1678:, but nevertheless can be merged here at editorial discretion if needed (e.g. in some of the descriptions I merged a few nights ago, I mentioned that the recipe calls for "equal parts X, Y, Z, in a so-and-so glass"). Now that the page is a little longer, we should also be a bit more liberal about adding images to the page—it would be nice to provide more illustration. As far as the question of "what harm do these cause?" or "what's so 'wrong' about these articles?", I think the answer is in the proliferation of trivial topics. The community has
1662:, I think you raise thoughtful questions. In my view, the other cocktails, particularly in the "new era" category, should be reevaluated on a case-by-case basis. By this I mean I don't think we necessarily have to merge the entire "new era" category here; there could very well be notable cocktails in that category. However, there are a variety of stubs that do not seem at first glance to be more notable than the Spicy Fifty. There are serveral one-sentence stubs that don't impart more information beyond the infobox, e.g.
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content and better references than many of the others!) that it, and only it, had to go? Or if this same treatment is to be rolled out more widely, let's say at least to the entire 'New era' category (which, I agree with you, is considerably less notable than the other two, and presumably also more prone to change), then don't we risk losing a lot of useful information currently contained in all those individual articles and their talk pages? Or am I exaggerating either the quantity or quality of that information? --
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some sort of coordinated manner, we could end up going through a lot of AfDs and PRODs, with some going one way, some the other. Now, I know there's no inherent requirement for consistent treatment of comparable articles (however much I would like there to be!), so perhaps it's okay if one article gets removed while another one remains, but all the same, I do think this could get messy if the category isn't handled as a whole. --
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1392:, honey syrup, red chili pepper, and fresh lemon juice. It is designed to offer a sweet sensation at first, followed by citrusy freshness, and to finish with a slight heat of the chili. The cocktail was invented in 2005 by Salvatore Calabrese as a signature drink for his bar in the luxury casino 'Fifty' (now closed) owned by
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I wasn't so much asking what is the 'harm' in having one or all of these articles, but rather why was the Spicy Fifty singled out, and more to the point, what should now be done about the category more generally? You suggest dealing with these articles on case by case basis, but unless that's done in
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If only some drinks are merged here while others keep their individual articles, should the information in this article be standardised across all drinks, regardless of whether or not they have their own articles? Otherwise we could end up with a situation where, say, the
Negroni has only a link from
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notability than is the case with the Spicy Fifty (being the key 'delete' argument in that discussion). In other words, if the Spicy Fifty must be merged here on that basis, then surely many others must follow — yet none of the other drinks on the 'new era' list has even been subject to AfD, from what
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IMO this article should be about the list, up-to-date as it stands at any given time, rather than a historical log of all the versions of the list that may have been in the past. That said, I personally see no harm in having a section for 'notable' deletions; if, say, the
Negroni were to be dropped,
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outcome). At the moment the Spicy Fifty is the only one of the nearly a hundred IBA official drinks to have been treated this way; all the others have their own, dedicated articles. If that remains so, one has to wonder what was so 'wrong' about the Spicy Fifty article (which actually now has more
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Here I have to ask a stupid(?) question: why is one of the most popular drinks of modern times listed alphabetically under "d" for "dry martini"? There are many variations on the basic gin+vermouth recipé - isn't "dry martini" just a preferential mix, or possibly a choice of the sweetness of the
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the articles describing the IBA official drinks must adhere to this strict notability requirement? In my opinion it ought to be, if anything, the other way around: inclusion on the IBA list should in and of itself automatically establish notability, while all other drinks should earn their place
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What of the existing information should be merged here? There are nearly a hundred drinks on the list, and keeping even just a barebones summary of each, even if laid out in a relatively compact table or similar format, would result in a) this article becoming very long, and yet b) much of the
774:– "Acronyms should be used in a page name if the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject ...". I've always heard this organization called "IBA", not by its full name. In context it is not ambiguous, as none of the other
1374:, whose gang dominated Chicago's South Side. The gin imported by Capone's rivals on the North Side of Chicago was smooth, and usually consumed with ginger ale. However, the gin consumed by Al Capone's gang had a rougher finish, and required more sweeteners to make it palatable. Thus the
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Could the properties that the IBA uses to classify each drink into the three categories (unforgettables, contemporary classics, and new era drinks)? Obviously the title of each category is semi-self-explanatory, but a brief description would be both useful, interesting, and informative.
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Who decides, and on what (policy or other) grounds, which drinks on the IBA list warrant their own articles, and which are to be merged into this one? Many of these articles are currently supported by references which are borderline, with some demonstrating even less conventional
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I think we should refactor this list to have brief descriptions for every drink, even if the drink has a standalone article. As I stated at the AfD, the notability of these "new era" drinks seems rather borderline, and the coverage available doesn't quite seem enough to support
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Thanks for picking this up. You've clearly done a lot of work bringing across all that content from the individual articles! However, I still have reservations about the proposed merger approach per the Spicy Fifty AfD outcome (or perhaps I should say
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notability, but one thought I had was we could refactor this list of IBA official cocktails to include brief descriptions of each drink rather than it just being a list of links. This could theoretically be as short as a few sentences per drink,
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this article to its own, while the Spicy Fifty has a summary (ie. actual content) here, resulting in this article providing information only about the 'less important' (meaning, less 'notable' in the
Knowledge (XXG) sense of the word) drinks.
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articles, respectively. Note that refactoring this list to include descriptions does not mandate that we must also merge all the drinks we do include a description for into this article. However, doing so might make it easier for editors to
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information currently existing in those articles (as well as their talk pages) being almost inevitably lost. To me, culling all that information just so we could squeeze everything into this article seems a retrograde step.
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Now that the deletion review has closed, we can continue with this. I was thinking that maybe the contents could be laid out as a table (no need to be sortable, at least not by every column) — something along these lines:
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1132:-- It has been a year! If you're up for it, this is a wiki. Be bold, and add as you like. If someone is watching the article and feels strongly enuf to revert, they should have responded to you by now.
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Is there some guideline on
Knowledge (XXG) that says that any IBA cocktail should be capitalized, even if none of the words in its name derive from a proper noun (e.g., "gin and tonic", "mint julep")?
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project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
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1686:, but do not necessarily cause "harm" and are "useful" to readers who have a niche interest in these topics. Admittedly, however, this sort of debate over these borderline topics is
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exists for many years, with no references, and yet no PROD or AfD against it. Will all such articles be removed, if they aren't supported well enough? Or is the suggestion that
799:– IBA might be an ambiguous abbreviation by itself, but in this context there is no lack of clarity. No other IBAs that issue lists of official cocktails have been identified. —
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page is in order, as it has distinctly different ingredients and history. It would seem reasonable that each IBA drink have its own page, as they do on the IBA's website. —
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However the listing in IBA World specifies slightly different ingredients, and indeed Tommy's
Margarita is a separate page from the main Margarita page on IBA World.
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You're right, there are countless variations of the
Martini. The reason why specifically the classic Dry Martini is listed in this article is that that's what's on
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the list was updated very recently, and the artice lwas updated accordingly. Don't you think we should keep both of the list? One as "old" and one as "2020 list"?
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mixer? I don't claim bartender expertise, I only ever served, or occasionally imbibed them, but in such a listing, I think we might dispense with "dry".
1674:. The infoboxes of these article primarily contain information about how to prepare the drinks, which isn't exactly necessary for an encyclopedia per
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If there is to be an AfD or similar process for each drink individually, what mechanism is there to ensure at least some consistency of outcomes?
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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I think we've got too many photos now. They are starting to pile up on my screen. We could switch to a gallery, or remove one or more.
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PS: I've only just seen the Spicy Fifty deletion review taking place, so will wait for that to conclude before commenting further. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
1350:(also known as "South Side"). Its origins are subject to speculation. It has been proposed that it gets its name from either the
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Simply being on the IBA list does not necessarily make a drink notable enough for its own article. But in this case I agree.
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completed the merge along the lines of what I and I believe the AfD was thinking. I formatted it based on
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It would seem that a new page specifically for Tommy's
Margarita, going into more detail than the main
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which says we should keep articles where there is insufficient information in reliable sources
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
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Coffee
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Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
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redirect those borderline notable drinks (thereby skipping AfD).
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one of Knowledge (XXG)'s most fundamental and longstanding
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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On 19 December 2014, it was proposed that this article be
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on the IBA official list? For example, an article on the
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Earliest mentions by this name are with whiskey or gin.
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Since no one has objected, I have removed one photo.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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these articles will now be merged here as a job lot?
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1441:"The Origins Of 10 Popular Prohibition Cocktails"
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316:Here are some tasks you can do for
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888:1.5 cl Freshly squeezed lime juice
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1208:we could certainly note that. --
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1286:Please discuss! :) Cheers, --
1124:19:47, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
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1026:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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881:Tommy's Margarita recipe:
850:page. The info box on the
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885:4.5 cl Tequila
876:
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839:
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833:
819:requested move
813:
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754:WP:TITLEFORMAT
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698:requested move
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386:Top Importance
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39:was closed on
37:The discussion
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1885:DoubleGrazing
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1800:After dinner
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1729:DoubleGrazing
1726:
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1715:DoubleGrazing
1709:
1703:
1702:
1701:
1697:
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1677:
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1672:Trinidad Sour
1669:
1668:New York Sour
1665:
1661:
1660:DoubleGrazing
1658:
1657:
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1652:
1648:
1647:DoubleGrazing
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1542:"Spicy Fifty"
1537:
1534:
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1467:"Spicy Fifty"
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1288:DoubleGrazing
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1210:DoubleGrazing
1206:
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41:2 August 2020
38:
34:
30:
29:
25:
18:
17:
1881:
1859:
1856:red vermouth
1837:
1793:
1773:Ingredients
1753:
1641:
1603:
1549:. Retrieved
1545:
1536:
1524:. Retrieved
1514:
1502:. Retrieved
1498:
1474:. Retrieved
1470:
1461:
1449:. Retrieved
1445:Mental Floss
1444:
1417:
1409:
1384:– made with
1381:
1375:
1344:simple syrup
1334:– made with
1329:
1303:
1285:
1278:
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1129:
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1090:
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949:
937:. Retrieved
933:
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841:
823:
816:
796:
771:
740:
728:TonyBallioni
716:
714:
702:
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674:
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652:No such user
644:
613:
596:
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582:
575:
553:
540:
476:
455:
419:
415:
411:
410:Bring these
393:
389:
385:
384:Bring these
368:Ham and eggs
341:
337:
333:
329:
318:
317:
295:
245:
199:
155:
93:WikiProjects
44:
40:
26:
1815:light cream
1576:Spicy Fifty
1451:3 September
1394:Robert Earl
1382:Spicy Fifty
1368:Long Island
1230:Spicy Fifty
955:"MARGARITA"
829:move review
801:BarrelProof
708:move review
680:move review
631:BarrelProof
588:move review
491:transcluded
475:. List any
460:select here
428:Burger King
149:Food portal
57:its history
28:Spicy Fifty
1901:Categories
1499:DuJour.com
1410:References
1376:South Side
1352:South Side
1340:lime juice
1304:standalone
1099:Report bug
1008:Kendall-K1
993:Kendall-K1
973:Kendall-K1
914:References
866:Triple Sec
784:Kendall-K1
601:Malcolmxl5
597:page moved
556:Robert K S
541:page moved
83:List-class
1839:Americano
1795:Alexander
1613:MOS:DLIST
1609:WP:BOLDly
1607:. I have
1581:WP:BOLDly
1378:was born.
1372:Al Capone
1331:Southside
1082:this tool
1075:this tool
959:IBA World
934:IBA World
897:Margarita
852:Margarita
848:Margarita
717:not moved
445:WP:Trivia
372:Soy sauce
340:status:
117:Beverages
1776:Garnish
1360:Illinois
1088:Cheers.—
627:MOS:CAPS
454:Add the
422:status:
396:status:
247:inactive
33:deletion
1853:Campari
1847:(None)
1820:Nutmeg
1803:Cognac
1779:Method
1767:Timing
1642:alleged
1551:26 July
1526:26 July
1504:26 July
1476:May 29,
1356:Chicago
1188:updates
1148:Martini
1035:my edit
939:9 April
901:Nanoni9
860:tequila
842:In the
645:Support
277:history
202:on the
1809:cognac
1788:Notes
1782:Glass
1194:Corvus
1155:Ragity
1134:Ragity
1116:31173x
987:Photos
797:Oppose
772:Oppose
748:– Per
380:Yogurt
89:scale.
49:merged
1764:Name
1386:vodka
1130:Agree
874:juice
527:from
525:moved
424:Apple
406:Sugar
376:Sushi
360:Drink
356:Curry
352:Bread
287:purge
282:watch
166:drink
51:into
45:merge
1889:talk
1733:talk
1719:talk
1696:talk
1651:talk
1621:talk
1604:Done
1589:talk
1574:and
1553:2020
1528:2020
1506:2020
1478:2020
1453:2016
1348:mint
1346:and
1307:e.g.
1292:talk
1279:only
1239:WP:N
1214:talk
1198:talk
1178:talk
1159:talk
1138:talk
1120:talk
1012:talk
997:talk
977:talk
941:2017
905:talk
872:lime
805:talk
788:talk
776:IBAs
762:talk
752:and
732:talk
656:talk
635:talk
605:talk
560:talk
539:was
447:and
432:Fish
398:Beer
364:Food
348:Beef
297:here
272:edit
194:High
164:and
162:food
61:here
1708:Mz7
1704:Hi
1692:Mz7
1635:Mz7
1631:Hi
1617:Mz7
1585:Mz7
1403:...
1366:on
1336:gin
1326:...
1271:not
1254:all
1049:to
844:IBA
821:.
782:).
672:.
531:to
35:.
1903::
1891:)
1735:)
1721:)
1698:)
1670:,
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1623:)
1615:.
1591:)
1544:.
1497:.
1486:^
1469:.
1443:.
1427:^
1388:,
1358:,
1342:,
1338:,
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1216:)
1200:)
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1161:)
1140:)
1122:)
1014:)
999:)
979:)
957:.
932:.
921:^
907:)
807:)
790:)
764:)
744:→
734:)
719:.
700:.
658:)
637:)
617:→
607:)
599:.
580:.
562:)
430:,
426:,
420:FA
416:GA
404:,
400:,
394:FA
390:GA
378:,
374:,
370:,
366:,
362:,
358:,
354:,
350:,
338:GA
324::
221:/
115::
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1717:(
1710::
1706:@
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462:.
440:.
334:B
250:.
206:.
95::
63:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
