Talk:Lechon - Knowledge

2115:, does not make the source(s) less reliable. Please remember that sources are not limited based on national origin to be considered reliable sources. In addition Obsidian Soul cited multiple sources to verify that other dishes have also been described as the/a national dish of the Philippines. I never argued that other dishes weren't also described as being a/the national dish of the Philippines. My initial version of the footnote states specifically that other dishes have been described as a national dish of the Philippines; it is what is verified to reliable source(s), and thus is included in the footnote, for both my version and the version proposed by Austronesier. 1438:) are themselves just as vague with regards to its legal basis. None of them outright calls it an official national dish. Even Minahan says it's "considered to be", and similarly labels other unofficial national symbols as "unofficial" where appropriate. I do not understand the insistence of following the vagueness of the sources. Are we deliberately making it sound official? Are we trying to obscure the fact that it has no legal basis? Because that's what this all amounts to. The question here seemingly isn't whether it is official or not (because it 71: 53: 2395:). Thus, we need reliable sources, and "reliable" here also includes "competent". On the other hand, "unofficial national dish" is one possible wording for the fact that something is called/considered etc. "national dish" in an unofficial, casual or metaphorical manner. We are thus entering the realm of paraphrasing, which is our daily bread on WP, because of copyvio and stylistic concerns (and it helps teachers to detect WP-based plagiarism). "Unofficial national dish" is one way of paraphrasing a fact for which we have numerous reliable sources. – 560: 572: 265: 81: 504: 22: 1294:

sufficient to be included in this article. If Obsidian Soul, wants to seek a third opinion, or appropriately canvass, for additional opinions, I am not one to stop the other user/editor. I think we all agree that the subject of this article has been described as a national dish in multiple reliable dishes, that said I think we disagree whether the word "unofficial" should be included in the article.

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said, Obsidian Soul has not provided any reliable sources that says that it is a "unofficial national dish". It has been described a either "a" or "the" national dish, it is what can be verified by reliable sources. Therefore, my wording keeps what can be verified directly from the sources, and does not attempt to spin it other than what the sources say. I am not including any original research.

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sources which use other ways of emphasizing this, like saying "considered to be" or putting "national dish" in quotes). So why deliberately hide this? Refusing to put it on the lead and hiding the actual clarification in a footnote. Just... why? I am getting frustrated because I'm basically repeating myself over and over and you still refuse to address why I object to your edit.--

165: 494: 470: 155: 137: 1489:'s wording is one possible adequate description of this fact. Leaving out the word "unofficial", however, would be misleading, unless replaced with another qualifier which helps to explain that the designation as a "national dish" is arbitrary, subjective, and not sanctioned by any official institution. An 1958:

which – counterfacually – calls lechon a "national dish" without further qualification. Chan (2017) is reliable because of the modifier "virtually". Therefore, we actually have good grounds to completely scrap any mention of the term "national dish". But then, some sources say that lechon "could be

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I've bolded the last sentence, which is exactly what I'm fighting for us here on Knowledge to avoid - the continued spread of the misinformation that things like lechon, adobo, mango, etc. have any official status whatsoever as national symbols. I do not understand why you think it's a good idea to

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Surely you can read between the lines. Everything else is hearsay. I could give you hundreds of other articles naming other dishes as THE national dish (not "one of", as you claiming), most of it is the adobo. These are misconceptions, and we should not be the vehicle for its spread. I repeat, show

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Actually the original term does in fact refer to a suckling pig (lechon from leche, the Spanish word for milk). The use of the term just probably evolved over the years to embrace not just suckling pigs but also adult pigs and became a default term for roast pig, even resulting in the superfluously

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I believe that consensus has been reached with the phrasing which the above user posted on 09:06, 19 December 2019. It makes use of the term which has been verified, while using a footnote to state it is not officially sanctioned by the national government of the Philippines. In addition it states

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in reliable sources on quite different levels. Referring to a "national dish" needs extra care especially in the Philippine context, where national symbols are sanctioned much more than in many other countries (most countries stop at flag, anthem, coat-of-arms, colors). People from other countries

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My dear friends, consensus and compromise will always entail agreeing about the result, even though still disagreeing about each party's reasons and rationale. It may be helpful to be assured that my opponent has understood, digested and addressed my point (especially if there is a perspective for

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the dishes considered as "national dishes" to be unofficial. Do you dispute this? The defense that "this source doesn't say that" is nonsensical to me for foregoing clarification. We can verify that it is called a national dish. But we can also verify that it is not official (including by your own

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I've also noted that all of these sources, with the sole exception of Business Mirror, are from outside the country. Now let's see MY sources which contradict yours. Most of these are local sources, with far more knowledge of the symbols of the Philippines. Just as reliable if not more than yours.

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as verified by multiple reliable sources, presently used in the article. None of those sources say that it is a "unofficial national dish". Therefore wording inserted by Obsidian Soul, saying that the subject of this article is a "unofficial national dish" is false. I am not arguing that there are

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IMHO there is no need to state official or unofficial as no source says either. Inserting language one way or another (official or unofficial) is not verified. That it has been verified by multiple reliable sources as a national dish (just as other dishes has been described as a national dish) is

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I have never stated that any source which I have found has described Lechon as the official national dish. I am not arguing that any source says that, I have not argued that any soruce says that. I have never advocated that framing. Therefore, there is no need to defend it to Obsidian Soul. That

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an official national hero. Even though I can easily give you thousands of sources saying he is. Because in reality, he really isn't. There is no law, executive order, or proclamation declaring him as such, even though pretty much everyone believes he is. It's the same situation here. Picking and

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since you are an involved party. The discussion is still ongoing. I have never claimed ownership of the article, I've accepted both proposed compromises while you still ignore the sources I've provided that contradict you. Neither have you answered my direct questions at you as to whether it is

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House Bill No. 3926 or the proposed National Symbols Act of 2014 filed by Bohol Rep. Rene Relampagos, seeks to declare and recognize several other items as the country’s official national symbols. In the category of “National Food” of the Philippines, it is adobo that is being pushed (shock of

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P.S. As for the source you are using. I can't find any other sources on House Resolution 1887 other than mirrors of Knowledge, which likely means it failed or never existed. And apparently even the representative who proposed this doesn't know which symbols are official as he names milkfish and

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In his House Resolution 1887, Agham (Science) Party-list Rep. Angelo Palmones said the Philippines has already a number of national symbols, such as narra as national tree, sampaguita as national flower, mango as national fruit, milkfish as national fish and lechon (roast pig) as national

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this article. The use of the term unofficial in the language of the Philippine section (let alone in the lead section, where you boldy included it and have so far insisted it being there) is still a matter of discussion. Let us reach a consensus on how to move forward before making

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Does any of them describe it as official? You're still avoiding the question on whether its official or not. Because it's not. I've challenged you to show me sources of the law that declares it as such, instead you're choosing to ignore the sources I have that say the Philippines

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Not that this takes any sides on the issue, but if we're talking about unofficial national dishes, and since there has been so much talk about Adobo, I feel I would be remiss in not mentioning the significant, scholar-supported (okay, Doreen Fernandez-supported) claim by

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itself specifies that the identity of the authors matters in considering whether their opinion is authoritative. Because they are opinions, given they do not identify the legal basis. Especially since one of your sources (the restaurant review) is quite obviously

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as "unofficial national dish" of the Philippines but it seems to be coming from blogs and food websites. I think that putting that title would also open a gate to tagging other Philippine dishes as "unofficial national dish" such as sinigang, adobo, etc. —

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it pretty strongly), we should follow their wording exactly to the exclusion of other sources that say otherwise. As I've said in the edit summary, let a third party decide what the consensus is, and I'll abide by whatever they decide. Not either of us.

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Relampagos cited the importance of passing the bill to boost national identity, and because of the 20 items often thought and taught to be national symbols, only 10 of these are, in fact, officially recognized in the Constitution, Republic Acts and

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Again, just because it does not say "unofficial" verbatim, doesn't mean you can not read between the lines. The words "national dish" connotes that it is official, which it is not. And you still haven't proven otherwise. This has precedence in the

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verified to be a national dish of the Philippines, but the insertion of the word "unofficial" is including a non-verified context. It should be sufficient to say that it has been referred to as a national dish of the Philippines, and leave it at

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mango, neither of which have official status, along with lechon. Until laws exist which declare lechon or whatever as the national dish, none of the websites matter. They do not have the authority to declare national symbols and thus are not

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Also notice how most of them talk about adobo, which is the far more popular contender for the official national dish title, rather than lechon (although that is irrelevant, the point here is that there is no official national dish).

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Did you know that the Philippines doesn’t have a national dish? While adobo may be one of the most popular Filipino dishes out there and has even gained international recognition, it isn’t actually our national dish – at least not

1221: 1166: 665:! No! , Lechon and suckling pig is not the same thing all over the world. I've never had a lechon that was a suckling pig in the philippines. The only lechon's I've ever had has been rather large adult pigs. 2118:

Additionally, the use of the term unofficial is not needed in the lead section, as it is already state in the body of the article in a footnote, that there is no official national dish for the Philippines.--

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does not require sourcing, if it is sourced in the body of the article (and it is - I don't know if you even realized that I wrote most of the text on the section on the Philippines). You reverted without

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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,

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Bohol Rep. Rene Relampagos filed earlier this month House Bill 3926 which seeks to declare adobo as national food, claiming that the dish uses a cooking method "indigenous to the Philippines."

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Explicity says the Philippines does not have a national dish and one congressman is proposing the Philippine National Symbols Act of 2014 to make adobo (not lechon) the official national dish.

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Your recent edits are poorly written, unsourced and unnecessary. You need not revert to them again, but you are welcome to write better. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

1169:, etc.), there is no need to state in the article that Lechon is an unofficial national dish. Especially because there is, as was stated by Obsidian Soul, no single official national dish.-- 2100:

above appears to be a decent compromise. I don't think the quotation is needed, as it is already wikilinked in the lead section (thus not needing to be linked again in the article per

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There are no reliable sources that there must be only one national dish, therefore when there are reliable sources that say that there are multiple national dishes of the Philippines (

1755:(San Diego City beat) - is an ad for a restaurant. It says lechon is the national dish, then contradicts itself later by saying adobo would be the national dish. Non-Filipino source. 428: 1705:, not lechon. You're using his quote as evidence, even though it is demonstrably false as well. The mango is not the national fruit and the milkfish is not the national fish. (see 393: 252: 2504: 2464: 2391:

who wouldn't expect that there is something like a legislation-sanctioned "national flower" (etc.), are more likely prone to use the term "national dish" in a casual manner (

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After what I wrote above, you are still completely misunderstanding my sources as well. Whether they are talking about lechon or adobo or sinigang or some other dish (which

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Of the reliable sources provided in this discussion, none of them have described lechon as an "unofficial national dish", the only one that does, does so for Puerto Rico.

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to multiple reliable sources. The previous wording did not say it was official or unofficial. None of the sources say that the subject is an unofficial national dish.--

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This lack of a national dish and a hard-to-define spice profile may add to the reasons why Filipino food has not been as popular until recently as other Asian cuisines

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Among these delectable meals, adobo best fits the title “The National Dish,” along with mango, milkfish (bangus) and carabao as other iconic symbols of the country.

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An article written by a non-Filipino with passing mention of the subject isn't as reliable as an actual Filipino source saying there is no official national dish.

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of what websites say. Naming the lechon or the adobo as national dishes are common misconceptions, but it isn't true. Even if websites say so. The only

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me a law, executive order, or proclamation declaring these as national dishes. Otherwise I will re-add the "unofficial" part. Post this discussion in

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https://web.archive.org/web/20120110025953/http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/science/20802-palmones-make-buko-juice-as-national-drink

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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wish to keep the word "national dish" in the article, but only with all due qualification (most importantly the quotation maks).

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Searching the internet for "unofficial national dish" and lechon, describes it as the "unofficial national dish" for Puerto Rico

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term like "national dish" can by no means equated with things like "national language", "national flag" or "national anthem". –

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named lechon de leche. As an aside, the term cochinillo is AFAIK what's used in Spain when referring to "roast suckling pig".

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sources also do) is again irrelevant. My sources are purely there to demonstrate a fact (not original research, not opinion):

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related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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To sum up: we have lots of good and undeniably reliable sources that prove that the Philippines officially have

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110719081028/http://www.articledashboard.com/Article/The-Historical-Lechon/811477

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https://web.archive.org/web/20130916175041/http://countrystat.bas.gov.ph/?cont=10&pageid=1&ma=C00PNLPI

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consensus of improving this article, even though we currently disagree about specific wording at this time.--

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called" (etc.) the "national dish". So it might be worth a mention then. My compromise tries to accomodate

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The feast sizzling and crackling so deliciously is the Philippine national dish, called lechón (leh-CHOHN).

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If you can say yes to that I will remove the "unofficial" part. Otherwise, it's just adding confusion. --

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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that other dishes have also been verified to have been described as a national dish of the Philippines.

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If the Philippines had an official national dish, it would probably be a sort of stew known as adobo.

1301:, but I have not seen a source which state it is an "unofficial national dish" for the Philippines.-- 675: 1999:

and can be considered uncivil and edit warring. Please revert yourself, and please stop. You do not

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Adobo is commonly referred to as the national dish, but it hasn’t really been officially named that.

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articles which are also considered unofficial national symbols. Answer this simple question for me:

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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source for this would be a specific law (which does not exist). It's the same thing with the

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You reverted it based on the statement that we had reached no consensus, which is violating

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I will read what has been typed since I last responded here, and respond as time allows.--

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http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/science/20802-palmones-make-buko-juice-as-national-drink

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choosing the sources while disregarding others that say there is no national dish is not

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the

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What has been stated in at least one of the reliable sources used in this discussion (

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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How many times must I say that before you acknowledge it? Which automatically makes

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Attacking sources just because they are not from the Philippines, given the large

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Yes, any qualifier will do, as long as it is made clear that it is not an official

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an official national symbol. That's it. How it is worded isn't important to me.--

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That said, I still want to help out with a clarification: "national dish" is a

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official or not, instead simply repeating your original rationale that since

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accepts my compromise version (see above before the outdent), so what about

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Lechon has been describes as a national dish of the Philippines.<ref: -->

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for us to clarify that it is unofficial. And I argue that yes, there is. --

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unofficial, that is something we can all agree to), it's whether there is a

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Lechon is often called the "national dish" of the Philippines.<ref: -->

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However, there is no official national dish of the Philippines<ref: -->

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We already do that. Beyond food even. I already linked to the example of

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diaspora of Filipinos (many of whom remain Citizens of the Philippines)

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sources do not say it is unofficial verbatim (even though most of them

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Edit: anyway, as it was suggested, the article should be merged into

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http://www.articledashboard.com/Article/The-Historical-Lechon/811477

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I never said that lechon is the official national dish, but it is

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http://countrystat.bas.gov.ph/?cont=10&pageid=1&ma=C00PNLPI

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Therefore, lets go forward with the consensus language created by

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regions, whose lechon traditions have native pre-colonial origins,

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The Philippines, on the other hand, has no official national dish.

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Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review

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I repeat, there is no official national dish of the Philippines,

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That would work as well. Again, my only concern here is that it

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My proposal (only slightly different wording + piped link to "

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that there is no official national dish of the Philippines.

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However, there is no ] dish of the Philippines.<ref: -->

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But that didn't pass yet, AFAIK. Please read this as well:

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Lechon, roasted whole pig, is considered the national dish

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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have a national dish. Let's look at your sources then:

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is new, and done by Obsidian Soul; it does not match

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shocks! You mean it isn’t yet the national dish???).

182:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 865:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 755:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1485:as ""national dish", nothing less, nothing more. 662:. A lechón is nothing else than a suckling pig. 533:. If you are new to editing Knowledge visit the 2371:other future fields of debate) but it is not a 2167: 1787:- "Why don’t we have official national dishes?" 965: 952: 939: 851:This message was posted before February 2018. 741:This message was posted before February 2018. 1054:(read this article for the full explanation). 8: 2210:How is that relevant? But just so you know, 1251:has a very prominent explanation that he is 980:Therefore it has been verified that it is a 1071:Why don’t we have official national dishes? 423:Category:Knowledge requested images of food 2505:Redirect-Class Dominican Republic articles 2465:Redirect-Class Philippine-related articles 821:I have just modified one external link on 464: 215: 131: 112:Knowledge:WikiProject Tambayan Philippines 47: 2510:NA-importance Dominican Republic articles 2470:NA-importance Philippine-related articles 1701:- passing mention, the subject matter is 1218:for a national dish. Not national dishes. 1214:lists several dishes it clearly says are 701:I have just modified 2 external links on 115:Template:WikiProject Tambayan Philippines 32:does not require a rating on Knowledge's 2386:. That puts the threshold for appearing 2382:, while "unofficial national dish" is a 1065:was proposed in House Bill 3926 in 2014. 2515:WikiProject Dominican Republic articles 1481:All sources prove that lechon is often 537:to become familiar with the guidelines. 466: 133: 49: 2480:Redirect-Class Food and drink articles 2485:NA-importance Food and drink articles 515:This redirect is within the scope of 176:This redirect is within the scope of 92:This redirect is within the scope of 19: 7: 1208:prefaces it by "many would consider" 200:Knowledge:WikiProject Food and drink 2490:WikiProject Food and drink articles 2152:language in the body of the article 1605:CNN Philippines source</ref: --> 1595:National symbols of the Philippines 1563:CNN Philippines source</ref: --> 1432:National symbols of the Philippines 1052:National symbols of the Philippines 421:Provide photographs and images for 272:Here are some tasks you can do for 203:Template:WikiProject Food and drink 38:It is of interest to the following 2182:for that sentence, at that time.-- 1894:- also talks about House Bill 3926 1059:The closest to a national dish is 14: 2495:Redirect-Class Caribbean articles 1247:For context, even the article on 1202:Then it is unofficial, isn't it? 825:. Please take a moment to review 705:. Please take a moment to review 2500:NA-importance Caribbean articles 2475:WikiProject Philippines articles 2261:. I hope that we can come to an 2164:. The initial dispute being that 2148:inclusion of additional language 1334:is it an official national dish? 570: 502: 492: 468: 427:Consider joining this project's 263: 163: 153: 135: 95:WikiProject Tambayan Philippines 79: 69: 51: 20: 543:Knowledge:WikiProject Caribbean 449:from the project's tasks pages. 392:Participate in project-related 2520:WikiProject Caribbean articles 1224:puts the "national" in quotes. 984:of the Philippines. Thus, the 586:WikiProject Dominican Republic 583:This redirect is supported by 546:Template:WikiProject Caribbean 412:{{WikiProject Food and drink}} 1: 2450:15:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC) 2405:09:24, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2355:06:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2287:02:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2244:06:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2204:01:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2140:01:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2076:01:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 2029:01:17, 20 December 2019 (UTC) 1981:12:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1945:11:44, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1667:12:04, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1619:09:06, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1589:08:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1540:01:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1503:16:31, 18 December 2019 (UTC) 1475:01:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC) 1413:13:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC) 1398:I can see some posts calling 1393:03:11, 18 December 2019 (UTC) 1365:00:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC) 1323:15:23, 17 December 2019 (UTC) 1289:07:29, 16 December 2019 (UTC) 1191:02:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC) 1144:09:32, 15 December 2019 (UTC) 1102:09:28, 15 December 2019 (UTC) 1014:06:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC) 809:13:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC) 616:Where if, anywhere, does the 194:and see a list of open tasks. 106:and see a list of open tasks. 2180:lone source used in the lead 1898:Philippine Canadian Inquirer 988:does not meet what has been 688:23:21, 6 November 2012 (UTC) 1153:not other dishes which are 919:08:04, 6 January 2018 (UTC) 118:Philippine-related articles 2536: 1430:and a full article on the 882:(last update: 5 June 2024) 818:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 772:(last update: 5 June 2024) 698:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 624:belong in this article? -- 276:WikiProject Food and drink 250:To edit this page, select 179:WikiProject Food and drink 1791:Good News Pilipinas, 2019 634:21:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC) 578:Dominican Republic portal 566: 487: 219:Food and Drink task list: 214: 148: 64: 46: 2178:was not verified by the 1835:The New York Times, 1986 656:10:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 407:to learn how to do this. 1707:Philippine Primer, 2017 814:External links modified 694:External links modified 206:Food and drink articles 2175: 976: 962: 949: 563: 445:Note: These lists are 370:articles currently at 344:articles currently at 292:Status or below up to 2373:conditio sine non qua 1993:Reverting a reversion 1850:GMA News Online, 2014 1785:PhilStar Global, 2018 1771:CNN Philippines, 2015 1699:Business Mirror, 2011 1073:(PhiLStar Global).-- 562: 518:WikiProject Caribbean 429:Assessment task force 2375:for moving forward. 1820:BusinessMirror, 2015 1603:sources</ref: --> 1601:sources</ref: --> 1597:" + quotation marks) 1561:sources</ref: --> 1559:sources</ref: --> 863:regular verification 753:regular verification 394:deletion discussions 109:Tambayan Philippines 59:Tambayan Philippines 2157:Here is the intial 853:After February 2018 743:After February 2018 288:articles currently 1892:ABS CBN News, 2014 1844:(emphasis on "if") 1805:WhenInManila, 2016 1733:wrong, and thinks 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