Talk:Motor gunboat - Knowledge (XXG)

82: 64: 354: 2271:. In general, whenever we have a set phrase, that phrase may take on meanings not deducible from its parts, but that doesn't mean it gets capitalized. Note I'm not arguing either way here (I haven't voted), because I don't know the answer, but I'm trying to demolish incorrect arguments so we can concentrate on factors which are actually relevant. In general, though, our approach is not to capitalize unless we have specific reason to, and so far I don't think I see reason to. — 2584:(3) Though there is mention of the role of MGBs in defending the vital coal convoys from the Tyne and Tees to London and the Southeast, this major part of the usage of MGBs is dealt with in just one sentence. This needs substantial historical expansion. Among other things, the article could explain how, as the battle developed, MGBs started seeking out E-boats before they even got to the British side of the North Sea - so disrupting any attacks before they started. 3193:—when in doubt, downcase: that's in effect the message from MOS, Chicago, and Oxford. But to me there's no doubt. Even if the Royal Navy or the manufacturer has taken out a patent on it, and it's a commercial product, I would not recommend capping. Otherwise we're in for capping every unique component. At the heart of this, capping of this term I suspect owes something to the fallacy that expanded forms should cap the initials that comprise the initialism. Not so. 418: 370: 128: 3572:. The same advocates for 'Remove All Capitalisation' claimed falsely that that article was on a generic term, for the many mobile launcher platforms around the world, thus should be lowercased. However there are no such other platforms, only NASA's, and those are capitalised. We seem to be sacrificing accuracy for a couple of editor's dislike of capitalisation, even where that stems from the originator of a subject. 338: 386: 223: 3642:

forward on the boats. It's safe to say that these early boats, with their very non-standard origin and specifications, perhaps warrant articles of their own. There is information on them and the Type 'C' Fairmile (a boat with a limited 24 unit run) has its own, after all. I can't help thinking that, if these had been aeroplanes, they would already have said articles for each class and type.

33: 295: 284: 273: 262: 181: 145: 2807: 3150:, it not the uses in titles that matter here – it's the uses in sentences. So as Cinderella notes, the stats over-count capped forms, since the lexical match doesn't have a way to exclude the titles and headings, including references to book titles, that account for a lot of the caps. It's just stats. But the stats are telling. 2587:(4) The article should mention the co-operation between MTBs and MGBs in attacks on German shipping on their side of the North Sea. This includes the bolder MGBs passing at high speed very close in front of enemy shipping and dropping depth charges to sink or damage them (since, at that stage, they did not carry torpedoes). 3508: 2895:. I'm a Royal Navy officer with an enduring interest in naval history and in grammar, and I don't recognise your idea of a Royal Navy term that requires capitalisation. I just see poor grammar. I taught at the Advanced Command and Staff Course, and if you'd tried capitalising "motor gun boat", I'd have marked you down! 251: 3442: 3439: 2803: 1247:

Steam Frigate is a proper noun phrase. " Not the same thing at all. AFAIK, "steam frigate" has never been an official designation (rather than a descriptive term) for a class or type in the way MGB or MTB has, so it is comparable to remaking "PT boat". Clearly, "patrol, torpedo" is a descriptive, but

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They are clearly not proper nouns, any more than "county" or "shire" is a proper noun when restricted to the context of England. However, proper nouns are only a subset of what we capitalize. The question is how we've decided through the MOS to handle such situations. For military ranks, which it

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correctly, it comes down to whether names such as Motor Torpedo Boat, Motor Gun Boat, Steam Gun Boat - in these particular instances - are proper names (proper nouns), as opposed to "torpedo boat" which is a general term. I don't have access to the Chicago style guide or Fowlers at the moment but am

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Std RN practise is to ref to positions alphabetically fore to aft. A is forward-most, B immediately behind that, C, D & E roughly midships, X & Y nearest the stern, generally. (Rarely, Z, too.) Exactly where they are on any given ship depends on the number of actual positions, so an MTB will

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Andy, it's about guidelines, not dogma. Not sure why you have trouble understanding that n-gram stats are just stats; not RSs, not more than lexical matches, but a reasonably unbiased objective view of what reliable sources do. If some of the occurrences of "motor gun boat" or "motor gunboat" are

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Enough shallow-draft Coastal Forces motor vessels were in fact lost in minefields that I think we can put the debate to rest. As small and fragile craft, when they did hit a mine it was catastrophic (29th MTB Flotilla, operating BPB 71.5-feet type, lost two boats to mines in 1944; MGB 109 - another

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Would it be more reassuring if I were dishonest and made a bald statement that it's definitely the case? Any such claim depends on the corpus you sample. In the first page of returns by GBooks, lower-case was in the majority. I've since come across other sources which use l.c. But regardless of

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I agree that we shouldn't dab through caps. Something like the suggestion of (Royal Navy) would be more appropriate. Also, sources capitalize the phrase even in the generic, so the number of sources that capitalize is not good evidence, unless they're RS's for capitalization. (A RS is only a RS

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While it's nice to try and be standard with gun placement naming conventions, there still seem to be two minor issues: One is that the amidships position would be a 'Q' position (second amidships would be 'P' if present) in standard RN nomenclature (rather than C,D,E); secondly that it's not clear

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boat working up at HMS St Christopher, but already carried an Oerlikon cannon, while RN vessels at the same time were carrying make-do weapons like Rolls 2-pdrs. Ultimately, these twin Lewis turrets were removed from the French boats' coach-houses and the two twin HMG turrets were mounted further

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I've added a further detail to the section on BPB co. 70-feet boats. These vessels were of varied provenance, with earlier boats being RN ordered and later vessels being ex-French. Notably, the original armaments of these boats was considerably modified to the 1942 configuration. In 1941, many of

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The sources for Motor Gun Boat (an obscure term) are predominantly Motor Gun Boat, with a few Motor Gunboats too because we almost never get consistency in such anyway. But this is (unlike MTB) an obscure term, so despite the incorrect and unsupported assertion below that it's 'motor gunboat', we

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RCN 29th MTB Flotilla lost two of their BPB Type 6s (G-types) to mines in 1944. These were the same hull as the Type 5 MGB (standard war production short boat). I think the matter needs no further debate, but perhaps an expansion of when the danger became worse, if the difference is much known?

3212:: This is a type of vessel not unlike destroyer or frigate. We do not cap these. It is certainly not a class since the designation was applied to several different designs. That the type/designation is "specifically" limited to the RN (or Commonwealth) is not a justification but would fall to 2125:

Sources therefore seem to vary. This is precisely the reason we have an MOS: Sources disagree with each other, and in any case they are usually not RS's for punctuation and formatting. Given that we have no RS's for capitalization, and that RS's for the topic disagree on capitalization, the

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certainly isn't a proper noun either, we don't capitalise it at Knowledge (XXG), and arguing that it forms a set within a set doesn't stand up, nor make it a proper noun. Let's be clear here, according to the rules of grammar, "motor gun boat", whether it describes the general or the specific,

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article says "A gunboat is a naval watercraft designed for the express purpose of carrying one or more guns to bombard coastal targets, as opposed to those military craft designed for naval warfare". An MGB is a motor boat armed with guns for use against similar sized vessels (rather than the

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But it does. The reason is that sources deviate from each other, and it's much easier to have a standardized MOS than to argue about every single article. If you don't like the MOS, the place to take it up is at the MOS. Trying to subvert it in individual articles is just disruptive. —

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I'd assumed it meant that any contact with a mine (which if a floating mine, was usually floating on the surface) would have a devastating effect on the hull. OTOH, they'd be largely immune to bottom-laid magnetically fuzed mines, which were being laid from the air in harbour approaches.

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Dear wikipedians, seems that this article could be further improved is more verifiable sources could be located. E.g.: the list of MGB types seems incomplete, description too brief, service too succinct. Also lots of citations missing. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Regards,

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If floating mines means drifting mines, yes, a hit would certainly destroy the boat. Drifting mines were however, to my knowledge, seldomly used and generally not very effective. If floating mines means moored mines, MGB would just run over them without striking. Regards

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It's still a generic term! Just a generic term in use by the RN. It would only not be a generic term if there was only a single model. But there wasn't. Military organisations have a well-known tendency to capitalise absolutely everything. That doesn't mean we should. --

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These are speaking specifically of the RN MGB's, and so should capitalize per the counter-argument here, but they don't. As a precaution against cherry-picking, these were all on the first page of Google Book returns. There were also two sources which did capitalize,

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before I fixed it, the article is written as if it's about the Royal Navy term instead of about the type of boat ("Motor Gun Boat (MGB) was a Royal Navy term..."). But that can be fixed. Many sources use these terms in a completely parallel way, and lowercase; e.g.

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I would address your other points, but quite honestly if you're reduced to inventing quotes for other editors I see little point in assuming GF any further. You Are Right, Knowledge (XXG) is wrong, and policy may and no doubt will be ignored (you've already stated,

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at the very least. This is just lexing - it'll pick up any old adjectival junk for any sort of gun-carrying boat with a motor in it. Of course that's going to skew massively in favour on uncapitalised forms. But all that matters here is justifying the removal of

913:(city, planet, person, corporation), or non-unique instances of a certain class." A good test (as stated in the article) is that "In English, proper names in their primary application cannot normally be modified by an article" - so a steam gun boat, but not "a HMS 3003: 1049:

These are technical terms & official designations, not mere "groups of words". AFAIK, there was never a designation "Aircraft Carrier", just a term; if "battleship" was ever one, it's become generic, so... By this reasoning, PT Boat should be pt boat...

3367:(without the space in gun boat), which is actually more common in sources, and is seldom found with caps since it's not involved in defining the acronym MGB. Looking at books, it appears to be the identical topic, except for a very few non-British uses. 2828:

You're going to "fix" Motor Gun Boat and stop it being a purely RN term? But "Motor Gun Boat" wasn't used outside the RN. There are no international "motor gun boats" to write about, they're not a grouping which was recognised by other navies.

2562:(1) No mention of the origins of the MGB (small, fast Motor Anti-submarine Boat, known as a M.A./S.B. - usually pronounced "Masby" - when submarines were discovered not to be the threat, but E-boats were, these were fitted out as gun boats. See 1851:

says "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Knowledge (XXG) to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." This is about style and MOS. This discussion is being conducted at

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Article assumes knowledge beyond what could be expected of a lay reader: please provide more information. What are turret positions A, X and Y? (article notes: "By 1945 MGB 658 carried two power-mounted QF 6-pounders in the A and Y turret

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There's no reason "flotilla" should be capitalized here, so this is another case of a book which capitalizes nearly everything, and their capitalization of MGB doesn't mean much. And we have many sources which do not capitalize at all:

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In the absence of a "substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" capitalising, it should be lower case. The evidence at WT:SHIPS does not appear to meet the requisite critera in that there appears to be mixed usage. Regards,

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use of the phrase will be capitalised. We're never going to see perfect consistency. Instead we have to make an editorial judgement: is the predominance of use, and which sources are using it, making a convincing case to follow those

2077:"The original design provided for a boat which was convertible to a motor torpedo boat, motor gun boat and high-speed anti-submarine boat. Towards the end of the construction it was decided to finish the boat as a motor gun boat ..." 1544:

whether it's an actual majority of references in the lit, it's certainly extremely common, which is all that's needed to demonstrate that capitalization is not reliably used to make a distinction (assuming that it's used at all). —

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Sources that are written 100-150 years prior to the period in question - at a time when it was commong to capitalise lots of words in a way that is not common now - don't seem that useful. As to what an MGB is - this wikipedia's

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Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Knowledge

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You have a point. I gave those examples because they were in the OED, and were therefore not subject to accusations of cherry-picking. But updating sources doesn't make much difference. For example, we get the same thing in:

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is not the same thing as a capitalized noun. There's a fair correlation, but it's only approximate. We cannot capitalize this as a proper noun, because it's not. However, there are other reasons for capitalizing things. —

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Graeme has promised to investigate Chicago or Fowlers, and I'd welcome his response (although I already know what they say ... they say "motor gun boat" is an example of a common noun, is not a proper noun and doesn't take

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was a designation. "PT" is an abbreviation, and we capitalise abbreviations, along with the rest of the world. This is irrelevant. At Knowledge (XXG) we do not capitalise a phrase merely because it forms an acronym - see

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Within the context of the RN, a motor gun-boat is just a motorized gun-boat, correct? We have de-capitalized dozens of military ranks which are specific to the military, and I'm not convinced this is any different.

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invent quotes and attribute them to me, even helpfully highlighting them in red. No-one, before you, mentioned "steam frigates". Steam frigates are not sourced as a phrase used as a proper noun, so why would they be

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That's not the point. We're not talking about adding or subtracting capitalisation. All those style guides say that expanded acronyms are not capitalised (unless they happen to be proper nouns in their own right).

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or by weapon type ('pom pom', 'Oerlikon', 'machine-gun' and so on). Boats seem to have been very intimate affairs for the crew and there does not seem to have been the same degree of formality as in RN large ships.

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or something similar. I don't think anybody is genuinely arguing that there need to be two articles called "motor gun boat" - which means we need not concern ourselves that this article would be unsuitable as

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It would be better to simply have a list of MGB types here, with links to the companies that built them, and pages of individual MGB articles where written. I've started with the Cambell & Nicholson link.

2063:"Besides the Campbeltown, the task force consisted of two escort destroyers, the Atherstone and the Tynedale, a motor gun boat, a motor torpedo boat, a number of motor launches and 621 officers and men. " 393: 167: 2487:

The article states that MGBs were particularly vulnerable to mines. I admit that I have no references for this, but given the shallow draught of the boats, I do not think this is very convincing. Regards

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seems to me are quite similar to this situation, we once capitalized, but after discussion decided not to, even in the case of US military ranks which are almost always capitalized in primary sources. —

2706:. Since the previous discussion in 2013, we've had a chance to consider cases such as this one in more depth, seeking sources, if any, that would support the proper name interpretation. As discussed at 3293:

The only reason anybody capitalises "landing ship, tank" is because it's an expansion of the acronym "LST". But that's wrong too, at Knowledge (XXG) (and most other style guides, including JSP101, per

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is a term..." generally need to be fixed, except in rare cases where the article really is about the term. This is not one of those; the article is about the boats, except for that lead sentence that

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Register, or the Coastal Forces Heritage Trust (hosted by the Navy's own museum in Portsmouth), and the various museums or heritage groups who preserve the surviving boats, and who do capitalise it.

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These are not proper-noun phrases, they're common-noun phrases. "Motor", "gun", and "boat" are all common nouns, and the phrase "motor gun boat" is also a common noun. That's not the issue here. —

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That wold be the case if they were generic "gunboats with motors" (as used by most navies). However this is an article on the RN classes specifically, with pennant number prefixes of 'MGB', not 'mg'.

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not about what this article is about, point that out. My check suggests that all or most of them are indeed interchangeable with the capitalized form. And clearly, if you understand anything about

1757:. There are indeed a large number of over-capitalised names out there, and not just ship-related ones. Most of them are backwards capitalisations from the acronym, in my ever-so-humble opinion - and 3643: 2624: 2539: 567: 2772:

boats relevant to Motor Gun Boats. Motor Torpedo Boats (when in the correctly capitalised form) are a specifically Royal Navy term for motor torpedo boats (an international and generic term).

2891:... You keep banging on about "correctly capitalised form" and "specifically Royal Navy term", but I see no consistent evidence for this in sources and no support in the rules of grammar, or 3431:

since then on studying sources applies equally well to all. If this one is approved as a move, are we going to have to repeat it for 4 more? Or will Andy concede at some point? E.g. for

2215:. The capitalization adds distinction, and I'm surprised that of the sources Osprey changed capitalization for the 2013 edition (an ebook perhaps, or just a preview copy?) is interesting. 1171:

whether it's a technical term or an official designation, is not a proper noun. Don't take my word for it - check the Knowledge (XXG) guidance, read a style guide like Chicago, or read

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is a better place to start. I've fixed the template above to what you intended, instead of "?", and linked what looks like it was intended to be a wikilink but came in via text copy.

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We don't disambiguate by capitalising. If we need to disambiguate a particular type of "motor gun boat" from a larger set of "motor gun boats", we disambiguate by naming the article

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boat". Motor Gun Boats are motor gun boats – but they are also a particular set of motor gun boats belonging to the Royal Navy and meeting the RN's particular definition of MGB. The

824: 3705: 2338:(or whatever). MTB has the same problem: a paragraph that might occur in a section on the name is used instead as the lead, as if the name rather than the boat were the topic. — 3695: 2843:

I have no problem with it being a boat class exclusive to the RN. What I want to fix is the lead sentence being about the term; it should be about the boats (see what I did at

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are, likewise, a specifically Royal Navy name (and capitalised, as the sources demonstrate). However there is no corresponding international and generic term of motor gun boat.

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Motor Gun Boat is a proper noun phrase. It refers to a particular thing within its class. However the class here is not "the set of individual boats", it is "the set of

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Steam Frigate is a proper noun phrase. It refers to a particular thing within its class. However the class here is not "the set of individual boats", it is "the set of

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skew toward a capitalised form, since it does not distinguish uses such as tables and headings, using title case, as opposed to general prose. If your assertion that

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1947—GAS POWER: A gas turbine engine is fitted to British Royal Navy motor gun boat MGB 509, and is relaunched as MGB 2009, the first gas turbine powered naval vessel.

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Perhaps this discussion should have been held in a more frequented place such as the WP:MilHist or WP:Ships talk pages? I've just thought of a few similar cases:

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No-one is disagreeing with any of your initial comment. However within the domain of motor gun boats, the RN chose to capitalise Motor Gun Boat in reference to

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This may boil down to stylisations of Great Britain vs. stylizations of the United States. Knowledge (XXG) is clear on maintaining status quo in such cases. –

3006:. Motor gunboat is much more common. If you think some of those are about a different topic, show us; look to me like they pretty much all refer to MGBs. 1150:

Stating boldly that "Motor Gun Boat is a proper noun phrase" doesn't make it one. As an analogy, and to paraphrase Andy's point, it is wrong to argue that

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The consensus is clearly against moving the capitalized titles to lowercase titles. During the discussion, there was also a alternative move suggestion for

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I'm sorry you've taken offence; I thought it was (and remains) quite clear that the words in red are a paraphrase to illustrate the point. Personally I

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for the topic it is a RS on, not for every detail it contains. A RS for Labor politics cannot be used to support a medical diagnosis, for example.)

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that RN Coastal Forces boat crews ever referred to these positions by letters. Most first-hand written accounts refer to 'forward', 'aft' positions

2814:. There's nothing in sources to indicate that this class of boats is more special, in the sense of being a proper name, than motor torpedo boats. 3320: 2573:(2) The "vulnerable to mines" nonsense is dealt with by "... the Motor Gunboat (MGB – See Appendix I) which could safely override minefields..." 1190:

Sources are irrelevant to this discussion. The phrases are widely capitalised, but then so are other words in the same sources. Rif Winfield in

3710: 197: 2710:, we pretty much find the opposite, that sources don't treat this as a proper name. So it's time to downcase it per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS. 1213: 1139:

This is not an attempt to belittle the boat type, or ill-intentioned. In fact, it is based on a clear understanding of the rules of grammar

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There is a fetish at military articles to capitalise somewhat thoughtlessly; please don't let it happen here. Thanks for hearing me out.

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etc., but they are proper noun phrases, supported as such by the many relevant sources, and so should be treated and capitalised as such.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

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I'm not sure I follow you. Kwami is saying the sources do not agree, and that we have a MOS for a reason. To clarify, I'm saying that "

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Graham, feel free to place a note at WP:MilHist & WP:Ships. I had thought of it mainly from a grammar front and placed notices at

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No, "pt boat" is not next. Knowledge (XXG) doesn't capitalise "official designators". This discussion is being conducted largely at

3414: 2942: 1594: 3103:. I am not "falling into any pitfall". Rather, the n-grams indicate that the burden is unlikely to be met. If anything, n-grams 2233:

motor, not steam. These thus became smaller (no large and heavy boiler) and with a smaller crew than previous steam Torpedo Boats.

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This is not the Royal Navy category in question, but it is capitalized regardless. Would anyone argue that we should capitalize

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Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources.

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But this is true of many words which are not capitalized – traditional African religion, for example. There's no reason that

44: 106: 2017:"A year later, he was appointed to a Motor Gun Boat Flotilla (precursor of MTBs) as a first lieutenant and boat navigator." 89: 69: 3427:– In Shem's previous RM in 2013, a bunch of these were consolidated in one discussion. As far as I can tell, our work and 1784:

as insitiuting our own, Knowledge (XXG)-only spelling/grammar standard is, despite the repeated denials of such, very much

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boat". Steam Frigates are steam frigates – but they are also a particular set of steam frigates belonging to the Royal Navy

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for US topics) support removing it when it's part of the original source and its treatment of something as a noun phrase.

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doesn't exist. How long is going to take to register (pun intended) with you that WP is not written in bureaucratese?

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The choosen examples are bad. Both are not typical. Most of the MGB were much smaller (about 70 foot) and less armed.--

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Shem, I'm flattered that you liked my RM proposal so much that you copied it literally, but probably the template at

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like a frigate, which have been around for centuries as a very broad term. It's a much more specialist type, like a

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These aren't just descriptive, they're official designators, & so correctly capitalized. What next, "pt boat"?

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FFS! Yet again, Googled ngrams are nowhere near a RS, because they have no context, they're just lexical matches.

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n-grams draws on usage from a corpus of published sources. If your assertions are correct, then there would be

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Can you provide an example of a source that uses "motor gun boat" to mean anything other than "Motor Gun Boat"?

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Type 5 - mined off South Foreland 7th Feb 1943) so I think that a 'vulnerability' to mines is a fair comment.

2418: 1136:, since I proposed the move. I'm clearly disappointed to be in a minority of one (so far?), but hear me out: 606: 353: 50: 481: 3316: 3252: 3227: 3136: 3076:

Secondly, the ngrams are of little use because they don't select for any context. We need to look at ngrams

3054: 2910: 2429: 2220: 2000: 1740: 1732: 1629: 1421:, and I'm grateful when others do the same. My point might have been clumsily made, but it's not malicious. 892: 845: 551: 192:. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a 3392: 1147:". There are, as we all understand, very good reasons why these capital letters are used in these examples. 473: 3577: 3498: 3328: 3284: 3090: 3025: 2993: 2918: 2878: 2834: 2781: 2528: 2509: 2493: 2436: 2361: 2310: 2238: 1408: 1292:♠it is, I suggest, different between saying "motor gun boat" as a generic thing & "Motor Gun Boat" as 1075: 1037: 1004: 731: 3563:

on a generic term, it's on the RN use of it. Such a generic term exists, but this isn't an article on it.

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The Battle of the Narrow Seas: The History of Light Coastal Forces in the Channel and North Sea 1939-1945

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This is not a US/UK difference, and in any case it seems that most British sources do not capitalize. —

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was in the group of motor gun boats" would be correct usage, and that therefore the article should at "

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with

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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Design and Construction of British Warships, 1939–1945: Submarines, escorts, and coastal forces

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What do the sources say? The RN clearly favoured these proper noun phrases. What was US practice?

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Motor Gun Boats aren't the same as Motor Torpedo Boats. Nor are the sources cited in relation to

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are in lower case, and not at "Steam Frigate" and "PT Boat"). What do you think I am proposing?

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these had twin LMG turrets carried amidships - exactly as seen in the article's photo of the

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capitalisation, but none of the relevant style guides (which BTW doesn't include JSP101, nor

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The Motor Gun Boat was a small military vessel of the Royal Navy used in the Second World War

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Motor Torpedo Boat implies specifically a "motor", which in contemporary terminology meant a

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Which is a badly mistaken decision, then, as it means a rejection of sources in favor of our

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it'll pick up any old adjectival junk for any sort of gun-carrying boat with a motor in it

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by Peter Dickens (one of the coastal forces "aces" of WW2) and the fact that it has had a

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Motor Gun Boat was a Royal Navy term for a small military vessel of the Second World War

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is also a motor gun boat, but it is not one of this specific class of Motor Gun Boats.

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That may be. However, it would also appear to be well-sourced without the capitals.

1312:

The set and subset you describe are indeed different, but neither are proper nouns.

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consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources

3043:

However there is no corresponding international and generic term of motor gun boat.

2445:"Yet again"? You mean a second time, after more than 6 years since the first one? 2204: 902: 743: 727: 671: 127: 17: 3473:

I favour "motor gunboat" over "motor gun boat", but I could live with the latter.

3115:- one of these two statements must logically be false. There is no expectation of 1577:. The lit is indiscriminate in capitalization, and this is not a proper name. — 1526:

Well, I could be wrong, but "seems" is not a very reassuring word in this case. –

2298: 1964: 1172: 455: 3127:. When sources are sampled, what we are seeing is mixed usage - which is not a 385: 3474: 3194: 2417:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

544: 3435:, lowercase is common enough in sources that we shouldn't be capping it (see 2810:, and lots more, like some that we discussed including Royal Navy sources at 2745:

I did use the template, but it looks like I messed it up! Thanks for fixing!

2334:, but rather about the boats that go by that name. Better to have s.t. like 1403:) as you simply use the "shouting loudest and most widely" approach instead. 2677: 2469: 2126:

question is whether the MOS would prescribe capitalization in this case. —

2022:

Holding Juno: Canada's Heroic Defence of the D-Day Beaches: June 7–12, 1944

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says, "A proper noun is a noun that in its primary application refers to a

3109:

there is no corresponding international and generic term of motor gun boat

1959:"Motor Gun Boat" is clearly not a proper noun. It's a class of objects: 105:. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the 3396: 735: 2212: 2200: 2174: 2050:"Still on his motor gun boat in the Old Entrance was Commander Ryder." 1987: 1265: 3651: 3596: 3581: 3550: 3524: 3502: 3484: 3468: 3419: 3376: 3347: 3332: 3306: 3288: 3256: 3231: 3204: 3159: 3140: 3094: 3058: 3029: 3015: 2997: 2947: 2922: 2904: 2882: 2864: 2838: 2823: 2785: 2754: 2740: 2719: 2685: 2632: 2617: 2602: 2547: 2532: 2513: 2497: 2477: 2454: 2440: 2385: 2365: 2347: 2314: 2280: 2242: 2224: 2186: 2156: 2135: 2004: 1977: 1865: 1834: 1799: 1770: 1744: 1710: 1686: 1651: 1621: 1586: 1553: 1538: 1521: 1503: 1479: 1459: 1430: 1412: 1373: 1359: 1336: 1321: 1307: 1285: 1235: 1131: 1093: 1079: 1061: 1041: 1008: 926: 896: 877: 849: 790: 763: 644: 575: 555: 538: 524: 507: 485: 463: 3507:

Many books still prefer no space and no caps for those UK MGBs; e.g.

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have its own spelling-and-grammar standards that deviate from sources

180: 144: 1143:. So, it is fatuous to suggest I would propose "pt boat" or "hms 901:

Plainly "steam gun boat" is not a proper noun or proper name. As

714:) and we don't capitalise the article names of types of ship (eg 2141:

Are you suggesting "a group of motor gun boats" is the same as "

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it's also the official designation, so... In the same way, MGB.

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Note that the move requests have been re-opened (yet again) at

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have A in the bow, X sternward of midships, & Y dead aft.

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All subject to further research/finding of additional sources.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this

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You are falling into the same two pitfalls as Dicklyon does:

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are not synonyms and Motor Torpedo Boat is not a synonym of

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There are no international "motor gun boats" to write about

622:. but it did not get enough attention to form a consensus. 2812:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Ships#Royal Navy sources

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Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Ships#Motor Torpedo Boat

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This editor also voted above on the orignal proposal for

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This editor also voted above on the orignal proposal for

1028:). These are not the simple combinations of words as for 734:, and so on). The general guidance at Knowledge (XXG) is 710:– We don't capitalise acronyms when written in full (see 595:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

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is true, then there is no logical basis to assert that

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This article is not about motor gun boats, it is about

2297:). This is notable and well-sourced. Just as we do for 676: 656: 428: 2430:

Talk:Motor Torpedo Boat#Requested move 12 January 2020

1569:, pending an actual demonstration by opponents that a 423:

On October 2013, it was proposed that this article be

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

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The burden to capitalise rests in showing that it is

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in which the lower case form would be used. Regards,

2590:(5) The ultimate merging of the role of MGB and MTB. 2407:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

2093:—Matt Croucher & The Royal British Legion (2011) 234:

This article has been checked against the following

2199:I think part of the problem is that "gun boat" and 884:

Knowledge (XXG):Naming conventions (capitalization)

840:the capitalization is as used in reliable sources. 827:, please explain your reasons, taking into account 736:"Knowledge (XXG) avoids unnecessary capitalization" 609:. No further edits should be made to this section. 319: 233: 3625:. No further edits should be made to this section. 2608:That all sounds great! Thanks for working on it. 2421:. No further edits should be made to this section. 1200:Class - in common with many other great sources), 1894:The Spaniards having sent out a great number of 1212:. Knowledge (XXG) has it's own style guide. See 864:. Knowledge (XXG) has it's own style guide. See 3541:. Generic term. No need for capitalisation. -- 3403:, and innumerable previous RMs just like this. 2558:Problems with this article (just a few of them) 2114:(note that he doesn't capitalize in 2013) and 982:People's Revolutionary Vessel Shootski Bangski 775:proposals together to centralize discussion.) 529:Is this explained in any wikiarticle? Thanks, 3706:European military history task force articles 2293:of such boats (and note that they didn't for 8: 3696:British military history task force articles 2095:The Royal British Legion: 90 Years of Heroes 206:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history 1141:and how they are applied at Knowledge (XXG) 493:More information required: turret positions 3701:C-Class European military history articles 3632:Armaments and continuous early improvement 2847:, for example). Articles that lead with " 2646:The following is a closed discussion of a 2120:E-Boat Vs MTB: The English Channel 1941–45 2070:magazine, vol 14, no 21, p 79, 1943 May 24 829:Knowledge (XXG)'s policy on article titles 825:polling is not a substitute for discussion 316: 230: 139: 58: 3691:C-Class British military history articles 2207:though the later may have a motor; and a 1606:? I only saw two real possibilities, and 1204:. As I've already noted, sources are for 3247:does appear to be the more common name. 2869:That's copy-editing and that's fine. 'A 2055:St Nazaire 1942: The Great Commando Raid 1214:Knowledge (XXG):Specialist style fallacy 931:In your context, wouldn't you mean, hms 866:Knowledge (XXG):Specialist style fallacy 186:This article is within the scope of the 3644:2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:B533:2903:D6B0:CF8C 3321:Government Printing Office Style Manual 2625:2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:E042:D9E6:ABC2:CA62 2540:2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:E042:D9E6:ABC2:CA62 2305:, this is reason enough to capitalise. 1929:This is the reception destined for the 1348:- which is very much against policy. - 568:2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:B533:2903:D6B0:CF8C 141: 60: 30: 3568:A similar thing has just been done at 3217: 3128: 3124: 3120: 3116: 3112: 3108: 3100: 3042: 3038: 1202:but we do not do so at Knowledge (XXG) 995:AppleMac is specific within the class 738:. I have also proposed this change at 196:. To use this banner, please see the 2356:in that narrow and specific RN term. 2330:: The article is not about the term 1264:. Furthermore, I would note that the 209:Template:WikiProject Military history 7: 3686:Maritime warfare task force articles 2665:The result of the move request was: 2322:On another topic, the opening line, 1961:The Motor Gun Boat, a Motor Gun Boat 991:. There are many AppleMacs, but the 614:The result of the move request was: 378:European military history task force 87:This article is within the scope of 3216:. WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS applies: 2988:just have very, very few of those. 1910:— Nelson (1797), in Nicolas (1845) 1759:at Knowledge (XXG) we don't do that 1444:; Knowledge (XXG) does not need to 362:British military history task force 49:It is of interest to the following 3279:(which is also capitalised, BYW). 3085:capitalisation, that's the dogma. 2109:British Motor Torpedo Boat 1939–45 2040:—Glossary of Angus Konstam (2013) 25: 3681:C-Class maritime warfare articles 3676:C-Class military history articles 1595:Talk:Harbour Defence Motor Launch 1255:The US Navy clearly thought that 1196:capitalised the word "class" (eg 115:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Ships 3716:World War II task force articles 416: 293: 282: 271: 260: 249: 179: 143: 126: 80: 62: 31: 2267:(lower case) can't differ from 1847:This is nothing to do with OR. 1388:Dear Shem. I will thank you to 887:going to the library tomorrow. 2673:closed by non-admin page mover 2639:Requested move 23 January 2020 2042:British Motor Gun Boat 1939–45 1364:Your opinion is not policy. — 1024:(although I'm unfamiliar with 588:Requested move 20 October 2013 543:Naming convention given here: 1: 3711:C-Class World War II articles 3652:05:06, 20 November 2022 (UTC) 3404: 3068:There is no expectation that 2932: 2633:22:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC) 2548:22:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC) 2533:18:53, 30 November 2017 (UTC) 2514:17:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC) 2498:14:42, 26 November 2017 (UTC) 2478:22:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC) 1731:etc. And other terms such as 817:, then sign your comment with 576:06:49, 19 November 2022 (UTC) 556:11:25, 8 September 2016 (UTC) 539:11:03, 8 September 2016 (UTC) 3597:14:45, 29 January 2020 (UTC) 3582:14:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC) 3551:14:22, 29 January 2020 (UTC) 3525:04:52, 28 January 2020 (UTC) 3503:12:54, 27 January 2020 (UTC) 3485:09:38, 27 January 2020 (UTC) 3469:10:00, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3433:Harbour Defence Motor Launch 3420:04:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3377:03:55, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3348:10:10, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3333:19:12, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 3307:18:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 3289:17:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 3257:05:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3232:10:15, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 3205:03:13, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 3160:07:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC) 3141:02:17, 26 January 2020 (UTC) 3095:01:11, 26 January 2020 (UTC) 3059:00:19, 26 January 2020 (UTC) 3030:16:44, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 3016:16:21, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 2998:11:08, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 2948:04:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC) 2923:19:29, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2905:18:31, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2883:17:49, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2865:17:13, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2839:13:30, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2824:02:47, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2786:23:42, 23 January 2020 (UTC) 2755:18:43, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2741:02:59, 24 January 2020 (UTC) 2720:18:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC) 2698:– As per the recent move of 2686:19:11, 31 January 2020 (UTC) 2618:03:33, 21 January 2020 (UTC) 2603:20:27, 20 January 2020 (UTC) 2455:04:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC) 2441:13:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC) 2386:18:29, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 2366:10:16, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 2348:00:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 2315:23:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC) 2281:20:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC) 2243:15:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC) 2225:15:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC) 2187:13:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC) 2157:22:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 2136:19:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 2005:11:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1978:21:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1866:19:46, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1835:07:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC) 1800:23:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1771:21:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1745:21:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1711:20:36, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1687:07:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC) 1652:20:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1622:18:24, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 1587:19:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 1554:19:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 1539:23:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1522:20:56, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1504:20:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1480:01:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1460:23:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1431:19:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1413:09:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1374:01:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC) 1360:23:37, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1337:21:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1322:20:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1308:20:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1286:20:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1243:♠"it is wrong to argue that 1236:19:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC) 1193:The Sail and Steam Navy List 1132:08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC) 1094:19:06, 27 October 2013 (UTC) 1080:21:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 1062:21:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 1042:19:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 1009:21:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 927:21:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 897:18:46, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 878:18:34, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 850:18:14, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 791:07:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC) 764:16:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC) 667:Harbour defence motor launch 663:Harbour Defence Motor Launch 645:06:31, 4 November 2013 (UTC) 620:Harbour Defence Motor Launch 525:18:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC) 508:17:37, 24 October 2010 (UTC) 486:12:37, 7 February 2010 (UTC) 189:Military history WikiProject 3671:All WikiProject Ships pages 3363:, maybe we should consider 2483:Vulnerability towards mines 2037:"MTB — motor torpedo boat" 1180:Motor gun boat (Royal Navy) 464:11:01, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 346:Maritime warfare task force 93:, a project to improve all 3732: 254:Referencing and citation: 118:Template:WikiProject Ships 3395:and (on the caps matter) 2909:Then take it up with the 2873:was...' will do the job. 2118:Gordon Williamson (2011) 1924:because of this? Also, 1729:Landing Craft Air Cushion 1721:Aircraft Carrier (Medium) 1216:for a fuller explanation. 999:and so is a proper noun. 545:Gun_turret#Modern_turrets 392: 376: 360: 344: 315: 212:military history articles 174: 75: 57: 3615:Please do not modify it. 3570:Mobile Launcher Platform 3429:project-level discussion 3121:substantial majority ... 2653:Please do not modify it. 2414:Please do not modify it. 2211:is far from the same as 1880:Any additional comments: 1401:"Sources are irrelevant" 602:Please do not modify it. 2927:Yet more pretense that 2911:National Historic Ships 2090:"motor gun boat (MGB)" 1733:Fleet Landing Exercises 1630:Talk:Motor Torpedo Boat 394:World War II task force 320:Associated task forces: 265:Coverage and accuracy: 101:, or contribute to the 3666:C-Class Ships articles 2169:" (in the same way as 957:are common nouns; but 732:torpedo boat destroyer 450:not exemplary examples 389: 373: 357: 341: 298:Supporting materials: 226: 39:This article is rated 2566:by Peter Scott; also 2107:Angus Konstam (2003) 2034:"MGB — motor gun boat 2020:—Mark Zuehlke (2006) 1602:Why not just move to 1573:is not the same as a 939:Cassell English Usage 882:Well, if I'm reading 388: 372: 356: 340: 225: 43:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 3511:; and journals like 3129:substantial majority 2887:Or better still, 'A 2570:by William Donald.) 2326:, is a violation of 2291:a specific sub-class 2269:gunboat with a motor 2080:—David Brown (1996) 616:All pages not moved. 3311:JSP101 says not to 3125:predominance of use 3117:perfect consistency 2568:Stand by for Action 1902:un-boats and armed 1854:Talk:Motor Gun Boat 1699:talk:Motor Gun Boat 287:Grammar and style: 240:for B-class status: 18:Talk:Motor Gun Boat 3277:Landing Ship, Tank 3123:or, as you say, a 2845:Motor torpedo boat 2795:Motor torpedo boat 2704:motor torpedo boat 2700:Motor Torpedo Boat 2163:Motor Gun Boat 322 2143:Motor Gun Boat 322 1725:VSTOL Support Ship 911:class of entities 752:Coastal Motor Boat 740:Motor Torpedo Boat 705:Coastal motor boat 701:Coastal Motor Boat 687:Motor torpedo boat 683:Motor Torpedo Boat 390: 374: 358: 342: 227: 194:list of open tasks 103:project discussion 45:content assessment 3559:But this article 3387:as first choice, 2676: 2463:Article expansion 2213:Gunboat#Steam_era 2150: 2053:—Ken Ford (2011) 1838: 1806: 1803: 1690: 1658: 1655: 1645: 1628:Response(s) from 1593:Response(s) from 1535: 1500: 1419:assume good faith 1301: 1135: 1055: 973:are proper nouns. 794: 629: 626:non-admin closure 519: 476:comment added by 447: 446: 411: 410: 407: 406: 403: 402: 399: 398: 311: 310: 256:criterion not met 198:full instructions 138: 137: 134: 133: 107:full instructions 90:WikiProject Ships 16:(Redirected from 3723: 3482: 3418: 3202: 2946: 2670: 2655: 2595:ThoughtIdRetired 2416: 2152: 2148: 1945:—Larwood (1804) 1827: 1808: 1805: 1802: 1796: 1717:Sea Control Ship 1679: 1660: 1657: 1654: 1647: 1643: 1614: 1533: 1529: 1498: 1494: 1456: 1356: 1303: 1299: 1220:capitalisation). 1165: 1124: 1110: 1057: 1053: 1030:aircraft carrier 856:Sources are for 821: 815: 809: 783: 771:(Merged all six 769: 720:aircraft carrier 716:destroyer escort 679: 659: 637: 623: 604: 520: 517: 488: 435:. The result of 420: 419: 413: 327: 317: 301: 297: 296: 290: 286: 285: 279: 275: 274: 268: 264: 263: 257: 253: 252: 231: 214: 213: 210: 207: 204: 203:Military history 183: 176: 175: 170: 151:Military history 147: 140: 130: 123: 122: 119: 116: 113: 99:join the project 84: 77: 76: 66: 59: 42: 36: 35: 27: 21: 3731: 3730: 3726: 3725: 3724: 3722: 3721: 3720: 3656: 3655: 3634: 3629: 3480: 3391:as second, per 3200: 2929:WP:OFFICIALNAME 2774:Motor Gun Boats 2651: 2641: 2579:citation needed 2560: 2485: 2465: 2425: 2412: 2354:Motor Gun Boats 2147: 1991:torpedoes of a 1876: 1821: 1798: 1794: 1673: 1642: 1612: 1532:Paine Ellsworth 1531: 1497:Paine Ellsworth 1496: 1458: 1454: 1358: 1354: 1298: 1257:"Steam Frigate" 1152: 1118: 1052: 819: 813: 807: 801: 777: 675: 655: 631: 600: 590: 516: 495: 471: 452: 417: 325: 299: 294: 288: 283: 277: 272: 266: 261: 255: 250: 211: 208: 205: 202: 201: 153: 120: 117: 114: 111: 110: 40: 23: 22: 15: 12: 11: 5: 3729: 3727: 3719: 3718: 3713: 3708: 3703: 3698: 3693: 3688: 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2409:requested move 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2393: 2392: 2391: 2390: 2389: 2388: 2371: 2332:Motor Gun Boat 2320: 2265:motor gun boat 2252: 2251: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2247: 2246: 2245: 2209:Steam Gun Boat 2192: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2167:Motor gun boat 2123: 2122: 2112: 2111: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2074: 2073: 2072: 2071: 2060: 2059: 2058: 2057: 2047: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2035: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2007: 1953: 1952: 1951: 1950: 1918: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1883: 1882: 1875: 1872: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1842: 1841: 1840: 1839: 1817:Motor Gun Boat 1792: 1790:The Bushranger 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1694: 1693: 1692: 1691: 1669:Motor Gun Boat 1634: 1633: 1625: 1624: 1599: 1598: 1590: 1589: 1575:Motor Gun Boat 1571:motor gun boat 1563: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1557: 1556: 1507: 1506: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1482: 1464: 1463: 1452: 1450:The Bushranger 1438: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1434: 1433: 1395: 1394: 1385: 1384: 1383: 1382: 1381: 1380: 1379: 1378: 1377: 1376: 1352: 1350:The Bushranger 1290: 1289: 1288: 1268:article is PT 1224: 1223: 1222: 1221: 1217: 1188: 1185:motor gun boat 1176: 1148: 1101: 1100: 1099: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1065: 1064: 1044: 1026:Steam Gun Boat 1018: 1017: 1016: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1012: 1011: 985: 974: 936: 853: 852: 834: 833: 808:*'''Support''' 800: 797: 796: 795: 748:Steam Gun Boat 708: 707: 698: 696:Steam gun boat 692:Steam Gun Boat 689: 680: 669: 660: 657:Motor gun boat 652:Motor Gun Boat 648: 612: 611: 597:requested move 591: 589: 586: 585: 584: 583: 582: 581: 580: 579: 578: 494: 491: 490: 489: 451: 448: 445: 444: 437:the discussion 433:Motor gun boat 429:Motor Gun Boat 421: 409: 408: 405: 404: 401: 400: 397: 396: 391: 381: 380: 375: 365: 364: 359: 349: 348: 343: 333: 332: 330: 328: 322: 321: 313: 312: 309: 308: 306: 304: 303: 302: 291: 280: 269: 258: 244: 243: 241: 228: 218: 217: 215: 184: 172: 171: 148: 136: 135: 132: 131: 124: 121:Ships articles 85: 73: 72: 67: 55: 54: 48: 37: 24: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3728: 3717: 3714: 3712: 3709: 3707: 3704: 3702: 3699: 3697: 3694: 3692: 3689: 3687: 3684: 3682: 3679: 3677: 3674: 3672: 3669: 3667: 3664: 3663: 3661: 3654: 3653: 3649: 3645: 3640: 3631: 3626: 3624: 3620: 3616: 3612: 3607: 3606: 3598: 3594: 3590: 3585: 3584: 3583: 3579: 3575: 3571: 3567: 3566: 3562: 3558: 3557: 3556: 3555: 3552: 3548: 3544: 3540: 3539:Motor gunboat 3537: 3534: 3533: 3526: 3522: 3518: 3514: 3510: 3506: 3505: 3504: 3500: 3496: 3492: 3491: 3490: 3489: 3486: 3483: 3478: 3477: 3472: 3470: 3466: 3462: 3458: 3457: 3456:motor gunboat 3452: 3449: 3446: 3443: 3440: 3437: 3434: 3430: 3426: 3423: 3421: 3416: 3413: 3410: 3409: 3402: 3398: 3394: 3393:WP:COMMONNAME 3390: 3386: 3385: 3384:motor gunboat 3380: 3378: 3374: 3370: 3366: 3365:Motor gunboat 3362: 3359: 3349: 3345: 3341: 3336: 3335: 3334: 3330: 3326: 3322: 3318: 3314: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3304: 3300: 3296: 3292: 3291: 3290: 3286: 3282: 3278: 3274: 3270: 3269: 3268: 3267: 3258: 3254: 3250: 3249:Cinderella157 3246: 3245:motor gunboat 3243: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3238: 3237: 3236: 3233: 3229: 3225: 3224:Cinderella157 3220: 3215: 3211: 3208: 3206: 3203: 3198: 3197: 3192: 3189: 3188: 3161: 3157: 3153: 3149: 3144: 3142: 3138: 3134: 3133:Cinderella157 3130: 3126: 3122: 3118: 3114: 3110: 3106: 3102: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3092: 3088: 3084: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3067: 3066: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3056: 3052: 3051:Cinderella157 3048: 3044: 3040: 3036: 3033: 3032: 3031: 3027: 3023: 3019: 3018: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3005: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2995: 2991: 2986: 2985: 2982: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2949: 2944: 2941: 2938: 2937: 2930: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2920: 2916: 2912: 2908: 2907: 2906: 2902: 2898: 2894: 2890: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2880: 2876: 2872: 2868: 2867: 2866: 2862: 2858: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2842: 2841: 2840: 2836: 2832: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2821: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2805: 2804:this magazine 2801: 2796: 2792: 2789: 2787: 2783: 2779: 2775: 2771: 2767: 2764: 2763: 2756: 2752: 2748: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2722: 2721: 2717: 2713: 2709: 2705: 2701: 2697: 2693: 2688: 2687: 2683: 2679: 2674: 2668: 2661: 2659: 2654: 2649: 2644: 2643: 2638: 2634: 2630: 2626: 2621: 2619: 2615: 2611: 2607: 2606: 2605: 2604: 2600: 2596: 2591: 2588: 2585: 2582: 2580: 2576: 2571: 2569: 2565: 2557: 2549: 2545: 2541: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2530: 2526: 2521: 2520: 2519: 2518: 2515: 2511: 2507: 2502: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2495: 2491: 2482: 2480: 2479: 2475: 2471: 2462: 2456: 2452: 2448: 2444: 2443: 2442: 2438: 2434: 2431: 2427: 2426: 2422: 2420: 2415: 2410: 2405: 2387: 2383: 2379: 2375: 2372: 2369: 2368: 2367: 2363: 2359: 2355: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2345: 2341: 2337: 2333: 2329: 2325: 2321: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2312: 2308: 2304: 2303:Dodge Charger 2300: 2296: 2295:steam frigate 2292: 2288: 2284: 2283: 2282: 2278: 2274: 2270: 2266: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2257: 2256: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2244: 2240: 2236: 2232: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2222: 2218: 2217:GraemeLeggett 2214: 2210: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2188: 2184: 2180: 2176: 2172: 2171:Steam frigate 2168: 2164: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2155: 2153: 2145:"? Nonsense. 2144: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2133: 2129: 2121: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2110: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2096: 2092: 2091: 2089: 2088: 2083: 2079: 2078: 2076: 2075: 2069: 2065: 2064: 2062: 2061: 2056: 2052: 2051: 2049: 2048: 2043: 2039: 2038: 2036: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2023: 2019: 2018: 2016: 2015: 2014: 2006: 2002: 1998: 1997:GraemeLeggett 1994: 1989: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1975: 1971: 1966: 1962: 1957: 1948: 1947:No Gun Boats, 1944: 1943: 1942: 1940: 1936: 1932: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1923: 1922:launch (boat) 1913: 1909: 1908: 1907: 1905: 1901: 1897: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1887: 1881: 1878: 1877: 1873: 1867: 1863: 1859: 1855: 1850: 1846: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1837: 1836: 1832: 1828: 1826: 1825: 1818: 1813: 1812: 1807: 1804: 1801: 1797: 1795:One ping only 1791: 1787: 1783: 1780: 1779: 1772: 1768: 1764: 1760: 1756: 1752: 1748: 1747: 1746: 1742: 1738: 1737:GraemeLeggett 1734: 1730: 1726: 1722: 1718: 1714: 1713: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1700: 1696: 1695: 1689: 1688: 1684: 1680: 1678: 1677: 1670: 1665: 1664: 1659: 1656: 1653: 1650: 1648: 1639: 1636: 1635: 1631: 1627: 1626: 1623: 1620: 1619: 1615: 1609: 1605: 1601: 1600: 1596: 1592: 1591: 1588: 1584: 1580: 1576: 1572: 1568: 1565: 1564: 1555: 1551: 1547: 1542: 1541: 1540: 1537: 1536: 1534: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1519: 1515: 1511: 1510: 1509: 1508: 1505: 1502: 1501: 1499: 1490: 1487: 1486: 1481: 1477: 1473: 1468: 1467: 1466: 1465: 1461: 1457: 1455:One ping only 1451: 1447: 1443: 1440: 1439: 1432: 1428: 1424: 1420: 1416: 1415: 1414: 1410: 1406: 1402: 1397: 1396: 1391: 1387: 1386: 1375: 1371: 1367: 1363: 1362: 1361: 1357: 1355:One ping only 1351: 1347: 1346:interpreation 1344: 1340: 1339: 1338: 1334: 1330: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1319: 1315: 1311: 1310: 1309: 1306: 1304: 1295: 1291: 1287: 1283: 1279: 1275: 1271: 1267: 1263: 1258: 1254: 1253: 1251: 1246: 1242: 1241: 1240: 1239: 1238: 1237: 1233: 1229: 1218: 1215: 1211: 1207: 1203: 1199: 1195: 1194: 1189: 1186: 1181: 1177: 1174: 1169: 1168:Steam frigate 1166: 1163: 1159: 1155: 1149: 1146: 1142: 1138: 1137: 1134: 1133: 1129: 1125: 1123: 1122: 1115: 1109: 1108: 1103: 1102: 1095: 1091: 1087: 1083: 1082: 1081: 1077: 1073: 1069: 1068: 1067: 1066: 1063: 1060: 1058: 1048: 1045: 1043: 1039: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1020: 1019: 1010: 1006: 1002: 998: 994: 990: 986: 983: 979: 975: 972: 968: 964: 960: 956: 952: 948: 944: 940: 937: 934: 930: 929: 928: 924: 920: 916: 912: 908: 907:unique entity 904: 900: 899: 898: 894: 890: 889:GraemeLeggett 885: 881: 880: 879: 875: 871: 867: 863: 859: 855: 854: 851: 847: 843: 842:GraemeLeggett 839: 836: 835: 832: 830: 826: 818: 814:*'''Oppose''' 812: 806: 803: 802: 798: 793: 792: 788: 784: 782: 781: 774: 768: 767: 766: 765: 761: 757: 753: 749: 745: 741: 737: 733: 729: 725: 724:river gunboat 721: 717: 713: 706: 702: 699: 697: 693: 690: 688: 684: 681: 678: 673: 670: 668: 664: 661: 658: 653: 650: 649: 647: 646: 642: 638: 636: 635: 627: 621: 617: 610: 608: 603: 598: 593: 592: 587: 577: 573: 569: 564: 559: 558: 557: 553: 549: 548:GraemeLeggett 546: 542: 541: 540: 536: 532: 528: 527: 526: 523: 521: 512: 511: 510: 509: 505: 501: 498:positions")-- 492: 487: 483: 479: 478:188.122.34.10 475: 468: 467: 466: 465: 461: 457: 449: 442: 438: 434: 430: 426: 422: 415: 414: 395: 387: 383: 382: 379: 371: 367: 366: 363: 355: 351: 350: 347: 339: 335: 334: 331: 329: 324: 323: 318: 314: 307: 305: 300:criterion met 292: 289:criterion met 281: 278:criterion met 270: 267:criterion met 259: 248: 247: 246: 245: 242: 239: 238: 232: 229: 224: 220: 219: 216: 199: 195: 191: 190: 185: 182: 178: 177: 173: 169: 165: 161: 157: 152: 149: 146: 142: 129: 125: 108: 104: 100: 96: 92: 91: 86: 83: 79: 78: 74: 71: 68: 65: 61: 56: 52: 46: 38: 34: 29: 28: 19: 3638: 3635: 3614: 3608: 3574:Andy Dingley 3560: 3535: 3495:Andy Dingley 3475: 3453: 3424: 3407: 3381: 3360: 3325:Andy Dingley 3312: 3281:Andy Dingley 3272: 3244: 3209: 3195: 3190: 3104: 3087:Andy Dingley 3082: 3077: 3069: 3046: 3035:Andy Dingley 3022:Andy Dingley 3002:Wrong. See 2990:Andy Dingley 2980: 2935: 2915:Andy Dingley 2888: 2875:Andy Dingley 2870: 2853:came in here 2848: 2831:Andy Dingley 2790: 2778:Andy Dingley 2769: 2765: 2690: 2666: 2664: 2652: 2645: 2592: 2589: 2586: 2583: 2578: 2575:Night Action 2574: 2572: 2567: 2563: 2561: 2525:Marinebanker 2506:Andy Dingley 2490:Marinebanker 2486: 2466: 2433:Andy Dingley 2413: 2406: 2373: 2358:Andy Dingley 2335: 2331: 2323: 2307:Andy Dingley 2290: 2286: 2268: 2264: 2235:Andy Dingley 2230: 2205:torpedo boat 2162: 2142: 2124: 2119: 2113: 2108: 2101: 2094: 2081: 2067: 2054: 2041: 2028: 2021: 2011: 1960: 1958: 1954: 1946: 1938: 1934: 1930: 1928: 1919: 1911: 1903: 1899: 1895: 1893: 1888: 1884: 1879: 1823: 1822: 1814: 1810: 1809: 1781: 1751:Talk:MOSCAPS 1675: 1674: 1666: 1662: 1661: 1637: 1617: 1574: 1570: 1566: 1528: 1527: 1493: 1492: 1488: 1441: 1405:Andy Dingley 1400: 1393:capitalised? 1389: 1293: 1273: 1272:oat, not PT 1269: 1249: 1244: 1225: 1209: 1205: 1201: 1197: 1191: 1161: 1157: 1153: 1151: 1144: 1140: 1120: 1119: 1111: 1106: 1105: 1072:Andy Dingley 1046: 1034:Andy Dingley 1021: 1001:Andy Dingley 996: 992: 988: 981: 977: 970: 966: 962: 958: 954: 950: 946: 942: 938: 932: 914: 910: 906: 903:proper nouns 861: 857: 837: 822: 816: 810: 804: 779: 778: 770: 744:Motor Launch 728:torpedo boat 709: 677:Motor launch 672:Motor Launch 633: 632: 615: 613: 601: 594: 562: 496: 453: 440: 235: 187: 168:World War II 88: 51:WikiProjects 3623:move review 3408:SMcCandlish 3131:. Regards, 3037:, you say: 2936:SMcCandlish 2658:move review 2419:move review 2299:Snowy Egret 1965:proper noun 1262:WP:CAPSACRS 1173:proper noun 712:WP:CAPSACRS 607:move review 472:—Preceding 276:Structure: 3660:Categories 3589:Necrothesp 3543:Necrothesp 3295:WP:EXPABBR 3047:no context 3004:book stats 2667:Page moved 2581:for ages. 1889:Consider, 1874:Discussion 1638:Oppose all 1610:exists... 1608:WP:TWODABS 1294:particular 1022:oppose all 518:TREKphiler 3619:talk page 3401:WP:NCCAPS 3271:But it's 3148:WP:NCCAPS 2808:this book 2800:this book 2328:WP:REFERS 1824:Steel1943 1676:Steel1943 1121:Steel1943 997:computers 967:Excalibur 780:Steel1943 634:Steel1943 441:not moved 3621:or in a 3517:Dicklyon 3513:this one 3509:this one 3454:Support 3397:MOS:CAPS 3382:Support 3369:Dicklyon 3361:Actually 3152:Dicklyon 3073:sources? 3008:Dicklyon 2857:Dicklyon 2816:Dicklyon 2733:Dicklyon 2610:Dicklyon 2447:Dicklyon 2289:use for 1906:aunches. 1755:Talk:MOS 1296:thing. 1158:types of 1104:Clearly 989:AppleMac 978:types of 971:AppleMac 955:computer 823:. Since 474:unsigned 237:criteria 164:European 156:Maritime 3536:Support 3425:Comment 3319:or the 3317:Chicago 3210:Support 3191:Support 3119:just a 2793:– Like 2791:Support 2770:torpedo 2201:gunboat 2175:PT boat 1988:gunboat 1567:Support 1489:Oppose. 1266:PT boat 1114:WP:VOTE 1107:Support 160:British 41:C-class 3481:(talk) 3219:(XXG). 3201:(talk) 2893:WP:MOS 2766:Oppose 2702:-: --> 2231:petrol 2151:philer 1941:rmada. 1914:II.404 1782:Oppose 1646:philer 1442:Oppose 1302:philer 1208:, not 1198:Hermes 1056:philer 1047:Oppose 963:Dobbin 860:, not 838:Oppose 799:Survey 500:mgaved 456:WerWil 47:scale. 3561:isn't 3070:every 2729:WP:RM 2378:kwami 2340:kwami 2287:their 2273:kwami 2128:kwami 1970:kwami 1949:p. 40 1912:Disp. 1898:otor 1849:WP:OR 1811:Note: 1786:WP:OR 1663:Note: 1618:Slash 1579:kwami 1546:kwami 1514:kwami 1472:kwami 1366:kwami 1329:kwami 1276:oat. 1210:style 1206:facts 1086:kwami 987:Note 951:sword 947:horse 862:style 858:facts 773:WP:RM 427:from 425:moved 112:Ships 70:Ships 3648:talk 3593:talk 3578:talk 3547:talk 3521:talk 3499:talk 3476:Tony 3465:talk 3461:Shem 3373:talk 3344:talk 3340:Shem 3329:talk 3303:talk 3299:Shem 3285:talk 3253:talk 3228:talk 3196:Tony 3156:talk 3137:talk 3105:will 3091:talk 3055:talk 3041:and 3026:talk 3012:talk 2994:talk 2919:talk 2901:talk 2897:Shem 2879:talk 2861:talk 2835:talk 2820:talk 2782:talk 2751:talk 2747:Shem 2737:talk 2716:talk 2712:Shem 2682:talk 2678:Jerm 2629:talk 2614:talk 2599:talk 2544:talk 2529:talk 2510:talk 2494:talk 2474:talk 2470:DPdH 2451:talk 2437:talk 2382:talk 2362:talk 2344:talk 2311:talk 2277:talk 2239:talk 2221:talk 2183:talk 2179:Shem 2173:and 2149:TREK 2132:talk 2068:Life 2001:talk 1974:talk 1937:oat 1862:talk 1858:Shem 1831:talk 1788:. - 1767:talk 1763:Shem 1753:and 1741:talk 1707:talk 1703:Shem 1683:talk 1644:TREK 1613:Red 1604:HDML 1583:talk 1550:talk 1518:talk 1476:talk 1448:. - 1427:talk 1423:Shem 1409:talk 1370:talk 1333:talk 1318:talk 1314:Shem 1300:TREK 1282:talk 1278:Shem 1232:talk 1228:Shem 1145:Dido 1128:talk 1112:Per 1090:talk 1076:talk 1054:TREK 1038:talk 1005:talk 993:type 959:John 933:Dido 923:talk 919:Shem 915:Dido 893:talk 874:talk 870:Shem 846:talk 820:~~~~ 787:talk 760:talk 756:Shem 750:and 641:talk 572:talk 552:talk 535:talk 531:DPdH 504:talk 482:talk 460:talk 439:was 95:Ship 3417:😼 3313:add 3273:not 3083:all 2945:😼 2849:Xxx 2411:. 2301:or 1993:MTB 1933:un 1856:. 1390:not 1343:own 1250:QED 943:man 917:". 868:. 563:etc 431:to 3662:: 3650:) 3639:66 3613:. 3595:) 3580:) 3549:) 3523:) 3515:. 3501:) 3467:) 3459:. 3450:). 3447:, 3444:, 3441:, 3438:, 3405:— 3399:, 3375:) 3346:) 3331:) 3305:) 3297:. 3287:) 3255:) 3230:) 3158:) 3139:) 3093:) 3057:) 3028:) 3014:) 2996:) 2933:— 2921:) 2903:) 2881:) 2863:) 2855:. 2837:) 2822:) 2806:, 2802:, 2784:) 2753:) 2739:) 2718:) 2694:→ 2684:) 2669:. 2650:. 2631:) 2616:) 2601:) 2546:) 2531:) 2512:) 2496:) 2476:) 2453:) 2439:) 2384:) 2376:— 2364:) 2346:) 2313:) 2279:) 2241:) 2223:) 2185:) 2134:) 2003:) 1995:). 1976:) 1864:) 1833:) 1819:. 1769:) 1761:. 1743:) 1735:. 1727:, 1723:, 1719:, 1709:) 1701:. 1685:) 1671:. 1585:) 1552:) 1520:) 1478:) 1429:) 1411:) 1372:) 1335:) 1320:) 1284:) 1252:. 1234:) 1130:) 1116:. 1092:) 1078:) 1040:) 1007:) 969:, 965:, 961:, 953:, 949:, 945:, 925:) 895:) 876:) 848:) 811:or 789:) 762:) 754:. 746:, 742:, 730:, 726:, 722:, 718:, 703:→ 694:→ 685:→ 674:→ 665:→ 654:→ 643:) 599:. 574:) 554:) 537:) 506:) 484:) 462:) 326:/ 166:/ 162:/ 158:/ 154:: 3646:( 3591:( 3576:( 3545:( 3519:( 3497:( 3463:( 3415:¢ 3412:☏ 3371:( 3342:( 3327:( 3301:( 3283:( 3251:( 3226:( 3154:( 3135:( 3089:( 3053:( 3024:( 3010:( 2992:( 2943:¢ 2940:☏ 2917:( 2899:( 2877:( 2859:( 2833:( 2818:( 2780:( 2749:( 2735:( 2714:( 2680:( 2675:) 2671:( 2627:( 2612:( 2597:( 2542:( 2527:( 2508:( 2492:( 2472:( 2449:( 2435:( 2380:( 2360:( 2342:( 2309:( 2275:( 2237:( 2219:( 2181:( 2130:( 2066:— 1999:( 1972:( 1939:A 1935:B 1931:G 1904:L 1900:G 1896:M 1860:( 1829:( 1765:( 1739:( 1705:( 1681:( 1632:- 1597:- 1581:( 1548:( 1516:( 1474:( 1462:` 1425:( 1407:( 1368:( 1331:( 1316:( 1280:( 1274:B 1270:b 1245:" 1230:( 1187:. 1175:. 1164:. 1162:" 1154:" 1126:( 1088:( 1074:( 1036:( 1003:( 935:? 921:( 891:( 872:( 844:( 831:. 785:( 758:( 639:( 628:) 624:( 570:( 550:( 533:( 502:( 480:( 458:( 443:. 200:. 109:. 53:: 20:)

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