1373:(236) She has a point: the later sources, Arab and Christian, are much more detailed than the earliest Arab source, which doesn't even give a name for the daughter. Kaegi thinks that the daughter could have been sent as a hostage after an agreement was struck between Roderic and Julian, a plausible scenario. So perhaps we should summarise the late Florinda story, and then note how later embellished versions differ from the earliest extant source, and then state what different scholars have said about it? BTW, in re-reading Collins, I have found that I misquoted: he was talking about a "drunken scribe" possibly mistaking an Urbanus for Julianus in the Mozarabic Chronicle (as other scholars, unnamed by Collins, have suggested); he was not talking about the بـ for يـ confusion in the earliest Arabic manuscript that Jones suggests. I must have misinterpreted my notes when I cited that before. I will correct this presently.--
1398:, a name some say is derived from Caucasus, his place of origin. Another point of contention among scholars is Julian's position ... whether he was a Byzantine count, or a chief of the Ghumara tribe of Berbers (I think Ibn Khaldun suggested that), or simply a wealthy and influential merchant with trading posts on both sides of the straits of Gibraltar (can't remember who said that, some Arab historian). Once again, none of these are mutually exclusive ... he could have been all three. BTW, I don't like your reliance on Jones' translation of
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Arabic source is a plausible one — I've made it myself. But it doesn't matter what we think, it matters what the sources tell us about the current state of scholarship, and they're telling us that
Collins's view is the prevailing one. Even Collins doesn't dismiss the possibility of his existence entirely, but he thinks that the onus of proving it is on the proponents, and that their arguments are weak. --
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Agreed, and
Collins seems to say that even most scholars who accept Julian's historicity "tended to pass by the rape story" (36). But Grieve argues "“If Arab historians were to invent something out of whole cloth, they might have done a better job of it than the scant mention the violation receives."
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Pelayo's basic existence is not questioned, but parts of the narrative about him are. Most scholars today seem to think that Julian is totally fictitious, with important exceptions. I happen to think that the Julian legend preserves a real person, and that the بـ for يـ error in copying the earliest
1042:. Ordinary users are not allowed to stomp on existing pages when doing moves, which is a rule that seems to basically make sense to me – although it would be nice if there was an exception for when the destination page is just a redirect to the page being moved, and has no substantial edit history.) —
1154:
I agree: absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. It seems that the argument that he never existed is based on the fact that there is no mention of Julian in the
Mozarabic Chronicle, but we do have him in an Arabic chronicle. I have requested all of the sources mentioned from a
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the same in all regions, and should be sublisted separately in each region: intermunicipal entities are sometimes larger and split by subregions (e.g. the
Metropolitan Area of Lisbon has two subregions), some intercommunal entities are containing only parts of subregions. All subregions should be
1389:
When younger, I knew people who talked to people who were active adults 150 years ago. It's not that long. The problem is the extreme brevity of surviving accounts. For example, take the question of
Julianus vs Urbanus ... both names may refer to the same person. He could have had 2 names (Roman
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In the case of Julian, there is little that the late sources agree on. As I said, "North
African Christian who helped the invaders". It is pretty clear that his role was embellished in legend, whether you take him for real or not. Pelagius is a different case, since the circumstantial evidence
1285:
This can hardly be treated as a statement of fact. There is little that all the chronicles agree on save that he was a
Christian from North Africa who assisted the Arabs in their invasion of Spain. Of course, all these chronicles were written at a remove of 150 years or more with no known lost
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I'm not sure that it's biased because I haven't seen it. The anti-Francoist source which quotes it is definitely biased, by the author's own admission. I wouldn't think that an anti-Francoist would cite a nationalist except to rebut him, so I would assume that
Goytiloso considers him a neutral
1418:'s work. Even if you don't read Arabic, try to get hold of a copy of Torrey's edition, it is readily available from the many on-demand republishers that advertise their wares these days. His preface (in English) is very informative and directly addresses the question of the reliability of
1402:, however. That is more than 150 years old; admittedly there may not be a more recent English translation, but just because this is English wikipedia does not prevent you from going to other languages. You need to find one based on the critical edition by
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source. But I don't know that, because I haven't actually been able to read them yet. In the meantime, I have created nested quotes to show where
Goytiloso cites Valdeavellano (according to the editor who placed the citations there previously). --
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citizens famously always had 3). Or Arab/Berber people may have known him by some name derived from a title or some other attribute, and the Goths by another ... a situation not unknown in those times e.g.
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statistic subdivisions but real administrative entities, so they should be listed below, probably using a smaller font: we can safely eliminate the subgrouping by type of intermunicipal entity from this
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Whoever wants to establish that Julian was a figure of legend as "fact" rather than a theory should first make his case here. 150 years is not a long period for the first documentation of his existence.
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1086:. BTW, if the move request is fairly uncontroversial, you can simply paste "{{db-move|page to be moved here|reason for move}}" on the redirect you wish to move to, and it will be taken care of.
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it doesn't work, but what I was complaining because, just as you said, "it would be nice if there was an exception for when the destination page is just a redirect to the page being moved."
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supports the basic outline of the later sources. For instance, an inscription by Fafila (his son, according to the chronicles) was preserved until the 20th century.
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One of the sources dates of Franco's reign and is in spanish, if the source is from spain (wich it probably is) it would likely be biased.
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150 years is very little time. Pelayo was first chronicled around 150 years and his existence is not questioned.
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40:WikiProjects
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1044:BarrelProof
872:—Preceding
794:Need images
713:Os Lusíadas
1443:Categories
1320:Asilah1981
1271:Report bug
1141:Asilah1981
1124:Asilah1981
954:PMAnderson
1424:MisterCDE
1254:this tool
1247:this tool
1082:Likewise
441:Rate the
119:Biography
59:Biography
1396:Muqawqas
1375:Jpbrenna
1335:Jpbrenna
1303:Jpbrenna
1260:Cheers.—
1157:Jpbrenna
932:to move
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874:unsigned
769:Requests
695:Portugal
612:Portugal
603:Portugal
562:Portugal
1412:chapter
1184:my edit
1084:support
1036:Support
991:Jenks24
727:More...
706:Improve
662:history
455:Cleanup
378:history
351:on the
324:Morocco
315:Morocco
271:Morocco
30:C-class
946:Julian
938:Julian
816:Wikify
782:Assess
734:Review
700:Lisbon
436:Assess
36:scale.
1408:Dhikr
1360:Srnec
1316:Srnec
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987:moved
826:Vote:
762:box).
672:purge
667:watch
511:Other
499:Stubs
486:Photo
388:purge
383:watch
223:Spain
214:Spain
173:Spain
1428:talk
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343:High
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