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534:, these guys would have a safety net a few yards beneath them, which the cameraman has cropped. I don't know if Ebbets ever admitted it (according to his daughter, he had a "sense of humor and adventure"), but to my eye this is clearly a staged photo. No doubt the workers were real, and their high-wire nonchalance came with the territory. But they were recruited into posing and sitting in a row with their various props, and turning the sky 800 feet above New York into an image of (precarious) domesticity. That's the gimmick here.
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1011:
PS We do have a
Wayback-machined copy of the Irish newspaper article; but actually it's a free newspaper, it's an unsigned article, and the credulous writer uncritically recycles what was said to him or her by "Shanaglish publican Michael Whelan", who seems to have uncritically recycled what was said
563:
The man on the right is the grandfather of a good friend of mine (Irish
Catholic from Brooklyn, Mr. Flynn), he is missing a finger on his left hand. Apparently some of the men were Native American (so said my friend's father and another friend of mine mentioned this as well). However I have heard the
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It's undoubtedly posed, though there is some dispute regarding the safety net (if there was one, it doesn't seem to me to diminish the effect). But what I'm most interested in from others is the background on the photo. Who were these 11 men? How did
Ebbetts come to conceive the shot? Backstory,
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With the conceivable exception of an article in an Irish newspaper (once available on the web, but seemingly no longer), even the best among the sources cited here are junk. Some person claims that this or that person is the same as his or her grandpappy, great-uncle, or whatever; and gets a journo
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We too are very interested in knowing some of the names of the men in the picture Lunch On A Skyscraper. Interestingly, we recognize the third man from the left as possibly a blood relative of Harry W. Schwalm. Every detail of this man could pass for Harry's twin. Is there any source identifying
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The photo could be real, and the men indeed hundreds of feet above street level. However, there's probably a plank floor about six feet below them. At the bottom left, some I-beams can be seen. The photographer probably cropped the photo just where the planks going perpendicular to the beams would
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I don't think it's significant that one publisher cares to capitalize this preposition. As for reproduction rights, it's not a matter of asking for permission to place an image on WP; instead, it's one of asking for a small version of the image to be copylefted, or more precisely released with the
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The few remaining "sourced" claims are themselves highly dubious. They all depend on the say-so of some descendant, with little or no evidence of any fact-checking by the publication. If a disinterested historian investigates the matter and publishes the result somewhere credible, I'll think that
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photo of the men was actually superimposed over a shot with more altitude (the son of the man on the right said it would make no sense to eat lunch that high up), giving the impression that they are very high up. I actually came to wikipedia to see if that was true. Now I'm not sure. Anyone know?
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In 1986 I was in the area of Port
Stewart when I came across the same photo, with other photographs of the now older men, pointing to who they were in the photograph. Some had been taken in that pub ( I can't remember the name of the pub ), but it looked like a re-union, and would hold with the
627:
It does not matter if the photographer staged the photo or not. When you frame it, you ARE controlling the scene as well and that kind of argument has been a dead issue for several years. But my questions is After 70 years, how come this photograph still copyrighted though many had been sold by
906:
Man at the right with bottle in his hand is Gusti
Popovic, sawyer from Eastern Slovakia - Spiš. He sent this photo in 1932 as a postcard to his wife to Slovakia with words: "Don't worry my dear Mariska, as you see I'm always OK with my bottle. Yours Gusti." (Slovak: "Nič še ty neboj, moja milá
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Who were these men? My sister and I think the 3rd from the left was our
Grandfather, Bernhard Lawrence. His physical looks (short stubby legs) and dress make him a match. He made his living in NYC working buildings and bridges so it fits. We would like to know the names of all in the picture.
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Let's give it a week and then scrap it if by then there are neither (a) reasoned arguments here for retaining the section with assertions as dubious as those now in it, nor (b) more convincing assertions. Though I'd have no objection to an RfC, if anyone thinks this is warranted. --
1246:". It's in Czech. I can't read Czech. I can, however, have my browser show that none of "Eckner", "Breheny", "Svensson", "Madden" or "Rice" appears in that page. So the claims for Eckner, Breheny, Svensson, Madden and Rice have not been accompanied by a source and are worthless.
1272:, the Popovič family archives contain this image send as postcard from US to Slovakia to "Beloved Marička" (his wife Mária) by Gusti. Popovič later returned to Slovakia and was killed by hand grenade at the end of the WWII. On the other hand, a relative speaking in a video in
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If they were close to the ground (as can be suspected), how was the photography doctored to make them seem to be so high above street level? References to the photographic technique(s) used preferred; it seems the haze in the upper part of the photo indicates manipulation.
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In 1932 he sent his wife Mariška a postcard with this photograph on which he wrote, "Don´t you worry, my dear Mariška, as you can see I'm still with bottle. Your Gusti." Gustáv and Mariška's joint grave in the Vyšný Slavkov cemetery is decorated with the legendary
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lists the name of the photo as "New York
Construction Workers Lunching on a Crossbeam" (yes, of course, they also did not know who acknowledge Ebbetts as the photographer until 2003). I think we should be free to use the grammatically correct capitalization.
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to be this or that person. The evidence adduced so far has been very feeble. If you can present published evidence for this particular claim, showing that the claim has been investigated by some disinterested person, then let's see this evidence. --
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of some of them napping after the meal, although I'd have to imagine it was also staged to some effect. Perhaps there should be a link or some quick discussion of this picture in the article? There's a good writeup and more pictures
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per what seems to be more common in RS. Btw, commons files names should be considered meaningless to discussions like these, they don't have any consistency, and are never changed unless a file is labeled completely incorrectly.
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There is a pub in
Laytown, Ireland named "Gilnas" that has the photos and the names of all the men on it . most are native Irish, It is several years ago I saw it. They should still have it over the fireplace in the main bar.
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Hi! I am not aware of any such guideline, but these decisions are often left to editor's discretion. I had made this separation, primarily as we have large chuck of texts for translation of the non-English source material. –
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I therefore propose to delete this entire section. Material about identities can be reintroduced IFF the material cites at least one article that itself shows signs of critical intelligence (and therefore scepticism). --
958:, in which a sourced claim (well, kind of sourced) was deleted and replaced by an unsourced claim, was merely the latest grisly development in the embarrassingly bad section purporting to identify the men in the photo.
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That's exactly it, though. During those times, people weren't allowed to express their true gender identity. There's no way of knowing if these people were, in fact, men. We should change the language to reflect that.
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Was the photo a photomontage? The white cloud perfectly behind the workers seem to indicate that (airbrushing on the background negative), but oddly enough I have not been able to find any articles discussing this.
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There are several mentions of these people being men, but there is no source to prove that's how they identify. We should update the language to "people" until there are sources that prove how they identify.
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is there that "From the left, number three is Joseph Eckner, number four is
Michael Breheny, number five is Albin Svensson and number six with the cigarette is Peter Rice, A Mohawk ironworker from Kahnawake
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I wouldn't propose that as a model for this article: its coverage of the competing claims is verbose. But at least there is citing of attempts to verify, attempts whose crappiness isn't blazingly obvious.
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2048:; there is no good reason for caps there. This should have been a technical undo of the undiscussed move of last month. If there's no obvious consensus here, it should be back to status quo ante.
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From the left, number three is Joseph Eckner, number four is
Michael Breheny, number five is Albin Svensson and number six with the cigarette is Peter Rice, A Mohawk ironworker from Kahnawake Canada.
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It was a "publicity stunt", the publication did not cause any major discussion. Although, it is an iconic image. As for the regulations, that is not directly related with the article, and mostly no
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image have a very obvious haloing effect around the men, which leads me to believe this image was created with printing trickery. I've always loved the image, but I never noticed it until today.
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Given the almost universal segregation of gender roles at the time of the photograph a female construction worker would have been so unusual that it would have commented on contemporaneously.
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Ebbets was uncredited until 2003, so there is no official title of his choosing. The fact that "Lunchtime Atop a Skyscraper" appears on a dorm room poster does not, to me, seem determinative.
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1926:'s explanation. I really don't believe that Knowledge should alter the titles of published works, known under these published names, just because the publisher used a different style. --
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2092:. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the
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Does this really need to be there? It contains only one "fact"---which is an anecdote about a British sports team irrelevant to a photo of construction of an American building.
1222:, an IP replaces the unsourced claim that one man was "John Patrick Madden" with the unsourced claim that he was instead "Peter Rice, A Mohawk ironworker from Kahnawake Canada".
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Note that the correct title of this article should be "Lunch atop a Skyscraper" and not "Lunchtime Atop a Skyscraper". Perhaps someone with sufficient privileges can move it? --
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is a black-and-white photograph taken on September 20, 1932, of eleven ironworkers sitting on a steel beam 850 feet (260 m) above the ground on the sixty-ninth floor of the
1825:— I appreciate this discussion, but I'll repeat my reasoning. I re-wrote this article and successfully nominated it for GAN. 'a' in 'atop' is in uppercase in most of the
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What were the safety regulations for these constructions at the time? Where they violated, and if so, did the publication of the photo cause a discussion on regulations?
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That source says "Lunch Atop a Skyscraper" was the caption, not the title of the work. Many works use title-case caption style, with various rules for prepositions.
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It seems odd to say that the one is the correct title and the other isn't. Rather, one has more normal orthography than the other. Anyway, I'll make the change. --
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Are you serious or just trying to expose the absurdity of the "gender" concept? Impossible to know for sure, even if you claim the former, so a classic example of
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by somebody to add an unsourced claim that her Pa was in the photo (and simultaneously to remove the sourced claim that it was somebody else) prompted me to
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Why would professional photographers want to buy archived images? Corbis is a stock photo agency, and its customers are media (or advertising) enterprises.
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Different publishers have different styles with regard to four-letter prepositions in titles. Some capitalize them; some don't. Knowledge doesn't.
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I have bought a large Posterprint about 12 years ago and it has its title printed in the left bottom corner. It is "Lunchtime Atop a Skyscraper".
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There is an issue with ninth worker some time his name mentioned as Stretch Donahue but in the article it's a Peter Sausage. Here is an example
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has the title in "direct quotation" with 'A' capitalized. That being said, I have no objections if the title is again moved to status quo. –
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Some sources in Slovak language mention Gusti Popovič as Nr. 11 on the photo (the person on the right, holding bottle). According to
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a favorite of Irish hacks looking for somebody to quote. I'm no more impressed than I was when I wrote my previous comment above. --
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Do you have a source for an original title of this work? It appears to me to be something made up in the last 20 years or so. Or
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Read the stuff above. You'll see that purported (but worthless) identifications have been added to the article for some time.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Was the photo taken seriously at the time? Or was it obvious to contemporaries that it is a montage (if in fact it is)?
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This articles doesn't provide vital information that most readers would naturally expect for such a peculiar image:
260:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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this section should be based on these findings. I still think that the section as it is now should be scrapped. --
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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btw.: If we knew who owns the rights today, we may ask him wether he allows wikipedia to place a image here.
2154:, part of a campaign promoting the skyscraper. The photograph was first published in October 1932, during the
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https://web.archive.org/web/20130102064519/http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/reaching-the-heights/
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I wasn't referring to the file name; I was referring to the title as it appears in the "Summary" section.
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What does "officially" add to "The Corbis corporation is now officially returning its status to unknown"?
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Are the men indeed 'hundreds of feet above the New York city streets', or what was their altitude?
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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In 1995, Corbis Images, a company that provides archived images to professional photographers,...
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being a preposition of fewer than five letters). Related, but not dispositive, is the fact that
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Confusing. Rephrased for now that the image was found on his estate, with the quote written. –
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cited. I assume it is a part of the title of the image, aside from being a preposition. See
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to quote this or (the Swedish example) writes it himself. This is very, very feeble stuff.
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I don't know for a fact about superimposition, but I will say that both this image and the
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The Simpsons parodied Lunch atop a Skyscraper with one of the couch gags in this episode.
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Most of these claims are entirely unsourced. Until a recent edit of mine, the claim that
1796:. Reliable sources capitalizing "Atop" needn't supersede a consistent sitewide style. —
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as Francis Michael Rafferty; the ninth man is his lifelong best friend, Stretch Donahue
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is selling prints under the title "Construction Workers Lunching on a Crossbeam, 1932".
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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First, please don't insert a comment within somebody else's comment. Instead, add it
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it shows that his wife has died in 1930 so he couldn't send her a letter in 1932...
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and find something better to spend your limited time on Earth doing. Sincerely,
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There have been numerous claims regarding the identities of the men in the image
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Fourth man from the left is said to be William O'Driscoll from Newfoundland.
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native Irish claim. It has followed me around ever since! Here it is again!!
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http://www.slovenskezahranicie.sk/data/7508031e51f45ed9cfa4908c1ad4062f.jpg
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is from 2003, and doesn't mention any title for this "famous photograph".
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by the son of a claimant. Meanwhile, "Shanaglish publican Michael Whelan"
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http://quigleyscabinet.blogspot.com/2009/06/photography-of-lewis-hine.html
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Why do this? Most people in the world can read more than one language.
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Not noticed this separation of English sources and non-English before.
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Is there a Knowledge policy? EDLIS Café 17:53, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
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A week has gone by with no objection, so I've deleted the section. --
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13 years later, I moved it back to 'Atop', as that is was most of the
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a company that provides archived images to professional photographers
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This section of the article should be referenced closer or removed.--
2031:. This is a matter of style that varies and we have our own style.
1229:. And none of them has any value whatever, unless reliably sourced.
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used in this article, has been selected as the English Knowledge's
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http://6thfloor.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/reaching-the-heights/
1040:(see the comments, unblemished by any hint of real evidence). --
1790:). "Atop" is also not part of a phrasal verb a la "Get Into" in
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From what is recorded of the (simultaneous) construction of the
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some confusing data about supposed identity of one of the men
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Information to add to the "Legacy" section of this article:
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was also capitalized when the image was first published in
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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the pic of the grave by the 14th reference is confusing
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Mariška, jak vidziš, ta ja furt s fľašečku. Tvoj Gusti.")
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most famous picture of a lunch break in New York history
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2096:. If you have any concerns, please place a message at
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File:Lunch atop a Skyscraper - Charles Clyde Ebbets.jpg
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No more unsourced claims of identification, please. --
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Knowledge Did you know articles that are good articles
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Knowledge:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue
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http://simpsons.wikia.com/The_Dad_Who_Knew_Too_Little
2142:(30 Rockefeller Plaza), then nearing completion, at
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I have therefore just now removed from the article:
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1415:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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The source that appears to be adduced for this is "
1808:— for the reasons given. "Atop" is a preposition.
1091:I do agree; the sources are just too marginal. --
2010:. Our Manual of Style trumps external sources.
1244:Oběd na vrcholu mrakodrapu: jak to opravdu bylo
1962:: Well, I don't have the original source, but
1401:This message was posted before February 2018.
1268:(2014) published by Slovak regional newspaper
951:The men in the photo: Delete the whole section
48:If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
1280:says that the postcard is apparently lost. --
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1591:Please stop wasting people's time trying to
680:, but I am not sure, if it can be trusted.--
440:http://simpsons.wikia.com/List_of_couch_gags
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1613:I don't always support the essay,
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431:Can someone please add this parody
410:WikiProject History of photography
273:Template:WikiProject New York City
33:Art and architecture good articles
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2098:Knowledge talk:Picture of the day
1375:. Please take a moment to review
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41:. If you can improve it further,
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290:This article has been rated as
151:was actually a publicity stunt?
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1333:00:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
29:has been listed as one of the
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2417:GA-Class Photography articles
1358:22:46, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
1294:16:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
1259:23:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
1183:Men napping atop a skyscraper
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491:13:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
464:10:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
407:This article is supported by
359:and see a list of open tasks.
264:and see a list of open tasks.
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1683:16:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
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141:Did you know ... that the "
139:The text of the entry was:
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2326:To add to "Legacy" section
1690:Requested move 27 May 2022
1432:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1368:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1187:There's a related picture
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296:project's importance scale
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1818:23:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
1801:22:53, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
1766:22:39, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
1750:the file page on Commons
1728:04:09, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
1704:Please do not modify it.
1609:20:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
1587:01:41, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
1206:20:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
1177:23:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
1135:Fourth man from the left
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1734:Lunch Atop a Skyscraper
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1568:09:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
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1373:Lunch atop a Skyscraper
1364:External links modified
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987:V-J Day in Times Square
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933:, it has references. –
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803:22:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
783:22:02, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
729:22:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
651:21:59, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
628:Times, etc? Anybody?
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348:WikiProject Photography
27:Lunch atop a Skyscraper
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1593:WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS
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133:May 27, 2022
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84:May 15, 2022
49:
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43:please do so
31:
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1880:Weak oppose
1774:— Fulfills
1709:move review
1579:Enbylicious
1540:Enbylicious
1282:Vejvančický
699:—Preceding
682:Petr Dlouhý
503:TheMindsEye
362:Photography
353:photography
319:Photography
2351:Categories
1464:Report bug
886:Mirarkitty
661:these men?
149:(pictured)
130:column on
37:under the
2294:EdRicardo
2243:file page
2148:Manhattan
2094:Main Page
1671:Poe's law
1447:this tool
1440:this tool
1305:this edit
1220:this edit
1143:this edit
1141:Added in
956:This edit
914:Bosintang
739:Ayvengo21
641:, etc. –
549:Mrbrianlk
486:GFDL. --
183:is rated
120:Main Page
2302:contribs
2290:unsigned
2050:Dicklyon
1985:Dicklyon
1981:This one
1960:Dicklyon
1946:Dicklyon
1560:JezGrove
1548:contribs
1536:unsigned
1480:picture.
1453:Cheers.—
1346:unsigned
1319:Canada"?
1299:Pinging
1290:contribs
1278:Nový čas
1093:jpgordon
984:Compare
721:Tintin47
701:unsigned
568:unsigned
536:Sandover
185:GA-class
51:reassess
2276:Sources
2233:history
2197:Archive
2046:Support
2025:Support
2012:Darkday
2004:Support
1823:Comment
1810:TypoBoy
1806:Support
1772:Support
1377:my edit
1066:remove
865:Orielno
663:PopNOma
615:Noabaak
389:on the
324:History
294:on the
122:in the
74:Process
2102:Ahecht
2008:MOS:CT
1922:, per
1920:Oppose
1798:Collin
1740:– Per
1604:design
1599:nagual
1270:Korzár
1198:Nerfer
965:nephew
929:As of
191:scale.
96:Listed
77:Result
2238:watch
1885:Aza24
1827:WP:RS
1718:Moved
1621:". –
1325:Hoary
1314:What
1251:Hoary
1169:Hoary
1155:below
1117:Hoary
1103:Hoary
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1018:seems
998:Hoary
814:WP:RS
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488:Hoary
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445:Title
172:This
2339:talk
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2109:PAGE
2107:TALK
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770:Done
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381:High
71:Date
2146:in
1619:men
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1391:to
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