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that Roy Thomas decided to combine the characters before #12 - the fact that she becomes blonde in #8 seems to have no other explanation, but I'm not sure that matters much and as you write there is as yet no definitive source on when or why these decisions were made. As it stands now the article lays out the facts in a (hopefully) impartial way, making it clear when each parts of or change to the character were intro'd, so a reasonable reader can make their own judgments.
530:#1, but publishing that newspaper strip proposal today would not make the newer comic his “first appearance”. 2. That this is the first time that she is identified as “Barbara Morse” and so starts to gain significant traits of the character. This too is flawed for several reasons. First she appears as “Barbara” in earlier stories so the exact point where Thomas and co. decided to combine these characters is unclear. Also the “Doctor Barbara Morse” in
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760:"powers and abilities" - this is the only part of the article that I left untouched. I'm not a fan of the section honestly, but I didnt want to unilaterally junk it as I'm not familiar with current attitudes around here about that kinda stuff. I certainly was not going to try and find citations for all of it! if you think it's dodgy then please get rid of it.
764:
it is important to include these points though and I feel that the article would be missing something without them. One solution I guess would be to just rephrase the sentences so that rather than being explained the facts suggest themselves, though that seems like a weaselly way out to me (and I'm sure theres some WP: written policy against it somewhere)
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I'm not familiar with
Jessica Jones (the intro to her article cited very recent comics, which I've never read), so I'll have to recuse myself there. Certainly Goodwin as editor of the one story with Morse in her Huntress persona is on the same level as Mort Weisinger's involvement with the creations
763:
On the "Huntress" and "WCA" points - is it really necessary to find citations for such obvious inferences? I don't see that these interpretation could be controversial. I also don't know of any third party articles on this character, so finding a way to source this stuff could be impossible. I think
753:
As above I'll defer to you, though I'll reiterate that I'm uncomfortable with giving just two people credit for creating this character. The girl in Conway and Smith's story has none of the characteristics of
Mockingbird as she exists today (besides her gender); In fact she is actively dissimilar in
749:
I just used history as that is what I though best described the content. "Publication history" suggests a narrow focus, which I don't think is justified. I also don't want someone to think that the page needs a "fictional character biography" - I hate those things. I respect your superior experience
641:
Yes redirects is the way - we tend to name the character as they are best known and only lapse back to their actual name if it is a grey area. Anyway it is always open for debate if anyone feels strongly about it (so it isn't set in stone) although it'd be best to do as a move request to open it out
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For the same reasons I have changed the way that “creator” credits are assigned for the character. A survey of her history clearly indicates that this is a character who has been “developed” over long periods rather than “created” at a single definable point. Over the years significant contributions
876:
I should point out though that I don't think
Grayson is a perfect parallel with Mockingbird anyway. It is clear from Gruenwald's comments in MTU #95 that the basic concept of Mockingbird was created separately years earlier and (as seems to be a common occurrence with this character) Morse was just
771:
Funny you should suggest that I contact CSBG, I actually e-mailed Brian Cronin about the page after I did the first big edit. But I suggested that it was good material for his "Foundation Deep" column (about characters with complex, retcon-filled backstories) rather than Urban
Legends. We'll see if
719:
I also agree about the first appearance (and so does Marvel so my agreement does count for much when faced with that!) - I've skimmed through the issues and that is indeed the character. However, there seems to be a story here that has to be winkled out - it seems like Wein/Adams might have created
699:
So it is shaping up nicely - my changes address the first couple of points (they are there more as an explanation for my edits) and it is the last two that are problematic and need addressing. Other than those a quick run through shows this is a hair away from getting a B - when those are addressed
971:
Well, we could change the wording from "dropped" to "not followed up on," if you like but, as for a "source..." we're not going to list every single appearance the character has made since in order to validate a fact (not original research) that the psychic abilities were never mentioned again by
929:
Gerry Conway's original ideas were dropped. Subsequent creators developed her to such a degree that she is unrecognisable as this earlier figure. And no later story makes reference to any psychic abilities. All of that is fact and can easily be seen by reading through the article and checking the
813:
Not really. If one of those creators had actually come up with the
Superman concept, while Siegel and Shuster had just debuted a newspaper reporter character who didnt even resemble Clark Kent, then the situation would be analogous. Or to put it another way - do you think that Stan Lee and Steve
767:
On your final point - I honestly cant see any merit to the idea that Wein and Adams really created this character. There is no way that Conway intended for his character to be Wein's "Barbara Morse". The speech pattern, appearance and hint of psychic powers are just too way off. Its very possible
872:
article but it seems to succesfully avoid having to name any "creators" for the Dick
Grayson version, which is what I'm suggesting we do here as well). You would hardly credit Kane, Finger and Sprang as creators of Nightwing would you? (I think I may have actually seen a "created by Wolfman and
867:
Hmm I suspect that we are talking in circles here and are unlikely to convince each other, but I'll try and tackle a few of your points anyway. The
Phantom Zone, Fortress, etc are separate, supporting concepts around Superman - it seems like they are not comparable to the various evolutions of
926:"Whatever writer Gerry Conway’s original ideas were for this character, subsequent creators developed her to such a degree that she is unrecognisable as this earlier figure. In particular, no later story makes reference to any psychic abilities that these quotes might describe."
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on
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There are a couple of places that I feel need a source to stop it from appearing as unsourced opinion/speculation - the dropping of the
Huntress alias because it was in heavy use at DC and the W.C.A acronym being chosen as a wink towards the West Coast
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Finally, the superherobox only allows for “creators” to be listed so I found it necessary to list all the names above, even though - as I’ve said - I think it is more appropriate to say that the character has been “developed” rather than “created”.
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the character and she was introduced in
Astonishing Tales #6 to lay the groundwork for the appearance in AT #12. No way I can prove that at the moment but it is worth investigating - I'd suggest punting it over to Comic Book Legends Revealed
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Yeah but "Mockingbird" is, by far I would say, what the character is best known as. I guess redirects for "Bobbi Morse", "Agent19" and "Huntress (Marvel Comics)" ("Barbara Morse" redirects here already) could be created though.
669:
The creators credit does go to those who actually created the character, we can't go adding credits into the infobox for people who've helped develop the character as this would get out of hand and very quickly verge into
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1. That it is the appearance that was created first. This may be true as the “Man-Thing!” story in that issue was actually produced much earlier then the rest of the issue as it was intended for the unpublished version of
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I added a partial bibliography and it was promptly deleted because it was "incomplete and unnecessary". While I have to agree that it was incomplete, I think it would be extremely useful to both collectors and casual
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I changed the sentence that said that "October 12th" was the date
Mockingbird miscarried. Its is actually the date they guessed that their child would have been born. So I've added a couple sentences to reflect that.
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though as it sorts out all the formatting for you, plus it really helps standardise how it appears (and allows any adjustments to be made centrally - even just updating this article by hand would be a pain).
723:
along the lines of "Was Marvel's Mockingbird created by Wein/Adams or Conway/Smith?" If you don't want to then I'd be up for it (I have a few points that need clarifying and that seems the best way). (
526:#2. It should not matter though as generally the first published appearance is what is meant by “first appearance”. For instance Superman may have been a newspaper strip proposal before he appeared in
848:
from Robin into Nightwing belong in the creator slot in his infobox? That's definitely the same thing as the guys who turned Huntress into Mockingbird (and that was done only because DC had debuted
868:
Mockingbird we are dealing with here. The Dick Grayson example is better - if the wiki article was about "Nightwing" then wouldn't Wolfman and Perez merit some mention as creators? (there is a
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge (XXG) policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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Brings up a point, that the article is called "Mockingbird (Marvel Comics)," rather than "Barbara Morse" or something along that line which is what that long list of creators applies to. --
754:
major ways!. Seems like we are trying to fix a square peg into a round hole here. Maybe filling in the creator box with "N/A see pub history" or something like that is more appropriate?
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585:(who created the Mockingbird persona and costume). It is arguable that later creators also made significant contributions, though I would maintain that after Grant and Gruenwald’s
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I only noticed that those citation shortcut existed as I was finishing up my edit. I didnt have the heart to go back and rejig each one. Thanks for doing it for the links though!
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As such it is clear in these early years the character was in constant state of development and so, although she looks and acts very differently than she would later,
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of the Phantom Zone, Kandor, the Arctic-located Fortress of Solitude and so much more of the Superman mythos, and probably a lower level. And does whoever turned
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First off the first appearance: as the article points out the character that eventually becomes Mockingbird appears for the first time, albeit unrecognizably, in
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I'll do a more thorough run through and flag any minor points that might need a source and then once those are addressed we can start on the climb towards GA!! (
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Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts Emperor, feedback is always good and its nice to know that your work gets noticed. To address your points:
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Just to head off any possible complaints about the changes I made to the first appearance and creator credits in the article here is some of my reasoning:
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during the intervening period in which Marvel didn't use Bobbi, while at the age of about 25 Grayson just looked ridiculous in his original costume). --
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I could have sworn her death was completely an accident. As in they were just running from Mephisto's fireballs and whammo, she got one in the back.
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534:#12 is hardly the finished version of the character, as she has a ways to develop before becoming the “Mockingbird” we recognise her today.
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Some of those people you had included would be analogous to putting John Byrne (if not Mort Weisinger, Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan,
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That's how I recall it. Of course, that's hardly an accident! Mephisto *was* trying to kill them, and just got a lucky shot in.
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able" as the original, then we are on solid, level ground. If not, its an evaluative statement, and not allowed (as per
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Wait... the word "dropped" isn't even used (which completely invalidates your argument since it now "implies" nothing).
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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791:...I'll reiterate that I'm uncomfortable with giving just two people credit for creating this character.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under
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Good call on using full comics citations, I suspect your life would be made easier by using
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Good work - if only all articles could be kicked up a notch like this. A few things:
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Exactly. If you have sources that explicitly states the "Gerry Conway's ideas were
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/adrianne-palicki-nick-blood-star-816692
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http://marvel.com/news/tv/24095/declassifying_marvels_agents_of_shield_aftershocks
488:#6 last night, and Bobbi Morse, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. was nowhere to be found. --
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http://collider.com/comic-con-marvel-tv-aka-jessica-jones-hulk-cloak-and-dagger/
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589:#95 she is pretty much the same character as she is today.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This page has absolutely nothing about Bobbi joining the
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Perez" credit in an early appearance by the character!)
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518:#12 seems to be based on two misapprehensions –
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