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interesting point i noted was that if you review scholarly references to the anglo-iraqi treaty of 1930, most scholars note that the 1932 "independence" was basically a sham - i.e. the
British domination continued since it had negotiated extensive rights in the 1930 treaty. In other words, the Iraq we are writing about did not change much as a result of its mandate status ending.
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Iraq (British
Mandate)" (only a portion of 3,770 hits) is probably much inferior to "British Mandate over Iraq" (3,820 hits), "British Mandate Iraq" (2,030 hits), "Iraq (British Mandate)" (2,490 hits), "Iraq Mandate" (1,840 hits). So, perhaps one of those titles could better represent this article per WP:COMMONNAME and avoid the confusion with "Kingdom of Iraq" (1932-1958).
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1585:. The previous discussions make it clear that the current title is well attested in reliable sources. The fact that it is legally inaccurate (if that claim can be properly sourced, remembering that our own opinions don't qualify as reliable sources) is an interesting factoid that can be included in the article lede, but has little bearing on our title choice.
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760:, i'm not sure we are allowed to rely on primary sources for naming procedures. Knowledge's guidelines clearly asks to use secondary sources, since we are not real historians to interpretate original documents. Anyway, if you have in mind "Kingdom of Iraq (British Mandate)" to relate to the 1921-1932 entity, i could also live with that.
901:@Once, I'm not really ok with this. Apparently, you are not waiting for reply and consensus, but prefer to go per your own POV. First of all, do you have a good source for "Kingdom of Iraq (Mandate administration)"? is it WP:COMMONNAME? And why did you rename "Kingdom of Iraq" into the new title in violation of WP:DASH?
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wp:bebold and wp:snowball don't go for discussed topics - 2 days of wikibreak is quiet rush to loose your patience. Regarding the titles i think i would better keep "Kingdom of Iraq" as is, while changing this one to "Iraq (British
Mandate)". Let's do it the easy way - if you give me a couple of good
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I think I know why this will suprise you - because technically the
Kingdom of Iraq operated as a League of Nations mandate between 1921-32. But another subtle point you should be aware of is that it did NOT operate under the "Mandate for Mesopotamia" - that plan was dropped. What happened legally was
832:
After checking the term "Kingdom of Iraq" in relation to WP:COMMONNAME, i found it has 3,770 hits. Considering that the independent kingdom lasted 1932-1958 (26 years), while dependency lasted just 11-12 years, those results are probably mostly referring to post-1932 entity. Hence, using "Kingdom of
738:
doesn't say that the "Kingdom of Iraq" was created but actually "the 1921 Conference of Cairo created the
British-backed Kingdom of Iraq. In 1932, Iraq was admitted to the League of Nations, thus ending the British Mandate". It clearly means there was a British Mandate, the question is only what was
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Hi
Greyshark, right - how would you like to go about this? Do you want to give me a list of the statements you are disputing? I can then provide the sources. Otherwise, of you give me more detail on your understanding with sources, that would help too. For starters, here's a large number of sources
654:
Ok, i will wait for a couple of days - if i haven't heard otherwise i will then revert. For the avoidance of doubt, I do not accept your proposal. The way it was structured before you reverted was much more appropriate - an article on
Kingdom of Iraq from 1921-58, split into sections pre and post
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says the
Kingdom of Iraq lasted from August 1921 to 1958 - from 1921 to 1932 the Kingdom was semi-independent, and in 1932 gained full independence. There was a British mandate proposed in 1920, but it was dropped due to the Iraqi revolt of 1920. Calling an article "Mandatory Iraq" would just be
940:, as you did when you didn't hear from me a couple of weeks ago. I strongly believe Kingdom of Iraq is the commonname for the entity created in 1921 - just flick through a handful of the 57,000 hits and you'll see that at least half related to the mandate era. Should we take this to RfC or 3O?
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Regarding "Kingdom of Iraq (British
Mandate)" - i'm a little uneasy with your suggestion to disambiguate "Kingdom of Iraq". I think it will make more confusion than improvement. Seems to me better leave the "Kingdom of Iraq" as is, and put a hatnote at both articles, if we decide to stick with
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This could well be true, i will check your sources. Anyway, everywhere i read - i see Iraq/Mesopotamia mentioned as part of the
British Empire or a mandated tarritory until 1932. Indeed, if you are right, we might solve our dispute by simply renaming "Mandatory Mesopotamia" (1920-1932) into
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Separately, i agree that we should avoid disambiguation. I have spent some time looking at how the serious history books structure the history of iraq - from what i can see (albeit this is not scientific), most consider the 1921-58 period, and subdivide it into 1921-32 and 1932-58. Another
1006:
Checking the sources, i'm tending to close the dispute with those perhaps not the best possible (some concern over WP:COMMONNAME), but still reasonable titles. Let's change the articles accordingly, and perhaps in the future make an official rename request if any of us feels to change the
1237:
This article is not a "subarticle" of Kingdom of Iraq, the proposal was only for minor change of the article's title, not its scope. If somebody (Srnec) would like to change its scope to become "subarticle of Kingdom of Iraq". Let's make another vote here, else the status quo
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1098:– I propose to change the page title to "Mandatory Iraq" (similar to Mandatory Palestine), but keep "Kingdom of Iraq (Mandate administration)" as a bold title in the lead. The reason is WP:COMMONNAME, as for example Mandatory Iraq has 173 results in google books
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I shall revert most of your edits - the Kingdom of Iraq was not declared until 1932 (preceded by Mandate Mesopotamia 1920-1932); Same as the Kingdom of Transjordan was not announced until 1946 (preceded by Emirate of Transjordan 1928-1946; Mandatory Palestine
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Iraq was never under British Mandate, the previous rename procedure was my apparent mistake (though i meant good). I herewith propose to return to the previous title "Kingdom of Iraq (British Administration)", which is historically much more correct
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I agree with your analysis - as you say it is a question of commonname. The problem is that while I think that KoI is the common name, it is difficult to disaggregate the googlebooks hits to effectively analyse this name pre-1932.
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Comment. The search would be for "Kingdom of Iraq". The parenthetical, "Mandate administration", is just to give us a unique title between the two. A better disambiguation might be to use the dates for both of them.
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So in summary even though I was initially annoyed about your reverts this is a good compromise - as you say, we have a good record of civil discussions which lead to good improvements, and I enjoy working with you.
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727:, which includes your latest version. In my opinion your edits had completely changed the intention of this article about British protectorate entity in Iraq/Mesopotamia, thus i did split it into a separate one.
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Hopefully, we can work this out to the benefit of this article and without edit-warring. I must remind our good past experience in civil discussions and eventually consensuses reached.
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Although I prefer one article from 1921-58, I can see your point that the entities were not the same pre and post the end of the mandate. So I am ok with your compromise proposal of
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OK great - i'm pleased to say i've found some sources quoting an official 1922 proclamation using the term Kingdom of Iraq. And another that also refers to British Administration:
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Regarding the search for "Kingdom of Iraq", i did the search in google.books, but for some reason i got 3,770 results. Now, when doing the search i indeed get 57,000 hits. Strange.
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This article is highly confusing - it implies there was a state named the British Mandate for Mesopotamia between 1920 and 1932. This is not correct. What actually happened was:
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So the British mandate never existed in law, because the mandate document was dropped before being accepted by any authority. However, it can be argued that the mandate existed
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sources relating to Iraq during 1920s as "Kingdom of Iraq" under "British administration" i would be sutisfied, and with small correction of WP:DASH we can close the deal. OK?
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First off, the term "Mandatory" is used in reliable sources in just the way proposed: as a sort of synonym for "protectorate-like". After all, Britain did have an informal
1134:. There's no need to invent a new name with a parenthetical suffix "to give us a unique title between the two", because there's already a real unique name that we can use.
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First of all let me agree that indeed there are very little references to "Mandatory Mesopotamia", thus there is no question we should rename this page to some other title.
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Regarding your work on French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon, i saw nothing i disagree with, but i will have a better look next week perhaps, and try to help you there.
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On the other hand, there is also no question that there indeed was such an entity as Iraq under British Mandate, which existed from 1920/1921 until 1932 (see
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Yet, first i would like to emphasize that apparently the term "Kingdom of Iraq (British Mandate)" is little implemented to describe Iraq during 1920-1932:
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Following assignment of a mandate in April 1920 at San Remo, a DRAFT mandate for Mesopotamia was produced in late 1920 but it did not come in to force
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I have been bold and amended the titles - are you ok with this? If so, one of us will now need to fix the text and redirects to be consistent.
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independence. Your proposal "Mandatory Iraq" is a fringe term with less than 200 hits in google books, and only serves to confuse the issue.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
538:, that article is also confused - parts say it began in 1932 and others in 1921. I suggest that same structure as for Palestine is used:
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This article becomes an article about the document and negotiations (so, for example the countrybox on the right should be removed)
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of the monarchical period. It's a subarticle by default: it covers a period that is a subperiod of the other article's period.
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1563:– Iraq was never under mandate (the proposed mandate was scrapped), so the current title is wrong. Previous discussion is
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was treated by the League of Nations as a "mandated territory" from its establishment in 1921 until independence in 1932.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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I have spent some time on both these articles - not perfect but at least now not totally wrong! I will remove the tag.
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Following discussions at the 1919 Paris Peace conference, there were British plans to change the name to Iraq
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was made civil commissioner (Percy Cox had been moved to Persia, although returned to replace Wilson in 1920)
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PS - you're right re wp:dash. I'll change it if you're otherwise happy with that title?
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1437:- note that this is a proposal related to the one you have previously participated it.
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I am not an expert on this, but have noticed the mistake above whilst doing work on
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The Kindom of Iraq article becomes the article about the country from 1921 onwards.
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Returning to your original point for a moment, here's another source for you
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on the British mandate/protectorate (I am okay with the proposed title).
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is wrong, considering its a 2007 map for a country 70 years before that--
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Ok, thanks Greyshark, hope you had a good wikibreak. Was just following
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Following the March 1921 Cairo Conference, the Kingdom of Iraq under
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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wrong, unless it only covered the months from 1920 to August 1921.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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were signed and then ratified by the LoN. See for example here
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knocked the plans off course, and the mandate idea was dropped
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Third, please notice that i have created an article named
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That's odd - when i did the search for "Kingdom of Iraq"
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which show that the kingdom of Iraq was declared in 1921
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
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By the way, what do you think of my improvements to the
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began in 1921 as a British protectorate (not a mandate)
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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Your link on "kingdom of Iraq was declared in 1921"
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This article has been checked against the following
1526:. No further edits should be made to this section.
1298:. No further edits should be made to this section.
745:, while "British Mandate over Iraq" has 3,820 hits
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1642:. No further edits should be made to this section.
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791:. Are you going to make this a subarticle of
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397:the discussion
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487:The May 1920
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476:Arnold Wilson
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411:Iraq articles
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189:criterion met
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1367:
1360:
1359:
1353:
1346:
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1305:no consensus
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534:Having read
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306:
135:
87:
40:WikiProjects
1640:move review
1569:Oncenawhile
1524:move review
1493:move review
1433:Oncenawhile
1296:move review
1240:Greyshark09
1157:sub-article
1103:Greyshark09
1035:Oncenawhile
1021:Greyshark09
994:Oncenawhile
963:Greyshark09
947:Oncenawhile
924:Greyshark09
903:Greyshark09
889:Oncenawhile
875:Oncenawhile
851:Greyshark09
835:Greyshark09
812:Oncenawhile
766:Greyshark09
679:Oncenawhile
657:Oncenawhile
642:Greyshark09
627:Oncenawhile
604:Oncenawhile
579:Greyshark09
564:Oncenawhile
550:Oncenawhile
519:Oncenawhile
380:Iraq portal
176:Structure:
30:Start-class
1652:Categories
1608:WP:NATURAL
1533:not moved.
1312:HairedGirl
1009:status quo
1441:GreyShark
1425:Bobrayner
1386:GreyShark
1361:GreyShark
1347:GreyShark
1136:bobrayner
938:wp:bebold
810:article?
1340:de-facto
1320:contribs
1238:remains.
1015:and the
504:de facto
453:Jakezing
137:criteria
68:European
1612:Amakuru
1604:Andrewa
1587:Andrewa
1403:Comment
1380:Support
1197:mandate
1149:Support
1132:Support
444:the map
64:British
1600:Oppose
1583:Oppose
1537:Number
1458:Oppose
1409:Apteva
1316:(talk)
1307:. --)
1233:Period
1179:Apteva
1119:Apteva
720:etc.).
36:scale.
1466:Srnec
1448:dibra
1417:Srnec
1393:dibra
1368:dibra
1354:dibra
1310:Brown
1263:Srnec
1205:Srnec
1161:Srnec
1075:moved
1616:talk
1606:and
1602:per
1591:talk
1573:talk
1565:here
1470:talk
1267:talk
1259:part
1244:talk
1209:talk
1183:talk
1165:talk
1140:talk
1123:talk
1107:talk
1083:talk
1077:. --
1039:talk
1033:OK.
1025:talk
998:talk
992:OK?
967:talk
951:talk
928:talk
907:talk
893:talk
879:talk
855:talk
839:talk
816:talk
770:talk
683:talk
661:talk
646:talk
631:talk
608:talk
583:talk
568:talk
554:talk
523:talk
457:talk
402:Iraq
393:Iraq
352:Iraq
1632:.
1485:.
1318:• (
1253:It
1203:. —
1079:BDD
510:.
421:???
1654::
1618:)
1593:)
1575:)
1567:.
1559:→
1516:.
1472:)
1451:)
1429:,
1421:,
1413:,
1405:-
1396:)
1378:I
1371:)
1334:→
1288:.
1269:)
1255:is
1246:)
1211:)
1185:)
1167:)
1142:)
1125:)
1109:)
1094:→
1085:)
1041:)
1027:)
1019:).
1000:)
969:)
953:)
930:)
909:)
895:)
881:)
857:)
841:)
818:)
772:)
716:;
712:;
685:)
663:)
648:)
633:)
625:.
610:)
585:)
570:)
556:)
525:)
459:)
226:/
66:/
62::
1614:(
1589:(
1571:(
1547:7
1542:5
1468:(
1445:(
1435::
1431:@
1427::
1423:@
1419::
1415:@
1411::
1407:@
1390:(
1365:(
1351:(
1322:)
1265:(
1242:(
1207:(
1181:(
1163:(
1138:(
1121:(
1105:(
1081:(
1037:(
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768:(
681:(
659:(
644:(
629:(
606:(
581:(
566:(
552:(
521:(
455:(
429:.
315:.
100:.
42::
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