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would have taken the whole damn thing out as per "Be Bold," but I'm afraid to violate Wiki's unwritten rule - "don't piss other people off." There was one source for the whole clusterf_-! of a section, and it didn't appear to be reliable. I glanced around at other portions of the writing on this page, and I saw a lot that was pretty horrendous. This is a big article, so it's not like I can fix it all myself, though I'm glad to help, but I request two things: 1)Can someone with a good grip on the
English language go through this and fix the poor writing that I see mussing up this article? 2)Can some reliable sources be cited? I know it's difficult to find sources that explain plotlines, etc., but there must be some way - right?
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important; it is one of the key ways that characterization is expressed. Bruce's mustache, and name for that matter, are stereotypes of gay men that were common in the early 80s; their use reinforces the nature of the character as a stereotypical (presumably) gay man (never actually been said, as a matter of fact). It's not trivial, it's part of how the creators have defined the character. So describing what the character looks like is something we should definitely be doing.
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WP's general standards and ideals. I think there's a valid argument that while the article might contain less material if anything not covered by third-parties was removed, it might also improve the quality of the article overall and in particular make it more encyclopedic rather than a hotbed of cruft or trivia (which is not to say that is how I currently perceive it). Just my two cents...I'd certainly want the input of others before making any drastic changes.
582:, then its triviality relative to other character traits that have been mentioned in this article (and specifically this discussion) should be self-consistently reasoned. I have not yet received a reasonable explanation as to why the way I maintain my facial hair is more important than my inability to choose when to defecate. Failure to do so, as I have indicated earlier, relegates this editorial decision to (cultural) bias regarding a taboo subject.
482:. We're not. We can't read into an aspect of a fictional character that isn't portrayed as major issue, unless someone else does it first in a reliable source. ) That said, there is a valid point made about Joe not having his own article. He did until it was merged here due to concerns of lacking independent notability. If some commentary on the character can be found, then re-establishing a separate article may be the best course of action.
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people, if you're reading this before altering this article in some way - at the very least, type it up in
Microsoft Word, since it'll tell you if your spelling or grammar are completely wrong. I love Knowledge, and I understand the "anyone can edit" idea, but I really think it and voting for president should be handled the same way - anyone can do it, provided they can score over 100 on an IQ test first! Cheers,
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I feel that since Joe's erectile dysfunction is the subject of a plot (or at least what leads into its plot), namely Bonnie cheating on Joe, it warrants mention. It can easily be stated "Joe was injured in the line of duty and made a paraplegic. He is unable to have sex, and his incontinence requires
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Basic description of easily observable facts (mustaches, nicknames, profession) are fine to keep as they give a basic description/understanding of the character. The incontinence, much like Stewie's short member and
Quagmire's use of carrots are entirely different (apples v oranges, my friend). Are
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Meanwhile, real life considerations of what are defining are decidedly less important when dealing with fictional characters. Joe's incontinence has only been mentioned in passing a couple of times, and hasn't had any impact on actual plots (though correct me if I'm wrong). That says to me that it's
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I'm willing to go either way on it (most particularly, I'm not likely to cut a lot of material from an article of this nature), but it has been my observation that articles like this one tend to acquire a lot of material that really probably isn't of interest to a general reader, and drift away from
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right. Much (if not all) of this entire article is trivial. However, I am of the opinion that every trivial detail is created equal, as it were. We (the
Knowledge community) clearly have different ideals on what constitutes triviality even in a fictional universe. We now have five users on this
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Wow, that was 6 years ago. Apparently it was decided on the talk page or something. Looking at the article previous to it, there was very little, if any, sourcing and barely any content. That's probably why. I'm not against having an article, but if it resembles the previous incarnation then I'd
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Created the Joe page last night but it was redirected. All of the other characters in the bear as well as Mayor West off the top of my head have pages. Joe is a major character (his voice actor isn't credited as starring) but that, I feel, here is irrelevant. What I want to know is: how come Peter
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Jeesh. I just edited the page, changing a whole bit about Joe
Swanson. I edited the section concerning Swanson being injured by heroin criminal Bobby Briggs. The writing was some of the worst I've ever read - absolutely not proofread in any way, with poor wording, run-on sentences, etc. etc. I
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i think we must be careful to not state something as defining a character when it's not depicted as such in the series. I agree that there's certainly a bit of that in the article as it stands. Character name, appearance, occupation, and significant, recurring personality traits are what we should
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Alright, deal. I'll do some, too, when I have a few minutes break from college work. It just seems like such a shame; it'd be nice to have a reasonable list of characters and simple backgrounds for them, but Wiki's rule that anyone can edit is definitely not doing this page any favors. Please,
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I can agree with the keeping of the mustache on the grounds that it's clearly visible in any episode in which the pertinent character appears. Pretty much agreed on the rest of what you said as well. I don't recall anything being said of Joe's incontinence in earlier DVD commentaries, but I don't
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Since you asked...with regards to triviality, I'd fall back on the question of, "has it received any significant third-party coverage?" If so, then I would argue it's worthy of inclusion. If not, then I think the argument that "it's trivial" has merit and the mention should be omitted, especially
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We don't need to section off anymore than we have. To whom would it be relevant to, if we were to section off the list based on their profession, lineage, etc.? An average person with no knowledge of the series would not care about this sectioning, and the fanbase should have very little trouble
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I'd certainly be okay with removing the bit about "Babs" (or even moving it to the Carter sectio, as; it's more about him and his attitude towards
Barbara; even there it's pretty trivial). And I've softened towards the mention of Joe's incontinence, but I still think it's far less important than
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Above, Klapp wrote "In real life, I would still imagine that whether or not one has a mustache is less self-defining than the inability to refrain from soiling your pants." Some thoughts on this. Firstly, when describing a fictional character, especially a drawn one, aesthetic appearance is very
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condition. Using Klapp's logic, we should also include the information that Stewie has a micro penis, as it's been mentioned a couple times as well. Neither of these details belong in their respective articles because they have no real real-world impact on who/what the characters are; they are
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I think we stand at relatively similar positions on the subject, my only difference being that I ultimately favor just adding the aforementioned hyperlinked "incontinent" adjective in Joe's character description. Perhaps someone with a little more experience than me will know how (and take the
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I'd still like to see a source (surely there's DVD commentary on this?) of some sort. We should also mention his erectile difficulties, as those are mentioned at least as often as this detail and are (perhaps) stressed more due to its affect on his relationship with Bonnie as well. Also, the
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Subjects relating to defecation are often socially unacceptable, thus those affected may be beset by feelings of shame and humiliation. Some do not seek medical help and instead attempt to self-manage the problem. This can lead to social withdrawal and isolation, which can turn into cases of
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I think we should keep paraplegic as the primary adjective (ie: listed first) as the other two conditions are far less of a factor in his character than the lack of functioning legs. Something like: "... is a paraplegic who also suffers from impotence and incontinence". $ 0.02
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I don't believe we will likely find any details about Joe's disability in the DVD commentary. What is much more likely is that, at best, we would be able to point to episodes in which his incontinence is referenced, which, as is evidenced elsewhere in the page, appears to be
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for a casual reader to understand those characters? If you can reasonably explain the distinction I would be happy to concede your point. Furthermore, Carter's being in the shipping industry is referenced less often than Joe's incontinence, so I also fail to see how such a
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that a character detail that receives even a passing reference on multiple occasions is worthy of a one word acknowledgement. As a reference point, note that, at this time, at least two sentences of his one paragraph character description are dedicated to explaining his
666:). Conceding at the outset that I am an inclusionist, I am of the opinion that we would not have much left on this page if we removed every character detail that was at least as trivial as the one under discussion. In fact, this has been a key point in my arguments:
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of one secondary character and completely omitting something as life altering as the fecal incontinence and even impotence of another character (and I encourage you to read our articles on these subjects if you find that assertion disagreeable), to me, seems out of
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I agree. Joe is not a real person, so questions of human dignity don't play into this debate as they otherwise would. My point was more in the direction of why are we allowing the inclusion of some equally under-sourced character traits while omitting others?
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And to summarize my thoughts, it seems a relatively minor detail. It's not the sort if thing mentioned every appearance. But I would like to hear from others. I just ask that the discussion continue here (don't need a ton of extra messages on my talk page).
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indicates, paraplegia does not necessarily imply incontinence; so Joe being a paraplegic does not make incontinence a given, nor is it redundant. There shouldn't be an issue having this information in the article. It being trivial is merely an opinion.
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and couldn't help notice the similarities between the character Wade
Gustafson (rich guy whose daughter is kidnapped) and Carter Pewterschmidt. Both are rich and very determined, but their voices are almost identical. Has anyone ever heard (and can
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to understanding his character. Knowing that Joe has bathroom issues (if this is worth including, then how about his impotence too?) is not basic to understanding him. Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter (this was a request for comment,
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The whole section about Bobby Briggs is far too detailed. I'm all for citing the information that Joe was actually crippled by Briggs, but it is absolutely unnecessary to include almost a whole plot of the episode. After all, the section
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I am not opposed to this idea, as long as we can reach a consensus that that is the best course of action. I would also prefer not to be on the hook for doing all of the prerequisite research and subsequent development on the
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be about Joe, not Bobby Briggs. You could just say that Joe eventually and unintentionally killed Briggs by shooting him in both legs and finally got his closure on the whole thing. That section really has to be revisited.
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that he wear a diaper." It's different from, say, that one-off joke that Peter used to be a woman - this hasn't been contradicted. Since we discover that he has these problems, we never see him contradicting these facts. -
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are willing to apply the same standard in every instance of triviality. By way of example, I have pointed to Bruce's mustache and
Barbara's pet name as at least equally trivial pieces of information (which, by the way
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If we are going to maintain such an interpretation of
Knowledge guidelines on the subject of triviality for Joe Swanson, it would seem that the only egalitarian path forward from such a resolution is to apply the
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could agree that this character detail is fat, and details like it should be removed for the sake of neutrality, unless, of course, we can just agree that Joe's incontinence is of sufficient importance
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I believe that the majority of
Wikipedians, myself included, would prefer to have the content they have added remain on this page, which is why I am in favor of keeping this detail about Joe on it.
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believes it is not. Please see the link to the latter's talk page for some background on the discussion. We are hoping that the community can come together for a resolution on the matter.
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For reference, my argument for its inclusion is that it referenced on multiple occasions in the series and its inclusion in Knowledge would consist a single internally hyper-linked word,
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of these details belong in their respective articles because they have no real real-world impact on who/what the characters are; they are merely in-universe character cruft (aka trivia).
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I would note that there's discussion pertinent to this matter in earlier threads above. Also, please outline what you have in mind. Your proposal is rather vague. Thank you.
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how the sentence is constructed as long as his incontinence (and I suppose, now, his impotence) is mentioned and it is hyperlinked to our wikipedia article on the subject.
244:. In my mind, such a mindset begs the question "would we rather add a one word detail about one character, or remove several words, phrases and/or entire sentences from
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initiative) to call a vote on the subject matter, if we only we could come to an agreement one what we would be voting for or against in the context of this discussion.
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limit it to. There's a bit of leeway in the latter, so future discussions such as this are likely to happen again, but that's a strength of Knowledge, not a weakness.
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This series' foundation is triviality. But I digress, it is a pretty frequent and notable aspect of his character that he is unable to have sex and wears a diaper. -
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important character trait, although it is clearly no less a matter of opinion than my own about Joe's incontinence, let us focus on something about which
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test without including something this significant, is at best an act of bias that marginalizes his condition, and at worst an act of editorial injustice.
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In real life, I would still imagine that whether or not one has a mustache is less self-defining than the inability to refrain from soiling your pants.
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it were enough to say that Carter was very wealthy (and please note that I am not singling out Carter; this is just one example). On the other hand,
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if we are willing to keep increasingly obscure details about one or more other characters on this page, we should provide equal consideration for
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descriptions of the characters; like female, teenager, baby, fat, skinny, unemployed, fisherman, etc. Knowing that Carter is a wealthy mogul is
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I moved this paragraph. Please don't put responses inside other's postings. It's a bit rude. Also, no need to (boldface) shout. I answer below.
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have his own wiki page, makes it difficult even to make such a comparison of criteria for inclusion. On the other hand, if we were to look at
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trivial pieces of information, as would be Bruce's mustache and Carter's status in the shipping industry, since one could argue that none
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them now, hopefully they will be alerted to this discussion and point out where the consensus to redirect was established. Regards
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I support what he says BertSampson. They should be sections of the relatives of the Griffins, Quaghog families, reporters, etc.--
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since while it may have been mentioned frequently, it hasn't (as far as I can recall) been a key factor in any episode to date.
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Reorganization may be ok (depending on how its done) but the addition of minor characters lately is completely unnecessary.
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in the article, yet both play significant roles in a number of episodes throughout the series (especially Jesus, like in "
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Just a thought about Bruce (or his mustache, if you will). A description of appearance is pretty basic, if you ask me.
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from this article to get each character description to conform with the inclusion rules you (and others) have proposed.
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1)In which industry Carter made his fortune has no more bearing on the show's universe than does Joe's incontinence.
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as to whether Joe Swanson's (fecal and/or urinary) incontinence is worthy of inclusion in the character outline.
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Ya, too many fans just add random stuff and poorly write it. If I'm bored at work some night, I'll read it over.
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I agree that this is a trivial detail that does not need to be included, especially since its root cause is his
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He was removed yesterday, I restored him and he is listed there now. Perhaps you're viewing a cached version. –
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I'm sorry, but I do not quite follow your reasoning. How is Barbara's accent or pet name, or Bruce's mustache
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has suggested. If anyone still has a problem with inclusion of the material, we can keep hashing it out here.
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thread (2 for and 2 against- I leave myself out since I started the discussion). How do we reach a consensus?
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Fine, the mustache stays. Would everyone be content if we simply altered Joe's bio to state that he is an "
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that knowing Carter is wealthy is essential to understanding his character. In fact, I think that it is
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to understanding Carter as Joe's paraplegia is to understanding his character. The distinction I was
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Has anyone ever found any interviews or anything with Seth as to why he killed off Diane Simmons?
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I think it would be better to divide the characters into sections to make it better for readers.--
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Upon reflection, a section detailing his frustrations in life might be worth including if it were
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Either we include what I believe would be an absolutely non-trivial detail about Joe Swanson,
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Saying that he has a mustache tells the reader a major aspect of his physical appearance. -
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As I had alluded to earlier, simply stating that Joe has paraplegia would be enough for me,
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reasoning, it would seem arguable that Barbara's accent and Carter's pet name for her are
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Given that Joe's incontinence is referenced in more than one episode qualifies it as a
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instances of similar triviality (of which I will demonstrate only a few for brevity):
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To be fair, other details about Stewie that are arguably as trivial as his micropenis
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To me, this seems at least as noteworthy as an aesthetic change to one's appearance.
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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As for the idea that Joe's incontinence is "life altering", that would be true
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mustache stays! It's a basic descriptive element (like Louis' red hair, etc).
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for a casual reader to understand the character? No? Then it's trivia.
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Quagmire and Cleveland get their own pges while Joe does not? Thank you
1379:) whether Seth MacFarlane used this character as a reference for Carter?
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mentioning his impotence, as the latter has driven some plots/subplots.
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I don't know if someone deleted him, but he isn't in the list at all.
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She often speaks in an English accent. Carter often calls her "Babs."
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not considered a significant, defining trait by the show creators.
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other characters listed on this page who do not have their own wiki
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I accidentally deleted the majority of the page. Please help!
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Then by all means, proceed. I'm sure you have their blessing.
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Was Carter Pewterschmidt based on Wade Gustafson in the film
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has this to say about its "life altering" characteristics:
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in his character description. Nevertheless, the fact that
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Why does Joe not have a page when the other characters do?
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I also think it would help readers to orient themselves.--
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his paraplegia (as you were quick to point out) does not.
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To me, this follows the most basic of human reasoning.
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seems to be arguing: Carter's pet name for Barbara.
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relative to other character details in this article
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Talk:List of characters in the Family Guy franchise
1121:Possibly inspired by assignment reporter for KTTV
820:has repeatedly latched onto Bruce's mustache as a
672:, or we begin the arduous process of cutting out
149:merely in-universe character cruft (aka trivia).
1473:created the redirect in the first place. I have
248:the other characters where equally appropriate?"
1094:navigating the list with minimal sectioning. -
983:Thank you everyone for the constructive debate.
664:received any significant third-party coverage
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558:character trait. As Knowledge's article on
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348:Things like names and appearance are
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75:Joe Swanson Incontinence
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830:I would hope that even
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190:, one can easily find
450:enough for inclusion.
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1525:— Preceding
1522:
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1300:Jesus Christ
1293:
1277:It's Raining
1230:It's Raining
1221:
1217:
1175:— Preceding
1172:
1127:Jerome Potts
1120:
1048:85.60.191.59
1016:
969:Looks fine.
836:
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674:a lot of fat
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661:
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579:
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509:agoraphobia.
507:
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479:
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448:well sourced
442:
436:
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389:as essential
388:
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362:well sourced
353:
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325:incontinence
324:
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172:are included
171:
126:
78:
65:
43:
37:
1531:Kylerwyler1
1425:Crummymummy
1344:Chunk5Darth
1312:Davykamanzi
1169:Joe Swanson
1146:speculation
1125:in L.A.? --
1019:BertSampson
933:I honestly
894:incontinent
565:Geeky Randy
403:facial hair
176:Joe Swanson
130:paraplegia.
123:incontinent
36:This is an
1555:Spartan198
1308:Family Goy
1203:Projectors
897:paraplegic
560:paraplegia
323:but Joe's
271:paraplegia
146:paraplegic
1471:this edit
1331:alter ego
971:oknazevad
858:oknazevad
832:oknazevad
818:oknazevad
783:oknazevad
556:recurring
524:oknazevad
484:oknazevad
312:necessary
289:necessary
225:Dp76764's
109:oknazevad
89:oknazevad
66:Archive 2
60:Archive 1
1539:contribs
1527:unsigned
1419:Accident
1325:contribs
1222:Cheers!
1177:unsigned
1062:ToonsFan
1013:Sections
891:impotent
615:You are
539:subject.
425:of them.
410:balance.
407:pet name
184:does not
1467:Dp76764
1272:"Yes...
1225:"Yes...
1198:Anemone
1034:Doniago
985:KlappCK
957:KlappCK
953:Dp76764
939:KlappCK
901:KlappCK
843:KlappCK
760:Doniago
710:KlappCK
695:Doniago
680:KlappCK
651:Doniago
637:Doniago
622:KlappCK
584:KlappCK
541:KlappCK
513:KlappCK
452:KlappCK
336:KlappCK
317:trivial
250:KlappCK
229:equally
178:unlike
132:KlappCK
127:opinion
93:KlappCK
85:KlappCK
39:archive
1475:pinged
1401:should
1306:" or "
1142:source
1140:Got a
1100:(talk)
876:(talk)
826:no one
816:Since
802:(talk)
602:(talk)
393:trying
206:Bruce:
1502:76764
1369:Fargo
1360:Fargo
1154:76764
1080:76764
920:76764
729:76764
385:agree
370:76764
357:no?).
354:basic
350:basic
297:76764
155:76764
16:<
1559:talk
1535:talk
1507:Talk
1449:talk
1429:talk
1410:talk
1385:talk
1376:cite
1348:talk
1319:talk
1310:").
1185:talk
1159:Talk
1131:talk
1085:Talk
1066:talk
1052:talk
1038:talk
1023:talk
989:talk
975:talk
961:talk
943:talk
925:Talk
905:talk
862:talk
847:talk
822:very
787:talk
764:talk
734:Talk
714:talk
699:talk
684:talk
660:has
641:talk
626:talk
588:talk
569:talk
545:talk
528:talk
517:talk
488:talk
456:talk
435:and
375:Talk
340:talk
302:Talk
254:talk
192:many
160:Talk
136:talk
113:talk
97:talk
1486:Why
1381:ML5
1298:or
1296:God
662:not
423:all
405:or
332:and
246:all
240:to
223:By
1561:)
1541:)
1537:•
1509:)
1499:DP
1481:So
1451:)
1431:)
1412:)
1387:)
1350:)
1328:•
1322:•
1314:→
1280:"
1233:"
1206:–
1187:)
1161:)
1151:DP
1148:.
1133:)
1087:)
1077:DP
1068:)
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945:)
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917:DP
907:)
899:"?
864:)
849:)
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766:)
736:)
726:DP
716:)
701:)
686:)
655:we
643:)
628:)
617:so
590:)
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547:)
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417:if
377:)
367:DP
342:)
304:)
294:DP
256:)
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152:DP
138:)
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99:)
1557:(
1533:(
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1463::
1459:@
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1259:!
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50:.
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