5024:â and the discussion here shut off and hatted. Not only is it taking up far too much space on Corbyn's page but the issue has wider application too of course. The discussion here is, as ever, also going round in circles and generating fairly pointless rancour (I gave up well before some of my perfectly reasonable and practical observations started generating hilarious sarcastic gibes in response). I'd add FWIW that those participating who explicitly favour either constituent country or sovereign state on its own ought to realise that they are never going to get agreement for their preferred option: the "other" side will always have both the numbers and perfectly plausible arguments, based on precedent, guidance and the fact that the word country does indeed have different meanings, for which level of country should be used for UK bios. The debate here kicked off when UK was changed to England and then the country cleared out altogether. As I and others have consistently said, having both is the only realistic long-term option. It's a compromise in which both sides get their way, and which does not unnecessarily burden the infobox, while also being more informative overall. I still don't understand why such an obvious and simple solution is opposed with such vehemence and persistence. I get that some people would prefer the constituent country over the country-state, or vice-versa, but I don't get why they would be so adamant that the other has to be excised from the page. That's Knowledge (XXG) for you I guess.
1867:. Surely the intention behind the requirement to name the "country" is to specify the sovereign state, as would happen in 99% of WP bios. The fact that due to a quirk of nomenclature and history the UK, possibly uniquely, is a country that consists of other countries is not a reason to depart from consistent application of that basic principle and offer a special and potentially misleading get-out for UK-born people (all of them, not just Corbyn). England, or Wales or whatever, can be additional to it if necessary but should not replace UK. As others have noted, WP is an international resource. As for what's more precise or informative, surely "England, UK" is better on both counts than simply "England", and hardly that much more cumbersome. It seems a little odd that one or two people are being quite so insistent that these pages simply cannot have those extra two letters.
733:(Template: Infobox person) unambiguously states 'place of birth' should be shown as âcity, administrative region, countryâ. England is not a country (as in sovereign state). Let's remember that English nationalism and anti-UK sentiment is causing this dispute. As I stated in last RfC: "I strongly favour having the country (ie sovereign state) listed in the infobox. It is standard. The UK is a unitary state. Can you imagine US bios saying Born: "Houston, Texas"? Nationalism is a primary motivating factor here. Individuals born in the Soviet Union, almost without exception, list the country as Soviet Union". If England is a country please tell me why it's not listed on the
487:- You brits are such self-important pansies. You think the distinction between Wales/Scotland/England/N. Ireland actually matters, but guess what...... nobody but you actually cares. Hearing you folks whine about how there's a difference between a Scot and an English is tiresome to folks from countries less obsessed by cultural irrelevancies. The distinction you keep drawing between "England" and the "United Kingdom" only serves to confuse readers from countries that actually matter (like the US). Maybe if you quit the bickering and just called the whole thing the UK other countries would look to you for more than just royal baby news and Downton Abbey.
4155:
places in passing are unlikely to be consistent within themselves anyway - it depends entirely on context. The point is to be try to be consistent in principle as a matter of presentation on WP. The suggestion to include "country" in the infobox guidance is clearly, surely, intended to refer to the sovereign state. I can understand the argument that it might be unnecessary, but that seems trumped by that fact that it will add information and clarity for some readers, for the sake of two letters. And it's only controversial for those who choose to make it so.
3154:'UK'). The remainder all give just the country (equivalent to 'England'). I haven't been picky here; the only people I skipped including in this list are the ones whose place of birth is given as a political entity of some kind (country, sovereign state, overseas territory, dependency, protectorate...) that existed at the time of their birth but no longer exists (I thought that would be a needless complication). So why is 'England' so controversial when it's the almost-universal practice for other, similar countries?
4005:). I have looked at how reliable sources describe Chippenham. Broadsheet newspapers the world over refer to it as a location in England. Even those newspapers in North America, whom editors here seem to think would be easily confused by excluding the sovereign state, locate Chippenham in England. Of all the sources, I saw only one (a single blog from China, which is not a RS anyway) that said 'Chippenham, UK'. Some sources (particularly in NZ, India and Africa) say 'Chippenham, Wiltshire'. Here are some examples:
3306:
birthplace, though. Are you really suggesting that, "Abu Dhabi, UK" is the right birthplace for them? Just saying, "It should always be the sovereign state," as per many above, just doesn't work - that would make anyone born in
Australia before independence actually born in the UK. And then there's the argument to be had over when Australia became independent enough to not list the UK in birthplaces - is it 1901, 1926, 1930, 1931, 1939, 1942, 1948, 1968, 1973, 1975 or 1986?
1506:â since I see simply "UK" is interestingly not an option this time around. The sovereign state is included in instances involving every other country on the planet, so why the UK should be any different is an eyebrow raiser. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are not independent countries and any suggestion or implication to the contrary should be avoided at all times. The composition and political status of the UK is confusing enough for non-Brits as it is.
5125:
Increasing clarity by adding "UK" or "US" or "Canada", as appropriate, to infoboxes seems to come at a very low cost. But isn't it contextual? Since infoboxes are so compressed, maybe this shouldn't be in the infobox, but in the body. And most of us seem to think it superfluous in citations (e.g. "New York: Foobarbaz Press", not "New York City, New York, US: Foobarbaz Press"). I would think that this is a better question to settle at
Village Pump, or with a
686:, not just British. Therefore, seeing Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, Russia, France etc, in other bios, but not seeing the United Kingdom in British bios, can be confusing & misleading. In this article (for examlpe), we wouldn't want readers mistaking 'England' for the 'United Kingdom', which many Americans tend to do ;) Also, we don't want less informed readers thinking that England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland are sovereign states.
4253:
is an issue for some people, using both seems such an obvious and easy option, with the only real downside being that, to say it again, it adds all of two letters to an infobox. If that helps some 13 year olds in the US or the DRC, and avoids people fighting over whether it should be "England" or "United
Kingdom", I can't what the problem is or why it takes thousands of words of debate (OK, I'll stop adding to that now ..)
1159:
constituent country and a sovereign country. When you compare countries in the world, constituent countries are comparable between each others because they are part of a sovereign countries, but if you want to compare a constituent country with a sovereign country, they don't have the same attributes. At a global scale, the sovereign countries are the ones which are at the same level of representation and hierarchy.
2820:- We're never going to come to any agreement with "England vs UK" and will just keep going around in circles so to settle it once & for all (hopefully!) I think we should reach a compromise and use both ie "England, UK", As I found out in the previous RFC many articles define "administrative region, country" in different ways so IMHO we should just reach a compromise and go with the next best thing. â
4849:âSome of those opposing the compromise & still pushing for just 'England', have used the argument that England is a country or nation & therefore should be treated like Canada, Jamaica, Australia, etc etc.â you say. I haven't seen anyone saying 'England should be treated like Canada', or any other countries. I think you just made that up. Please provide the diffs to show you aren't lying.
425:(@Nomoskedasticity) Yet those who were quite happy to allow a disgraceful close were happy to have their preferred description in the Infobox. No-one has compelled you to participate in this. If you thought this RfC stupid, why are you here? By the way, are you displaying your childishness with your use of my username, or your incompetence?
68:) has been closed as 'no consensus'. A proposal made during the RfC should now be considered. Please note below how the location of Jeremy Corbyn's place of birth should best be described. The outcome of this RfC will be determined by weighing the merits of the arguments and assessing if they are consistent with Knowledge (XXG) policies.
624:- Racism? Last time I checked the British isles were predominately occupied by a single race of peoples. Regardless, I seem to have brushed against some folks wearing their cultural sensitivities on their sleeves. Sorta goes to show my point. This clearly means more to you guys than it does to anyone else. Get over it.
3395:: 'The Netherlands ... is the main "constituent country" ... of the Kingdom of the Netherlands'). It even has a note at the top explaining the difference. And all of the example articles for politicians I linked to above have infoboxes that wikilink to the constituent country, not to the sovereign state.
3953:
We obviously wouldn't identify
Francois Mitterand as being from "Jamac, Charente" because very few people would know Charente is part of France. While it seems find to include administrative sub-divisions like "England" the state should be included. The template obviously didn't anticipate this level
3551:
about the use of "sovereign state" for place of birth in info boxes? We'd have to change all the boxes for
Netherlands-born people too, would we? Or are you now saying that what is "commonly used" to describe a country is perfectly ok? You know, if we have the opportunity to help any 13-year olds who
3215:
treats them). Here we're talking about geographically contiguous home nations in a unitary state. The UAE is perhaps a closer comparison, and according to the examples above, bios do tend to append it to the constituent emirate. Adding two or three letters for clarity doesn't seem to me to be loading
1661:
Well you know, I realise it's an investment of a whole left mouse button press. One might hope that inquisitiveness might prompt a reader there. I think we kind of assume readers will click on links, don't we? I see a difference between "helping readers learn" and constantly cluttering infoboxes with
4252:
it's meant to refer to the sovereign state of course, or that it has to, but common usage in this sort of context and the fact that it will in 99% of "overseas" biographies, since most places don't have this naming quirk, surely points in that direction. And if which we should use in UK cases really
4154:
Saying "follow the sources" may superfically meet WP standards, but of course it's a fundamentally flawed approach in this sort of case. Firstly, WP infoboxes are not about narrative text in media articles. Secondly, different sources have different standards and styles, and media sources mentioning
3506:
Are editors suggesting that the comparison between
England and, say, Aruba, has to take geographical proximity or indeed cultural similarity into account? I thought the comparison was to be on a purely constitutional basis, i.e. that England is a constituent country of a sovereign state. Otherwise,
1541:
Well, (I thought obviously) instances of other infoboxes with country names in them. I did say "every other country", not "every other infobox". And yes, I am saying that non-Brits can be confused by the political status of the UK and its constituent countries. I have personally had to explain it to
4625:
Saying that reliable sources define the location of
Chippenham as England is neither here nor there. England is in the UK, so all those sources also confirm that Chippenham is in the UK. Reliable sources are no use in determining what is effectively a style issue. That isn't what WP:V and WP:RS are
2961:
That naming convention is referring to disambiguating between similarly named settlements within the UK, and doesn't seem relevant to this issue, which is connected to identity and nationality. I recommend anyone who believes that removing the constituent country to be culturally acceptable in such
1919:
Absolutely, although if we can expend this many words over the inclusion of two letters on one person's page, I dread to think what would happen in any search for a site-wide agreement. Especially given both legitimate problems re
Northern Ireland and the petty nationalism displayed by many editors
1361:
I already answered in the previous RfC that "The first (and all the followings) example of
Template:Infobox_officeholder/example is Lamar, Missouri, U.S.. We have even an example of London, United Kingdom for the death place." I also wrote you that "In my opinion, examples should also be considered
386:
as the obvious compromise that will enable us to overcome this stupid dispute. (Those who don't want to include "UK" would apparently prefer to perpetuate it...) The UK is a country and so including it as his birthplace is very much in accordance with our infobox policy. Interestingly, the UK is
4383:
So why does the consensus says "Disambiguation should not normally be to
England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland". Because this is the WP policy on this contentious question (I this the length of this RfC proves it IS contentious). Beyond news articles, look at common uses on sites sites like
3258:
Well that's perhaps an issue for wider debate, but as far as I am concerned, the reference to the country of birth must mean the sovereign state, per common usage and as it will in 99% of WP bios; plus otherwise it can mean anything. As for the observation about "half the content", it was a direct
3153:
Those are all political figures born in countries that are not sovereign states and the large majority give their birthplace in the infobox as the country, not the sovereign state. Of these 13 examples, one gives country and sovereign state (like 'England, UK') and one gives sovereign state (like
1586:
I realise that sovereign states can't be constituent countries in other sovereign states. I'm suggesting that if a reader doesn't know that England is part the UK, they can use an encyclopedia to find out. It might involve clicking on a blue link. Once they have learned that, they won't have to be
3210:
But if we're talking about consistency, it should be to a principle, not to other pages that may also be out of line, as it were. Also I'm not sure the Netherlands example, which has been cited previously, is analogous. Yes they are sometimes described as "constituent countries" which seem to be
1571:
OK. When someone writes an article and uses an infobox involving birth places / death places, he uses the name of the sovereign state. France. Belgium. Bolivia. Malaysia. Etc. There's no higher level to go to and it's clear and unambiguous for all readers. You appear to be saying we should avoid
1158:
I don't think you understood the question. Of course England and UK are countries. The question is which one is the most appropriate to include. You don't want to answer the question why England. I could answer : "UK is a country. Simple as.": we wouldn't go further. The difference is between a
3328:
I don't see any issue with the list as Cook Islands, Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten, Greenland, Faroe Islands are oversea territories; Ajman is a city and not a state in that context; UAE, Netherlands and Denmark are sovereign countries. England is neither an oversea territory, nor a city, nor a
3305:
I'm not sure the UAE discussion leads where you want; the ones I skipped because the entity they were born in doesn't exist any more were all from the UAE and were all, technically, born in the United Kingdom, since that was the sovereign state there at the time. None of them list UK as their
3031:
I don't buy the 'making it easier for anyone who doesn't know that England is in the UK' line. That's why we have hyperlinks. We don't explain every aspect of everything in every article - if we did, we'd end up with the whole encyclopedia in every article. Because this is so controversial,
2981:
But that's precisely the problem here: this isn't â or shouldn't be â about "identity". It's about noting a place of birth informatively and, ideally, according to consistent principles whether we're talking about Corbyn or anyone else. Also the proposal here is not to exclude the constituent
5124:
really know that Montana is part of the US and Manitoba is in Canada? That New Brunswick isn't part of New England? That New England and British Columbia aren't part of the UK? That Northern Ireland is? That Wales is a country-but-not-nation of the UK but that Cornwall is not? And so on.
2076:
I find the level of debate over this on the Jeremy Corbyn page unfathomable considering the same potential issue applies to over 600 other current politicians in Westminster alone, and if it matters this much it should be consistent (or at least a set of sensible guidelines, such preferring
2077:"Scotland, UK" for any Scot serving in the UK Parliament except nationalists who would identify as being born in "Scotland" alone). Meanwhile, nobody gets upset over how to describe Tim Farron (born Preston, England, UK) who was appointed leader of a UK party around the same time
3354:- Yes. I think folks are being a little naive when they say "Aruba is to the Kingdom of the Netherlands what Scotland is to the UK". There's a pretty distinct geographical and cultural difference between Aruba and the rest of the Netherlands. That's just not so for Scotland.
2845:- You mean, not everyone loves the circles? (sarc mark) But seriously, my suspicion is that Brits will heavily favor the "Country & Soveriegn" state method, while non-Brits will favor the other option. Which is exactly why we should be trying to pay more attention to
5133:
or some other venue, and not limited to UK-related determination. I agree that fighting it out article-by-article isn't very useful. We should just have a standard approach to being helpful-but-not-browbeating with regard to complex geographical locations.
3605:
re "Are you suggesting that Scotland and England have a homogeneous culture?" - No two places are totally culturally homogeneous. Texas has a culture distinct from the rest of the US, yet folks born in Dallas are still usually described as American before
2309:
claims "In casual usage, the terms "country", "nation", and "state" are often used as if they were synonymous; but in stricter usage they can be distinguished" there has been a 'citation needed' tag at the end of that claim since January 2011!
2427:
But specifically with regard to Corbyn, he doesnât lead the Labour Party in Scotland, or Wales, and the Labour Party doesnât even exist in Northern Ireland â so probably 'England' is the most appropriate country to consider here? BTW, I see
1572:
using "UK" for no other reason than we have a potentially confusing, lower-level alternative and we should use that, regardless of who may or may not understand the situation. Or do you actually believe that every reader will understand?
1404:
Indeed but it is "an explanatory supplement to the Neutral point of view (NPOV) policy" which is a policy. So "they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter". Let's follow this advice.
228:. The idea that the UK should be included "because he is the leader of a UK party" is irrelevant and absurd. We should apply the usual and long-established guidance, to include only England (or Scotland / Wales / NI) in these cases.
1992:
What else do Americans call themselves, besides Americans. What else do Canadians call themselves, besides Canadian. What else do Russian call themselves besides Russian, etc etc. Again, we're just going in circles here, you & I.
1304:
And the UK is a country. You know, a country in the sense that every other country in the world is a country â not a constituent country within another state. The point made above about a non-British-centric focus is extremely valid.
2759:- We're asking whether this is a discussion that should be had more broadly. In other words, for the UK peoples in general should there be a general rule. Where exactly Corbyn leads the labor party isn't all that relevant.
2324:
It should be clear cut. Neither England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are independent states. Anyways, I've been around the old 'pedia for over 10-yrs & believe me, I know how strong the resistance is to using
1340:
See the list below - for every other sovereign state made up of constituent countries, we list the constituent country, not the sovereign state. So, for every country in the world, we list country, not sovereign state.
4909:
might put an end to an insistence that UK is always added after any of its individual constituent counties. Or there might be some kind of compromise worked out that allowed long discussions like this one to be avoided.
542:
On a serious note though, these distinctions might be relevant within the UK, but they're less relevant and potentially confusing outside the UK. WP is written for the world. Not for the UK. Not even for the US.....
4285:
common usage. As for helping people in the US or China understand locations, clearly, newspaper editors in those countries don't believe that saying 'Chippenham, England' will cause such problems to their readers.
4815:
members? The CoN seems to have the United Kingdom as 'one' member & not E/W/S or E/W/S/NI as seperate members. The CoN doesn't appear to have any problems distinguishing between the meaning of country/nation.
1920:
on UK issues. Previous debates about consistency over what is meant by "nationality" in a UK context and how to present the information have never gone well, for example; nor have they ever reached a conclusion.
539:- Awwwww..... I'm sorry guys. I didn't mean to hurt feelings. It's not just the royal babies and Downton Abbey that we like. There's also Braveheart. Dr. Who is a little quirky but cool (and not too feudalistic).
2966:
and advise the assembled native patrons of said establishment that they weren't born in Wales but in the United Kingdom. I'd be happy to observe the proceedings, and would promise to call the ambulance quickly.
755:
Because there are several different definitions of "country" - of which "sovereign state" is just one. It may be the one which you personally prefer to use, but please don't purport to speak for other people.
4800:
Some of those opposing the compromise & still pushing for just 'England', have used the argument that England is a country or nation & therefore should be treated like Canada, Jamaica, Australia, etc
4885:
Some here, have suggested that this dispute should be expanded to Template infobox, with an Rfc begun there. I happen to agree with them, as this type of dispute is going to occur again & again in other
4368:
Look again at that guideline, which says, "By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called."
1556:
Sorry. I'm still not sure what you mean. Instances of what? Instances of not using a constituent country because there isn't one? Yes, I'd agree there are lots of those. There's no choice about what to use.
3698:" - No. Of course he isn't. But that's not the point. The point is, if Texas, like Scotland, has cultural identity and nationalist sentiment (which it does), why is someone born in Dallas born in "America"
1676:
Yes, it is a subjective thing. I don't think it's redundant at all. Certainly no more redundant than the constituent country. But that's why I'm advocating the presence of both. You know, as a compromise.
5099:
653:
because the sovereign state of birth should be indicated and England is not a sovereign state. England can be mentioned as it seems to matter for some readers and in order to reach a compromise.
2646:
Maybe the solution is indeed to replace in the template "city, administrative region, country" by "city, administrative region, sovereign state". It would avoid discussion on what is a country.
4281:
You cite common usage as if only your (uncited) opinion of that usage is noteworthy. Common usage clearly shows from those cited examples above, that defining Chippenham's location as England
2043:
Yes, those folks had a choice, for a second time, over whether to become a different national sovereignty, and voted against it. But they were never going to become a new constituent country.
3216:
too much detail in. And of course there's the counter reductio ad absurdum argument that if we say "oh, everyone knows that", we needn't bother including half the content on many WP pages.
578:- I like to think I was being necessarily rude. There was a serious point. The distinction between the UK and England might not be particularly useful for a general/international audience.
115:- Interesting lack of self-awareness in the absurdity of what you are saying. You are saying, correctly, that the country should be included. Per the International Standards Organisation's
1587:
constantly reminded, in a somewhat irritatingly redundant way, that England is always followed by "UK". There are no other countries called England. Quite an easy concept to learn really.
2242:
Just to be clear, the debate is only on British bios? Because for other countries there is no debate, we use the sovereign country so I don't see the point of making an exception for UK.
945:
To all those supporting England: It seems you set at the same importance constituents and sovereign countries. Could you explain why? It would help to understand why you support England.
1013:
If you decline to consider that sovereign countries like UK exist (that's what I understand when you write "I get as far as England, and just stop there", it will be difficult to have a
3287:
I acknowledge that your "counter reductio ad absurdum argument" comment was a response. Yes, wider debate, not just focusing on "13 year olds in the US or the DRC", is probably wise.
1727:
Two examples? That should cover everything, then? And are those examples, exemplars or directions? Do they tell us that, while US States are required, English counties are forbidden?
1601:
Knowledge (XXG) is an on-line encyclopedia. Why not make it easier for non-British readers to find out here, that England is a part of the United Kingdom. Why make them check a book?
1136:- The difference between a "sovereign state" and a "country" is one that's going to be different for Brits than for everyone else. You're looking at it from a Brit-centric viewpoint.
4313:
Nobody has yet shown me a source, that proves that England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland are sovereign states (i.e independent). It's too bad that attempts are being made to
1542:
non-Brits more times than I care to remember. People overseas aren't born with this knowledge. (p.s. No I'm not, because mass changes of that type are not allowed per consensus)
1662:
redundant information. I guess that's a subjective thing. I don't even know how one would find suitable novices to use as subjects in an experimentally robust testing paradigm.
90:(Template: Infobox person) shows 'place of birth' should be shown as âcity, administrative region, countryâ i.e. Chippenham, Wiltshire, England. Anything further is redundant.
3259:
response to the point about having to put the entire encyclopedia in every article, and you surely noted I have already acknowledged that it, too, was an exaggerated point?
2225:
I doubt we'll get anywhere, but the conversation is probably worth having. If for nothing else than to highlight how silly some of the sentiments surrounding the issue are.
1695:, where a more useful and wide-ranging consensus might be achieved. Is there something special about Corbyn, or is it just because he's most recently arrived as a leader?
4994:. I was suggesting it as a possibility for all bio articles not just this one. But perhaps we shouldn't bother and just do it over and over again for all UK politicians.
4347:
3571:
2940:
2932:
4230:
is not something you can choose to ignore if you don't like what they say, it is a fundamental principle for all Knowledge (XXG) articles, and that includes anywhere in
931:
as a descriptive, would help non-British readers. Anyways, I'll leave that up to others. I got enough bangs over the head in the past, when I strongly pushed for this.
2699:
Indeed it would solve the problem. But, I know from experience, that there would be many editors who'd dig in their heals & oppose such a change to that template.
557:
Can't speak for anyone else, but my feelings weren't hurt. If you think this doesn't matter and you don't care, why are you here? Is it just to be unnecessarily rude?
2877:, and accepting that, for many people living within the United Kingdom, the constituent countries are more defining in terms of identity than the sovereign state.
144:, would you show a little humility? This is an encyclopaedia. You should expect to discover information about which you were not previously aware. You're welcome.
4890:
bio infoboxes. Getting 'country' changed to 'sovereign state' at that Template, would put an end to opposition against adding the United Kingdom/UK to infoboxes.
4090:
1709:
Because the examples given are quite clear : first example in the template is "Lamar, Missouri, U.S." and the example of death place is "London, United Kingdom".
4066:
2164:
4034:
446:
depends on your definition of country I guess, but the state (i.e. the UK) seems to be what was intended to be meant by âcity, administrative region, countryâ
4579:
defining the location of Chippenham as England, shown above, were written for non-British readers. I am sure others did, without it having to be pointed out.
3920:: I think this is a more complex question than what to do at this article, with this particular infobox, or with regard to just the UK. More below in the
2358:- The strong resistance probably reflects Brit's weird sense of self-identity. Which, again, is why the way we're currently doing this is a violation of
4074:
3211:
technically part of the kingdom, but they're more akin to British Overseas Territories, geographically and politically etc (that's how for example the
2530:, I meant "premiership". Apologies for making that spelling mistake which has thrown you so badly. I was referring to your statement "he'll become the
1643:
Exactly. We are not in the business of making readers look something up when it can be so easily explained. "England" shouldn't be linked anyway, per
4121:
3745:
has multiple meanings. Therefore, just because E/W/S/NI are called countries? that doesn't mean they belong on equal footing with sovereign states.
2291:
Not the same type of country though, as the UK, Russia, Canada, Brazil, Japan, etc etc. Something that Knowledge (XXG) should be making more clear.
3556:, we should take it, shouldnât we? (... although it would be better if it could invent a two-letter name for itself to fit better in our infobox).
4742:
as a reason to push England onto the same stage as Japan, Norway, Italy, Russia etc etc? Then have the Template Rfc. Afterall, there can only be
1691:
I think you make some valid points. And I respect you for seeking a compromise. I'm now wondering why we're having this debate here and not at
819:
I think we 'might' be getting to the 'core' of the problems here. IMHO, England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland should be described as
2846:
2359:
1387:
1256:
1151:
5280:
Responding to RFC 12th March. Follows wiki set structure. US bios don't list state even though many states are far larger than whole of UK.
4944:
You want a compromise? What the fuck?? If you want a compromise, then compromise -- don't resist it by perpetuating this sort of dispute.
3492:
Are you suggesting that Scotland and England have a homogeneous culture? I'm not sure I'd say so in downtown Glasgow on a Saturday night.
2531:
2512:
is. But, I do know that you aren't gonna convince me to support your preference & I'm not gonna convince you to support my preference.
2459:
4001:
No, it isn't. Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (per
1948:
A site-wide agreement attempt? It's likely that nobody knows better then I, what kinda resistance there is out there, to using the terms
140:
A lack of self-awareness? Perhaps. Though what that has to do with you is another question. So, if the ISO defined England as a country,
4502:
Very sad, our non-British readers are being deprived of such valuable info, due to such stiff resistance by some to add 'two' letters -
3059:
1978:? In the same way that they can't show any preference in using the name of their constituent county instead of their sovereign country?
4106:
3795:
has multiple meanings. England is within a sovereign state called the United Kingdom & there's no sources that can repudiate that.
871:... or a competent dictionary if you prefer. The idea that England is not a country, is, frankly, too silly to be taken seriously.
5237:
4761:
4626:
all about. Perhaps those in favour of excising "UK" from infoboxes should try an RfC aimed at banning its use. See how far that gets.
4332:
And nobody has yet shown me a Knowledge (XXG) guideline that requires "sovereign state" to be used for place of birth in the infobox.
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field in the bio box for people born in the modern day UK read UK or the name of the subnational entity in which they were born?".
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1824:- the failure to include any other of the options in this RFC is in my view a fatal flaw thus rendering any result invalid. --
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OK Thanks I understand that you live and fight for England but WP is a global encyclopedia. Any other more neutral feedback?
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Folks born in Dallas are described as American before Texan because Texan is not a nationality, and Texas is not a country.
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should apply: "Disambiguation should not normally be to England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland". The correct title is
1536:(p.s. you're going to be very busy adding "UK" to all examples of those, as places of birth, in all relevant BLP articles?)
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If one tenth of the effort spent "discussing" here were spent clarifying matters at a template RfC, this kind of argument
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where you will find that official names used are Denmark and Netherlands for those two kingdoms, same when you click on
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Netherlands and Denmark are not "sovereign countries", as you'd know if you'd bothered to look up the linked articles.
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Provided they "dug in their heals & opposed" for good reasons, that would be ok, wouldn't it? But I think you mean
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If only you'd told us at the start. Looks like it's time for RfC No 3. Except it shouldn't even be placed here at all?
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is not a 'policy cite' ("This essay is not a Knowledge (XXG) policy or guideline"). Please don't portray it as such.
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I don't see it as a choice. I get as far as England, and just stop there. That's not to say I can't also blame the
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it is evident some people are confused about the difference between a sovereign country and a constituent country.
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I don't think anyone questions its reliability - but it uses one particular definition. Other definitions exist.
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British bio articles infoboxes, to make things clearer for non-British readers. Unfortunately, its' not up to me.
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Sorry, didn't realise you had given up. Can editors at least agree the best venue for a higher level discussion?
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These are the official examples of the templates yes; and certainly England, U.K. is aligned with Missouri, U.S.
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Personally, I don't think it's necessary to have such an Rfc. But, since there's some editors determined to use
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Just clarifying to JezGrov, that the UK Labour Party covers all of the United Kingdom, not just England. As for
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I reckon these discussions would be quite nasty, if they involved Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland :(
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And (strangely enough) US editors are unable to exhibit any comparable resistance to using terms other than
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How about making it as easy as possible for readers, to learn that England is a part of the United Kingdom?
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What "instances" are these? You're saying non-Brits will be confused by the use of the word "England", yes?
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Even if it were relevant (which it isn't) whether England is or is not a sovereign state, it is a country
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the United Kingdom/UK from our non-British readers, who make up a majority of Knowledge (XXG) readers :(
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Where is this "principle" established? Your "half the content on many WP pages" is a complete straw man.
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doesn't ask for "sovereign state", does it? And you don't need UK, because there are no other Englands.
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So there is a disconnect/ inconsistency with how Knowledge (XXG) treats the status of UK with that of
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There aren't any other Wiltshires either but I guess you're not suggesting leaving it at "Wiltshire".
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This should be dealt with in a more general forum â either at the infobox template or on a page like
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the same as England, so there's no redundancy; Dairarego's contribution is mistaken in this respect.
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Yes, that sounds extremely reasonable. One of the most sensible comments in this entire discussion.
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has sensibly suggested, this issue should be resolved at template level. Perhaps a friendly passing
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may I ask what other definitions exist? Your one? Is that on the same reliability level of the ISO?
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Chippenham in Wiltshire is certainly much bigger, and better known than the one in Cambridgeshire.
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If you're born in England, you're also born in UK. If you're born in Aruba, you're not born in the
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I realise this list is not exhaustive; if anyone else wants to pursue this survey further, I found
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will hat this discussion and we can then open an RfC at the Template Talk page and go from there.
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there's not going to be consistency here. But a quick scout around for similar situations shows:
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2126:- That's true. This probably isn't the right place to be asking some of these broader questions.
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Do you deny that a "constituent country" is a form of country? The term indicates that it is.
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was born in Dubai, UAE (and looks like the bad guy out of some children's film in that photo...)
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3776:. That's why we should show Jeremy Corbyn's place of birth as 'Chippenham, Wiltshire, England'
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as best practices if they are not challenged for good reasons". And you didn't answer to that.
823:(an argument I've put forward, for several years now) in order to avoid confusion for readers.
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Not sure I even have a strong opinion about this. It comes up a lot for US states, too. Does
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I'm glad we can agree that Corbyn's hypothetical future as UK Prime Minister is an irrelevant
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I'm not disappointed. I think it's clear now we have no factual opposition for "England, UK".
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would need an update, as it starts "England is a country that is part of the United Kingdom"?
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4234:. And it only became controversial here when someone changed the Infobox from England to UK.
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You're not convincing me of anything. Concentrate on convincing the others who've opted for
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So you say ... time and time and time again. Yet even you might have noticed that all those
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Generally I think the International Standards Organisation is pretty reliable to be honest.
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603:. Your 'serious point' was lost in the crass, rude and, quite frankly, unacceptable racism.
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I never said it wasn't a country. I said it was a constituent country. Did you miss that?
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Not at all. I am saying that verifiable reliable sources (per the Knowledge (XXG) policy
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where do you draw the line - language? ethnic composition? religion? currency etc., etc.
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is internationally renowned, but we still use British English within his article, as per
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Leader of the opposition. If his party wins the next general election? he'll become the
287:(not infoboxes, I concede - though there's no real reason why they should differ) is at
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2193:- I reckon you're right. But that doesn't mean we should shy away from the discussion.
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is exactly the point. This stuff shouldn't be written in a way only relevant to Brits.
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have escaped from North Korea, to learn about the constitutional arrangements in the
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PS- You should concentrate on convincing the others of your arguments. You & I
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in her infobox, too. My primary goal is to clarify things for non-British readers.
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apply here? You suggested it was usual and long-established. That's absolute crap.
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And to answer your question more directly. Yes. I think Scotland and England are
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Saying "follow the sources" doesn't âsuperfically meet WP standards <sic: -->
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the sovereign state. As well, Corbyn is the Leader of the Opposition in the
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In that case, I suggest you will have no problem in getting it clarified at
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My past experience on this topic, tells me that some who oppose adding the
4183:(e/c) "...clearly, surely, intended to refer to the sovereign state..."
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Consider the term "constituent country". The clue is in the second word.
2277:
England IS a country - as noted in the first sentence of its WP article...
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are constituent countries within those kingdoms (eg the first sentence of
1899:
It seems that the discussion is wholly misplaced here, when it belongs to
510:". It's a shame "royal baby news and Downton Abbey" are so archetypically
3891:
2534:." You think place of birth should be decided by possible future career?
2486:? Do we look to an opinion poll to gauge how likely is that premiershio?
465:"I guess"... "seems to be"... Well, that's definitive enough, then.
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trip advisor sites or rental house companies, they use Chippenham, UK.
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We're already departing from the template advice by using Wiltshire?
180:- because that's not what the template guidance says at the moment.
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define the location of Chippenham as England, showing common usage.
4348:
Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#United_Kingdom
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where Wilthshire is the ceremonial county in case of England as per
2933:
Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#United_Kingdom
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I wouldn't object, if this infobox discussion was expanded to cover
682:
Parliament (House of Commons). We must respect that our readers are
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Sorry to prolong the pain here. But where are you going with this
1202:
601:
Knowledge (XXG):Talk page guidelines#Behavior that is unacceptable
5102:
a interesting source of lively informed debate?" Has our friend
3547:
I quite agree. But I thought somebody had proposed some kind of
5084:
Template Infobox would be best. UKNATS, is a disaster zone ;)
2847:
Knowledge (XXG):Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus
2360:
Knowledge (XXG):Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus
2228:
Anyone want to weigh-in on the best place to have the debate?
1257:
Knowledge (XXG):Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus
1152:
Knowledge (XXG):Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus
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Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#England
2891:
Perhaps, but this personnality is internationally reknowned.
2409:- re "only on British bios" - Yes. Question is - "Should the
323:
Don't use one WP article as the basis for another article.
162:. I think that is the authoritative statement on the matter.
3867:
Consider the term "constituent country". The clue is in the
3398:
Once again, I encourage you to look at the official UN list
2873:
Though there is also a case for regarding this as a form of
2490:
makes a valid point, but we're looking here at where he was
963:
You mean "all those supporting just England", don't you (?)
5260:
4720:
Should be a lively debate, then, especially if you're from
34:
Should the Infobox show Jeremy Corbyn's place of birth as '
4924:
I'm glad you agree that England is a constituent country.
4764:
at countless other bio articles. But it seems you fear a
4746:
results - change to sovereign state, or keep as country.
3659:
a country? News to me. Do you have any sources for that?
3460:
This article is about the constituent country within the
3453:
Er, I can't vouch for what you see, but when I click on
1326:- I'm only jealous that we don't have any royal babies.
1255:- Ding, ding, ding! Wykx gets today's best policy cite.
66:
RfC: for place of birth in the infobox -- England or UK?
4863:
I apologize for that statement, consider it retracted.
1615:
Oh yes, so it is. Did I mention a blue link somewhere?
2962:
situations, to go into a public bar in somewhere like
1115:
calls for a country. England is a country. Simple as.
735:
International Standards Organisation country code list
3572:
Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)
2211:
British bio infoboxes? then I'll go along with it :)
4526:
But not-aligned with geographical name WP policy...
1276:
England is relevant the world over, or so I'm told.
4831:The infobox template advice says nothing about the
2793:One of your best, I fear. Although don't confuse a
1773:Come on, there are two Chippenham in England, UK.
907:a country? Thank you for... umm... clarifying.
5173:and look... I didn't even say "what the fuck"...
1071:Sorry to disappoint you. And I'd certainly never
3918:"England, UK" somewhere, not necessarily infobox
3044:was born in Ajman, not the United Arab Emirates.
2982:country, but simply about adding "UK" after it.
158:The ISO does not define England as a country at
4200:(in Wiltshire) is the PRIMARY TOPIC, isn't it.
4067:"Chippenham, dans le sud-ouest de l'Angleterre"
4035:"Chippenham, dans le sud-ouest de l'Angleterre"
3525:, which refers to a constituent country of the
409:(How many countries called England are there?)
4990:Thanks for that overwhelmingly strong show of
3038:was born in the Cook Islands, not New Zealand.
3195:twice already. Thanks for pointing this out.
2207:If you all wish to expand this Rfc, to cover
8:
5208:- Let's move it template infobox! Let's go!
4964:The compromise offered here at this Rfc, is
3641:I would advise not saying that to a Texan.
2305:Hmmm, but it isn't that clear cut. Although
1035:I'm pretty sure they exist, But we'll cross
977:Yes, including you ;) Maybe you can answer?
337:Hold on - that's what you suggested though.
2446:However, the party that Corbyn leads, is a
2432:'s info box says she was born in Scotland.
5259:It gives a percise location in within the
3974:TBH folks, if it were up to me, we'd have
5305:? But it's just size that matters, yes?
3613:homogeneous than are Aruba and Holland.
3439:? This should be corrected in some way?
2163:Don't worry, they're all crying over in
867:Not my definition - I suggest you read
3774:template documentation for this Infobox
3128:was born in the Faroe Islands, not the
1956:in the infoboxes of (strangely enough)
1201:, wasn't he, but his article just says
1177:I don't think you understand my reply.
4698:, will fight to the dagger to prevent
3791:Again, you're refusing to accept that
3458:
2494:. He was quite small then, wasn't he?
1293:- don't bring your jealousy here! lol.
526:p.s. but thanks for the lower case b.
4226:â. It is Knowledge (XXG)'s standard.
351:No - I suggested that we look at the
7:
3823:...and the issue in the first word.
2532:Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
2460:Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
4706:, in that proposed Template Rfc :(
3060:Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands
119:the United Kingdom is the country.
5238:Template talk:Infobox officeholder
4905:Or getting "country" clarified as
3108:was born in Sint Maarten, not the
1693:Template talk:Infobox officeholder
508:Loving Hands Across the Pond Award
24:
4445:I might give that contribution a
4403:That's cos Corbyn ain't no white
4091:"Chippenham (sur de Inglaterra)"
2454:political party. Also, he's the
1289:Just because you don't have any
5106:not set everyone straight yet?
4803:I was just wondering, does the
4099:"Chippenham, southwest England"
4059:âChippenham, southwest Englandâ
4011:"Chippenham, southwest England"
3921:
3118:was born in Greenland, not the
4640:Such an Rfc wouldn't succeed.
4051:âChippenham, southern Englandâ
3692:Are you suggesting that Texas
3655:Are you suggesting that Texas
3142:were born in Denmark, not the
731:Documentation for this Infobox
88:Documentation for this Infobox
30:RfC: Place of birth in Infobox
1:
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4150:11:55, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
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4122:"Chippenham, western England"
3996:18:35, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
3946:20:40, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
3925:
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3881:13:57, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
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2909:That doesn't alter my point.
2905:08:50, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
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2450:political party, not just an
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4021:(paywall for full article);
3529:commonly named Netherlands.
3048:Hamad bin Mohammed Al Sharqi
2937:Chippenham, Wilthshire, U.K.
1225:Template talk:Infobox person
1113:Template talk:Infobox person
253:- long established you say?
178:Template talk:Infobox person
3574:and it is aligned with it.
3042:Humaid bin Rashid Al Nuaimi
702:Though I prefer using just
5337:
5315:22:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
5290:22:28, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
4202:Chippenham, Cambridgeshire
3570:I say we have to stick to
3554:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3527:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3462:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3433:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3377:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3110:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3100:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3086:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3072:Kingdom of the Netherlands
3050:was born in Fujairah, UAE.
1073:live and fight for England
5273:23:33, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
5250:23:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
4423:UK 1 point - England 0Â ?
4204:appears at the DAB page.
4075:"Chippenham, Inghilterra"
4023:The Sydney Morning Herald
3964:05:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
2464:First Minister of England
2074:Resolve at template level
997:past 500 years of history
3173:a useful starting place.
2025:but they are Canadians.
903:So... you agree that it
674:- as the United Kingdom
506:Winner of this month's "
4833:Commonwealth of Nations
4805:Commonwealth of Nations
3383:are sovereign states.
3136:Margrethe II of Denmark
3054:Saud bin Saqr al Qasimi
2099:British bio infoboxes.
2023:Quebec_referendum,_1995
1179:Template:Infobox person
5129:-advertised RfC at at
4702:from being changed to
4095:The New Zealand Herald
3413:, you don't go to UK.
2333:in (strangely enough)
1107:UK is unnecessary. As
599:Then you need to read
4558:agree on this topic.
4114:"Chippenham, England"
4107:"Chippenham, England"
4083:"CHIPPENHAM, England"
4043:"Chippenham, Englandâ
4027:"Chippenham, England"
4019:"Chippenham, England"
2007:They have no choice.
1291:constituent countries
1227:calls for a country?
1150:Exactly aligned with
821:constituent countries
3886:Are nouns currently
3409:. When you click on
3191:Yes, I've mentioned
3140:Lars LĂžkke Rasmussen
2931:Indeed that's where
2508:I don't know what a
1954:United Kingdom or UK
1952:in the intros &
1423:Hear hear! Well put
1039:when we come to it.
4124:. Hope this helps.
4007:Buenos Aires Herald
3213:BBC Country Profile
3171:Constituent country
3126:Aksel V. Johannesen
3092:Lucille George-Wout
305:I'm sorry how does
4678:non-involved admin
4039:The Globe and Mail
3890:adjectives in the
3437:Kingdom of Denmark
3381:Kingdom of Denmark
3144:Kingdom of Denmark
3130:Kingdom of Denmark
3120:Kingdom of Denmark
2577:? she should have
2376:You mean "weird".
1223:Well no, because
448:Absolutelypuremilk
64:The previous RfC (
18:Talk:Jeremy Corbyn
5174:
5098:Surely you mean "
5046:
4461:
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4275:
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3906:
3329:sovereign state.
3281:
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1942:
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1822:None of the above
1294:
1274:Ding, ding, ding!
1206:
1111:has pointed out,
527:
477:
5328:
5207:
5172:
5154:
5104:User:SMcCandlish
5043:
5037:
5030:
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4946:Nomoskedasticity
4881:Infobox Template
4762:might be avoided
4577:reliable sources
4532:
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1197:was born in the
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837:Agree with that
659:
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393:Nomoskedasticity
259:Margaret Beckett
252:
139:
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50:, England, UK'?
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4704:sovereign state
4672:Or perhaps, as
4528:
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4118:Chicago Tribune
4111:Washington Post
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2795:tangerine dream
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2575:Nicola Sturgeon
2430:Nicola Sturgeon
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4346:Look again at
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3976:United Kingdom
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4405:trailer trash
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4248:Well I can't
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4232:article space
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3066:were born in
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2725:
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2718:, don't you.
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2263:, etc., etc?
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1038:
1034:
1033:
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1028:
1024:
1022:
1016:
1012:
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1010:
1006:
1002:
999:, of course.
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984:
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883:
882:
878:
874:
870:
866:
865:
864:
860:
856:
850:
842:
836:
835:
834:
830:
826:
822:
818:
812:
808:
804:
800:
797:
795:
791:
787:
783:
782:
781:
777:
773:
769:
768:
767:
763:
759:
754:
753:
752:
751:
748:
744:
740:
736:
732:
728:
724:
721:
720:
717:
713:
709:
705:
701:
700:
697:
693:
689:
685:
684:international
681:
677:
673:
670:
668:
664:
660:
658:
652:
649:
648:
635:
631:
627:
621:
616:
615:
614:
610:
606:
602:
596:
591:
590:
589:
585:
581:
575:
570:
569:
568:
564:
560:
556:
555:
554:
550:
546:
541:
536:
531:
530:
525:
521:
517:
513:
509:
504:
503:
502:
501:
498:
494:
490:
486:
483:
482:
476:
472:
468:
463:
462:
461:
460:
457:
453:
449:
445:
442:
441:
436:
432:
428:
424:
423:
420:
416:
412:
408:
407:
406:
405:
402:
398:
394:
390:
385:
382:
381:
366:
362:
358:
354:
350:
349:
348:
344:
340:
336:
335:
334:
330:
326:
322:
321:
320:
316:
312:
308:
304:
303:
302:
298:
294:
290:
286:
282:
278:
277:
276:
272:
268:
264:
260:
256:
250:
245:
244:
243:
242:
239:
235:
231:
227:
224:
222:
218:
214:
210:
206:
203:
202:
191:
187:
183:
179:
175:
174:
173:
169:
165:
161:
157:
156:
155:
151:
147:
143:
137:
132:
131:
130:
126:
122:
118:
112:
107:
106:
105:
104:
101:
97:
93:
89:
85:
82:
81:
80:
79:
75:
71:
67:
62:
61:
57:
53:
49:
45:
41:
37:
29:
27:
19:
5282:Isthisuseful
5277:
5256:
5191:
5138:
5131:WT:MOSLAYOUT
5033:
5026:
4965:
4887:
4884:
4812:
4811:members? or
4808:
4799:
4798:
4743:
4739:
4703:
4699:
4695:
4594:
4555:
4551:
4529:
4503:
4479:
4426:
4387:
4353:
4314:
4312:
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4262:
4255:
4249:
4164:
4157:
4117:
4110:
4102:
4094:
4086:
4078:
4070:
4062:
4054:
4046:
4038:
4030:
4022:
4014:
4006:
3983:
3982:included in
3979:
3975:
3973:
3954:of parsing.
3950:
3928:
3917:
3868:
3826:
3792:
3767:
3742:
3703:
3699:
3695:
3691:
3656:
3610:
3577:
3548:
3532:
3467:Don't you?
3459:
3416:
3332:
3268:
3261:
3225:
3218:
3094:was born in
3080:was born in
3028:
2991:
2984:
2946:
2936:
2894:
2828:
2823:
2817:
2789:
2698:
2649:
2578:
2572:
2509:
2491:
2463:
2455:
2451:
2447:
2411:Country Born
2410:
2334:
2330:
2326:
2245:
2208:
2096:
2073:
2028:
2021:Not at all:
1975:
1957:
1953:
1949:
1929:
1922:
1900:
1876:
1869:
1864:
1826:
1821:
1776:
1744:
1712:
1503:
1487:
1426:
1408:
1365:
1162:
1092:
1056:
1020:
980:
948:
928:
904:
891:AusLondonder
855:AusLondonder
772:AusLondonder
739:AusLondonder
726:
722:
703:
683:
679:
675:
671:
656:
650:
484:
443:
388:
383:
352:
339:AusLondonder
311:AusLondonder
284:
267:AusLondonder
263:Gordon Brown
225:
204:
164:AusLondonder
136:AusLondonder
121:AusLondonder
83:
63:
33:
25:
5223:Go for it.
5139:SMcCandlish
4966:England, UK
4595:England, UK
4055:Cyprus Mail
4047:China Daily
3951:England, UK
3929:SMcCandlish
3922:#Discussion
3680:- True dat.
3549:strict rule
3523:Netherlands
3455:Netherlands
3407:Netherlands
3393:Netherlands
3385:Netherlands
3116:Kim Kielsen
3068:Netherlands
2818:England, UK
1865:England, UK
1504:England, UK
1488:England, UK
1199:Netherlands
1037:that bridge
929:constituent
869:our article
727:England, UK
672:England, UK
651:England, UK
444:England, UK
384:England, UK
307:WP:CIRCULAR
281:WP:CIRCULAR
5297:? Are you
4851:Daicaregos
4581:Daicaregos
4574:verifiable
4556:never will
4552:never have
4490:Daicaregos
4483:verifiable
4371:Daicaregos
4288:Daicaregos
4236:Daicaregos
4198:Chippenham
4126:Daicaregos
4065:, France:
4041:, Canada:
4033:, Canada:
3970:Discussion
3778:Daicaregos
3706:"the UK"?
3696:a country?
3686:Daicaregos
3661:Daicaregos
3629:Daicaregos
3601:GoldenRing
3494:GoldenRing
3469:GoldenRing
3308:GoldenRing
3175:GoldenRing
3156:GoldenRing
3098:, not the
3084:, not the
3070:, not the
3064:Mark Rutte
3036:Henry Puna
2964:Caernarfon
2911:Tony Blair
2598:dead heron
2462:, not the
1493:-- BOD --
1392:Daicaregos
1388:That essay
1343:GoldenRing
620:Daicaregos
605:Daicaregos
574:Daicaregos
559:Daicaregos
427:Daicaregos
255:Tony Blair
209:Daicaregos
160:ISO 3166-1
146:Daicaregos
117:ISO 3166-1
111:Daicaregos
92:Daicaregos
70:Daicaregos
52:Daicaregos
44:Chippenham
36:Chippenham
4089:, Spain:
4073:, Italy:
4063:L'Express
4031:La Presse
3956:LavaBaron
3924:section.
3193:Mike Eman
3078:Mike Eman
2915:WP:ENGVAR
2875:WP:ENGVAR
2841:Davey2010
2261:Mike Eman
2165:Sheffield
1903:UK BLPs?
1195:Mike Eman
207:, as per
142:(page 27)
48:Wiltshire
40:Wiltshire
5122:everyone
4674:Dtellett
4185:Ghmyrtle
3888:trumping
3843:Ghmyrtle
3811:Ghmyrtle
2755:JezGrove
2488:JezGrove
2434:JezGrove
2312:JezGrove
2279:JezGrove
2122:Dtellett
2079:Dtellett
1976:American
1645:WP:OLINK
1109:Ghmyrtle
909:Ghmyrtle
873:Ghmyrtle
849:Ghmyrtle
786:Ghmyrtle
758:Ghmyrtle
467:Ghmyrtle
357:Ghmyrtle
353:guidance
325:Ghmyrtle
293:Ghmyrtle
285:for text
249:Ghmyrtle
230:Ghmyrtle
182:Ghmyrtle
5257:England
5225:GoodDay
5202:, and
5200:GoodDay
5127:WP:CENT
5086:GoodDay
4970:GoodDay
4926:GoodDay
4907:country
4892:GoodDay
4888:British
4865:GoodDay
4818:GoodDay
4748:GoodDay
4740:country
4722:Arizona
4708:GoodDay
4700:country
4642:GoodDay
4599:GoodDay
4560:GoodDay
4508:GoodDay
4319:GoodDay
3988:GoodDay
3873:GoodDay
3797:GoodDay
3793:country
3747:GoodDay
3743:Country
3411:England
3403:Denmark
3389:Denmark
3096:Curaçao
3029:England
2799:red one
2797:with a
2701:GoodDay
2583:GoodDay
2528:GoodDay
2526:Sorry,
2514:GoodDay
2484:GoodDay
2468:GoodDay
2452:English
2448:British
2354:GoodDay
2339:GoodDay
2335:British
2327:British
2293:GoodDay
2213:GoodDay
2189:GoodDay
2148:GoodDay
2101:GoodDay
1995:GoodDay
1962:GoodDay
1958:British
1950:British
1631:GoodDay
1603:GoodDay
1015:WP:NPOV
933:GoodDay
927:Adding
841:GoodDay
825:GoodDay
799:England
708:GoodDay
688:GoodDay
680:British
512:English
226:England
205:England
84:England
5301:about
5295:Really
5210:NickCT
4992:WP:AGF
3892:WP:MoS
3871:word.
3708:NickCT
3690:- re "
3615:NickCT
3606:Texan.
3488:NickCT
3457:I see
3356:NickCT
2851:NickCT
2761:NickCT
2415:NickCT
2364:NickCT
2337:bios.
2329:&
2230:NickCT
2195:NickCT
2128:NickCT
1960:bios.
1433:NickCT
1383:NickCT
1328:NickCT
1261:NickCT
1138:NickCT
626:NickCT
595:NickCT
580:NickCT
545:NickCT
489:NickCT
265:- UK.
261:- UK.
257:- UK.
5265:âââââ§
5042:edits
4813:55/56
4807:have
4506:. :(
4271:edits
4250:prove
4173:edits
4079:Today
4003:WP:RS
3869:first
3770:WP:RS
3277:edits
3234:edits
3082:Aruba
3000:edits
2824:Davey
2716:heels
1938:edits
1885:edits
1243:(ec)
1203:Aruba
16:<
5311:talk
5303:that
5299:sure
5286:talk
5269:talk
5246:talk
5229:talk
5214:talk
5204:N-HH
5166:talk
5112:talk
5100:it's
5090:talk
5058:talk
5036:talk
5029:N-HH
5000:talk
4974:talk
4950:talk
4930:talk
4916:talk
4896:talk
4869:talk
4855:talk
4841:talk
4822:talk
4801:etc.
4774:talk
4752:talk
4730:talk
4712:talk
4686:talk
4646:talk
4632:talk
4603:talk
4585:talk
4564:talk
4554:and
4536:talk
4530:Wykx
4512:talk
4494:talk
4455:talk
4447:half
4433:talk
4427:Wykx
4413:talk
4394:talk
4388:Wykx
4375:talk
4360:talk
4354:Wykx
4338:talk
4323:talk
4315:hide
4292:talk
4265:talk
4258:N-HH
4240:talk
4210:talk
4189:talk
4167:talk
4160:N-HH
4146:talk
4130:talk
3992:talk
3960:talk
3900:talk
3877:talk
3847:talk
3833:talk
3827:Wykx
3815:talk
3801:talk
3782:talk
3751:talk
3712:talk
3665:talk
3647:talk
3633:talk
3619:talk
3611:more
3584:talk
3578:Wykx
3562:talk
3539:talk
3533:Wykx
3513:talk
3498:talk
3473:talk
3445:talk
3435:and
3423:talk
3417:Wykx
3405:and
3387:and
3379:and
3371:Wykx
3360:talk
3350:Wykx
3339:talk
3333:Wykx
3312:talk
3293:talk
3271:talk
3264:N-HH
3250:talk
3228:talk
3221:N-HH
3201:talk
3179:talk
3160:talk
3138:and
3062:and
2994:talk
2987:N-HH
2973:talk
2953:talk
2947:Wykx
2923:talk
2901:talk
2895:Wykx
2883:talk
2855:talk
2829:2010
2807:talk
2765:talk
2724:talk
2705:talk
2656:talk
2650:Wykx
2606:talk
2587:talk
2540:talk
2518:talk
2500:talk
2492:born
2472:talk
2438:talk
2419:talk
2405:Wykx
2382:talk
2368:talk
2343:talk
2316:talk
2297:talk
2283:talk
2269:talk
2252:talk
2246:Wykx
2234:talk
2217:talk
2199:talk
2173:talk
2152:talk
2132:talk
2105:talk
2083:talk
2049:talk
2035:talk
2029:Wykx
2013:talk
1999:talk
1984:talk
1966:talk
1932:talk
1925:N-HH
1909:talk
1879:talk
1872:N-HH
1852:talk
1783:talk
1777:Wykx
1765:talk
1751:talk
1745:Wykx
1733:talk
1719:talk
1713:Wykx
1701:talk
1683:talk
1668:talk
1653:talk
1635:talk
1621:talk
1607:talk
1593:talk
1578:talk
1563:talk
1548:talk
1530:talk
1512:talk
1437:talk
1427:Wykx
1415:talk
1409:Wykx
1396:talk
1372:talk
1366:Wykx
1347:talk
1332:talk
1311:talk
1282:talk
1265:talk
1249:and
1247:Wykx
1233:talk
1215:talk
1187:talk
1169:talk
1163:Wykx
1142:talk
1121:talk
1099:talk
1093:Wykx
1081:talk
1063:talk
1057:Wykx
1045:talk
1027:talk
1021:Wykx
1005:talk
987:talk
981:Wykx
969:talk
955:talk
949:Wykx
937:talk
913:talk
895:talk
877:talk
859:talk
829:talk
807:talk
790:talk
776:talk
762:talk
743:talk
712:talk
692:talk
663:talk
657:Wykx
630:talk
609:talk
584:talk
563:talk
549:talk
520:talk
493:talk
471:talk
452:talk
431:talk
415:talk
397:talk
361:talk
343:talk
329:talk
315:talk
297:talk
279:See
271:talk
234:talk
217:talk
186:talk
168:talk
150:talk
125:talk
96:talk
74:talk
56:talk
5153:â±·âŒ
5149:âœâ±·Ò
4480:and
4087:ABC
3984:all
3978:or
3943:â±·âŒ
3939:âœâ±·Ò
3704:not
3700:not
2209:all
2097:all
1901:all
737:?
725:or
389:not
355:.
291:.
5313:)
5288:)
5278:UK
5271:)
5261:UK
5248:)
5240:?
5231:)
5216:)
5198:,
5192:-
5168:)
5136:â
5114:)
5092:)
5060:)
5002:)
4976:)
4968:.
4952:)
4932:)
4918:)
4898:)
4871:)
4857:)
4843:)
4824:)
4809:53
4776:)
4768:.
4754:)
4732:)
4724:.
4714:)
4696:UK
4688:)
4648:)
4634:)
4605:)
4597:.
4587:)
4566:)
4538:)
4514:)
4504:UK
4496:)
4457:)
4449:.
4435:)
4415:)
4407:.
4396:)
4377:)
4362:)
4350:.
4340:)
4325:)
4294:)
4283:is
4242:)
4212:)
4191:)
4148:)
4132:)
4120::
4116:;
4109:;
4105::
4101:;
4097::
4093:;
4085:;
4077:;
4069:;
4061:;
4057::
4053:;
4049::
4045:;
4037:;
4029:;
4025::
4017::
4013:;
4009::
3994:)
3980:UK
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3926:â
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3849:)
3835:)
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3803:)
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3667:)
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2167:.
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