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one. It was first drafted in late 1970's and early 1980's, and the main reasons was
Beijing and the 3 North-eastern provinces are separate olitical units. This classification of Ji Lu Mandarin has a fundamental fault: In the lingual line of that runs from Baoding to Tianjin, the words that belonged to Qing-Fraction of the Inner Tone in Pre-Qin Classical Chinese have shfited to all four modern tones. This is the same as in Beijing Mandarin and Northeastern Mandarin. In China modern linguists do not follow this anymore.
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1319:", without mentioning anything about false edit summaries. And you didn't ask Appleyard before reverting him, you just assumed that the edit summary was "false", you didn't think of asking him, you didn't even leave him a message saying that you had reverted his moves. And you already used a really poor edit summary in your 2012 reverts (you said
706:, and in accord with standard punctuation in pinyin, an en dash is not to be used.) Since the names for these languages are direct borrowings from Mandarin, and since each refers to a singular language despite its being spoken in two distinct areas, the Chinese usage represented in pinyin appears to carry most weight here. –
1044:
Kwamikagami moves these things all over the place. There's been so many notices at so many wikiprojects about closures against consensus, not using common names, using names not used by bilingual-English speakers of the languages, so the article names are not the names recognizable to the speakers of
337:
The article says Ji Lu
Mandarin and Beijing Mandarin are very different. As a native speaker of Beijing Mandarin, I must say this is absolutely untrue. The classification of Ji Lu Mandarin which includes Tianjin, Baoding-Tangshan and other northern part of Hebei was a political one, not a lingustic
1098:
per MOS. (I looked at the first article moved with the claim that the move was "uncontroversial", and since it was controversial and there was no discussion on the talk page, I reverted.) These dialects are not named after e.g. " Lanyin", but are abbreviations of e.g. Lanzhou and
Yinchuan. As
522:
falsely implies that it is
Mandarin from "Jilu", along the lines of Beijing Mandarin. Since the typical reader would not be surprised at a Chinese name they'd never heard before, they would not be able to easily judge. Similarly, we'd be implying that there are Mandarin-speaking areas called
554:
Well, neither is "Beijing
Mandarin" a commonly used form of that (efficient) dialect. This would be a matter of perspective; I still think abiding by pinyin rules should be our guideline. Otherwise we would have to change the pinyin in the lead to reflect our modification, and pinyin
632:
Kwami is right that "Jilu" makes it look as it "Jilu" is the name of something, rather than two names mashed together. But HXL is right that there is some precedent, both on
Knowledge and elsewhere for this kind of perhaps misleading romanization (another example is the
698:, subject to later review if more specific WP guidelines are developed for such names. This is a very difficult case, located at the confluence of several issues in English punctuation practice and various cross-linguistic accommodations. In the end I am swayed by
1104:
877:
a speedy move of this and the related pages. This should be a technical request. It's ridiculous that RMs should have to be rehashed and reconfirmed every two years. The burden should be on those seeking to overturn the previous decision. —
1250:
Anthony
Appleyard moved page Talk:Lan–Yin Mandarin to Talk:Lanyin Mandarin: Requested at Knowledge:Requested moves as uncontroversial //en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Knowledge:Requested_moves Technical_requests&oldid=550299829
527:
with a regular hyphen might work, as long as it's doubly capitalized; "Ji-lu" would be problematic because it's so common to hyphenate all polysyllabic
Chinese words. I don't think I'd have any problem with moving these to
1433:
Following a request on RfPP, I've protected the page against further moves, except for uninvolved admins closing RMs, including
Anthony. I protected on the version that I found it; that should be reverted if appropriate.
1394:
per previous RMs. One disruptive user shouldn't be subverting again and again the results of RMs just because he disagrees with the results. This damages the RM system and encourages more disruptive behaviour. (Oh, and
1453:
they should be given with the very FIRST mention of the term, as well as for all of the related/further listed dialects. a bunch of them finally do down bottom, but not all, and not UP TOP, where it counts!
1487:
1271:
11:44, 22 July 2012 Shrigley moved page Lan-Yin
Mandarin to Lanyin Mandarin over redirect: It was moved to "Lanyin" via RM, but reverted without explanation by a retired desysopped user.
444:
1283:
You managed to see on your watchlist that 3 articles you have moved several times had been moved by admin Anthony Appleyard, but you couldn't see the RMs in the edit history?
1181:
Does this strike you as appropriate editing behaviour for someone who has been warned so many times about moving articles counter RM results and ignoring Talk page consensus?
443:
rules, these would be "combined meanings". Since we have chosen to maintain the abbreviated name, apart from tone marks, we need to follow spacing rules. See, for example,
1231:
BTW, the objection to the punctuation in the original RM was to the en dash, not to a hyphen. I agree that an en dash is probably not warranted here, but a hyphen is. —
1450:
how can u have an article like this -- and spend months arguing about the DASH between the pinyin for the characters -- without even ONCE stating the characters!!!!
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416:— There was no justification given for the move to the dash form, and I say absolutely not to the dash. The dash would be appropriate if the dialect group were
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This is merely a matter of formatting style. Different sources treat these differently. The en dash does not imply any kind of terminous, but rather just that
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discourages hyphens except for certain cases, and this name doesn't fall under any of the cases, and this argument was already mentioned in the first RM) --
1099:
compound names, they should be hyphenated in an encyclopedia, even if the hyphen is often dropped in practice. The hyphens are retained in sources such as
1331:
1223:
Anthony Appleyard moved page Jiaoliao Mandarin to Jiaoliao Mandarin zxcvbnm without leaving a redirect: temp to get deleted parallel history out from under
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which in turn refs several sinologists. Hyphenation is also used in more specialized contexts, such as "The Evolution of Nasal Final in Lan-Yin Dialect"3
1477:
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Anthony Appleyard moved page Lanyin Mandarin to Lanyin Mandarin zxcvbnm without leaving a redirect: temp to get deleted parallel history out from under
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637:, written that way both on-wiki and in some signage I've seen in Beijing). I guess it comes down to whether we want to choose clarity or consistency.
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21:44, 23 July 2012 Kwamikagami moved page Lanyin Mandarin to Lan-Yin Mandarin over redirect: objection was to the dash, not the hyphentext here
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Unfortunately, that excuse won't work for your reverts of 2011 (you had just participated in the RM) and 2012 (in all two page stories it said "
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Lastly, the dash suggests some sort of a terminus, much in the manner of "Beijing—Shijiazhuang", when such a terminus does not exist... Indeed
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it's difficult to find the most recent ones and work out what sanction is in place. In any case I take both of the above comments are in fact
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the titles of numerous language articles so just let it stay at this title since it will end up back here anyway. It's less disruptive. —
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
1492:
702:, which determines (following Library of Congress Guidelines) that language names are not hyphenated in their pinyin representations. (
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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I didn't review each of the six page histories. I looked at the first one, saw that the edit summary was false, and reverted. —
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05:06, 9 June 2013 Anthony Appleyard moved page Lanyin Mandarin zxcvbnm to Lanyin Mandarin without leaving a redirect: and back)
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As I said, I think hyphens are adequate, so I'd have no objection to that. But I have no idea what your first sentence means. —
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the language, etc, that Knowledge is just a personal fiefdom. I'm surprised he kept his sysop bit for any length of time. --
860:- revert disruptive move counter an RM decision (plus as discussion above and sources show, this is the normal rendering)
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
743:
Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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jiazhuang), among others; a search for "Jing–shi Expressway" on Google leads to "did you mean: Jingshi Expressway?".
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moved page Talk:Lan–Yin Mandarin to Talk:Lanyin Mandarin: Requested at Knowledge:Requested moves as uncontroversial
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was closed, but an admin who had participated in the discussion then reverted the move without any explanation (see
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mention as to special abbreviations derived from foreign languages, as occurs in this case. There is a parallel at
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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1221:
Anthony Appleyard moved page Jiaoliao Mandarin zxcvbnm to Jiaoliao Mandarin without leaving a redirect: & back
1063:
cause an alert notification to let him/her know there is a concern? But there are so many ANIs about this problem
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called by its full name, "Hebei—Shandong". For one, Oxford, which appears to be the basis for WP:ENDASH, gives
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13:31, 10 April 2011 R'n'B moved Lan–Yin Mandarin to Lanyin Mandarin: per Talk:Ji–Lu Mandarin#Requested move
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16:26, 9 June 2013 Kwamikagami moved page Lanyin Mandarin to Lan-Yin Mandarin over redirect: correct punctj
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Anthony Appleyard moved page Lanyin Mandarin zxcvbnm to Lanyin Mandarin without leaving a redirect: and back
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has moved this article 5 times in 5 years to various titles (including strangely enough the current title
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Did you just make that up? It says no such thing at the edit you linked to. The edit summary I saw was:
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The meaning of my first sentence is that in that case, "dialect" is more commonplace than "Mandarin". --
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Or that other editors have complained to you for not gathering consensus when moving lots of pages
942:. This should not be moved again without a full RM; thanks to SlimVirgin, it probably won't be. --
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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It was moved to "Jiaoliao" via RM, but reverted without explanation by a retired desysopped user.
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Calm down, pick the moral high ground, and start a RM instead of reverting again..... --
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Or that you were desysopped for performing this type of moves against consensus.....
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makes it clear that speakers of this group extend beyond those two provinces alone.
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Never mind that a few days ago you were move-warring over another hyphen..., see
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985:– Restore previous RM results, in line with English print sources, yet again.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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06:54, 25 July 2011 Kwamikagami moved Lanyin Mandarin to Lan-Yin Mandarin
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when you were the only commenter in the RM who made such a distinction).
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The latest was less than 24 hours after a RM closure. S/he appears to
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Anthony Appleyard moved page Jiao-Liao Mandarin to Jiaoliao Mandarin
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Where usage is divided, there's no reason not to follow the MOS. —
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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the proposed title) all the while ignoring previous RM discussions.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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Anthony Appleyard moved page Lan-Yin Mandarin to Lanyin Mandarin
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restoring it per previous results. That move was beyond bold.--
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for restoring RM results if the bigger problem is addressed.
1160:(moved Talk:Lan–Yin Mandarin to Talk:Lanyin Mandarin: per
1253:. Do you seriously not know how to read an edit history?
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Stub-Class China-related articles of Mid-importance
1156:. You also ignored the page history 10 April 2011
771:. No further edits should be made to this section.
910:. No further edits should be made to this section.
237:This article has not yet received a rating on the
510:are two independent names, which they are. Read
500:Oppose proposed destination, support hyphenation
700:Knowledge:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Hyphens
391:Knowledge:Naming_conventions_(Chinese)#Hyphens
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1132:I take it by "the first article" you mean
858:Support - Speedy move as technical request
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1315:"). And in the 2013 revert you only say "
1168:and then the same for Jiaoliao Mandarin
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1101:Language and National Identity in Asia
1483:Mid-importance China-related articles
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1503:Unknown-importance language articles
1148:" - but you didn't notify the admin
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385:The result of the move request was:
197:This article is within the scope of
95:This article is within the scope of
1172:And then the same for this article
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38:It is of interest to the following
1162:Talk:Ji–Lu Mandarin#Requested move
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1332:Traffic light vs Traffic-light
445:Xiàndài Hànyǔ Chángyòng Zìbiǎo
220:Template:WikiProject Languages
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211:and see a list of open tasks.
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559:, if ever, uses dashes. --
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239:project's importance scale
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118:Template:WikiProject China
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1248:No I did not make it up:
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523:"Jiaoliao" and "Lanyin".
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1419:Please do not modify it.
1176:ignoring the 2 RMs here.
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764:Please do not modify it.
740:Please do not modify it.
377:Please do not modify it.
676:this discussion on meta
1256:How could you not see:
1150:User:Anthony Appleyard
1138:User:Anthony Appleyard
121:China-related articles
28:This article is rated
1152:, and didn't look at
1065:search ANI 81 results
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1397:WP:NC-CHINA#Hyphens
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818:. Please move also
635:Jingzang Expressway
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34:content assessment
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1074:
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414:Jilu Mandarin
411:
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1456:66.30.47.138
1452:
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1374:
1322:
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1142:which states
1100:
1095:
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984:
939:
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929:
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808:move request
805:
777:
775:
763:
756:
739:
732:
709:
703:
695:
682:
672:Hanyu Pinyin
659:
629:
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96:
90:China portal
40:WikiProjects
1401:Enric Naval
1379:Cold Season
1350:Enric Naval
1245:Kwamikagami
908:move review
844:Enric Naval
836:Enric Naval
816:arbcom case
769:move review
668:WP:MOSCHINA
343:—Preceding
1472:Categories
1436:SlimVirgin
1158:User:R'n'B
1047:65.94.79.6
778:page moved
704:A fortiori
603:Roundtable
565:Roundtable
460:Roundtable
322:discussion
304:discussion
286:discussion
30:Stub-class
1031:AjaxSmack
883:AjaxSmack
683:AjaxSmack
512:WP:ENDASH
214:Languages
205:languages
164:Languages
666:rules /
452:this map
418:actually
345:unsigned
333:Untitled
1392:Support
1375:Support
1251:mover..
1073:Support
1069:Support
1042:Comment
875:Support
750:Move? 2
721:oetica!
696:Support
674:; see
660:Support
630:Neutral
399:call me
139:on the
1446:kanji!
1096:Oppose
1001:Oppose
826:, and
664:pinyin
612:Record
574:Record
557:rarely
469:Record
441:pinyin
401:Russ)
320:, see
302:, see
284:, see
36:scale.
1299:kwami
1233:kwami
1111:kwami
940:moved
599:HXL's
585:kwami
561:HXL's
538:kwami
456:HXL's
395:R'n'B
387:Moved
310:Moved
292:Moved
274:Moved
112:China
103:China
59:China
1460:talk
1405:talk
1383:talk
1354:talk
1303:talk
1289:talk
1237:talk
1217:and
1187:talk
1115:talk
1081:talk
1071:and
1051:talk
991:talk
948:talk
866:talk
848:talk
840:talk
834:. --
806:– A
786:talk
662:per
649:talk
644:anaɢ
589:talk
542:talk
532:and
506:and
430:jing
428:(Bei
353:talk
1024:own
1009:and
944:BDD
900:.
737:.
607:and
569:and
464:and
447:.
434:Shi
316:to
298:to
280:to
233:???
131:Mid
1474::
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1189:)
1117:)
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993:)
978:→
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780:.
761:.
724:–
651:)
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544:)
536:—
508:Lu
504:Ji
491:→
482:→
422:no
412:→
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1458:(
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718:N
712:⊥
647:(
642:ʨ
640:r
587:(
540:(
514:.
432:—
397:(
351:(
324:.
306:.
288:.
241:.
143:.
42::
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