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I believe this section requires a bit of an overhaul, as the content doesn't seem necessarily conclusive to really relating to magic items in D&D. The only real piece of information in this currently is the fact that the Ioun Stones are inspired by Jack Vance. While I think this is an interesting
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Well while you guys have a tantrum about whether or not this page belongs here, I came here to actually learn about the topic, so it had value to me at least. Anyway I've been looking at D&D4E and it *appears* to me that scrolls have vanished. Is this true or did I misread it? If so, this article
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Gavin by that logic we shouldn't have an article on
Christianity since its an abstract thing, but we could have one on each church building. Magic items as a whole are very important in-game, unfortunately you are not personally aware of this. The article is meant to assist you get to know this. It
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I'm having difficulty understanding why abstract concepts couldn't be as notable as the non-abstract. I suppose magic items are abstract in the sense that clothes are abstract. But clothes deserve discussion for their general qualities and contributions to human culture. As magic items are dealt with
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The point I am making is that they are not used per se. I don't see how you can establish notability for something that does not exist, either in the real-world or the fictional world. Unless this is a notable category (I have never seen such a thing), I suspect it will not be possible to demonstrate
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I am still not sure why this topic can be the subject of a stand alone article. If I understand correctly, there is no such thing as a Magic item in
Dungeons and Dragons per se; it is a sub-category of fictional artifacts. If it is just a sub-category, what chance are there of establishing notability
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the claim that the bag of holding is used in academia, both symbolic and otherwise, and provided a number of sources which do that. I have removed
Benjamin Woo's example, but kept his article as a source for the use. I have no strong opinion either way, if the example should be additionally included
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Thanks, I got confused for a bit there. In any case, I still see the Woo reference as an unnecessary tangent that probably got shoehorned in to satisfy some editor's social justice obsession. Also, Mizer's dissertation doesn't support the claim that the Bag of
Holding has "symbolic meaning and uses"
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so that they can be specifically addressed? I believe the in-universe tag is also inappropriate, the article does not describe "a work or element of fiction in a primarily in-universe style", it contains numerous references to game mechanics such as attack rolls and AC and real world literature such
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My view is that the sources cited are not substantial enough to provide evidence of notability, because they only make a passing acknowledgement of the existence of Magic items. The consensus view is that not only do you need context, analysis, commentary or criticism from reliable secondary sources
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Actually, I can see how someone not familiar with the subject who hasn't read this article could confuse the two. However, this article is an easy read that can give a viewer a simple understanding that would even allow that novice individual to know the difference between the two. Seems like only
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Within the context of the D&D game rules, it is essentially a core topic and hence of high notability to the system. One of the main purposes and rewards of the game is the collection of magic items. Artifacts have a particular meaning in D&D as a sub-category of magic items, albeit the most
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I have slightly reworded the sentence. What kind of explanation are you thinking of? For me it seems relatively obvious if I am taking the preceding sentence into account (that's why I have combined them now): The bag of holding has gained enough prominence that it is used as a metaphor in academic
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I somewhat agree with the cruftiness in the sense that the examples could use tightening up. They appear to have been merged here from separate articles, but excess detail was retained. Take Ioun stones, for example: this item could probably be summarized in a single paragraph that demonstrates the
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The difference is that
Mythology is a subject matter all of its own. As this article explains "magical items are sub-divided into several categories". This article would be similar to having articles on Potions (Dungeons & Dragons) or Rings (Dungeons & Dragons). I think this article proves
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is, and they are almost just as important a part to a character's rules and statistics. An article on them is important to having a well-rounded knowledge of D&D, although the article does need quite a bit of improvement to more fully provide such knowledge. Also, as I said above, two reliable
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In truth, Gavin, the fictional artifacts are a sub-category of magic items in general, and magic items most certainly are used in the game, much more than artifacts. Additionally, there are already two reliable secondary sources in the article. It certainly needs more, but that it needs additional
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I plan on changing the title of the section to something more akin to "Inspiration" or "Sources", and listing a variety of different magic items that consistently appear in the game and their roots in other works. For example, a section where we list magic items inspired by other fantasy stories
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ment bonus" is a game mechanics term introduced in 3rd edition, it's a bonus applied when calculating the results of certain dice rolls, the 3.x edition rules generally classify most bonuses as belonging to one of several types, and prohibit multiple bonuses of the same type from stacking with
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This section is probably in most need of cleanup. This point was brought up in the AFD; it makes it seem like 3E and 4E are the only editions worth discussing in terms of magic items in the game. I suggest cutting down on some of the gamecrufty aspects of this section, thus reducing the heavy
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I disagree that notability has been established. The source cited are trivial, and only mention Magic items in passing by acknowledging their existence & function within the game. They don't provide any information about their creation, development or any context as fictional elements.
1750:(Such as the Ioun Stones from Vance, the Hand/Eye of Vecna from Moorecock, Sword of Warning from Tolkien, etc.), and items inspired by mythology/folktale (Winged Sandals from Greek, Flying Carpet from 1001 Arabian Nights, etc.). If anyone has ideas/feedback, please let me know! -Vthomp
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because I believe these were sources they found & have used in a few articles. While I don't have access to the sources, Daranios has been reliable in terms of citing academic sources in other articles that I've been able to verify so I'm assuming good faith on this inclusion.
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Thanks! It's all good, I did not intend to come over as cross. I just would not know how to explain the matter better. I forgot to mention to your previous remark: I don't think this has been actually discussed before, but there was editorial disagreement as can be seen in
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I was not aware this had been discussed before. I tagged the sentence without removing it, because it has one citation, and felt that it should be confirmed before removal. That said, I don't think the one reference is enough to justify its inclusion. It sounds like the
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This was all discussed in the recent AfD and community consensus was not only keep, but that notability was not the issue with the sources. Improvement can be done but notability was discussed. The community is moving forward on this. Thank you for your concern.
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tag may be appropriate, however if it is used, I would prefer it if the tag was placed in the relevant section or sections instead of at the top of the page in order to make it easier for other editors to find and correct the problematic statements. --
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If the majority here should think otherwise, I think when removing the passage the source should be kept anyway, because it at the very least supports the preceding statement "academics have noted that the bag of holding also has symbolic meaning".
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the point that "articles should not be split and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each split normally lowering the level of notability". I think this is an example of that boundry being crossed, and we are now into
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Personally, I think the passage should be kept, as it shows that something as frivolous as a fictitious item in a game has become so widely know in this instance that it is used to explain something as serious as racism. Also, in the
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recentism emphasis, and introducing some discussion of how magic items worked in OD&D, BD&D, 1E AD&D, and 2E AD&D. Anyone want to give that a start? This section, as it is, was initially cut and pasted from
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was shoehorned into the topic—I mean, the comparison doesn't seem strong enough without further expanding the explanation. The correlation seems tenuous to this article's main topic. Perhaps the inline template
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972:, but that is not the same as being notable or warranting a stand alone article, which is the point I was making. Magic items are already categorised, and you are probably aware of the duplication between
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Thanks for spotting this. Looking at it again, as best I can tell Mizer states the importance for players, but indeed no metaphoric use. I don't remember if I've taken that over from an old version of
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That debate seems to pretty much be over with. Anyway, if you can find more info (was the concept of a magic scroll entirely removed from the game, or are they just rarer?) then feel free to post. :)
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notability for Magic item (Dungeons & Dragons), anymore than you could demostrate notability for say, Magic item (Lord of the Rings) or Magic item (Harry Potter) or Magic item (Bewitched). --
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Errr, it definitely needs fancruft, and probably gameguide too. Frankly I'd be concerned that in its current state it's arguably copyvio, because the OGL and the GFDL are not compatible AFAIK.
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No, Gavin. I can see how someone not familiar with the subject matter can make such an assumption, but the category (which you've just linked to) and this article are two separate entities.
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eachother on the same roll. 4e has similar bonus stacking rules, but I'm not sure if that specific term is part of the 4e rules lexicon. AFAIK describing, say, a +5 sword as having a "+5 en
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Ritual scrolls are consumable items which allow rituals to be performed in half the usual time without a ritual book. I'm not aware of any other scroll types which have made it into 4e. --
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842:(fixed indents) Magic items do exist in the fictional world, and they are used in the fictional world. In fact, magic items are used in the game more than even famous monsters like
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I plan on adding some stuff about how items are handled in 5th edition D&D, namely the introduction of the concept of Item Rarity, the various types of items introduced, etc.
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ment bonus" is only correct in 3.x edition and maybe 4th edition ("+5 sword" or "sword, +5" are correct terminology in all editions). I've done soe rephrasing for clarity. --
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I agree, it seems like the piece isn't really relevant to the bag of holding. More like it was just used as a trivial mention to talk about something completely unrelated.
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ment with a +5 bonus" would be correct terminology in all editions because the +5 bonus is a magical property of a magic item, but I think descring it as having a "+5 en
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Sounds fine by me. I wouldn't want to eliminate mention of ioun stones completely, but a sentence or two would likely suffice, mixed in with other examples.
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as a whole in D&D, they have setting and rules-specific information that needn't be repeated on every separate article on archetype magic items.—
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publishing history and universal features of all wondrous items, rather than delving into the specific mechanics of Ioun stones as a singular item.—
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I propose that the following cleanup templates be appended to this article to alert other editors that the following issues need to be addressed:
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It definitely doesn't need the gameguide tag. That tag is intended to tag video game related articles which include content discouraged by the
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ment", as a noun, refers to an item's magical power and properties, and, as a verb, refers to the process of making an object magical. "En
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being added to this page, though, to indicate that cleanup is needed of the "Overview of magic items by edition" section. I will add
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I disagree with the notability (the recent AfD touched on it a bit too and keep was keen) and fancruft, the rest seems warranted.
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Understand that I'm not trying to be difficult if I come across that way. I was waiting for further replies; I'll swap out
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the game. So also looking at the question if this is an encyclopedic subject, this passage in my opinion has some value.
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Agree with Hooper; article already has two third-party and reliable books cited, so notability is established, although
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If there is confusion on this issue, I think this speaks to the need to clarify this article. To me, this article is to
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concept. No player plays with a Magic item called a Magic item. Surely it would be better to deal with Magic items as a
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Agreed that it's in need of cleanup, but unfortunately I don't really have time right now to do much with it. -
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magic items must be important to the game. But the category itself can't be notable surely. It is afterall, an
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It has been disputed in the past, if the passage where the bag of holding is used as a metaphor for
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would be unwarranted because it relates to trivia sections, which this does not include. I
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outside D&D; all it does is discuss the item as it relates to accurate worldbuilding.
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In answer to Hooper, what I am saying is you don't have to be an expert to realise that
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tidbit, I think this section needs to be greatly expanded upon and perhaps rebranded.
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I agree that this looks much more appropriate and on-topic than the previous version.
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tis verily a group of said specific items and a significant plot element...Cheers,
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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
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proposing in order to meet the general held view that topics should meet the
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https://gizmodo.com/the-20-weirdest-dungeons-dragons-magical-items-1596482305
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or messed this up myself. I will look for appropriate sources another time.
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1071:. Perhaps we should seek some third party opinion to discuss this issue? --
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980:. What I am suggesting is that we merge this article into the category. --
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as Dragon
Magazine, Jabberwocky and Rhialto the Marvellous, the broader
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with an imperative to improve it, so let's get on to the improving, no?
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1941:, nor has it any negative connotations for the bag of holding itself.
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If someone were so inclined it could be used to improve the article.
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momentarily; I believe that the other tags need further discussion. -
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seems to have quite a bit of meta-info about use of magic items in
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Take a deep breath... relax... ahhhh. :) This article was given a
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It is an analogy that clearly makes some people uncomfortable.
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should mention that as it is a major change to game mechanics.
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this article with an axe to grind would say they are the same.
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Start-Class
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Looting the Dungeon: The Quest for the Genre Fantasy Mega-Text
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are. In D&D, magic items are defined just as much as any
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Dungeons & Dragons articles needing improved references
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secondary sources have already been added to the article. -
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for this topic if nobody uses a Magic item in a game? --
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Indeed so it seems. However, that should neither be
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and it is probable that this will never be the case;
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1583:12:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
1067:is virtually the same as
789:issue. In fact, I'll add
709:; for its talk page, see
656:; for its talk page, see
603:; for its talk page, see
550:; for its talk page, see
380:
191:
178:
156:
87:
59:
22:Skip to table of contents
2283:Thank you for the ping,
2000:20:23, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
1985:18:54, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
1951:15:25, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
1933:11:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
1918:10:50, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
1687:08:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
1560:05:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
466:, 24 December 2008, see
21:
1467:. What improvements is
1281:in universe perspective
785:citations and is not a
1990:That might just work.
898:I can understand that
299:Companions of the Hall
175:
134:Dungeons & Dragons
124:Dungeons & Dragons
72:Dungeons & Dragons
41:This article is rated
1848:. Student editor(s):
1741:The "Example" Section
1695:5th Edition Item Info
1259:of material from the
976:which is the same as
405:Guild of Copy Editors
399:Guild of Copy Editors
375:Guild of Copy Editors
185:references department
174:
45:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
697:. Its contents were
693:with a consensus to
644:. Its contents were
640:with a consensus to
591:. Its contents were
587:with a consensus to
538:. Its contents were
534:with a consensus to
456:, 19 July 2018, see
396:by a member of the
187:may be able to help.
2293:CJDOS, Sheridan, OR
2082:the article history
2060:CJDOS, Sheridan, OR
1977:CJDOS, Sheridan, OR
1898:deletion discussion
1790:(RPGs in general?).
1097:. Both are needed.—
1049:Sounds good, BOZ. -
274:Swords & Spells
181:citation guidelines
2264:Looks good to me.
1886:explicitely tagged
1846:on the course page
1669:ment" or being "en
1125:Category:Mythology
681:was nominated for
628:was nominated for
575:was nominated for
522:was nominated for
176:
47:content assessment
1776:Secondary Sources
1772:
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1477:Gavin Collins
1475:guideline? --
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1150:territory. --
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2238:Allright, I
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2114:edit summary
2111:
1992:8.37.179.254
1961:
1906:
1901:
1894:
1879:
1854:
1842:3 April 2020
1830:
1797:
1793:This thesis
1787:
1781:
1752:— Preceding
1748:
1744:
1727:8.37.179.254
1701:— Preceding
1698:
1679:Gordon Ecker
1674:
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532:19 July 2018
531:
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463:
454:No consensus
453:
397:
338:Dave Arneson
331:
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53:WikiProjects
2230:Sariel Xilo
2201:Sariel Xilo
2182:Sariel Xilo
2134:Sariel Xilo
2118:Sariel Xilo
2112:Typo in my
1725:Thank you!
1590:24.148.0.83
1575:59.101.9.56
1374:in-universe
1274:in universe
707:its history
691:3 July 2016
654:its history
638:3 July 2016
601:its history
548:its history
394:copy edited
43:Start-class
2330:Categories
1473:notability
1330:refimprove
1234:notability
1148:game guide
900:individual
882:powerful.—
794:refimprove
787:notability
720:AfD Debate
468:discussion
458:discussion
129:discussion
1850:VthompUWO
1804:(Thesis).
1758:VthompUWO
1707:VthompUWO
1364:synthesis
1354:technical
1257:synthesis
1250:synthesis
1121:Mythology
1015:"reading"
844:beholders
2285:Daranios
2260:Daranios
2245:Daranios
2211:Daranios
2176:Daranios
2172:Pinging
2086:Daranios
2022:Daranios
1943:Daranios
1910:Daranios
1862:PrimeBOT
1813:Daranios
1766:contribs
1754:unsigned
1715:contribs
1703:unsigned
1381:Drilnoth
1340:fancruft
1290:fancruft
1208:Drilnoth
1129:Drilnoth
1051:Drilnoth
1013:someone
970:Category
908:Category
904:abstract
861:Drilnoth
801:Drilnoth
776:contribs
766:Casliber
736:contribs
726:Casliber
683:deletion
630:deletion
577:deletion
524:deletion
444:deletion
303:Dark Sun
2268:Philroc
2232:, and
2226:Philroc
2197:Philroc
2143:Philroc
2052:Explain
1970:Explain
1788:D&D
1544:fiction
282:More...
210:history
161:on the
1902:beyond
1469:Hooper
1446:Hooper
1313:Hooper
1093:is to
1019:Hooper
999:Hooper
966:Hooper
952:Hooper
699:merged
646:merged
593:merged
540:merged
314:Verify
289:Update
183:. The
49:scale.
2234:CJDOS
2075:CJDOS
2046:with
2015:CJDOS
1890:CJDOS
1802:(PDF)
1675:hance
1671:chant
1667:chant
1662:hance
1658:chant
1347:could
1091:Fruit
701:into
695:merge
648:into
642:merge
595:into
589:merge
542:into
536:merge
327:Other
264:Stubs
253:Merge
220:purge
215:watch
2297:talk
2274:talk
2249:talk
2215:talk
2199:and
2186:talk
2149:talk
2122:talk
2108:2023
2090:talk
2064:talk
2026:talk
1996:talk
1981:talk
1947:talk
1929:talk
1914:talk
1866:talk
1840:and
1817:talk
1762:talk
1731:talk
1711:talk
1683:talk
1648:talk
1633:talk
1608:talk
1594:talk
1579:talk
1556:talk
1533:fact
1507:talk
1481:talk
1450:talk
1431:talk
1416:talk
1401:talk
1385:talk
1369:and
1349:see
1317:talk
1301:talk
1263:and
1241:WP:N
1212:talk
1197:talk
1156:talk
1133:talk
1123:and
1104:talk
1077:talk
1055:talk
1041:talk
1033:Keep
1023:talk
1003:talk
986:talk
956:talk
936:talk
916:talk
889:talk
865:talk
848:drow
834:talk
820:talk
805:talk
770:talk
752:talk
730:talk
711:here
658:here
605:here
552:here
464:Keep
229:view
205:edit
153:High
1888:by
1860:by
1528:or
1523:syn
1412:BOZ
1396:RJH
1193:BOZ
1099:RJH
1089:as
1037:BOZ
931:RJH
884:RJH
854:or
846:or
830:BOZ
685:.
632:.
579:.
526:.
2332::
2299:)
2291:—
2276:)
2251:)
2228:,
2217:)
2188:)
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2124:)
2092:)
2066:)
2055:}}
2049:{{
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2037:{{
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1998:)
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1967:{{
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