1362:. We're providing encyclopedic content about the subjects, and these lists are a guide to that content. That's another thing that separates a list like this, or a list of bands, from the list of newspapers: that particular list of newspapers is trying to be exhaustive; we're just listing services we have Knowledge articles for. It's not a guide to Tor, it's a guide to Knowledge articles about Tor. The other reason which is more related to recentism, I guess, but overall less compelling is (b) that just like books frequently go in/out of print, so too websites go online/offline. That's especially true for Tor, and when they really are defunct it can be hard to find reliable sources verifying as much. When they come back online, it can be hard to find reliable sources that say as much. Using a test like "I went to the site, and it was on/offline" is unusable per
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362:{{cite book | title=Net Working/Networking: Citizen Initiated Internet Politics | url=http://books.google.com/books?id=29Ucv7BU_DYC&pg=PA267 | publisher=University of Tampere | editor1-first=Tapio | editor1-last=Hรคyhtiรถ | editor2-last=Rinne | editor2-first=Jarmo | last=Jordan | first=Tim | chapter=The Politics of Technology: Three Types of 'Hacktivism' | year=2008 | pages=267 | isbn=9789514474644}}</ref: -->
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we don't delete articles on subjects that don't themselves exist anymore, so we don't need to put them in a separate box when listing articles. Again, it's a list of
Knowledge articles, not a guide to current Tor services. The defunct tags already make it clear to readers what is/isn't current. IMO we shouldn't have those, but it seemed like an acceptable compromise at the time. You're welcome to pursue
360:{{cite journal | url=http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a527761.pdf | format=PDF | title=Deploying Low-Latency Anonymity: Design Challenges and Social Factors | last1=Dingledine | first1=R. | last2=Mathewson | first2=N. | last3=Syverson | first3=P. | journal=IEEE Security & Privacy | year=2007 | volume=5 | issue=5 | pages=83โ87 | doi=10.1109/MSP.2007.108}}</ref: -->
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list messy to work with? I don't see the first two as something that happens frequently enough to be a concern. I agree with the latter as citations are currently done. In fact while I was adding that glut of text for the Free Haven sources, I figured I should pitch the idea of using named refs at the bottom instead (my personal preference for any article). That way instead of
1174:: Because it's a navbox to help people navigate Tor-related subjects, not a guide to using Tor or accessing these sites. The manual of style section on navboxes additionally says that because they're horizontally formatted page elements you should restrict the number of categories/rows (basically that if there's something on a line by itself, there's a problem).
209:). For something like lists of websites, that almost always means list items are supposed to have their own Knowledge article already. The other way to show notability some lists go by is to include sources which show that either the subject could have its own article -- or that it's notable but there's not quite enough information available to develop a
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1202:- The alternative you proposed on my talk page is to add "(defunct)" to the individual items without reorganizing it? That could make sense. I think the trick there will just be to do it so that it doesn't look bad. Seems like a good compromise, though. PS: I'm considering this thread to cover the same changes both here and at
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Does the technique above not assuage concerns for the second? I really don't see the first as a big concern. If It starts happening that this happens on a regular basis, we can change it, but including sources is the ideal for lists and I'm volunteering to add them, so let's just see if it becomes an
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Which aspect of maintenance are you referring to? Do you mean that if a source is unavailable we have to update two articles? That it would be a hassle to add or replace a source if the description of a site significantly changes for whatever reason? Or that the code required for a citation makes the
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Whether you find it recentism or not, people see list to find current state of affairs. List of GDP, height, average age is always updating. When a project has been said dead by the project itself or an article we can safely move it to defunct. As time goes on, defunct sites will always increase and
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That addresses an inclusion criteria for a separate section which speaks to part of (b) but doesn't address (a). Knowledge is supposed to indeed be timeless -- it's supposed to be up to date, but the information it contains should be just as relevant to readers in the future as it is now. Just like
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Let's keep this simple if there is absolute certainty it's dead(like cryptocat) let's send it to
Defunct section. Otherwise if it's in a superposition say:(state unclear). Service isn't something timeless like book. It's either being provided or not. If it's not provided it's not relevant. An onion
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If I or any editor edits say any of the fully wikified articles to update the site's mission or description, 90% of the time they will not realise that there is an associated list page that will also need updating. As a result I do expect the site descriptions to go out of date over time. When this
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WP policy: NO UNSOURCED items on lists. either they are a link to an article, or article section, or if no such link, a reliable source indicating the list items existence AND notability (even if not notable enough for an article). redlinks or unlinked items without sources should be removed. Qool
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My reasons for opposing a separate section are above. If I were active at the newspaper article, I would have opposed that mechanism of organization there, too. Again, these lists aren't to act as a guide to current services; they're a guide to
Knowledge articles about Tor services. Personally, I
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Why Is
Hacking Allowed? I mean i am pro at hacking and i don't use my skills for unproper use... I mean i know cracking codes, hacking, coding ( including HTML, And Javascript ), But i mean i don't us hacking for bad reasons.. people can use hacking for the good and prono stuff is bad they should
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Orbot and
Mastodon have twice been added to this article. They seem to very clearly not belong here, since they are not onion services. You can launch Mastodon instances as onion services (I know that it's documented, I helped implement the feature), and you can access/launch onion services via
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This page is specifically for talking about improving this page. Are you asking why this page lists hacking/pornography websites? If so, it's simply because this page collects all
Knowledge articles about hidden services (if it's notable enough for a Knowledge article, it's listed here; if that
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Re: "compromise" - I sort of agree, but think that it would be a whole lot better to have at least a second and/or third source for those that don't have articles. (I'm not going to remove them if those don't appear, but there wouldn't be a great argument against anyone who decided to do so). โ
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happens, it should be very easy to update the site descriptions en-mass, without having to either re-source the updated descriptions. Hence my hesitance to source on this page in that situation. If you want to source everything you can, but I have high hopes for this page's maintainability.
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I tend to agree with this. They're software, not sites themselves, and Tor isn't even mentioned in the
Mastodon article (not that it matters much in this case). I see Orbot is already included in the Tor navbox, which makes sense. That's what I was going to suggest as an alternative. โ
1366:, so aside from those few which had widely publicized takedowns, we're bound to be inaccurate. Then there are weird cases like Doxbin, which was taken down but is now sort of back up, but it's unclear what the connection is, and it's unclear if our article covers one or both. โ
1406:, but I would be very surprised if there were consensus to remove items from the topic/type-based organization just to add them to a catch-all "defunct" list -- and then, not even all of the defunct ones, but all of the ones that are obviously defunct per reliable sourcing. โ
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article (a tricky one because to be notable at all requires some kind of significant coverage in reliable sources). I'm not suggesting anything needs to be removed right now, but we should look for more sources to add (any reliable source that does more than just mention it).
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Everything on the net can be accessed by Tor, but some sites have set up .onion sites as well (such as those listed). They're functionally no different from the other hidden sites listed as far as I know -- they just aren't "hidden" in the typical sense of the word. --โ
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I agree to adding descriptions for everything, but I suggest not using inline sources because of the maintenance commitment that will create. You might have to use 3 sources just to create a 10 word summary for instance. Applicable to items with their own article
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I think if this is the way others want to go, it probably makes sense to include shot descriptions and sources with all of them, not just those without articles. A uniform appearance and it could potentially turn into a really nice list, I think. โ
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Ok. I see you made these changes. Would you mind doing the same at the
Template? I do still think the status shouldn't be given unless it's properly sourced at the main article for that site, but this seems like a good way to go for now. --โ
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Aside from the initial time to do so, I don't see a downside to including descriptions/sources for everything, even if they exist at the article. I mean that's the ideal for all lists on
Knowledge, but for the most part it's just not worth
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Separating defunct sites into a blanket "historical" section also removes all context the navbox otherwise provides (i.e. what kind of site it is). Other than serving as a guide to Tor, what purpose does separating them as such have? --โ
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As part of the migration of "hidden services" to "onion services", I'm going to move this article to "List of Tor onion services". I'll do so in about a week, assuming there are no protests, for the reasons listed in the
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tor hidden services? are we now adding any site which can be accessed by using some sort of tor based anomymous service? wouldnt that be everything on the net? the target articles dont mention tor, so why are they
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Trying to provide information that isn't offered elsewhere -- however useful and well intentioned -- will generally run afoul of several
Knowledge policies. I don't want to be spammy or redundant, so will link to
364:{{cite book | url=http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596001100.do | title=Peer-to-Peer: Harnessing the Power of Disruptive Technologies | publisher=O'Reilly Media | author=Oram, Andy | year=2001}}</ref: -->
374:* ] - A distributed anonymous file storage system that places focus on persistent availability of data. The ] students' work on the project led to collaboration with ] to develop Tor.<ref name="ieee"/: -->
359:* ] - A distributed anonymous file storage system that places focus on persistent availability of data. The ] students' work on the project led to collaboration with ] to develop Tor.<ref name="ieee": -->
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include descriptions and sources for all of them, and then for it to be a fork of this list? I don't follow why the descriptions/sources for markets with articles would make sense there but not here.
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to point in time, onion services aren't. We don't separate lists of bands into current and former bands; we don't separate books into those currently in/out of print because (a) while someone
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article is deleted, it will be removed from here). If you're just asking why these things are allowed on Tor, that's a different question, and one not really suited for Knowledge (see
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included 'list only' items with some decent sources. But having just a couple of decent sources doesn't always make for warranting its own article so I felt this was a nice compromise.
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395:"Do you mean that if a source is unavailable we have to update two articles...Or that the code required for a citation makes the list messy to work with?" Yes, both of these reasons
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clutter everything. Having a Defunct section should be conserve services that are notable while decluttering what people are likely seeing this list for a list of active services.
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Also, if you're going to add small summaries to the items with their own articles, I'm not sure it's worth adding sources on this page as the sources used on this page should
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unless it means the same as defunct, in which case I would point out it's notoriously difficult to find reliable sources about the status of a Tor hidden service (see
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This page is a good places to incubate as sites go from being notable enough to reliable source, through to notable enough to warrant their own article I feel
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I propose that we remove all defunct entries if they have been defunct for over 60 days -- this will avoid removal because of temporary outages. --
892:, not on an article that is a list of notable onion services. I'm therefore removing these again. If anyone disputes this, please discuss here. โ
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Why not reference the blog, news article and website. If you go to the website it should redirect you to v3 onion address(if they set it up)
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I have raised a question about what we should show in the infobox in place of a link in those cases, your views would be welcome there.
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
867:- this is fundamentally an index of articles about Tor onion services, rather than a user guide of services one can access now. โ
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Well, not exactly. Then .onion would be the same as https or using a vpn, which it's certainly not. But what's your point? --โ
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All defunct newspapers are in separate section. If you want, we can introduce 2nd and 3rd level heading for defunct services.
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There is one major difference between normal and .onion sites, when you visit a .onion site your connection is encrypted.
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visit such a list trying to find a guide to current offerings on the dark web/bands/books, that's not what Knowledge's
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As with the template, no talk of this since I posted it more than a week ago, so restoring previous organization. --โ
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The New Yorker's Strongbox (wait, they are accessible only through tor, but they are NOT a tor service, or are they?)
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There is consensus that for at least some onion sites that we should not give a link to the site from the article. At
205:, most lists on Knowledge aren't supposed to be exhaustive, but rather be "encyclopedic" (effectively a reference to
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I have to say I disagree with breaking the list down with a separate section for "Offline and defunct." Offline is
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The statistics graphs extend outside of their boxes. Also, what does "None" mean? There's already an "Other". โ
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I have to register my unease with including non-notable websites in a list on Knowledge. In order to fit with
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I added a couple descriptions, but I'll hold off doing anything else until I better understand what you mean.
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don't think we need to have "defunct" markings at all here, but as you can see above it was a compromise. โ
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I don't have access to 2nd and 3rd reference. Can someone verify if Free Haven ever had an onion service?
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the URLs could be cited from an index like skunksworkedp2cg.onion.to/sites.html but the url is blacklisted
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Removed temporarily until these can be resolved. Wikitext is hidden in an html comment below this line. โ
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
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until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
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in that comment I made 8 years ago. The point is, while GDP, average age, and other statistics are
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be cited in more detail on the dedicated page. Adding them in both places creates maintenance work.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Orbot, but they're not onion services. Any relation to onion services should be described in
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And when they do, they're often outdated, or not the most comprehensive or accurate indexes.
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where I said basically the same thing in more detail (before reading this talk page). --
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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service dead from 2006 should in no way be mixed with something that's still alive.
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Why would we remove defunct sites if they still meet the notability guidelines? โ
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 February 2#Babylon (marketplace)
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom
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What to display in the web address field when we don't give a link
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 3#TorSearch
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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 16#Hell (forum)
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
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Its just to try the actual .onion address for test purpose. --
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Talk:Index of hidden wikis and Tor hidden service directories
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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130602085826/http://btdigg.org/
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Secondary sources generally do not list Tor hidden services.
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Social networks as TORbook and BlackBook should be added.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
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Talk:The Hidden Wiki#Web address field in the infobox
539:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
258:I think this is an approach that should be used on
943:What counts as a reliable reference to Tor sites?
957:Many TOR URLs have been removed, ostensibly for
525:This message was posted before February 2018.
381:with the ref stuff under the refs heading. โ
262:which should then be split from this article.
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1400:the processes that get other people involved
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495:I have just modified one external link on
325:on darknet markets would be replaced with
883:This is just a list of Tor onion services
669:remove the people who do those things.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
1463:Was Free Haven ever an onion service?
1028:Just thought I'd open the discussion!
98:Hakkurz dont get a pass on this rule.
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624:Move to "List of Tor onion services"
770:๐๐ค๐ฏ๐บ๐ช๐ค๐๐๐ท๐ฎ๐ฅ๐๐บ๐ด๐๐๐ฐ
748:"Babylon (marketplace)" listed at
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838:Yes, and we have an article on a
822:List of former Tor onion services
499:. Please take a moment to review
410:issue and, if so, I'll fix it. โ
1502:. This discussion will occur at
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375:<ref name="net working"/: -->
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1167:Carrying this response from my
764:. The discussion will occur at
376:<ref name="peertopeer"/: -->
361:<ref name="net working": -->
18:Talk:List of Tor onion services
844:List of former French monarchs
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679:18:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
363:<ref name="peertopeer": -->
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287:draft:list of darknet markets
260:Draft:List of darknet markets
240:You may have noticed, I have
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1204:Template:Tor hidden services
1081:Separate offline and defunct
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1288:See this list for example:
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705:"TORCH (search)" listed at
497:List of Tor hidden services
108:05:26, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
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556:(last update: 5 June 2024)
492:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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405:15:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
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1424:"Hell (forum)" listed at
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88:09:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
1484:Redirects for discussion
1426:Redirects for discussion
1159:14:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
1103:01:04, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
750:Redirects for discussion
723:. Please participate in
707:Redirects for discussion
1498:and has thus listed it
1440:and has thus listed it
840:List of French monarchs
727:if you wish to do so.
725:the redirect discussion
488:External links modified
329:list of darknet markets
1482:"TorSearch" listed at
1346:I may have misapplied
846:, what's your point? โ
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119:Encyclopedia Dramatica
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816:Because this is the
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332:once it's complete.
1093:for example). --โ
960:"lacking citation"
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826:Guy Macon
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732:Steel1943
571:this tool
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130:Wikileaks
126:Indymedia
113:What now?
80:Thryduulf
61:Archiveย 1
1508:Greatder
1469:Greatder
1402:like an
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1296:Greatder
1068:Greatder
1033:Sgutkind
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820:not the
783:Proposal
774:๐๐ฎ๐ญ๐
606:unsigned
577:Cheers.โ
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117:how are
924:Hacking
598:TORbook
501:my edit
39:archive
1404:WP:RFC
1206:. --โ
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865:Oppose
251:always
203:WP:NOT
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1356:might
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1284:Tga.D
1129:Yes.
689:). โ
664:Hacks
648:Done
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133:here?
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