Talk:James Randi/Archive 5 - Knowledge (XXG)

1627:(XXG) page because you think that it is lacking something that would make it more accurate. So assuming good faith I will explain a few things to you, I apologize in advance if you already understand how this works and here I am explaining it again to you. But I am making the assumption (lots of them apparently) that you are not aware of how Knowledge (XXG) actually works, considering that you did not sign your request. It is possible that you just forgot to do so, and have no problem backing up your statements with your name as I am doing at this moment. Anyway, when it is a Knowledge (XXG) page for a living person, we have higher standards than if it is a person who has died or if it were not a person but a "it" like a flower or cabbage. Words can harm, we can't slap accusations onto a Knowledge (XXG) page as if it were a tabloid magazine. The standard applies to everyone not just to James Randi. If you were to browse through Knowledge (XXG) articles of controversial people who are still alive you will see what I'm talking about. Look at Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump's pages and you will see are written as neutrally as possible. Also we can't just do a Google search and find some person's opinion and slap that onto an article as a citation. Knowledge (XXG) has standards as I said, without those then anyone could say anything and it would become a citation. Someone could say that he is a lizard person on a website and then the next thing you know someone could use that as a citation and then the Knowledge (XXG) page would say that. Obviously that isn't allowed. If a notable news source does not pick up the story and report on it, then it can't be used as a citation, otherwise everything would be on the page, what Randi has for lunch and what his favorite color is would be on the page, useless trivia. Now who would want to read that? I wouldn't and I doubt you would either. About these other statements that you seem to think should be on the page... Why is the identity theft not mentioned on the page. GOOD QUESTION. I'm not sure. He did talk about it on the documentary. And there are probably notable news articles mentioning it. Personally I think it probably should be on the page. I've not seen any mention of the JREF "crumbling" do you have a good notable citation for that? And what about his "retirement" not sure why you added the quote marks? Are you insinuating something? Maybe because he is 89 years old? Maybe because he wanted to? One more thing anon editor... you are choosing to use words that are not appropriate for Knowledge (XXG). Those are words that you would use on social media or maybe a comment thread somewhere. We don't use those words. You look very biased and angry. We are not kind to people who spout statements that look like conspiracy theories. It isn't nice, and it isn't helpful. If you are here on Knowledge (XXG) to improve, then welcome, learn the rules, sign your work, watch your words, assume good faith, there is a lot of work to be done. 1300:

professional achievements (no matter what Conservapedia and others would imply). Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder: when I see the very careful efforts to avoid mentioning an incident that could put Randi in bad light (i.e., guilt by association), I wonder whether all Knowledge (XXG) article subjects enjoy the same level of care. I suspect that the fact that we all like Randi adds up to bias in our treatment of people like Randi on Knowledge (XXG) relative to other people that we don't like as much, especially as it is easy to justify (in good faith) this bias through selective application of Knowledge (XXG)'s vast corpus of policies.

2006:

brief overview of what the sources tend towards, the matter can be resolved as simply as that. But putting forth that inquiry without presenting some amount of the sourcing results in one of two outcomes: A) the respondents must dig through previous discussions to to research the matter themselves (not ideally efficient) and likely to cause some sourcing to be missed by those not previously involved in the dispute, or B) respondents (especially less experienced editors) may instead lean on their own idiosyncratic notions of which name is more appropriate in the abstract sense, which is an approach that does not conform well to policy.

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actual Jose Alvarez? I made an edit to that effect, and it was immediately reverted. It's a bit jarring to see one place that Randi moved in and is still living with "Jose Alvarez", and then later in the section see that he married and is still living with "Pena" (no Deyvi mentioned there). Randi fans might know what's going on, but I guarantee that will confuse people who don't know, and are looking for information on him. Personally, I think all the information about Randi and Deyvi's love life should be consolidated into one passage. I know it's chronological as is, but it would be clearer if it were topical instead of chronological.

284:, we should have a footnote or a parenthetical mention or something, which explains that the REAL human named José Alvarez is a relatively-unknown resident of the great state of New York, and the REAL human named Deyvi Peña was actually the person with the stage name of The Great Carlos and the false identity of 'José Alvarez' ... but that at the time, this false identity was still fully intact, and thus almost all the wiki-reliable sources refer *incorrectly* to José Alvarez as the man behind The Great Carlos, when it is *correct* to refer to 'José Alvarez' as the man behind The Great Carlos (not addition of scarequotes). 712:" since that is what Randi *calls* his spouse nowadays, and then in a footnote attached thereupon, explain the details: namely, that Randi has been living with his spouse since 19xx (not sure what year exactly... I believe 1987... but the recent 2014 documentary mentioned that specific factoid, methinks, if no other WP:RS does), and that due to the laws related to marriage, they did not *formally* get married until 2013. Furthermore, go on to explain that during most of their decades together, 1980s/1990s/2000s but not 2010s, both of them publicly referred to 3336:

he was replaced by Randi. I was on a second show with Randi with the topic of Peru, along with Mosley. The latter had crazy ideas about finding Peruvian buried treasures. Subsequently Moseley and I were invited to speak at a dinner sponsored by the NY Adventurer's Club. A short time later I was invited to be on Randi's program again, but his show was cancelled before that happened. At TAM2012 I asked Randi if it was possible to find the recordings of my appearances on the show,but he said they were all on non-indexed giant reels, so it would not be possible

306:, other things being equal. However, in this case, there *is* no dedicated article for the human Deyvi Peña aka Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga fka 'José Alvarez' fka 'José Luis Alvarez' fka The Great Carlos. The other guideline, is that when it doesn't matter, defer to what the BLP wants, aka the human named Deyvi Peña, and to a lesser extent, the human named James Randi. Nowadays, if the BLP themselves wants to call themselves by the name Deyvi Peña, then that is what *we* should call that human, per the 338:, by contrast; wikipedia does not call the article about the singer some unpronounceable un-type-able symbol, though we *do* have the symbol listed there, and I believe we even have a redirect somehow implemented ... is there a unicode-codepoint for the Prince-symbol? Anyways, methinks Deyvi Peña is a case where we can use the everyday name, even if we have a lot of primary-court-docs and a lot of churnalism-newspaper-reports that use the full legal name of the defendant aka the accused, because " 2756:

biological concepts of natural selection and survival of the fittest to sociology, economics, and politics." Randi is applying it to biology. He isn't saying that the strong see their wealth and power increase while the weak see their wealth and power decrease. He is saying that drug addicts are more likely to experience physical, biological death. The idea that traits that cause you to die before you breed tend to die out in the population isn't social darwinism. It is just plain darwinism.

612:

a magician (aka an honest liar) is also covered; Randi's use of a stagename, rather than Zwinge that he originally used for his magic act, is also covered. But the core of the documentary, is that Randi has been forced to be a liar his entire life: about his work (professional magician), about his sexuality (non-heterosexual), and about his spouse's legal name (not 'Alvarez')... yet at his core, Randi is still an *honest* liar. It's a good documentary, I highly recommend it;

1607:

discussion about the real reasons his foundation crumbled? Or why he "retired?" A simple google search leads one to many sites that elaborate on numerous questionable and controversial things that Randi has done over the years. This page was clearly written by a Randi fan who, like many, has chosen to ignore the truth in favor of keeping Randi on some sort of Super Skeptic pedestal. This is not a Knowledge (XXG) page - this is a Skeptic's fan page.

31: 1325:, you can find them using a 2006 arbcom case about competing claims of harassment between two editors to claim that "evolutionist administrators" tried to force arbcom to delete the article of a creationist and that arbcom heroically declined. So of course conservapedia will make a mountain out of a molehill for any prominent atheist or skeptic: they are, quite literally, ideologically opposed to critical thinking. 607:

the film. The focus of the film, as evidenced by the title thereof, is on the seven distinct personas jointly utilized by Randi and by Peña-fka-'Alvarez', plus on how those personal personas are related to their joint work skeptically-investigating-and-debunking. The goal of the skeptic is to seek truth, and the goal of the debunker is to reveal fraud. Randi and 'Alvarez' perpetuated a falsehood known as

1121:'s opinion, his second message in the thread that you mentioned indicates "If the matter is as substantial as described above, it will develop, and secondary sources will write a thoughtful analysis of the situation. That is when information should be added here." This was written in 2011 and such secondary sources now exist as I pointed out, so I think it makes sense to reexamine the matter. 3292: 3177: 3303: 540:

nowadays. We *also* refer to him by his full legal name at birth (persona#1C), thrice plus the infobox, and we also mention that he was a magician with a stage name (persona#1B) at least a dozen times, e.g. in the bibliography-discography-section and in the paragraphs on his career as a magician. So that all seems to be done properly, in my eyes.

510:, their spouse since 2013, and also their co-worker and friend since 1988 in the skeptic-investigation-slash-debunking-business. Thus, the "main article" that wikipedia has about the human-sometimes-known-as-Deyvi-Peña, and thus the main article that we have about persona#3A thru persona#3D, is in fact the 3252:

The article states that Long John Nebel turned over his all night radio program on WOR in NY to Randi in 1962, but follows that saying that Randi had the show from 1967-68. Randi had the show from 1962-1963, and I was on the show twice in 1963. I am sure of my dates because I was a high school senior

2796:

Randi seems to look forward to a world where drug addicts have removed themselves from the gene pool. I think that this fits the duck test for social Darwinism, but agree that it should not come from interpretations of primary sources. As the article notes, Randi backtracked on his position following

1626:

Hello anonymous person who is making an accusation. The rules here on Knowledge (XXG) are such that we always try to assume "good faith" which means that instead of assuming you are a troll or a person with malice in mind, we need to assume that you genuinely want to improve the James Randi Knowledge

1251:

a3nm, it appears that what we have here is a good-faith disagreement about article content. Everyone is being reasonable and thoughtful, which is a welcome change from how these content disputes sometimes go. You can post an RfC, but considering that so far there are six editors who disagree with you

991:

Thanks for your explanations. I understand the point about Peña being a low-profile individual, but as the question is about inclusion to James Randi's page, I think the main question is whether this story is relevant to James Randi's bio. If it is, I guess it should be included nevertheless, even if

3335:

As a high school senior in 1963 I had traveled solo through the Peruvian Andes. I had to hike the last 18 km to Macchu Picchu, which was part of rhe reason Randi invited me for a discussion of Teen Travel along with several other teens. I had been a longtime listener to Long John Nebel and knew when

2035:

I'm not sure where this question is coming from, but Alvarez appears to be known primarily by this name. Now, if this were the page Jose Alvarez, I could certainly see the need to establish the other name, but the fact that he occasionally adds the (D.O.P.A.) following the Jose Alvarez does not mean

1163:

The final base consideration is one of relevance. The usual heuristic I like to give to new editors is "if something doesn't change the narrative of the article, it doesn't belong." In this case, we have the narrative of a man who started as a stage magician, then turned towards debunking fraudulent

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in an attempt to reveal truth, that the mainstream media is gullible and won't fact-check a juicy story. There was a deeper falsehood hidden within the overt fraud of Carlos: it turned out that 'Alvarez' was not really Alvarez, and that 'Alvarez' and Randi were not mere friends. Randi's career as

1320:

Clicking on that conservapedia article is great for a laugh. It opens with a ridiculously contrived claim (that the majority of "prominent and vocal defenders of the evolutionary position" are atheists) sourced to two creationist publications and just goes downhill from there. I would not give much

1027:

I agree that readers can follow links to external articles, but how are they to guess which one to follow? Wouldn't it be simpler to just explain briefly the situation and point to external articles for additional detail? I don't think articles should be confusing and rely on external links just to

606:

subsection, where the 2014 documentary I saw is briefly covered, we currently have the following sentence-fragment: "...focuses on Randi's life, his investigations, and his relationship with longtime partner José Alvarez, a.k.a. Deyvi Peña." First off, this is not an NPOV-compliant description of

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section, we need a footnote that explains the truth: Randi described 'Alvarez' by that name, and said he was a friend, at the time, and 'Alvarez' described himself by that name, also at the time, and thus so did all the WP:RS at the time... but later, it turned out they were more than friends, and

2917:

The reference that was added and taken out does say: "I am a magician by trade. I should say, more correctly, I conjure. We magicians don't do magic. The word conjurer is much more accurate, which is somebody who gives the illusion of doing magic. So I am a conjurer by trade, have been since I can

2843:

page. One talks about biology -- physical death caused by a trait. The other talks about sociology, economics, and politics -- in the most evil examples purposely killing people because of a trait. With all due respect, I really do think that you are calling darwinism social darwinism. But none of

1056:

The external article in this case is a reference and – like all inline citations – it can be found in close proximity to the text to which it relates. It wouldn't be simpler to include more content because it would be undue in an article that is not about Peña. The content you're keen to write has

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with 'Alvarez'). Additionally the film focues on Randi's relationship with Deyvi Peña, both since their overt marriage at a federal courthouse in 2013, as well as their earlier personal and professional partnership since 1987, when Peña (who was born Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga in Venezuela) began

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article, we generally refer to "Randi" and in rare cases to "James Randi" ... in other words we use abbreviated and full-length instances of persona#3A to refer to that human ... because that is the title of the article, and that is what 99% of the WP:RS call him, and that is what he calls himself

2755:

and some over-the-top commentary about how stupid and deadly it is to become a drug addict, but I don't see any social Darwinism at all. As it says on our social darwinism page: "Social Darwinism refers to various theories that emerged in Western Europe and North America in the 1870s that applied

1476:

I could not find any source saying when he became a minister at this church, or else perhaps I would keep the paragraph and add that as a reason to bring it up. If somebody can re-word this with more information available it could be worth mentioning, but as of right now the tidbit is so light on

1140:

There are a number of issues here: simply because Randi said this event was the most difficult moment of his life doesn't make the event about Randi. Try searching the articles of a number of actors to determine what they felt was the most difficult role of their lives was; you won't find it. Try

1093:

Thanks for your input. I don't think writing a full article about Peña is adequate, though -- in any case, definitely not about this incident. However, I do think it is relevant to an article about Randi. First, because part of the content I am suggesting to add is undoubtedly about Randi and not

732:

which Peña fka 'Alvarez' briefly assumed during the late 1980s, since that hoax involved international travel to Australia under the now-known-to-be-falsified passport, or might leave that bit out of this particular spouse-specific-footnote; depends on whether we want to combine everything into a

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call him "Randi". Knowledge (XXG) needs to reflect what the sources say, for all encyclopedic topics, and the bulk of the sources refer to magician and skeptic as Randi, plus the human refers to themselves in that fashion, so wikipedia follows suit. Most of their lifetime, 'Alvarez' referred to

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do the same thing for Peña fka 'Alvarez' fka 'Carlos' because he has been using the 'Alvarez' persona most of his adult life, rather than his birthname. In a way, though, the situation is very similar to Randi; the exact same reason we call him "Randi" instead of his birthname "Zwinge" is simply

92:

This may have been hashed out previously, but there's a lot of back talk archives to look through. Question is this: Is there some reason not to recognize in the "Personal Life" section that the person Randi met at the Fort Lauderdale library was Deyvi Pena using the alias "Jose Alvarez", not the

2005:

analysis. While the preferences and proclivities with regard to proper name of the individual in question are not altogether irrelevant, in general we simply utilize the name which receives highest usage in sources. If those presently engaged in the pre-existing content dispute could give us a

1178:

I hope this helps. I know that the rules we have here can be confusing, and that many times something which seems fine by the standards we publish can result in a bit of drama. That's normal. The biggest rule here, one which is rarely written down, but which every editor is expected to follow in

372:

about the incident, we should refer to the stage-name The Great Carlos when we are giving details *about* the hoax-persona, aka "According to the hoax-paperwork, The Great Carlos claimed to be a psychic that performed at The Majestic Theater in Woodstock New York, when in reality no such theater

2878:

Randi seems to have realized in 2013 that his views on this issue were offending some people. While there is a case made by some people for legalizing drugs to get them off the street, Randi went further and said that drug addicts dying and removing themselves from the gene pool would be a good

2071:

I would use the most common name. I have seen Alvarez used far more often than Peña. I think if this is seriously going to be a point of contention, then we just need to buckle down and count sources. Because, you know, simply not caring either way is never going to fly on Knowledge (XXG), even

1305:

Anyways. I hope this can be helpful to understand my point of view. In any case I appreciate the fact that everyone was very civil about the matter. :) As I said earlier, I won't be insisting further because I seem to be alone with my views, but if someone else agrees that the episode should be

747:

Apologies for the length of my reply. The BLP-conundrum is an interesting one, partly because the real-world-topics-which-led-to-this-BLP-conundrum are in fact real-world-interesting; I think wikipedia should treat it (the real-world-topic) correctly, and as neutrally as possible, but without

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actually use). What we *can* do, with wiki-honor fully intact, is replace every unscarequoted use of Alvarez ... except when referring to the New York resident who is the REAL Alvarez o'course... with the corrected 'Alvarez' using explicit scarequotes, and in a footnote explain that the real

1606:

This page is extremely biased and clearly written to present James Randi in a positive light rather than in an honest manner. Why, for example, is there no mention of Randi being complicit (for many, many years) in the identity theft that his partner was jailed for committing? Why is there no

1293:

mentioning this weird scandal about Randi and Peña that I had never heard of. At first I thought it was complete bullshit, but researching it a bit showed that it was at least based on a true story. In this light, I found it pretty strange that the episode was not mentioned at all anywhere on

1299:

Indeed, as it turns out, the consensus appears to be against the addition. I understand that there are valid general motives against it, in particular the need to avoid drawing unwanted attention to Peña, or the general fact that the story is unexpected but not especially relevant to Randi's

2379:

There are over three thousand results for a WP search of "Personal life and death" (Attempted to link directly to search results but apparently that just isn't allowed to work, oh well). I most definitely do not want to start an edit war or anything, but that hardly seems "non-standard" as

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call the faux-psychic by the stage-name The Great Carlos, and call the person behind that stage-name 'José Alvarez' , wikipedia should stick with what the sources actually say. However, the first time we *use* the now-known-to-be-false-persona-name 'José Alvarez' in the article about the

1910:

There is no consensus in this RfC about what name to use for James Randi's spouse owing to low participation. There is no prejudice against a new RfC that follows Snow Rise's advice about presenting an overview of how sources refer to James Randi's spouse to help participants conduct a

1288:

Maybe some explanation about my motives may help understand why I have been pushing this specific issue. (Of course I don't care personally about Randi, Peña, or any of that stuff -- I had just vaguely heard about Randi some years ago.) It's just that, the other day, I stumbled upon

865:, but it was reverted. From the reverts and the discussion above on similar topics, I see that the main counter-argument seems to be that this case is not relevant because the article about James Randi. But I would contend that it is relevant, at least for the following reasons: 1465:

I am removing the entire final paragraph in 'Views On Religion'. What struck me at first was the final sentence - it is out of place and describing a church in it's own sentence awkwardly. If they wanted to describe Spiritual Humanism as it is not a commonplace term, maybe link

1470:? Regardless, the source of the first statement does not fit the text - it claims that Randi is a minister of Spiritual Humanism, and did officiate the wedding. However, he did not "become ... a minister ... to perform the wedding", claiming that is why he became a minister. 616:. So what is the neutral boring cold hard just-the-facts prose, which wikipedia should use in wikipedia's voice to summarize the focus of the film, and more broadly, to summarize the real-world-events that the film is a documentary about? Currently we say that the film is: 252:" seems appropriate, but we could also go with two DAB-entries, which I think some annoying WP:MOS rule mandates because one-bluelink-per-DAB-entry, which means we need one DAB-entry for "Deyvi Peña, aka Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga, fka 'José Alvarez' (born YYYY), spouse of 2455:

believe that when 98% of section titles use one wording that means that we must change the 2% that don't just to enforce some sort of made-up conformity rule. BTW, I just did a count and found that, of the people who have expressed the above opinion, 97.9% used the phrase

1209:

At Knowledge (XXG), anyone can add anything. Therefore the community has developed strong procedures to avoid coatracks for the frequently occurring cases where a notable person (X) has a relative (Y), and an unfortunate incident occurs regarding Y. The rules are simple:

1175:. This information does nothing to change the narrative of the article, while simultaneously impinging upon Randi's reputation. It makes our article less than neutral, because we are conveying negative information about a person for no appreciable benefit to the article. 1141:

searching the articles of a number of scientists to find what they felt was the most important discovery of their career; you won't find it. In all those cases, the subject is the role or the discovery, or (in the case of Randi's quote) the arrest of his spouse.

2302:"The identity confusion caused the real Alvarez some legal and financial difficulties" That's a funny way of saying identity theft, and certainly not encyclopedic. It's hilarious how themRandi apologists try to cover up his accessory to criminal activity. 2352:

Except that the October 9th date of Randi's death was in fact published by RT News and The Telegraph--both overseas news sources. Or did the exact date of Randi's passing simply get lost in the American political sideshow that we're all so enamored with?

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psychics, then turned his efforts towards managing an educational foundation devoted to promoting critical thinking and skepticism. The fact that his spouse committed a crime doesn't change that narrative one bit. Had Randi committed a crime, that

1032:

to mention this story, but please argue why -- I have given several sources over a five-year period above to justify that it is notable, and several reasons in my original post about why it is a relevant thing to include. Thanks for your input! :)

2173:

You need a more RS than Youtube. Also, while it would be fine to add an addition that he prefers the term conjurer, the more familiar term is magician. What he would prefer to be known as and what he is known as are two different things.

669:

is ACTUALLY about. We cannot be vague and weasel-worded; the documentary is not about Randi's "life and investigations and relationship" the documentary is very specifically about lies, and liars, and which ones are "honest liars" (e.g.

2769:

The fact that different editors can look at the same primary source and come to different conclusions is why we forbid editors looking at a primary source and coming to conclusions not explicitly stated in any reliable secondary source.

1252:

and zero who agree with you, it is doubtful that such an RfC will go the way you want it to. Nonetheless, you are free to try -- I might be wrong. I wrote an essay about this exact situation which you might find to be useful; it is at

869:

The article mentions the two names of Randi's spouse, Deyvi Peña and José Alvarez, without a clear explanation of the relationship between these two names. This is confusing, and it would seem logical to give some explanation of the

1611:

Written by a Randi fan huh! More than 1400 different editors have edited this article. There are 171 reliable references justifying the information contained in the article. You never gave a single ref for your accusations here.

2520:

I agree that "Personal life" is adequate. Some biographies include a separate "Death" section when the death itself was widely discussed, unexpected, controversial or somehow shocking. Age related death at 92 does not qualify.

3013: 964:. It explains it all in more than adequate detail. That's one of the great things about Knowledge (XXG) references, they are a wonderful resource for learning more and for finding out about related subjects that would be 2691:) that directly supports your conclusion, or give up. I know that it is frustrating (there are several things that I know are correct that I can't put into Knowledge (XXG) articles) but that's how encyclopedia's work. -- 2879:

thing. Bring it on, he argued. He quotes Darwin during the 2009 piece. Again, I'm not going to argue over this without secondary sourcing, but this did offend some people and led to him repositioning his argument.--

1969: 757: 108: 885:, in addition to many newspaper articles about Randi (cf sources cited in the reverted edits above), so there are definitely serious sources which think that it is a relevant point about Randi's personal life. 2384:

put it in their reversion of my recent edit. Perhaps this merits a larger discussion on general WP formatting, doesn't seem there is a single standard for sections/subsections on the death of an individual.

2336:

According to the obituary, it says that "he died on Tuesday at his home in Plantation, Fla. He was 92." The date of the original posting was October 21st which seems to contradict the October 9th date.

3115:

I think by Arthur Conan Doyle, not sure if we should add to the article something like "similar to Houdini, people asserted that despite debunking psychic phenomena, he himself actually was psychic"

124:

is the typical style. Also, I have seen the 2014 documentary about this, not sure if that makes me biased or not. :-) There are eight personas involved here (to date!), but only three humans.

3337: 1057:

Peña as its subject, not Randi. If you think the sources are sufficient to write an article about Peña and justify his notability, feel free to do so, but remember that notability is not inherited.

2360: 2283: 857:

Hi, I am surprised that there is currently no mention in the article of the fact that Randi's spouse was arrested and sentenced for identity theft. I have tried to add some mention of this

1294:

Knowledge (XXG) (indeed, its absence had help me believe initially that it was bogus), so I thought it would be an interesting addition, although I expected there may be some disagreement.

494:

We can leave the details out of the hoax-article (and the DAB-page and redirects and such), and concentrate on getting all the details right in our main article. Now, at the moment, we

356:

So, with the redirect mostly covered, in terms of our *textual* use of names, in the prose of articles (as opposed to redirects and titles), I recommend the following: in the article on

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scarequotes explicitly included, and then parenthetically mention that it was later discovered that the REAL unscarequoted José Luis Alvarez was not involved at all, but that the human

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court-documents, which refer to only the full legal name Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga, but wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a court-recording-service. Similarly, there are undoubtedly

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involved, though at the time he was impersonating the real Alvarez and calling himself 'Alvarez' while never calling himself Peña. Make sense? As simple as possible, but no simpler.

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With the final sentence removed and the first sentence only being about a wedding he officiated, it does not seem like a worthy point to make in relation to his Views on Religion.

665:

That is obviously quite a mouthful, and should probably be chunked up into a triplet or quadruplet of sentences. But, it cannot be cut by much, if we want to neutrally cover what

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actual exists." Elsewhere in the hypothetical article about the hoax, we can say that the WP:RS at the time reported that the person behind the stage-name was 'José Luis Alvarez'

3087:

The bad edit takes something that James Randi, along with fellow Magicians Penn and Teller, often point out -- that magic isn't real and that they are tricking you -- and through

1009: 656:'José Luis Alvarez' to illegally remain in the United States (convicted in 2011 and assigned NNN hours of community service but allowed to remain in the country as a non-citizen). 2001:

More information besides "See previous discussions" would be helpful in helping respondents properly address the RfC inquiry. Really this should boil down to a straight-forward

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a dedicated article about that incident, there must have been hundreds of newspaper reports and television coverage and all that stuff, sheesh ... in the hypothethetical article

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points out, given that no one here seems to agree with my opinion on this, I will not be pressing the matter further. If anyone else cares, though, they are welcome to comment.

1012: 889: 256:, used a false identity to immigrate from Venezuela to the United States" and then another DAB-entry saying "Deyvi Peña fka 'José Alvarez' (false identity), participant in the 3295:

that Nebel left WOR in summer 1964, that Randi was given the slot right after, and that he (Moseley) appeared regularly on Randi's show before Randi was fired in January 1966.

2551:

So, unless a bunch more people weigh in, with one for "Personal life and death", three for "Personal life", and one "Don't care", "Personal life" has consensus so far. --

1685: 1849: 1845: 1831: 1733: 1729: 1715: 1548: 1544: 1530: 1407: 1403: 1389: 2364: 2287: 330:, use the everyday name Deyvi Peña, as preferred by James Randi, and presumably as preferred by the human-sometimes-called-Deyvi-Peña-et-cetera. (See the example of 2429:

Huh? Over 98% use one format and you don’t see that as a good reason to use it? How imbalanced would it have to be to indicate to you which is the proper standard?

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statements to show some negativity about its subject (Randi). Is there a specific proposal? If it's above, please quote the first couple of words so I can find it.

2655:

So how exactly do I correct this? It's inaccurate as it stands from the source on the page. All that I used was on there already. I'm not sure what the problem is.

3321:

I'll change the article to 1964-65 based on these sources. Since you say you were on the show twice in 63, could it have been while Randi guest-hosted for Nebel?

3095:

comes to the false conclusion that James Randi somehow didn't want to be called a magician. P&T had a TV show with a title that describes that conclusion. --

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that the details of Peña's court case are not suitable content for an article whose subject is his spouse, any more than it would be for any married couple. --

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Doyle was obviously unable to imagine that anybody could be smart enough to trick him; this enormous overconfidence is probably the root of all belief in psi.

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The sources you suggest should justify Peña's notability are not relevant to Randi, but if you still think that some content is relevant here, despite our

213:

name "Deyvi Peña" will be interested in the human-as-revealed-to-be-not-the-same-as-José-Alvarez-of-New-York, and because whilst "José Alvarez" was in the

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with Randi, where he doesn't give dates but mentions he was fired after a year and a half. Extensive WOR-AM archives that could help us verify this are

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My long-term suggestion is that we use the documentary and the 60 Minutes footage and all the other coverage, and write a dedicated article about the

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I must be off by at least a year since it was definitely after Nebel left. I don't have any memorabilia of the time. Thanks for checking into this.

3309: 291:, the full legal birthname of Deyvi Peña , and almost certainly (though I've not read them all so I don't know) the most commonly-found name in the 236:, should be a redirect to the article on the human who is the spouse of James Randi (whatever name that article is... right now we just redirect to 3277: 1109: 1005: 161: 2973: 2713:

do look a lot like social Darwinism. In fact, it's hard to see how they could be interpreted as anything else. There were some problems with

2100:

and he is best known as Jose Alvarez. In fact, I am having trouble finding any sources that call him Deyvi Peña outside of the legal case. --

898:. I understand that this is just ad hominem, but it feels weird that there would be no mention of these facts in the Knowledge (XXG) article. 891:, search for "Randi testified"). Given Randi's role in debunking frauds, this has been used by various groups to criticize and discredit him 2133:

It looks like this bot made a huge number of minor changes, most of which delete information, but a few add information. What should we do?

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concerns. Adding content about a crime committed by a BLP subject's spouse implies wrongdoing on the part of the BLP subject. Even if it is

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I agree with WV. I haven't followed this recently (are we supposed to read all the gumph above??) but in the past people have wanted to add

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However, do not use the article for X to write about Y or the incident. The benefit is that BLP articles will be free from undue muck—if a

1701: 1112:) are about Randi (as their titles indicate). So I don't understand why you say that they are "not relevant to Randi". Could you clarify? 1064:

policy, you always have the option of opening an RfC to seek input from more editors. I also invite you to review the opinion offered by

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that matters. Our opinions are irrelevant. Is there a reliable secondary source that explicitly calls James Randi a social darwinist? --

2159: 749: 385:... and then give a fuller explanation, of exactly why Peña was using the 'Alvarez' persona, with all the extended details, over at the 331: 3341: 2997: 2835:

I strongly disagree that drug addicts removing themselves from the gene pool fits the duck test for social darwinism. Again, read the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20130419063417/http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/theskeptic/2ndcoming/skepticism.pdf

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For folks that might not know, the reason that "Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga" is being shortened to simply "Deyvi Peña" has to do with

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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So there's no editorial oversight, and what appears is only on the authority of its writer. Seems to be junk. I'll remove it. --

477:, later in 2011 it turned out that 'José Luis Alvarez' was a false identity used for immigration purposes, and that in actuality 2229: 3045: 2333: 1689: 1152:

carefully worded, it nonetheless implies something due to the way the human mind (of the reader) works. There's a reason that

992:

it incidentally mentions Peña's crime. About "persistent coverage in reliable sources": the story was prominently featured in

3029: 1516: 794: 1811: 625:...focuses on Randi's life, his investigations, and his relationship with longtime partner José Alvarez, a.k.a. Deyvi Peña. 2122:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20121005105825/http://www.americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III/Notable_Signers

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You can't "fix" it by inserting your conclusions that it is inaccurate even if you are right. We have a policy on that:

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supposedly james randi has passed away today, i not been able to find a source other than a close friend Penn Jillette.

1892: 1776: 1591: 1450: 3302:. There, it's cited to a 1974 book by Donald Bain. Bain actually says August 1963. Reports published in August 1964 in 3064:] says "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation". -- 3021: 2098: 506:

article-title), nor on their various personas and stagenames used at earlier dates. What we do have, is a redirect to

2641:(Moved here from my talk page. The article talk page is where you are supposed to discuss what goes in the article. -- 828:

Somebody has recently added something attributed to dailygrail.com. I quote the foot of the top page of this website:

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we now know that the unscarequoted-Alvarez was NOT actually involved. The first time we so refer to 'Alvarez' in the

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For all these reasons, I believe that we should add some mention of this case to the article, for instance following

876:, so this seems like a pretty relevant point to mention in the "Personal life" section of the article on James Randi. 833:

The opinions expressed on TDG reflect solely the opinion of the person posting the material, not TDG nor its editors.

3387:

I found several more newspaper reports about Nebel's show from 1964, that list him as still being on WOR, including

2097:. He self-identifies as "Jose Alvarez DOPA" or "Jose Alvarez (DOPA)", the DOPA meaning "Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga", 733:

single big footnote, or have a set of three or four footnotes for different subsections of the "main" article about

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at least). Similarly, we cannot simply replace every instance of Alvarez in wikipedia with the name Peña, because

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for various things "Deyvi Peña" is mostly not in the public eye, that I'm aware, in terms of being featured in the

72: 67: 59: 38: 3005: 1379: 906:. If there are valid arguments to justify that this is irrelevant for the article, please let me know. Thanks! -- 3395:. Unfortunately it's hard to go against such sources based on personal testimony, as I hope you can understand. 1848:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

717: 683: 675: 594: 288: 226: 3371: 3355: 3258: 2989: 2499: 2081: 1290: 935:"The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources" 896: 98: 3120: 892: 244:, which right now it is not so listed. Something like, "Deyvi Peña fka 'José Alvarez' (born YYYY), spouse of 2163: 2056:, and from the fact that the name we use use for James Randi's spouse has long been a point of contention. -- 2494:

It should be just "Personal life". The "and death" was presumably added when the recent death occurred, but

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You may very well not "see how they could be interpreted as anything else", but I don't see even a hint of

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I found a cite that shows the date of his death as well as the location for a reputable source. Please see

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I will not open an RfC for now as I am still waiting for the opinion of more editors here. Best regards, --

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bunch of laws revolving around passports and legal immigration and identity theft. Might also mention the

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The biography on the back cover of his book "Flim-Flam!" says "James Randi is internationally known as a

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

1413: 1160:. For an encyclopedia to write about it is not: we are attempting to provide an overview of the subject. 1802:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1702:

https://web.archive.org/web/20131103143722/http://www.skepticalabyss.com/?tag=tam-randi-amazing-meeti-g

1676:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1507:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1366:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 581: 369: 2949: 2329: 1171:

Last but not least, there is an issue that arises when you consider the last two base considerations:

1015:) over five years (from 2011 to 2015). I think this justifies that it is significant, don't you agree? 576:

in the appropriate place, which right now is paragraph starting with "In February 1988,..." under the

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methinks). This persona#3B -- as very much distinct from #2A -- should be listed at the DAB-page for

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early in his career as a magician, his later skeptic investigation-and-debunking work (including the

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is such a common fallacy; it works. For newspapers to write about it is natural: they are conveying

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later it also turned out that from 1987 through 2011 'Alvarez' was the false identity being used by

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that mimic the court-documents, and use the full legal name, but wikipedia is an encyclopedia and

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Is there any way we can get a less distorted voice clip? This one sounds like it's 50 years old.

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for 86 years, that's a long time to know about these things and develop your knowledge about it."

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The edit which attempted to add false information about what James Randi called himself is here:

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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Venezuelan personal-names having the form FirstName MiddleName PaternalLastName MaternalLastName

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The case is mentioned prominently in another biographical source about Randi, namely, the film

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Finally, when we are covering the |spouse= portion of the infobox on Randi, we can simply say "

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José Luis Alvarez (full legal name of the innocent New York resident aka the REAL José Alvarez)

137:(stage), Randall Zwinge (birth) ; #2. Alvarez (real) ; #3. Peña (everyday), 'Alvarez' (false), 3384:), including to replace the signature, and you're still welcome to do that since I don't mind. 2752: 2660: 2212: 2208: 1632: 1617: 1327: 1181: 514:

article (which also necessarily covers the human behind persona#1A thru persona#1C of course).

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I don't see the above as being a good reason to remove "and death", so it is up to consensus.

1172: 551: 311: 3221: 3158: 2836: 2748: 2565:"Personal life". Death, as mentioned above, is not unusual or unexpected in 92 year olds.-- 2434: 1922: 1232:

has failed to detail substantive changes to X's life due to the incident, the negativity is

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I don't see any of the above as being sufficient reason to highlight a crime committed by a

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https://apnews.com/article/james-randi-magician-obituaries-8b14c7fe50695303efd0ddd029e68f18

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http://www.skeptics.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/theskeptic/2ndcoming/skepticism.pdf

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Second, because all sources I have indicated above except the Sun Sentinel articles (i.e.,

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https://web.archive.org/web/20050219163932/http://eofftv.com/w/wei/weird_thoughts_main.htm

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Knowledge (XXG):Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive228#James Randi's spouse

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140908065521/http://meettheskeptics.libsyn.com/webpage/2010

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Knowledge (XXG):Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive228#James Randi's spouse

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Knowledge (XXG):Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive228#James Randi's spouse

102: 452:(who also played Carlos), in an attempt to show the gullibility of the mainstream media. 3298:"1964" for Nebel's switch to WNBC conflicts with "1962", which we say both here and in 3281: 3096: 3065: 2845: 2771: 2692: 2642: 2600: 2570: 2552: 2522: 2503: 2473: 2412: 2386: 2313: 2134: 2101: 2057: 2008: 1951: 1834:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1821: 1718:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1642: 1533:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1392:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 1311: 1278: 1259: 1131: 1100: 1038: 993: 986: 938: 911: 881: 766: 653: 390: 2684: 1874:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

1399: 3186: 3150: 3131: 2617: 2507: 2175: 1237: 1118: 1065: 809: 785: 783:. The article is about Randi, not his spouse and not his spouse's life history. -- 734: 713: 709: 590: 499: 478: 447: 439: 403: 386: 382: 201: 3280:: "1966/67", though official biographies are not necessarily accurate. We also cite 3176: 3084:

Sources where James Randi asked to be called a conjurer instead of a magician: none.

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I am taking the liberty of reposting one of the comments from that discussion here:

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as the spouse thereof, which is prolly appropriate since most people searching for

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He actually died on October 9th, but they kept deleting and reverting my edit...

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suggestions for what exact human-monikers ought be used in 3 specific sections of

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James Randi repeatedly said he prefers the term "conjurer" rather than "magician"

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stuff directly related to the identity theft of the human from New York, and the

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It does not matter. This arricle is neither about Houdini nor about Conan Doyle.

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https://www.thewrap.com/james-randi-magician-and-paranormal-debunker-dies-at-92/

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

3268:

Thanks for sharing this here. I checked, we used to say "mid-1960s", which was

2459:"Over 98% use one wording and you don’t think that is a good reason to use it?" 1380:

http://www.americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III/Notable_Signers

389:. Most of this is hypothetical, all wikipedia has right now is a one-liner at 3396: 3322: 3314:

make it clear that the correct date is 1964. That's also supported by a short

2604: 2153: 1840:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1724:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1695: 1539:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1398:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 1088: 1073: 1022: 969: 839: 2599:

If the Personal life section warrants dividing into subsections someday, the

2467:"Over 98% use one format and you don’t see that as a good reason to use it?", 423:, but for the short-term-moment, I suggest we revise the one-liner like this: 2840: 2566: 2309: 1307: 1127: 1051: 1034: 955: 907: 117: 2158:

We should change the terminology to the term he identifies as: a conjurer.

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I made a second comment to this topic, but I had not logged in beforehand

234:'José Alvarez' aka 'José Luis Alvarez' (false identity used by Deyvi Peña) 2683:

based upon primary sources. Either find a reliable secondary source (see

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Yes, the audio quality is a bit rubbish. What seems to have happened is

2607:("Death") articles are examples having a Death subsection in some form. 1094:

Peña, see the second bullet point in my original lists of reasons above.

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subsection, we need to refer to 'Alvarez' with scarequotes... since per

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themselves as 'Alvarez' at all times, and thus the vast majority of the

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for a case where the preferences of the BLP-in-question were trumped by

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Taking it section by section: when we are covering the subtopic of the

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about 'Alvarez' follow suit, and thus so must wikipedia follow suit...

326:. In other words, I think the case can be made that wikipedia should, 299:

says that *article-titles* should be the most common name of the topic

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that what DOPA spells out to is a name he is particularly known by. --

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Randi has admitted under oath that he was aware of the deception (see

527:, which is also the 'main' article currently about Peña-fka-'Alvarez' 2152:

This is an example of one case in which he explained the difference:

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thought to what conservapedia has to say about anything, in honesty.

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which is similar in ultimate nature. There are undoubtedly a lot of

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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/obituaries/james-randi-dead.html

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every edit is: make sure what you're doing improves the project.

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If the incident is notable, write an article about the incident.

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the first reference after the names are mentioned in the article

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Randi has called Peña's arrest the "hardest moment of life" in

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to "1967/68". We cite a biography published on Randi's website

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in articles and/or subsections-of-articles where it makes sense

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The above seems like a good plan to me. Does anyone object? --

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If you find the two names confusing, then follow the link to

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http://www.skepticalabyss.com/?tag=tam-randi-amazing-meeti-g

1217:(something substantive, not that they felt bad for a while). 2502:

for recent examples (October deaths currently redirects to

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https://twitter.com/pennjillette/status/1319015298184278016

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https://twitter.com/pennjillette/status/1319014935544750080

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in the original recording and this would be hard to fix.--

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RfC: What name should we use use for James Randi's spouse?

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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You're free to edit your comments before others replied (

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Thanks everyone for your detailed and civil feedback. As

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The Amazing Randi (stage-name of a professional magician)

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in the reverted edit, but the basic point was correct.--

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in the appropriate sections of our articles on the topic

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Houdini also was "accused" of actually being a psychic

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to include in the encyclopedia article about Randi. --

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I suggest instead we ought to say something like this:

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Randall James Hamilton Zwinge (birthname of the above)

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in that source. I see support for good old fashioned

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Although it was not known in 1988 at the time of the

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though I'm perfectly okay with both of those edits.

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http://www.randi.org/jr/200512/122305hallelujah.html

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mentioned, they are welcome to express themselves.--

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rules of being nice to humans when we can, see also

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the Library of Congress, but they're not digitised.

2935:(direct quote from the same source you just cited). 2472:

so you should of course use the standard phrase. --

1980:

Talk:James Randi/Archive 4#Carlos hoax in Australia

1844:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1728:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1543:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1521:

http://www.eofftv.com/w/wei/weird_thoughts_main.htm

1402:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1028:be understood. I understand you believe that it is 996:

and was the topic of articles in major newspapers (

3318:of Nebel written by Syracuse University Libraries. 2375:"Personal life and death" for section heading name 193:for reasons unrelated to the spouse-of-James-Randi 1477:relevant information I think it's better removed. 1461:View on Religion and Church of Spiritual Humanism 643:...focuses on Randi's name-change from Zwinge to 2260:https://web.randi.org/home/james-randi-has-died 1975:Talk:James Randi/Archive 5#James Randi's spouse 1908: 748:varnishing nor censoring the cold hard facts. 198:Deyvi Peña (spouse and former hoax-participant) 155:James Randi (professional magician and skeptic) 3291:Then-friend James W. Moseley said on page 189 3248:Correction to Randi's years on WOR radio in NY 1830:This message was posted before February 2018. 1816:http://meettheskeptics.libsyn.com/webpage/2010 1714:This message was posted before February 2018. 1529:This message was posted before February 2018. 1388:This message was posted before February 2018. 1069: 481:was the person who played and helped concoct 8: 699:involved whatsoever, but that the real Peña 2154:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgXQYg0bru8 1696:http://www.csicop.org/articles/uri_dis.html 1213:If X's career is affected, write about the 779:My concern with this issue has always been 2354: 2303: 2277: 2215: 1499:I have just modified one external link on 1358:I have just modified one external link on 1220:If Y is notable, write an article about Y. 518: 295:. There are conflicting guidelines here; 128: 1974: 1794:I have just modified 2 external links on 1668:I have just modified 3 external links on 3247: 2928:He called himself a magician. "Oh, as a 2051:The question is coming from these edits: 678:at least), and which ones are not (e.g. 391:List of hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes_of_exposure 3338:2603:8001:BC02:45BF:70F2:8665:CECA:EDC5 466: 107:We just had a discussion about this at 2403:"Personal life and death" 3,401 (1.9%) 2361:2001:1970:4B25:2D00:A963:4231:8FE5:640 2284:2001:1970:4B25:2D00:A963:4231:8FE5:640 1944:Should James Randi's spouse be called 229:stuff about being the spouse of Randi. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 7: 1932:The following discussion is closed. 1173:writing from a neutral point of view 1950:Deyvi Peña, a.k.a. Jose Alvarez? -- 1947:Jose Alvarez, a.k.a. Deyvi Peña or 332:The artist formerly known as Prince 221:by name, with the exception of the 1323:Just one click away from that page 24: 2118:The discussion above is closed. 1925:) 01:08, 23 September 2018 (UTC) 1798:. Please take a moment to review 1672:. Please take a moment to review 1503:. Please take a moment to review 1362:. Please take a moment to review 260:" or something along those lines. 3180:The coming of the fairies (1922) 2709:Randi's comments about drugs in 690:(and it's not the name that the 181:, redlink presumably -- and per 29: 2400:"Personal life" 181,753 (98.1%) 1820:Corrected formatting/usage for 1694:Corrected formatting/usage for 1004:) as well as local newspapers ( 141:(stage), Peña-Arteaga (birth). 2797:the Storr interview in 2013.-- 2464:and only 2.2% used the phrase 2411:My !vote is "I don't care". -- 1602:This page is extremely biased. 171:, redirect to the person above 164:, redirect to the person above 1: 3195:15:47, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 3167:15:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 3149:A primary source is given in 3140:08:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 3125:00:56, 23 February 2023 (UTC) 2637:Moved here from my talk page. 2603:("Retirement and death") and 2143:01:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC) 1782:06:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC) 818:05:59, 2 September 2015 (UTC) 799:03:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC) 775:03:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC) 760:, 20:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC) 267:, which is a redirect to the 265:The Great Carlos (stage name) 200:, currently a redirect under 3405:05:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC) 3376:22:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC) 3360:06:08, 6 November 2023 (UTC) 3346:22:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC) 3331:10:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC) 3263:07:57, 5 November 2023 (UTC) 2897:15:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2854:13:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2815:13:27, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2780:13:18, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2735:08:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2711:this blog post in April 2009 2701:06:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2670:This is regarding this edit: 2665:02:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2651:06:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC) 2621:14:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC) 2575:07:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 2561:03:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 2535:02:10, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 2516:01:36, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 2482:08:42, 4 November 2020 (UTC) 2439:06:09, 4 November 2020 (UTC) 2421:01:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC) 2395:20:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC) 2369:04:01, 23 October 2020 (UTC) 2347:00:01, 23 October 2020 (UTC) 2322:01:00, 23 October 2020 (UTC) 2292:20:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC) 2271:22:22, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 2254:21:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 2234:20:59, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 2204:21:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC) 1898:04:38, 12 January 2018 (UTC) 1651:23:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC) 1637:01:56, 31 October 2017 (UTC) 1622:01:06, 30 October 2017 (UTC) 848:02:17, 15 January 2017 (UTC) 381:behind The Great Carlos was 2839:page and compare it to the 2110:19:13, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 2088:19:02, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 2066:18:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 2046:05:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 2026:05:29, 26 August 2018 (UTC) 1960:05:16, 23 August 2018 (UTC) 862:, as have others before me 554:, the vast majority of the 189:a redlink, unless they are 3423: 3242:07:22, 15 April 2023 (UTC) 3215:21:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC) 3105:05:52, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 3074:05:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 2923:02:44, 15 March 2021 (UTC) 1861:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1791:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1745:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1665:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1560:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1496:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1456:11:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC) 1419:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1355:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1341:21:25, 10 April 2017 (UTC) 1144:There's also the issue of 718:Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga 595:Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga 387:appropriate linked article 289:Deyvi Orangel Peña Arteaga 122:FirstName PaternalLastName 2498:fades quite quickly. See 1597:11:41, 26 July 2017 (UTC) 1316:14:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC) 1268:06:32, 6 April 2017 (UTC) 1246:05:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC) 1230:reliable secondary source 1195:19:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 1136:19:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 1082:18:56, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 1070:#Carlos hoax in Australia 1043:18:23, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 978:15:57, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 947:15:09, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 916:13:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC) 103:05:41, 29 July 2015 (UTC) 2500:Deaths in September 2020 2239:Here is another source: 2184:20:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2168:20:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC) 2120:Please do not modify it. 1935:Please do not modify it. 1487:06:04, 18 May 2017 (UTC) 756:), originally posted at 688:that's not what happened 498:no dedicated article on 1902: 1787:External links modified 1661:External links modified 1492:External links modified 1351:External links modified 1291:this Conservapedia page 248:and participant in the 3272:to "late-1960s", then 3181: 3052:called him a magician. 3044:called him a magician. 3036:called him a magician. 3028:called him a magician. 3020:called him a magician. 3012:called him a magician. 3004:called him a magician. 2996:called him a magician. 2994:The Hollywood Reporter 2988:called him a magician. 2980:called him a magician. 2972:called him a magician. 2964:called him a magician. 2956:called him a magician. 2948:called him a magician. 2451:That is correct. I do 1965:Previous discussions: 1927: 924:low profile individual 728:and the stage name of 535:In the context of the 410:and Jose Luis Alvarez. 133:#1. Randi (everyday), 87: 3179: 2962:The Los Angeles Times 2942:and an escape artist" 2093:I am leaning towards 2083:Tell me all about it. 1336:Tell me all about it. 1190:Tell me all about it. 1168:change the narrative. 364:batman, why don't we 42:of past discussions. 2679:. You also can't do 2129:Citation bot changes 1842:regular verification 1726:regular verification 1641:Excellent answer. -- 1541:regular verification 1400:regular verification 1154:guilt by association 402:Carlos, a fictional 271:. Since 99% of the 88:James Randi's spouse 3010:The Washington Post 2978:The Chicago Tribune 2031:Threaded discussion 1832:After February 2018 1716:After February 2018 1531:After February 2018 1390:After February 2018 853:Identity theft case 586:James_Randi#Skeptic 578:James_Randi#Skeptic 3182: 2946:The New York Times 1886:InternetArchiveBot 1837:InternetArchiveBot 1770:InternetArchiveBot 1721:InternetArchiveBot 1585:InternetArchiveBot 1536:InternetArchiveBot 1468:Religious Humanism 1444:InternetArchiveBot 1395:InternetArchiveBot 1013:Sun Sentinel again 3156: 3034:The New York Post 2371: 2359:comment added by 2324: 2308:comment added by 2294: 2282:comment added by 2236: 2220:comment added by 2084: 2000: 1862: 1746: 1561: 1420: 1337: 1191: 743: 742: 645:The Amazing Randi 604:James_Randi#2010s 502:the human (under 448:José Luis Alvarez 370:Draft:Carlos hoax 352: 351: 135:The Amazing Randi 85: 84: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3414: 3237: 3235: 3234: 3154: 3042:Associated Press 2892: 2890: 2889: 2837:Social Darwinism 2810: 2808: 2807: 2749:social darwinism 2730: 2728: 2727: 2619: 2614: 2532: 2530:Let's discuss it 2246:MikaelaArsenault 2086: 2082: 2079: 1994: 1937: 1896: 1887: 1860: 1859: 1838: 1780: 1771: 1744: 1743: 1722: 1595: 1586: 1559: 1558: 1537: 1454: 1445: 1418: 1417: 1396: 1339: 1335: 1332: 1282: 1193: 1189: 1186: 1092: 1055: 1026: 990: 959: 927:. As it says in 797: 788: 730:The Great Carlos 609:The Great Carlos 519: 486: 483:The Great Carlos 471: 393:which says this: 139:The Great Carlos 129: 81: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 18:Talk:James Randi 3422: 3421: 3417: 3416: 3415: 3413: 3412: 3411: 3368:SolenopsisAgain 3352:SolenopsisAgain 3300:Long John Nebel 3255:SolenopsisAgain 3250: 3232: 3230: 3228: 3203: 3113: 2915: 2887: 2885: 2883: 2805: 2803: 2801: 2725: 2723: 2721: 2639: 2610: 2608: 2528: 2377: 2300: 2298:Idenftity theft 2192: 2150: 2131: 2126: 2075: 2073: 2033: 1997:Summoned by bot 1989: 1933: 1928: 1905: 1890: 1885: 1853: 1846:have permission 1836: 1804:this simple FaQ 1789: 1774: 1769: 1737: 1730:have permission 1720: 1678:this simple FaQ 1663: 1604: 1589: 1584: 1552: 1545:have permission 1535: 1509:this simple FaQ 1494: 1463: 1448: 1443: 1411: 1404:have permission 1394: 1368:this simple FaQ 1353: 1328: 1326: 1276: 1182: 1180: 1086: 1068:in the section 1049: 1020: 984: 953: 855: 826: 790: 784: 744: 684:WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV 676:WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV 528: 491: 490: 489: 472: 468: 453: 435: 353: 301:as used in the 227:WP:NOTINHERITED 142: 90: 77: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3420: 3418: 3410: 3409: 3408: 3407: 3385: 3382:WP:TALK#REVISE 3364: 3363: 3362: 3348: 3319: 3311:New York Times 3296: 3289: 3253:at that time. 3249: 3246: 3245: 3244: 3202: 3199: 3198: 3197: 3174: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3170: 3169: 3147: 3117:50.230.251.244 3112: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3085: 3082: 3058: 3057: 3047: 3039: 3031: 3023: 3015: 3007: 2999: 2991: 2983: 2975: 2967: 2959: 2951: 2943: 2936: 2914: 2913:recent changes 2911: 2910: 2909: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2862: 2861: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2824: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2817: 2787: 2786: 2785: 2784: 2783: 2782: 2762: 2761: 2760: 2759: 2758: 2757: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2737: 2704: 2703: 2673: 2638: 2635: 2634: 2633: 2632: 2631: 2630: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2626: 2625: 2624: 2623: 2601:Martin Gardner 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 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384: 380: 376: 371: 367: 363: 360:... and holy 359: 355: 354: 341: 337: 336:WP:COMMONNAME 333: 329: 325: 321: 317: 313: 309: 305: 304: 298: 297:WP:COMMONNAME 294: 290: 286: 283: 278: 274: 270: 266: 262: 259: 255: 251: 247: 243: 239: 235: 231: 228: 224: 223:WP:NOTSCANDAL 220: 216: 212: 208: 203: 199: 195: 192: 188: 184: 180: 176: 173: 170: 166: 163: 159: 156: 152: 151: 150: 149: 148: 147: 146: 145: 140: 136: 131: 130: 123: 119: 115: 114: 112: 110: 105: 104: 100: 96: 80: 76: 74: 71: 69: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3310: 3304: 3286:available at 3282:an interview 3251: 3226: 3225: 3204: 3201:Voice Sample 3114: 3059: 3050:The Guardian 3049: 3041: 3033: 3025: 3017: 3009: 3001: 2993: 2985: 2977: 2969: 2961: 2953: 2945: 2939: 2929: 2916: 2881: 2880: 2799: 2798: 2719: 2718: 2654: 2640: 2611: 2529: 2523: 2496:WP:RECENTISM 2452: 2378: 2355:— Preceding 2351: 2304:— Preceding 2301: 2278:— Preceding 2274: 2263:86.29.109.76 2258:And another 2257: 2241: 2238: 2216:— Preceding 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