Talk:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria)

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reworded description". This is, in a tortured way, explaining to people like you why every single source acknowledges that this term is a proper noun in this context. There is inconsistency across the encyclopedia because common nouns and proper nouns are treated differently in English grammar: trying to establish consistency across the two either suggests that the person trying to do it is either not a native English speaker or has some extremely unique and creative ideas about the future of English grammar.

3066:(junior) is definitely off the table, no disambiguation is on the edge of the table with not much chance at being back on the table unless a few people appear and support it. There is a scattering of disambiguation options, and I am adding my one being (1980s premier), or some variation of that such as (1980s Premier of Victoria). I'll wait for comment on my proposal, on other people's proposals, and even any new proposals, and from there move to see what's the proposal that can easiest get a majority. 1685:. "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." Ill-chosen PTOPICs are guaranteed ways to accumulate bad links which are unlikely to be found and fixed - especially when, as here, two people have had the identical occupation. They also annoy readers who were looking for someone else. 60: 485: 464: 194: 495: 354: 271: 3585:

political career of the older John Cain was nowhere near as significant as that of the younger John Cain, which was really just a few years of a turbulent government, and who is almost always described as the older or senior John Cain whenever he is mentioned. We have ample evidence of page views and search engine data to support that the recently deceased John Cain is more notable, even before his death.

226: 659:. For the moment, I've moved the page to "John Cain (Junior)". It should really be at "John Cain (junior)", but there's an existing link there with some history, so it is going to take an admin to make that move. I don't think we need to include premier in the page name, because all of the other "John Cain"s are "Johnny Cane" or "John P Cane" or whatever - none of them are 'junior' or 'senior'. 132: 108: 281: 2992:. Using their birth date or whether they were the 30th premier is not optimal since readers are not going to already know that information until afterwards, but if they know anything about these two people they would know that one was premier in the 50s and one was premier in the 80s. This way we don't need to use three or more words to disambiguate between them, and it's far less arbitrary. 32: 402: 250: 77: 3898:"41st" is not a modifier. You can see that literally every source in existence treats this as a proper noun. This is just getting bizarre: I've never seen an instance on Knowledge (XXG) before where someone has decided that actual English grammar in all reliable source usage is wrong and decides that Knowledge (XXG) should use their own unique interpretation instead. 443: 1122:. Per the linked guide, "...while consensus has rejected the former title(s) (and no request to bring (them) back should be made lightly), there is no consensus for the title(s) actually chosen. If anyone objects to the closer's choice(s), they may make another move request immediately, hopefully to (their) final resting place(s)." 2577:

have a clue from either date title without reading the article that I'm getting the article on the person I'm actually looking for. The present title - if we're not going to move the son to the primary topic (which had at least as much supported as bloated titling) - is the most effective way of disambiguating father from son.

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and in any DAB its directly juxtaposed with the persons name. With all of this based solely on the US President/president it could only be applied to that position not until such time as there is an agreed linguistic change published by a reliable source for each english variant. Wikipeida is not to

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Perhaps some of you might want to pop by the MOS talk page Coffeeandcrumbs linked before - this situation is completely absurd and it's only happened because no more than five users with extremely strong opinions with no basis in sources have basically grabbed hold of this section of the MOS. We need

3056:

It could have been clearer what was going on if, instead of requesting the closer to revert the close and move, you had simply initiated a new RM proposal from the "interim" page name, with both "(junior)" and "" (no disambiguation) off the table as options. Remember that we are not just looking for

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I just want to clarify that the reason I didn't ping you and two others is because I've already noted that you oppose the no disambiguation option. I don't intend on drawing out the arguments any more, I just want to hear what the people who haven't said they oppose are leaning to and we can move on

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The short answer is because we don't have to, when we could just call him John Cain since this article has more page views than all other John Cains combined. I know the premiers of Victoria reasonably well but I also wouldn't know he was the 41st. Currently more people support the original proposal

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I'm not sure how that assists in finding consensus: the elongated date version has only as many supporters as the original proposal, and as many people strongly opposed to it. It seems pretty obvious, short of a sudden deluge of opinionated new people, that like the original proposal, it cannot find

1409:

Just to clarify, neither of these John Cains were known as senior or junior. The only John Cain to be known as junior is the grandson of the first John Cain and son of the second (and more notable) John Cain, and is not the subject of a Knowledge (XXG) article. The main problem with using birth year

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gets 50%-60% of the views (a bit less if spikes are excluded) so not overwhemingly primary. Link counts for article space, excluding redirects, transclusions and the DAB page, are: John Cain (junior) 98, John Cain (senior) 126, Johnny Cain 108, John Paul Cain 13, John Edward Cain 0, and John J Cain

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references this in the most opaque way possible when it says "When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a

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would be the next best option. Why is it that my proposal which you disagree with be the one to prompt this discussion to close? Several people have proposed separate disambiguations, why can't I? We can't close the discussion yet, there is unanimous agreement that the title should be changed, it's

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He was by far the most notable John Cain before his death as well. By the time he was premier he certainly was not known as "John Cain Junior" or "John Cain the Younger", with the thirty years between their premierships being far more than between the two American presidents named George Bush. The

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I agree that the more recent Premier John Cain was and is known as "John Cain" with no suffix, and the earlier Premier John Cain is often referred to as "John Cain senior". I'm not sure that one premier is more notable than the other, but the father John Cain has a natural and common disambiguator

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If we must go to longer-form disambiguation, I would much prefer this suggestion over the others, as it's the clearest - someone looking for John Cain Sr is unlikely to have any clear idea who any take on "John Cain (born 1882)" refers to without further clarification, but these names leave for no

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I think John Cain (Snr) has a birth certificate spelling the surname Caine. I tend to the view that these variations in spelling of surname are due to widespread C19th illiteracy or human transcription errors. Anyway I don't know of a reliable source that clarifies this matter and therefore Im not

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These edits do not follow a clearly written guideline, and the extremely passionate opinions on that talk page of largely one user (Eyer) with opinions about English grammar that are fundamentally not backed up by any reliable sources either in common usage or in authoritative style guides is not

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Your proposed suggestion is the longest, most unwieldy and most unclear suggestion of all the articles. I'm an uber-nerd of this stuff and even I wouldn't know that John Cain was born in 1882, but most people looking for the article would know that he was Premier of Victoria. I certainly wouldn't

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It may not be forever. At some stage, the moderately senior public servant who is presently known as John Cain Junior might get another promotion to the point that he is worthy of his own Knowledge (XXG) article. It's highly unlikely we would stick that at "John Cain Junior the second" due to his

1613:, father and son premiers of South Australia. The younger had a middle name, which proved useful, but he was also an "Australian politician", and one who served longer than his Dad. I'm not convinced the current solution is optimal. My suggestion for the Cains would also work for the Butlers. -- 1294:

At more than half the page views, this John Cain premier is clearly the primary topic. That would be higher if this was at "John Cain". "Johnny Cain" is not a John Cain, so if we only had one John Cain and one Johnny Cain, neither of those would need a disambiguation term. Over the last year this

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I suspect that's a view based on recentism. For much of his active time in politics he was publicly known as John Cain Junior. There were many people around who recalled his father's time in politics, and saw that as pretty significant, and if you look at what his father achieved, that's a valid

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frequently referred to as "John Cain Sr", but his son is not referred to as "John Cain Jr" outside of Knowledge (XXG). Reversing them makes no sense whatsoever - and as someone universally known as "John Cain", what his birth certificate says is completely irrelevant to our purposes. No reliable

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Is there really no support for any use of 1980s in the title? I think this does the job of distinguishing between the two, but also is something that people would know, unlike birth year or which number premier they were. Most of all I think we should avoid anything to do with "born YEAR", it's

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I agree with you (obviously), but 4(5 if the IP counts) in favour - 7 against/arguing for other names doesn't get us even close to a consensus to move, and this has been open for a while now and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that to drastically swing. Time to start trying to move this

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by actual sources dealing with this problem - there are certainly no reliable sources distinguishing from his son by "John Cain Australian politician born 1882". I would strongly suggest leaving Richard Layton Butler alone as well if we're going to go there, and renaming the father only (which,

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title being completely unsupported. By that matter, the article should be moved to John Cain at least for now, and the discussion does not have to end. I repeat that this person is simply not known as "junior", and we do not need to have symmetrical disambiguations for the father and the son!

1602:? This (a) avoids long-winded dabs, (b) distinguishes from any American politicians who would never be called "premier", (c) avoids the inappropriate Senior/Junior tags, (d) avoids having to put in years of birth, and (e) is closest to how Aussie/Victorian people would actually refer to them. 1871:

what sources say including birth certificate is very much relevant dab options, which are for our benefit if its known then a persons full name is used, if 34th/41st premier of victoria is too long, then MLA Northcote, MLA Bundora. As 34th/41st premier of victoria are their most significant

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I think people are stuck in this mindset that what must be done to the father must be done to the son. Victorians refer to the John Cain of the 1980s as John Cain≈, because very few people know of any other John Cain. The 1950s premier would be called something like "the older John Cain", or

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doesn't actually state that all offices should be decapitalised across the board, but its unclear language opens itself to the possibility that it might be interpreted in absurd ways and try to establish its own entirely unique take on English grammar re: proper nouns, so it clearly needs

1788:. The relevant criteria is, "highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought". When one topic gets more than half the page views, and no other topic gets near that many, it clearly qualifies. -- 3665:

I'm describing how these terms are spelled commonly. "Premier of Victoria" is a proper noun, while "premier" is a common noun, who may happen to the premier of Victoria. The way we have decided to disambiguate these premiers is to use their titles rather than their occupations.

685:. Thus "The Honourable john Cain Jr." is simply wrong as the form of address for a living person. The bracketed (junior) in the page title is appropriate to distinguish from his father - but that's all. In fact I cannot find any source that does not follow this convention. 2464:

You accept it but not support it? If I was greedy I would take that as approving the proposal, but it sounds like more of an abstention. I think all the possible arguments have already been made, I just want to get people on the record to see if there's enough to proceed.

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I'd just like to note here, given the years-long saga of referring to the two premiers both named John Cain. It appears that the son of the recently deceased John Cain goes by "John Cain" as well, and not John Cain Jr as some of us (myself included) thought he may.

751:. The problem with "junior" in any form is what to do with the next one. Since this article says that John's son John Cain has been appointed to a senior position, it is plausible that he will achieve Wikinotablity at some stage, and at least one article calls 3036:

There aren't any other John Cains who were premiers or anything similar to premier, so it's not ambiguous to anybody who would come across these John Cains. A person being "premier" is almost exclusively known to be the state head of government in Australia.

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Very well, but the other John Cains are far less notable than this John Cain who doesn't need a disambiguator. John Cain's son is known as "John Cain Jr.", the grandson of the elder John Cain, so it's not appropriate that this John Cain is known as junior.

1441:? If only one of them had been Premier, there wouldn't be an issue. Adding the number resolves the issue, while staying as close as possible to their actual title. As per several people, they were not known as Jr/Snr - Australians rarely are. 1872:

achievements and the reason why people would be looking for them then that is a significantly better DAB than snr, jnr, II, or I. John Cane should be the DAB page as thats the best way to help clarify for readers who they are looking for.

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We have been talking for almost a month. There is very little support for the current names of the two articles, which also provide no scope for naming of a possible future article on the third generation. The leading options appear to be

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I have a plan to bring this to a consensus, so I hope this is kept open for a bit more, but I am sure we are towards the end and I predict a change of the article title within a week. What it ends up being changed to is uncertain though.

3141:

Has anyone in this thread yet provided a deliberate link to the relevant Knowledge (XXG) guidelines? I tried to follow it, but by induction from looking at other page titles, rather than by starting from the guideline. Now I've found

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reading both articles, looking at sources and searching through the Victorian BDM registery. Firstly John Cain(1882) needs some more clarity and better sourcing on his name. BDM has no John Cain or Kane for 1882 though it has a

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John Cain is known mostly in the media as simply "John Cain", and he is by far more notable than anybody else known as John Cain, including his father. The real question would be about the title for the article about his father.

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You're treating proper nouns as common nouns, which is why your attempted usage contradicts all usage in reliable sources. That's grammatically incorrect: if it wasn't, someone else would have used it at some point in history.

3990:"accepted consensus" by any means. They're indefensible by any argument based in sources or usage in any sense and there's a reason that any argument has to fall back in on what two or three users slipped into the guideline. 2841:

Do you oppose John Cain without disambiguation then? As it stands the most popular proposal is without disambiguation but short of a majority, so we're seeing if that can get a majority when it's either yes or no to that.

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Yes, I Oppose moving to a primary topic. In terms of long-term significance, they both held an identical position so there's nothing to choose between them. The younger John may get more page views, but that's a case of

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might also not be able to get a consensus too. Of the seven participants who did not support the original proposal, I don't think all of them are against the proposal but rather that they prefer their own. I don't think

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Where is the evidence that JOBTITLES is CONSENSUS. The writing quality is an odd measure of consensus. That writing quality would be determined by the same MOS aficionados who are all over the many MOS pages.

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I think all the arguments and counter-arguments have been made well. It's currently 7 in favour and 6 explicitly against, with 3 participants who supported other proposals yet to say if they are for or against.

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sources using the capitalisation "41st premier of Victoria". Literally every single source using that phrase on the internet capitalises Premier. People have gone a bit nuts with interpreting that dot point in

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I agree with SmokeyJoe about "premier" (lowercase) - either "politician" or "Premier of Victoria", with a preference for "Premier of Victoria" because the birthdate versions are the worst possible outcome.

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highly ambiguous, these locally relevant only politicians are misrecognizable as "junior" and "senior", that is insufficient disambiguation. For both, "Premier of Victoria" is their strongest claim of

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In the last 30 days, 1100 page views for this John Cain, 400 for his father. The other John Cains use their middle names or middle initials and have far fewer page views than either premier John Cain.

4226: 1521:. Birth dates are our usual disambiguator in these circumstances. I think the "Australian" is needed if we're going to do this though, as there are also two American politicians by this name. -- 590:

Why on Earth is John Cain given the title "John Cain II"? He has never been known by this title, which is not Australian usage. (I live in the State of Victoria where John Cain was Premier.)

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is that circumstances will change to make that redundant. The younger John Cain will always be a more recent premier than his father, but he is also considered more notable regardless of that.

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That's how consensus works. It's not my preferred choice, but I think it's better than the status quo, hence I consent to the original proposal in the absence of support for a better option. --

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John Cain had 13,000 of the 20,000 views for all John Cains, or out of 23,500 for John Cains including Johnny Cain. After all, this is a historically recent and long serving state premier.

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That we now have "every source on the internet and the Cambridge Australian English style guide" versus "Knowledge (XXG) user Coffeeandcrumbs" is really clarifying the need to sort out

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I'm willing to end the initial proposal and move to 34th and 41st Premier of Victoria. The discussion can continue afterwards if there are people who want it to be given another title.

3127:

I agree it's more suited to "1980s premier" but it's still when they were most notable as politicians. The older John Cain's last government was by far more notable than the other two.

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tells me we have at least 5 articles on similarly named men, three of whom are/were Americans. Given this, tags like "senior" or "II" for the Australian Cains won't do. In my opinion:

3702:

If our MOS is telling people to change titles to language that is grammatically incorrect and contradicted by 100% of sources, then it simply needs to be changed. This is ridiculous.

3113:

The "1980s" and "1950s" ones are both plain inaccurate: two of Cain Sr's three governments were not even in the 1950s, and Cain Jr was elected in the 1970s and retired in the 1990s.

1481:

If we must disambiguate this one (and I don't think we should), then (junior) does the job in distinguishing from his father. The double-or-triple length disambiguators add nothing.

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65% is at least 25% short of the number I consider the minimum to define a PTOPIC. The hidden damage to the encyclopaedia caused by bad links to ill-chosen PTOPICs is unknowable.

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is so we can have a consistent style across the entire encyclopedia. Right now, there is inconsistency everywhere. You are welcome to suggest a change to your preferred style at

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Note that we never usually use this form of disambiguation. We pretty much always use "Name (occupation, born xxxx)". We don't use date ranges or dates without an occupation. --

1370:. Either way, the current disambiguation is very nonstandard, confusing, and implausible (implying that they are best known for being a "junior" and a "senior", respectively).. – 392: 4236: 3680:

If it was only "(Premier of Victoria)" that would be true. But JOBTITLES is unambiguous about this. The phrase "41st premier of Victoria" should be de-capped per our MOS. ---

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with no disambiguation? You indicated preference for a different proposal, but no proposal has a majority. The undisambiguated option is the closest to a majority. Thank you.

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per common usage. In prose it would be "41st premier of Victoria", but as a title it's "41st Premier of Victoria". However, we should change the title of this article to

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should remain a disambiguation page, but neither of the premiers should be "senior" or "junior" in any form since they were never known as that in their own lifetimes.

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Your tone is getting a little nasty. Please assume good faith. It has been made abundantly clear to me that the argument I am making here is the accepted consensus at

1252: 1862: 1812:, then John Cain and John Cain Jnr would fit the sequence... At the moment the name change is uncited with Kane in the info box and no explanation in the article... 4115: 2058: 667: 2394:

without disambiguation? The main reason for which being that it has more than half the views for all John Cains, but this has been thoroughly discussed already.

2187:, should be carried out when the current situation is supported by approximately nobody. Maybe someone should make an article about his son to really push this. 1701:. That is the standard form of disambiguator in cases like this. There is no need to specify the country, because no other politicians were born in those years. 4271: 2250:

The 41st premier is definitely the primary topic of "John Cain" though. The problem here is that neither of these premiers are commonly known by those numbers.

2942:. I see the page move was reverted, and the original move proposal revised and relisted, rather than leaving it closed and initiating an immediate new RM. My 344: 3599:

I would still argue that's a recentism argument. Of course people in more recent years have talked more about the more recent John Cain. That's human nature.

3214:

The wording "xxth Premier of Victoria" seems perfectly fine for people wanting to find the right subject. Let us use that for our disambiguation tags. --

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to add "Jr." following Cain's name in the lede and in the infobox. Like most Australians who share a parent's name, Cain does not style himself John Cain

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and not block that move if it is otherwise supported. I would still prefer disambiguated pagenames so that it is easier to detect misdirected links. --

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consensus. So why not respond to the consensus proposal, which has the same amount of support as either and only one person who's come out against it?

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which makes it easy to name the next generation when needed. Clearly ", senior" and ", junior" or "Sr" and "Jr" are not consistent with the sources. --

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As far as I know, neither of the Thomas Playford premiers of South Australia were known by senior, junior or any other suffix either. The articles are

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level.

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makes clear when it explicitly tells you you can't change "President Trump" to "president Trump". In actual usage, they are frequently proper nouns:

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than any other proposal, so we'll see if enough of those who haven't said they oppose will approve of the no disambiguation proposal over nothing.

4286: 4266: 4241: 3158:, similar to my footballers example. We could have stopped sooner if they weren't both Labor premiers of Victoria (using their party or state). -- 2959: 164: 4301: 1606: 2562:. There is plenty of precedent for using a simple disambiguator with date of birth. And there seems to be reasonable support for it above. -- 1203:

Swapping disambiguation page with almost 6 entries to assign primary topic name is not uncontroversial, I am moving it here to be discussed. –

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though give that issue are likely to arise in the future over John Cain(jnr), and are currently confused with two related people externally

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from there. As for recentism, his notability is purely within the 1980s, was premier for longer, and was more influential than his father.

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You're right, the combined views being more than half, it is primary topic. Changing my !vote to support (same contributor, different IP)

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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a majority vote. As it is, we are just going round the same mulberry bush again, hoping to find something different on the other side. --

2433:. Otherwise we will be back where we were before, everyone going in their own direction. Overall there is no support for the status quo. 916:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

159:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 4256: 4246: 4221: 2390:

supported their own proposals. There is no consensus for any proposal, but would any of you support the proposal to move the article to

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I initially planned on doing this at the editors' respective talk pages, but I don't want to be suspected of manipulating a discussion.

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without disambiguation? I've tallied up all the names and this proposal is the closest to a consensus, but it's still not close to one.

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as well. Given this is our standard disambiguation as laid out in the guidelines, I'm not sure why we're continuing to debate this. --

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

508: 469: 3719:, there is nothing "grammatically incorrect" about "41st premier of Victoria". It is a stylistic choice, and the reason we have a 2297: 2293: 1985: 1981: 1567: 1563: 1518: 1514: 2292:

for the second John Cain premier (with no consensus on any name for the article about his father), as the original proposal, or

969:, but please consider whether those titles would be able to gain consensus over the new titles before initiating a new request. 1176: 1127: 706:, a series of "anon IP" addresses now do the same, in addition to attempting to delete this discussion, always without comment 4124:. I think they collectively are hypercorrectors, revisionist, and honestly believe that an external style guide is a source. — 813: 88: 3038: 2016:

As it stands, there are too many options on the table for a clear consensus to have formed around one. Personally, I think

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Directly juxtaposed with the person's name, such words begin with a capital letter (President Obama, not president Obama)

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which allows for future articles for others. I have updated my !vote above to this option to assist finding consensus. --

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per the suggestion above. It's neat, recognisable, and precise. I don't think there's a primary topic here so moving to

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It’s so exhausting to argue with them in one of theIf MOS subcaves. Google ngram s doesn’t support their lede example

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belongs in this group. When modified by "41st", it meets the conditions described in the examples to be de-capped. ---

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unlike in this case, actually makes no sense at all, because Richard Layton Butler was also an Australian politician).

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in 1882 father unknown... If we can clarify his former surname and when it was changed that would be the ideal dab

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You're making up your own definition and criteria for primary topic, contrary to community consensus as reflected at

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

2988: 2982: 1639:? Most importantly we do not need symmetry between the titles of the first John Cain and the second John Cain. 1636: 1385: 1281: 758:. Footballer disambiguation seems to be by birth year if they played for/in the same country. I suggest either 4198: 3640: 3330: 3282: 917: 94: 4107: 3991: 3950: 3899: 3860: 3756: 3716: 3703: 3527: 3500: 3430: 3168: 3150:

seems to have a bunch of progressively more complex guidance. I think by the fourth or fifth rule, we get to

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without disambiguation, or not. The people I notified supported other measures but did not say they opposed

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Please let this RM close, and then spend more time thinking about it before launching a fresh proposal. --

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I agree with Onetwothreeip. I don't understand the urge to default to very long-winded disambiguation when

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indefinitely. Even though my preferred option is the same as yours, I think that would be a poor outcome.

801: 377: 3964: 3946: 3855: 3851: 3751: 3614: 3523: 3385: 3013:? Not good enough, this is ambiguous. Either "politician" or "Premier of Victoria", not just "premier". 2730: 2697: 2451:

moving it to "John Cain". I will accept that page name is (slightly) better than the current one so will

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won't pass. I would like to propose a solution that is both short and something that people would know,

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this page, but no consensus on what title to which it should be moved, as found in the earlier close by

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Official titles and offices are capitalised whenever they are used in reference to a particular holder

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style of article naming is like footballers: "Firstname Lastname ( politician, born Year)" for example

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has been known as Bob Katter Jr., but his name is fortunately different to his father Robert Katter.

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is just simply false. I wish we could get more opinions. Would you be O.K. with placing a notice at

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We have no need to get to the fourth or fifth rule because the second rule does a better job of it.

3162: 3075: 3061: 3051: 3031: 3001: 2966: 2922: 2907: 2890: 2869: 2851: 2836: 2815: 2762: 2748: 2724: 2709: 2690: 2672: 2651: 2607: 2571: 2535: 2517: 2483: 2474: 2459: 2442: 2420: 2403: 2348: 2304: 2289: 2273: 2259: 2241: 2196: 2081: 2043: 2009: 1992: 1970: 1956: 1935: 1917: 1841: 1819: 1795: 1772: 1756: 1735: 1710: 1648: 1621: 1583: 1552: 1530: 1506: 1467: 1445: 1419: 1396: 1349: 1318: 1304: 1285: 1231: 1212: 1188: 1159: 1057: 1004:– By far the most notable person with the name "John Cain" and is not known as "junior", "II", etc. 978: 893: 782: 733: 715: 694: 663: 656: 642: 599: 580: 423: 76: 4171: 4129: 4076: 4060: 4010: 3429:

Usually capitalised in common usage, we base our usage on the sources instead of our own opinions.

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The idea that it should be capitalized in the title and de-capped in prose directly contradicts

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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get a consensus, and BD2412 seems like the least unwieldy disambiguation we're going to get.

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A news item involving John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s

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https://web.archive.org/web/20041221035156/http://scribepub.com.au/Catalogue/OffCourse.html

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view. I'd be interested to know when you think John Cain the Younger became more notable.

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I retract my statement. It is undoubtedly a proper noun denoting a title in this context.

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No support from me. His term as premier continued till the latter part of 1990, so ...

3023: 2899: 2882: 2861: 2828: 2807: 2511: 2414: 2387: 1873: 1813: 830:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 817: 17: 2700:. I suggest we pick one of the two options for disambiguating the two and move on. — 870:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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Playford was the fifth Thomas Playford and the fourth to have lived in South Australia

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according to The Cambridge, Australian English style guide (ISBN 0521576342) pg112,

3099:? Because I think that's even better. As long as it's not birthdate or Xth Premier. 2958:(whose birth name was William and historical parliamentary record uses William) and 3343: 2701: 2265: 2233: 1927: 1833: 1498: 1363: 1268: 763: 707: 686: 627: 1897:

I think I chimed in to a superseded conversation above with most of my rationale.

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the original proposal. I thought that was long since dead in the water. --

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would get a consensus either, as in a majority of participants, and possibly

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so might be getting close to needing to be disambiguated from his father. --

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highly ambiguous". Definitely oppose John Cain without disambiguation. --

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are acceptable (5/10), but score way lower in terms of recognisability. --

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alone as the title for this article is the most favoured, with the current

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as a possible future article for the Solicitor for Public Prosecutions) or

747:(there are not articles for numbers I or III). The latter article includes 1681:. He only gets 53% of the pageviews, and that is nowhere near to define a 2976:: Unless there is a drastic change, the proposal to move this article to 2733:

case, but I just don't find the numbers convincing for a primary topic.

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Over the last year it's 65% of the total page views for all John Cains.

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Since there is no clarity about a middle name for disambiguation then

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and are applying it in contexts that defy usage in all other sources.

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is the better outcome. With John Cain being the disambiguation page.

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is that he is not particularly associated with the year of his birth.

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any article other than the disambig page being the primary topic for

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father being John Cain Junior in Knowledge (XXG)-world. He's already

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Knowledge (XXG):Requested_moves/Technical_requests#Technical_requests

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once and for all so no one can ever mangle things this badly again.

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John Cain (junior) (born 1931), 41st Premier of Victoria, Australia.

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John Cain (senior) (1882–1957), 34th Premier of Victoria, Australia

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colloquial disambiguations such as "1980s premier". Also, what is

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should take you to the disambiguation page that should be titled

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The propriety of an asserted primary topic is not obvious to me.

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I support that John Cain(junior) be moved to more appropriate DAB

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I can live with that suggestion as well. Anything but the current

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This is one of the strangest suggestions yet: John Cain (senior)

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http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/re-member/bioregfull.cfm?mid=941

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Further to this discussion and following three recent edits by

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Surely something that is supported by a plurality of editors,

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I don't think we should go a long form disambiguation at all.

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I double-checked after Tim's comment and there are literally

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this

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Mid-importance biography (politics and government) articles

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For now I'm just looking if people would support a move to

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I'll take that as you oppose moving to no disambiguation.

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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as he is by far the most notable person with this name.

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John Cain (senior) is often referred to as John Cain Sr"

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Strongly oppose any shift to long-winded disambiguation.

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Reopened 00:28, 6 February 2019 (UTC) – previous close:

51: 4163:, its the reporter after the fact is reliably sourced 301:, which aims to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of 4185:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

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B-Class biography (politics and government) articles

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

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http://www.scribepub.com.au/Catalogue/OffCourse.html

512:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 840:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 655:Parliament of Victoria uses "Cain, John (junior)". 4201:. No further edits should be made to this section. 3401:Nixon was the 37th president of the United States. 3285:. No further edits should be made to this section. 4106:a few people to speak up so this nonsense stops. 937:and again in accordance with the previous close, 4148:Knowledge (XXG):Manual_of_Style#Titles_of_people 3203:, you see the first 2 people listed as follows: 3146:, in particular the section "Disambiguating" at 2335:, would you support this article being moved to 3392:, "premier" should be de-capped because it is " 3384:– Disambiguators are written in wiki-voice and 2130:will get a consensus, but that's not up to me. 1980:following discussion, my preference is now for 1726:is rightfully not considered a John Cain here. 3921:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Biography 3725:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Biography 826:This message was posted before February 2018. 605:I've come here to make exactly the same point. 309:. If you would like to participate, visit the 1076:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 8: 4277:High-importance Australian politics articles 2298:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1882) 2294:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1931) 1986:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1882) 1982:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1931) 1605:Btw, there is almost a similar problem with 1568:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1882) 1564:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1931) 1519:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1882) 1515:John Cain (Australian politician, born 1931) 4237:Politics and government work group articles 3154:with the example being poker players named 3144:Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (people) 2550:. I reiterate, why are we not simply using 2501:I Oppose moving John Cain(jnr) to John Cain 2001:I have put a note about this discussion on 1853:source refers to him as "John Cain(Kane)". 3850:They are not necessarily common nouns, as 3319:The following is a closed discussion of a 2954:. Is that any more or less confusing than 2003:talk:John Cain (senior)#Page move proposed 906:The following is a closed discussion of a 796:I have just modified one external link on 458: 220: 102: 4142:Its laughable if they werent so serious, 3399:". JOBTITLES gives the relevant example " 2635:Would you approve of this page moving to 953:at this time. The disambiguation page is 4282:WikiProject Australian politics articles 4146:says use source usage and local styles, 1259:Oppose move over the disambiguation page 3774:Offices, titles, and positions such as 2960:William Campbell (Victorian politician) 2144:If you're right, then we're stuck with 460: 222: 104: 74: 3912: 3773: 3400: 3393: 3182:completely unnecessary and unnatural. 1607:Richard Butler (Australian politician) 1332:per 62.165.227.157, but would support 748: 204:the politics and government work group 3403:" Note "president" is de-capped. --- 3039:John Cain (1980s Premier of Victoria) 2952:Bill Campbell (footballer, born 1904) 2948:Bill Campbell (footballer, born 1883) 2560:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 1940:It works for me too, but I'd make it 1358:should be correspondingly renamed to 319:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Australia 177:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 4272:B-Class Australian politics articles 4217:Knowledge (XXG) In the news articles 3378:John Cain (34th premier of Victoria) 3373:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 3367:John Cain (41st premier of Victoria) 3362:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 3338:The result of the move request was: 2956:Bill Campbell (Victorian politician) 2786:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 2782:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 2380:John Cain (XXth Premier of Victoria) 2225:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 2218:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 2026:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 2022:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 1631:something hard to put into a title. 1439:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 1435:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 1115:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 1101:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 1067:The following discussion is closed. 951:John Cain (34th Premier of Victoria) 943:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 925:The result of the move request was: 702:Further to the edits by former user 526:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Politics 506:This article is within the scope of 293:John Cain (41st Premier of Victoria) 153:This article is within the scope of 93:It is of interest to the following 2117:I don't think anything other than 1926:That suggestion works for me too. 409:Need help improving this article? 25: 4262:Mid-importance Melbourne articles 4252:Low-importance Australia articles 3152:John Cain (politician, born YYYY) 2825:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 2821:John Cain (politician, 1882-1957) 2556:John Cain (politician, born 1882) 2552:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 2411:John Cain (politician, born XXXX) 2378:supported moving this article to 2368:John Cain (politician, born XXXX) 2366:supported moving this article to 2172:Solicitor for Public Prosecutions 1698:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 1694:John Cain (politician, born 1882) 1541:John Cain (politician, born 1882) 1537:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 1360:John Cain (politician, born 1882) 1334:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 967:John Cain (politician, born 1931) 963:John Cain (politician, born 1882) 800:. Please take a moment to review 4297:Mid-importance politics articles 1165:The discussion above is closed. 493: 483: 462: 441: 279: 269: 255: 248: 224: 140: 130: 106: 75: 30: 3312:Requested move 25 December 2019 2827:are also acceptable. 7/10. -- 1126:to editors for your input, and 546:This article has been rated as 388:WikiProject Australian politics 339:This article has been rated as 4287:WikiProject Australia articles 4267:WikiProject Melbourne articles 4242:WikiProject Biography articles 1175:Moved from technical request ( 1012:) 00:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 437:can be contacted via email to 322:Template:WikiProject Australia 180:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 4302:WikiProject Politics articles 4175:07:15, 30 December 2019 (UTC) 4134:12:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 4116:11:33, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 4081:11:30, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 4064:09:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 4015:11:30, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 4000:11:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3985:11:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3959:11:15, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3941:09:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3908:09:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3894:08:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3874:is not preceded by a modifier 3869:08:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3846:08:33, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3765:08:27, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3745:08:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3712:08:17, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3698:07:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3676:00:16, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3661:23:49, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3627:11:31, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3609:03:53, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3595:02:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3580:02:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3559:23:45, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3536:10:35, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3513:10:28, 28 December 2019 (UTC) 3490:06:31, 29 December 2019 (UTC) 3466:15:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC) 3439:12:10, 25 December 2019 (UTC) 3421:01:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC) 3307:00:06, 23 December 2019 (UTC) 3237:01:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC) 979:19:54, 13 February 2019 (UTC) 899:Requested move 9 January 2019 894:09:06, 27 November 2017 (UTC) 529:Template:WikiProject Politics 520:and see a list of open tasks. 449:for non-editorial assistance. 415:National Library of Australia 385:This article is supported by 361:This article is supported by 201:This article is supported by 3223:22:44, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3192:22:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3177:10:09, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3163:09:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3137:08:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3123:08:22, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3109:08:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3097:John Cain (1980s politician) 3091:08:03, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3076:07:24, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3062:05:56, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3052:05:38, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3042:simply a matter of to what. 3032:04:28, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 3002:03:40, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2967:03:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2923:03:07, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2908:02:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2891:02:56, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2870:02:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2852:02:37, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2837:02:28, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2816:02:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC) 2763:22:11, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2749:21:45, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2725:21:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2710:21:27, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2691:21:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2673:21:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2652:20:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2608:20:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2587:18:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2572:14:04, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 2536:19:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2518:04:01, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2484:03:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2475:02:41, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2460:02:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2443:00:04, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 2421:23:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2404:22:46, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2349:22:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2320:22:13, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2305:22:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2274:20:55, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 2260:02:09, 30 January 2019 (UTC) 2242:14:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 2232:is off the table. Thanks — 2197:22:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 2179:11:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC) 2162:23:42, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2140:23:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2101:21:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2082:21:06, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2059:15:16, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2044:15:08, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 2010:06:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 1993:22:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1971:12:45, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 1957:21:29, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 1936:02:35, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 1918:12:17, 19 January 2019 (UTC) 1880:03:37, 19 January 2019 (UTC) 1863:21:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1842:12:20, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1820:10:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC) 1796:01:20, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 1773:01:20, 16 January 2019 (UTC) 1757:07:48, 13 January 2019 (UTC) 1736:01:19, 13 January 2019 (UTC) 1711:13:58, 10 January 2019 (UTC) 1553:12:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 1497:as per nominator rationale. 1319:10:45, 10 January 2019 (UTC) 1243:as per nominator rationale. 1160:14:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC) 1058:00:28, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1034:15:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC) 783:11:51, 19 January 2019 (UTC) 716:06:52, 23 October 2018 (UTC) 664:10:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 643:03:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC) 165:contribute to the discussion 4071:. Flagrant MOS overreach. — 3352:12:52, 1 January 2020 (UTC) 2223:move the senior article to 1668:21:38, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1649:20:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1622:19:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1584:19:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1535:Although I'd be happy with 1531:14:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1507:12:01, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1468:20:41, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1446:11:29, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1420:09:32, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1397:08:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1350:08:30, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1305:09:32, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1286:08:01, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1269:page view stats for the six 1253:06:31, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1232:05:42, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1213:05:00, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 1189:05:00, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 734:00:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC) 632:John Cain, junior (premier) 623:John Cain, senior (premier) 581:17:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC) 434:Wikimedia Australia chapter 4318: 4257:B-Class Melbourne articles 4247:B-Class Australia articles 4222:B-Class biography articles 2879:John Cain (disambiguation) 2729:I agree that this isn't a 2526:whereas his son does not. 999:John Cain (disambiguation) 857:(last update: 5 June 2024) 793:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 552:project's importance scale 345:project's importance scale 4292:B-Class politics articles 3394:Modified ... denoting an 2989:John Cain (1950s premier) 2983:John Cain (1980s premier) 1637:John Cain (older premier) 695:23:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC) 666:PS. Request now pending: 600:08:11, 27 July 2010 (UTC) 545: 478: 442: 430: 408: 384: 360: 338: 264: 200: 125: 101: 4191:Please do not modify it. 3913:"41st" is not a modifier 3326:Please do not modify it. 3275:Please do not modify it. 1903:I prefer something like 1679:Oppose move to John Cain 1167:Please do not modify it. 1070:Please do not modify it. 913:Please do not modify it. 572:WikiProject class rating 307:Australia-related topics 3812:chief financial officer 2128:John Cain (Xth premier) 2087:towards something that 1832:sure it helps us here. 1599:John Cain (premier, II) 789:External links modified 295:is within the scope of 119:Politics and Government 18:Talk:John Cain (junior) 3501:User:The Drover's Wife 2498:just to be clear then 1593:John Cain (premier, I) 427: 405: 381: 357: 197: 83:This article is rated 64: 2804:John Cain (born 1931) 2800:John Cain (1882–1957) 1946:John Cain (born 1931) 1942:John Cain (1882-1957) 1909:John Cain (born 1931) 1905:John Cain (born 1882) 1611:Richard Layton Butler 1570:, per Necrothesp. 1454:For what it's worth, 776:John Cain (born 1931) 772:John Cain (born 1882) 426: 404: 380: 364:WikiProject Melbourne 356: 298:WikiProject Australia 196: 156:WikiProject Biography 87:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 62: 4159:the cause of change 4150:specifically states 838:regular verification 509:WikiProject Politics 933:. Therefore, under 828:After February 2018 3816:executive director 2150:John Cain (senior) 2146:John Cain (junior) 2069:John Cain (junior) 1356:John Cain (senior) 1273:John Cain (junior) 1106:John Cain (senior) 1090:John Cain (junior) 986:John Cain (junior) 957:at this time. Per 947:John Cain (senior) 882:InternetArchiveBot 833:InternetArchiveBot 798:John Cain (junior) 745:Thomas Playford IV 741:Thomas Playford II 619:John Cain (senior) 428: 406: 382: 358: 325:Australia articles 198: 183:biography articles 89:content assessment 65: 4108:The Drover's Wife 3992:The Drover's Wife 3951:The Drover's Wife 3900:The Drover's Wife 3861:The Drover's Wife 3757:The Drover's Wife 3717:The Drover's Wife 3704:The Drover's Wife 3528:The Drover's Wife 3431:The Drover's Wife 3386:use sentence case 3169:The Drover's Wife 3115:The Drover's Wife 3083:The Drover's Wife 2579:The Drover's Wife 2312:The Drover's Wife 2154:The Drover's Wife 2093:The Drover's Wife 2051:The Drover's Wife 1855:The Drover's Wife 1692:support moves to 1660:The Drover's Wife 1582: 1483:The Drover's Wife 1348: 1245:The Drover's Wife 1191: 1162: 1157: 1143: 1060: 1056: 1035: 977: 927:consensus to move 858: 566: 565: 562: 561: 558: 557: 532:politics articles 457: 456: 453: 452: 219: 218: 215: 214: 69: 68: 16:(Redirected from 4309: 4104: 4101:Timrollpickering 3977: 3971: 3933: 3927: 3886: 3880: 3838: 3832: 3737: 3731: 3690: 3684: 3653: 3647: 3505:Timrollpickering 3487: 3482: 3477: 3463: 3458: 3453: 3413: 3407: 3380: 3369: 3328: 3218: 2789:(7.5/10). With 2741: 2665: 2634: 2542:2nd-relist break 2365: 2036: 2020:'s proposal for 2012: 1952: 1746: 1721: 1617: 1574: 1393: 1388: 1381: 1378: 1375: 1340: 1202: 1174: 1158: 1153: 1149: 1133: 1128:Happy Publishing 1072: 1052: 1048: 1036: 1027: 1013: 973: 959:WP:THREEOUTCOMES 935:WP:THREEOUTCOMES 915: 892: 883: 856: 855: 834: 638: 534: 533: 530: 527: 524: 503: 498: 497: 487: 480: 479: 474: 466: 459: 448: 447:wikimedia.org.au 446: 445: 444: 327: 326: 323: 320: 317: 289: 287:Australia portal 284: 283: 282: 273: 266: 265: 260: 259: 258: 253: 252: 251: 246: 243: 228: 221: 185: 184: 181: 178: 175: 161:join the project 150: 148:Biography portal 145: 144: 143: 134: 127: 126: 121: 110: 103: 86: 80: 79: 71: 54: 52:24 December 2019 34: 27: 21: 4317: 4316: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4308: 4307: 4306: 4207: 4206: 4205: 4086: 3981:Coffeeandcrumbs 3975: 3969: 3937:Coffeeandcrumbs 3931: 3925: 3890:Coffeeandcrumbs 3884: 3878: 3842:Coffeeandcrumbs 3836: 3830: 3755:clarification. 3741:Coffeeandcrumbs 3735: 3729: 3721:Manual of Style 3694:Coffeeandcrumbs 3688: 3682: 3657:Coffeeandcrumbs 3651: 3645: 3485: 3478: 3473: 3461: 3454: 3449: 3417:Coffeeandcrumbs 3411: 3405: 3376: 3365: 3324: 3314: 3294: 3292:John Cain names 3289: 3216: 2735: 2659: 2616: 2544: 2361: 2030: 2000: 1950: 1810:John Cain(Kane) 1763:WP:PRIMARYTOPIC 1740: 1715: 1615: 1391: 1386: 1379: 1376: 1373: 1196: 1171: 1170: 1148:Paine Ellsworth 1147: 1086: 1068: 1047:Paine Ellsworth 1046: 1021: 931:Paine Ellsworth 911: 901: 886: 881: 849: 842:have permission 832: 806:this simple FaQ 791: 755:"John Cain Jr." 636: 588: 574: 531: 528: 525: 522: 521: 501:Politics portal 499: 492: 472: 440: 438: 411:Ask a Librarian 393:High-importance 324: 321: 318: 315: 314: 285: 280: 278: 254: 247: 244: 234: 182: 179: 176: 173: 172: 146: 141: 139: 116: 84: 63:Knowledge (XXG) 50: 23: 22: 15: 12: 11: 5: 4315: 4313: 4305: 4304: 4299: 4294: 4289: 4284: 4279: 4274: 4269: 4264: 4259: 4254: 4249: 4244: 4239: 4234: 4229: 4224: 4219: 4209: 4208: 4204: 4203: 4187:requested move 4181: 4180: 4179: 4178: 4177: 4154:, contrary to 4137: 4136: 4084: 4083: 4066: 4046: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4040: 4039: 4038: 4037: 4036: 4035: 4034: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4028: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 4021: 4020: 4019: 4018: 4017: 4002: 3808:prime minister 3641:WP:TITLEFORMAT 3637: 3636: 3635: 3634: 3633: 3632: 3631: 3630: 3629: 3562: 3561: 3540: 3539: 3538: 3494: 3493: 3492: 3441: 3382: 3381: 3370: 3357: 3355: 3336: 3335: 3321:requested move 3315: 3313: 3310: 3293: 3290: 3288: 3287: 3271:requested move 3265: 3264: 3263: 3262: 3261: 3260: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3256: 3255: 3254: 3253: 3252: 3251: 3250: 3249: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3244: 3243: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3212: 3211: 3210: 3207: 3197: 3179: 3017: 3016: 3015: 3014: 2970: 2969: 2932: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2893: 2872: 2818: 2796: 2795: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2769: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2765: 2676: 2675: 2615: 2613: 2612: 2611: 2610: 2592: 2591: 2590: 2589: 2543: 2540: 2539: 2538: 2520: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2491: 2490: 2489: 2488: 2487: 2486: 2354: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2278: 2277: 2276: 2245: 2244: 2212: 2211: 2210: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2061: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1975: 1974: 1973: 1938: 1921: 1920: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1887: 1886: 1885: 1884: 1883: 1882: 1866: 1865: 1823: 1822: 1798: 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1687: 1686: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1672: 1671: 1670: 1625: 1624: 1603: 1587: 1586: 1557: 1556: 1555: 1509: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1473: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1449: 1448: 1427: 1426: 1425: 1424: 1423: 1422: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1354:In that case, 1326: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1322: 1321: 1289: 1288: 1278:62.165.227.157 1255: 1237: 1236: 1235: 1234: 1216: 1215: 1193: 1192: 1164: 1085: 1084: 1083: 1082: 1081: 1063: 1062: 1002: 1001: 992: 982: 923: 922: 908:requested move 902: 900: 897: 876: 875: 868: 821: 820: 812:Added archive 790: 787: 786: 785: 721: 720: 719: 718: 675: 674: 673: 672: 671: 670: 648: 647: 646: 645: 630:should become 625: 621:should become 613: 612: 606: 587: 584: 578:BetacommandBot 573: 570: 568: 564: 563: 560: 559: 556: 555: 548:Mid-importance 544: 538: 537: 535: 518:the discussion 505: 504: 488: 476: 475: 473:Mid‑importance 467: 455: 454: 451: 450: 429: 419: 418: 407: 397: 396: 383: 373: 372: 369:Mid-importance 359: 349: 348: 341:Low-importance 337: 331: 330: 328: 291: 290: 274: 262: 261: 245:Low‑importance 229: 217: 216: 213: 212: 209:Mid-importance 199: 189: 188: 186: 152: 151: 135: 123: 122: 111: 99: 98: 92: 81: 67: 66: 56: 35: 24: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4314: 4303: 4300: 4298: 4295: 4293: 4290: 4288: 4285: 4283: 4280: 4278: 4275: 4273: 4270: 4268: 4265: 4263: 4260: 4258: 4255: 4253: 4250: 4248: 4245: 4243: 4240: 4238: 4235: 4233: 4230: 4228: 4225: 4223: 4220: 4218: 4215: 4214: 4212: 4202: 4200: 4196: 4192: 4188: 4183: 4182: 4176: 4173: 4170: 4166: 4162: 4157: 4153: 4149: 4145: 4141: 4140: 4139: 4138: 4135: 4131: 4127: 4123: 4120: 4119: 4118: 4117: 4113: 4109: 4102: 4098: 4097:Onetwothreeip 4094: 4090: 4082: 4078: 4074: 4070: 4067: 4065: 4062: 4059: 4055: 4051: 4048: 4047: 4016: 4012: 4008: 4003: 4001: 3997: 3993: 3988: 3987: 3986: 3982: 3978: 3972: 3966: 3962: 3961: 3960: 3956: 3952: 3948: 3944: 3943: 3942: 3938: 3934: 3928: 3922: 3918: 3914: 3911: 3910: 3909: 3905: 3901: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3891: 3887: 3881: 3875: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3866: 3862: 3857: 3853: 3849: 3848: 3847: 3843: 3839: 3833: 3827: 3823: 3821: 3817: 3813: 3809: 3805: 3801: 3797: 3793: 3789: 3785: 3781: 3777: 3771: 3770:MOS:JOBTITLES 3768: 3767: 3766: 3762: 3758: 3753: 3748: 3747: 3746: 3742: 3738: 3732: 3726: 3722: 3718: 3715: 3714: 3713: 3709: 3705: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3695: 3691: 3685: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3673: 3669: 3668:Onetwothreeip 3664: 3663: 3662: 3658: 3654: 3648: 3642: 3638: 3628: 3624: 3620: 3619:Onetwothreeip 3616: 3613:The point of 3612: 3611: 3610: 3606: 3602: 3598: 3597: 3596: 3592: 3588: 3587:Onetwothreeip 3583: 3582: 3581: 3577: 3573: 3568: 3567: 3566: 3565: 3564: 3563: 3560: 3556: 3552: 3551:Onetwothreeip 3548: 3544: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3525: 3520: 3516: 3515: 3514: 3510: 3506: 3502: 3498: 3495: 3491: 3488: 3483: 3481: 3476: 3470: 3469: 3468: 3467: 3464: 3459: 3457: 3452: 3446: 3442: 3440: 3436: 3432: 3428: 3425: 3424: 3423: 3422: 3418: 3414: 3408: 3402: 3398: 3397: 3391: 3390:MOS:JOBTITLES 3387: 3379: 3374: 3371: 3368: 3363: 3360: 3359: 3358: 3354: 3353: 3349: 3345: 3341: 3334: 3332: 3327: 3322: 3317: 3316: 3311: 3309: 3308: 3304: 3300: 3299:Onetwothreeip 3291: 3286: 3284: 3280: 3276: 3272: 3267: 3266: 3238: 3234: 3230: 3229:Onetwothreeip 3226: 3225: 3224: 3221: 3219: 3213: 3208: 3205: 3204: 3202: 3199:If you go to 3198: 3195: 3194: 3193: 3189: 3185: 3184:Onetwothreeip 3180: 3178: 3174: 3170: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3161: 3157: 3153: 3149: 3145: 3140: 3139: 3138: 3134: 3130: 3129:Onetwothreeip 3126: 3125: 3124: 3120: 3116: 3112: 3111: 3110: 3106: 3102: 3101:Onetwothreeip 3098: 3094: 3093: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3079: 3078: 3077: 3073: 3069: 3068:Onetwothreeip 3065: 3064: 3063: 3060: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3049: 3045: 3044:Onetwothreeip 3040: 3035: 3034: 3033: 3029: 3025: 3021: 3020: 3019: 3018: 3012: 3008: 3005: 3004: 3003: 2999: 2995: 2994:Onetwothreeip 2991: 2990: 2985: 2984: 2979: 2975: 2972: 2971: 2968: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2945: 2941: 2937: 2936:Strong oppose 2934: 2933: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2915:Onetwothreeip 2911: 2910: 2909: 2905: 2901: 2897: 2896:Strong oppose 2894: 2892: 2888: 2884: 2880: 2876: 2873: 2871: 2867: 2863: 2859: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2849: 2845: 2844:Onetwothreeip 2840: 2839: 2838: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2822: 2819: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2805: 2801: 2798: 2797: 2792: 2788: 2787: 2783: 2778: 2777: 2764: 2760: 2756: 2755:Onetwothreeip 2752: 2751: 2750: 2747: 2746: 2742: 2740: 2739: 2732: 2728: 2727: 2726: 2722: 2718: 2717:Onetwothreeip 2713: 2712: 2711: 2707: 2703: 2699: 2694: 2693: 2692: 2688: 2684: 2683:Onetwothreeip 2680: 2679: 2678: 2677: 2674: 2671: 2670: 2666: 2664: 2663: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2649: 2645: 2644:Onetwothreeip 2642: 2641:Onetwothreeip 2638: 2632: 2628: 2624: 2620: 2609: 2605: 2601: 2600:Onetwothreeip 2596: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2588: 2584: 2580: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2569: 2565: 2561: 2557: 2553: 2549: 2546: 2545: 2541: 2537: 2533: 2529: 2528:Jack N. Stock 2524: 2521: 2519: 2516: 2513: 2509: 2508: 2503: 2502: 2497: 2496: 2485: 2482: 2478: 2477: 2476: 2472: 2468: 2467:Onetwothreeip 2463: 2462: 2461: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2446: 2445: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2435:Onetwothreeip 2432: 2428: 2424: 2423: 2422: 2419: 2416: 2412: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2401: 2397: 2396:Onetwothreeip 2393: 2389: 2385: 2381: 2377: 2373: 2369: 2364: 2359: 2350: 2346: 2342: 2341:Onetwothreeip 2338: 2334: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2321: 2317: 2313: 2308: 2307: 2306: 2303: 2299: 2295: 2291: 2286: 2283: 2282: 2275: 2271: 2267: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2257: 2253: 2252:Onetwothreeip 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2243: 2239: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2226: 2220: 2219: 2214: 2213: 2198: 2194: 2190: 2189:Onetwothreeip 2186: 2182: 2181: 2180: 2177: 2173: 2170: 2165: 2164: 2163: 2159: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2137: 2133: 2132:Onetwothreeip 2129: 2124: 2120: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2102: 2098: 2094: 2090: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2079: 2075: 2074:Onetwothreeip 2070: 2066: 2062: 2060: 2056: 2052: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2042: 2041: 2037: 2035: 2034: 2027: 2023: 2019: 2015: 2014: 2013: 2011: 2008: 2004: 1994: 1991: 1987: 1983: 1979: 1976: 1972: 1968: 1964: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1955: 1953: 1947: 1943: 1939: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1919: 1916: 1912: 1910: 1906: 1900: 1896: 1895:Oppose but... 1893: 1892: 1881: 1878: 1875: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1864: 1860: 1856: 1851: 1847: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1839: 1835: 1830: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1821: 1818: 1815: 1811: 1807: 1802: 1799: 1797: 1794: 1791: 1787: 1784: 1783: 1774: 1771: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1759: 1758: 1754: 1750: 1744: 1743:Onetwothreeip 1739: 1738: 1737: 1733: 1729: 1728:Onetwothreeip 1725: 1719: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1700: 1699: 1695: 1689: 1688: 1684: 1680: 1677: 1676: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1656: 1652: 1651: 1650: 1646: 1642: 1641:Onetwothreeip 1638: 1634: 1629: 1628: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1620: 1618: 1612: 1608: 1604: 1601: 1600: 1595: 1594: 1589: 1588: 1585: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1572:Roman Spinner 1569: 1565: 1561: 1558: 1554: 1550: 1546: 1542: 1538: 1534: 1533: 1532: 1528: 1524: 1520: 1516: 1513: 1510: 1508: 1504: 1500: 1496: 1493: 1488: 1484: 1480: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1469: 1465: 1461: 1460:Onetwothreeip 1457: 1453: 1452: 1451: 1450: 1447: 1444: 1440: 1436: 1432: 1429: 1428: 1421: 1417: 1413: 1412:Onetwothreeip 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1398: 1394: 1389: 1383: 1382: 1369: 1365: 1361: 1357: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1347: 1343: 1339: 1338:Roman Spinner 1335: 1331: 1328: 1327: 1320: 1316: 1312: 1311:89.147.70.233 1308: 1307: 1306: 1302: 1298: 1297:Onetwothreeip 1293: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1287: 1283: 1279: 1274: 1270: 1267: 1266: 1262: 1260: 1256: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1242: 1239: 1238: 1233: 1229: 1225: 1224:Onetwothreeip 1220: 1219: 1218: 1217: 1214: 1210: 1206: 1200: 1199:Onetwothreeip 1195: 1194: 1190: 1186: 1182: 1178: 1173: 1172: 1168: 1163: 1161: 1156: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1141: 1137: 1132: 1129: 1125: 1121: 1117: 1116: 1111: 1107: 1103: 1102: 1097: 1096: 1091: 1079: 1078: 1077: 1074: 1071: 1065: 1064: 1061: 1059: 1055: 1051: 1050: 1049: 1042: 1041: 1033: 1032: 1028: 1026: 1025: 1019: 1018: 1011: 1007: 1006:Onetwothreeip 1000: 996: 993: 991: 987: 984: 983: 981: 980: 976: 972: 968: 964: 960: 956: 952: 948: 944: 941:this page to 940: 936: 932: 928: 921: 919: 914: 909: 904: 903: 898: 896: 895: 890: 885: 884: 873: 869: 866: 862: 861: 860: 853: 847: 843: 839: 835: 829: 824: 819: 815: 811: 810: 809: 807: 803: 799: 794: 788: 784: 781: 777: 773: 769: 768:John Cain III 765: 761: 757: 754: 750: 746: 742: 738: 737: 736: 735: 731: 727: 726:Onetwothreeip 717: 713: 709: 705: 704:User:Whyne 02 701: 700: 699: 698: 697: 696: 692: 688: 684: 680: 679:User:Whyne 02 669: 665: 662: 658: 654: 653: 652: 651: 650: 649: 644: 641: 639: 633: 629: 626: 624: 620: 617: 616: 615: 614: 610: 607: 604: 603: 602: 601: 597: 593: 586:John Cain II? 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