article, too, a few days ago, but it was paywall-blocked, so I didn't want to cite it without having read through it. --

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That Iran and Hamas have a relationship is not disputed, nothing directly to do with this war, though. Can go in the Hamas article.

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Additionally, U.S. is reported to have delivered 45 cargo planes loaded with armaments to Israel since the outbreak of hostilities.

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In reaction to Hamas' attacks, the IDF is deploying its new Iron Beam anti-missile system ahead of its originally planned schedule.

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subsequently, including demographic data, and are the subject of their own article, so I don't see it as necessary for the lead.

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In infobox, it is also necessary to correct the information from "1,000+ militants killed" to "1,000+ killed". According to the

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and shows should also be removed, which are not evaluated by secondry sources. for eg: list of 7000 people died with their id.

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Unbiased Admins/Editors Please take a look into this and add this information in appropriate sections ,if relevant to the topic:

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As it stands, a reader who only sees the lead and the infobox would not know that there are any Israeli POWs. How can this be?

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Such a detailed account of the battle is exactly what's been needed here. I'm happy to have been able to share it with you.

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there is also the case of Iraqi Millitias also guided by Iran attacking US bases in Iraq, because of US support of Israel.

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